13 ms·

Changes to "key" parts of Windows 8 are coming

33 points by nealabq 13y ago

acturbo 13y ago
too late.
- jpdoctor 13y ago
  I agree. They might as well add the start button back in and start calling it an early release of windows 9. We've had exactly zero requests for Win8 on our product. The largest customers that we asked (and who get all the attention, frankly) told us they are sticking to the every-other-windows-release plan. And god help MS if they screw up on Win9.
- recoiledsnake 13y ago
  Too late? Windows 8 already sold 100 million licenses despite the slowdown in PC sales because of tablets, on par with Windows 7 at release. Meanwhile, Google does not release Chromebook numbers and web share stats show sales are much worse than even WindowsRT, yet we don't seem to hear how ChromeOS is a total failure.
  - rmk2 13y ago
    While Windows 8 total sales might be on-par with Windows 7 sales, the total number of devices is not. This essentially suggests a decline in overall (total) market share for Windows.
    - adventured 13y ago
      Do you have industry data that shows the difference between sales and total number of devices? Would like to see it if you have it.
    - cooldeal 13y ago
      Reference? StatCounter data seems to show the opposite of what you're stating.
    - illuminate 13y ago
      "While Windows 8 total sales might be on-par with Windows 7 sales, the total number of devices is not. This essentially suggests a decline in overall (total) market share for Windows." Or a shift away from desktop PCs, perhaps?
  - acturbo 13y ago
    Yes, too late for Windows 8. I worked at Microsoft, i know something about release cycles and sales cycles and basically, i can spot the BS and back peddling in the MS press releases because i sat in on enough meetings that drafted that nonsense. And actually, if Google Chromebook is a failure, that fact (i have no idea if it is or isn't a failure) does nothing to support your red herring comment. In case you can't follow that, I'll spell it out for you, accepting your alleged claim that a competing OS is failing (in this case, Chromebook) should, in fact, help sell more units of competing offers, including Windows 8. Yet, the Windows 8 numbers are still way, way off. Windows 8 is a complete and total mess on the desktop. Yes, i bought the upgrade (MS alumni discount), installed it, fought it for 2 frustrating weeks, and eventually flattened my drive back to Windows 7. You think i'm jumping to 8.1 anytime soon? Uh, no. I'm a developer and overall power user, so please spare me the "you were using it wrong" comments. Also, selling 100 million units of Windows 8 is considered a failure at MS.
    - cooldeal 13y ago
      >can spot the BS and back peddling in the MS press releases Perhaps you mean backpedaling? >Uh, no. I'm a developer and overall power user, so please spare me the "you were using it wrong" comments. Speak for yourself, I am a power user too and it took all of ten minutes to get used to Windows 8. Even a 3 year old kid doesn't seem to have trouble. http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=dlZgcAacIxU http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=d...
      - yuhong 13y ago
        For me it is not that difficult, but I am not saying that it is a better desktop interface than in Win7, and I can see how people with large monitors may find it a bit jarring.
        acturbo 13y ago
        yes, that's just part of the problem, and it is a big issue seeing as i have a 24" monitor. The crux of the problem is that there is no way to fully disengage from Metro. Yes, you can get to your old desktop and fine, there is no Start button (not ideal, but not the end of the world). This is fine until you use some of the built-in Windows apps/features that jolt you back into Metro mode. If i can run Windows 8 -exactly- like Windows 7, then there would be no issues. Side note, i actually like the Metro UI, it looks refreshing and interesting. However, it's simply unusable to people that are used to having 3-7 windows open/apps running at any given time. Power users, developers, designers, engineers, etc. ... people that use various apps to "produce" content will struggle with Windows 8. Now, if you're primarily a consumer of content, that's a different story and i can't speak to that on a desktop. Personally, I use my iPad to consume content and that's been a pleasant surprise.
- cpleppert 13y ago
  The big problem going forward is what to do about the metro/desktop app dichotomy. They work in totally different ways and essentially require two different interfaces in a single platform. Now that they created this they will essentially have to support both for the foreseeable future. I can't believe Microsoft didn't think through how they were going to improve windows incrementally instead of making a hail mary pass that essentially bet Windows(the brand not just the desktop OS) on a vision that touch screens would be everywhere for laptop/desktop users. I don't now how to interpret this comment from the article: "Reller admitted Microsoft hadn’t focused “all of its financial incentives behind the touch screen PCs that show off Windows 8 to best advantage,” the FT said." First of all, you can't force consumers to buy your products just using financial incentives for system builders. Second, this looks like classic microsoft of throwing money at the market and hoping to succeed eventually. It would have been a lot more flexible just to adapt windows phone to touch screens instead of going the other way and shoehorning windows into mobile devices with a totally different interface that now has to be supported on the desktop as well and dramatically increases the complexity for microsoft, its developers and users. People keep talking about how the start screen replaces the start menu and it is actually an improvement(even Microsoft claimed this); I think this is a rather strange argument as no one was clamoring for a new program launcher in every version of windows since 95! And even if it is an improvement in a very narrow aspect the weirdness of using a component designed for touch screens as the main launcher for a desktop environment can't be overcome.
- sixothree 13y ago
  And worse, Windows 8 itself will remain completely unchanged. Any fixes will be in the next os release.
greatergoodguy 13y ago
Microsoft is pointing the finger on everything but the actual product. The bigger issue is the poor usability of the product and the benefit of this product is poorly understood by both consumers and microsoft. What's interesting is the Windows 8 overall concept is pretty much the same as a year before Windows 8 was released. You had the metro interface, the desktop app, the lack of a start button... How could they not figure out solution to these issues after having ALL THAT TIME. "Reller reportedly admitted that Microsoft hadn’t done enough to close the knowledge gap by training staff in outlets selling Windows 8 machines or by educating customers in the run-up to last October's launch." "There also seems to be a hint Microsoft recognizes it slipped up by not doing enough to persuade PC makers to build hardware actually capable of using Metro’s UI, which is largely irrelevant on machines lacking touch screens."
- canthonytucci 13y ago
  >. You had the metro interface, the desktop app, the lack of a start button... How could they not figure out solution to these issues after having ALL THAT TIME. I don't get why people are so upset that the start button is gone. To launch a program I just hit the windows key and start typing the name. This is exactly what I did on windows 7 (though I never used it as my primary OS). The things that show up on the screen are somewhat different, but the result is identical. As a longtime Alfred user on the mac, the winkey+typing method feels quite natural and works well.
  - deleted 13y ago
    [deleted]
  - diminoten 13y ago
    I realize this isn't a common use-case but at work I was having to work in Windows 8 through a vSphere console window, and for some reason my windows key wasn't getting sent to the console, and it took me literally 10 minutes to get to where I needed to go (I forget specifically what I was doing). I was in stitches with laughter at how unintuitive it was.
  - deelowe 13y ago
727374 13y ago
I'm not by any means a MS Hater but here's my vent: Windows 8 is represents the worst of Microsoft - new products/features for the sake of "new". Every tech enthusiast relative I have has been very excited to get a win 8 computer and then has had the exact same reaction to the new OS - "how do I use this"? Why does MS feel the need to re-do a UI, which wasn't broken and force all it's users (many of whom aren't tech enthusiasts to learn something new). Please, just stick with Win 7 and improve it's actual components. E.g. the builtin search isn't as good as spotlight on my Mac. So fix search, but please leave the start button unchanged because it's not bad.
- dkl 13y ago
  Yesterday I was doing something and got a popup in Windows 8, which told me to "tap" to choose some option. I was a little amused but mostly annoyed. It just shows how deep they went to force me to use a tablet UI on a desktop computer, where I have a mouse and a screen that is not touch sensitive. I installed Classic Shell pretty soon after upgrading from Windows 7. It was either that or destroy my computer in frustration. I still get the odd "ooops, what key combo did I press that activated tablet mode!?!?!" It usually takes me a minute or two to get back to a "normal" situation (where I can see the windows on my desktop). I do have this very annoying bug, though: about once a month, the Z order gets completely messed up. Alt-tab doesn't go to the previous window and goes to "show the desktop". The only fix: logout and login again. Very frustrating.
- smacktoward 13y ago
  You're half right -- it does represent the worst of Microsoft, but not because of new-for-the-sake-of-new. It represents the worst of Microsoft because it's entirely designed around what Microsoft needs rather than what the user needs. Windows 8 is the way it is because of two things Microsoft needs: - Microsoft needs to be relevant in the world of tablets; and - Microsoft needs the market for traditional PCs to not evaporate. So they built a product that is focused entirely on reconciling these two needs -- a product that tries, awkwardly, to serve the needs of both kinds of devices. A product that tries to make Windows relevant to tablets while at the same time not making tablets so awesome that people stop buying traditional PCs for them. The result leaves users cold, because it wasn't designed for them. It was designed to meet Microsoft's corporate strategy imperatives rather than to solve a problem actual users have. It's the worst of Microsoft because of this classic BigCo thinking -- the thinking that the problems products need to solve are the ones that are worried about in the BigCo's executive suite, rather than those the customers are worrying about out there in the world. It's inward-looking product design, which rarely works.
siger 13y ago
Nowhere does it say Windows Blue will include the Start button. It's purely speculation based on this: "In a separate interview with Mary-Jo Foley, Reller said simply that Blue would “address customer feedback” Microsoft has received on Windows 8 and Windows RT." A poor article with a sensationalist headline against MS: great for HN! Edit: at the time of this comment, the submission title was "Microsoft: All RIGHT, you can have your Start button back"
- cpleppert 13y ago
  It is a Register uk tongue in cheek article title, it isn't meant to be sensationalist.
ambiate 13y ago
Just the amount of effort required to put the computer to sleep... ugh. The instructions are: 1) (Sometimes) when you hover in a corner a menu will popup or press WIN + C. 2) Click settings (in the midst of 4(?) other options) 3) Click the power button. 4) Click the desired state. Way too many paths in that state diagram for a typical user. For the common tasks, I expect to make two-three transitions with limited, unambiguous, options. Some of my workflow has transitioned to passing four to five states (usually in Metro at this point), back to desktop, to Chrome to locate help, back to the beginning of the state diagram to perform my original task.
- RKearney 13y ago
  I don't have my Windows 8 box in front of me, but I believe this can be simplified by simply pressing Alt+F4 at the desktop.
  - Payrovk 13y ago
    Very true, but the less tech-savy crowd does not often use key commands.
    - freehunter 13y ago
      Does the less tech-savvy crowd often shut down their computers manually? Seems like they'd rather just close their laptop lid and let it do whatever it does.
      - sixbrx 13y ago
        Not sure why you bring up laptops, some of us use Windows to do what it does best, on PC's with good graphics cards.
        deleted 13y ago
        [deleted]
        freehunter 13y ago
Ueland 13y ago
Now, if Microsoft could bring back ClearType so the fonts don't look all borked up on normal PC screens anymore... There has been a lot of strange things happening over at Redmond lately.
yuhong 13y ago
I still remember the developer preview that still had the start menu, which reminds me of this (see responses by Brandon Live in particular): http://www.neowin.net/forum/topic/1081755-do-you-like-or-hate-windows-8/page__st__435 http://www.neowin.net/forum/topic/1081755-do-you-like-or-hat...

33 points by nealabq 13y ago

acturbo 13y ago

too late.

jpdoctor 13y ago
I agree. They might as well add the start button back in and start calling it an early release of windows 9. We've had exactly zero requests for Win8 on our product. The largest customers that we asked (and who get all the attention, frankly) told us they are sticking to the every-other-windows-release plan. And god help MS if they screw up on Win9.
recoiledsnake 13y ago
Too late? Windows 8 already sold 100 million licenses despite the slowdown in PC sales because of tablets, on par with Windows 7 at release. Meanwhile, Google does not release Chromebook numbers and web share stats show sales are much worse than even WindowsRT, yet we don't seem to hear how ChromeOS is a total failure.
- rmk2 13y ago
  While Windows 8 total sales might be on-par with Windows 7 sales, the total number of devices is not. This essentially suggests a decline in overall (total) market share for Windows.
  - adventured 13y ago
    Do you have industry data that shows the difference between sales and total number of devices? Would like to see it if you have it.
  - cooldeal 13y ago
    Reference? StatCounter data seems to show the opposite of what you're stating.
  - illuminate 13y ago
    "While Windows 8 total sales might be on-par with Windows 7 sales, the total number of devices is not. This essentially suggests a decline in overall (total) market share for Windows." Or a shift away from desktop PCs, perhaps?
- acturbo 13y ago
  Yes, too late for Windows 8. I worked at Microsoft, i know something about release cycles and sales cycles and basically, i can spot the BS and back peddling in the MS press releases because i sat in on enough meetings that drafted that nonsense. And actually, if Google Chromebook is a failure, that fact (i have no idea if it is or isn't a failure) does nothing to support your red herring comment. In case you can't follow that, I'll spell it out for you, accepting your alleged claim that a competing OS is failing (in this case, Chromebook) should, in fact, help sell more units of competing offers, including Windows 8. Yet, the Windows 8 numbers are still way, way off. Windows 8 is a complete and total mess on the desktop. Yes, i bought the upgrade (MS alumni discount), installed it, fought it for 2 frustrating weeks, and eventually flattened my drive back to Windows 7. You think i'm jumping to 8.1 anytime soon? Uh, no. I'm a developer and overall power user, so please spare me the "you were using it wrong" comments. Also, selling 100 million units of Windows 8 is considered a failure at MS.
  - cooldeal 13y ago
    >can spot the BS and back peddling in the MS press releases Perhaps you mean backpedaling? >Uh, no. I'm a developer and overall power user, so please spare me the "you were using it wrong" comments. Speak for yourself, I am a power user too and it took all of ten minutes to get used to Windows 8. Even a 3 year old kid doesn't seem to have trouble. http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=dlZgcAacIxU http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=d...
    - yuhong 13y ago
      For me it is not that difficult, but I am not saying that it is a better desktop interface than in Win7, and I can see how people with large monitors may find it a bit jarring.
      - acturbo 13y ago
        yes, that's just part of the problem, and it is a big issue seeing as i have a 24" monitor. The crux of the problem is that there is no way to fully disengage from Metro. Yes, you can get to your old desktop and fine, there is no Start button (not ideal, but not the end of the world). This is fine until you use some of the built-in Windows apps/features that jolt you back into Metro mode. If i can run Windows 8 -exactly- like Windows 7, then there would be no issues. Side note, i actually like the Metro UI, it looks refreshing and interesting. However, it's simply unusable to people that are used to having 3-7 windows open/apps running at any given time. Power users, developers, designers, engineers, etc. ... people that use various apps to "produce" content will struggle with Windows 8. Now, if you're primarily a consumer of content, that's a different story and i can't speak to that on a desktop. Personally, I use my iPad to consume content and that's been a pleasant surprise.
cpleppert 13y ago
The big problem going forward is what to do about the metro/desktop app dichotomy. They work in totally different ways and essentially require two different interfaces in a single platform. Now that they created this they will essentially have to support both for the foreseeable future. I can't believe Microsoft didn't think through how they were going to improve windows incrementally instead of making a hail mary pass that essentially bet Windows(the brand not just the desktop OS) on a vision that touch screens would be everywhere for laptop/desktop users. I don't now how to interpret this comment from the article: "Reller admitted Microsoft hadn’t focused “all of its financial incentives behind the touch screen PCs that show off Windows 8 to best advantage,” the FT said." First of all, you can't force consumers to buy your products just using financial incentives for system builders. Second, this looks like classic microsoft of throwing money at the market and hoping to succeed eventually. It would have been a lot more flexible just to adapt windows phone to touch screens instead of going the other way and shoehorning windows into mobile devices with a totally different interface that now has to be supported on the desktop as well and dramatically increases the complexity for microsoft, its developers and users. People keep talking about how the start screen replaces the start menu and it is actually an improvement(even Microsoft claimed this); I think this is a rather strange argument as no one was clamoring for a new program launcher in every version of windows since 95! And even if it is an improvement in a very narrow aspect the weirdness of using a component designed for touch screens as the main launcher for a desktop environment can't be overcome.
sixothree 13y ago
And worse, Windows 8 itself will remain completely unchanged. Any fixes will be in the next os release.

greatergoodguy 13y ago

Microsoft is pointing the finger on everything but the actual product. The bigger issue is the poor usability of the product and the benefit of this product is poorly understood by both consumers and microsoft. What's interesting is the Windows 8 overall concept is pretty much the same as a year before Windows 8 was released. You had the metro interface, the desktop app, the lack of a start button... How could they not figure out solution to these issues after having ALL THAT TIME. "Reller reportedly admitted that Microsoft hadn’t done enough to close the knowledge gap by training staff in outlets selling Windows 8 machines or by educating customers in the run-up to last October's launch." "There also seems to be a hint Microsoft recognizes it slipped up by not doing enough to persuade PC makers to build hardware actually capable of using Metro’s UI, which is largely irrelevant on machines lacking touch screens."

canthonytucci 13y ago
>. You had the metro interface, the desktop app, the lack of a start button... How could they not figure out solution to these issues after having ALL THAT TIME. I don't get why people are so upset that the start button is gone. To launch a program I just hit the windows key and start typing the name. This is exactly what I did on windows 7 (though I never used it as my primary OS). The things that show up on the screen are somewhat different, but the result is identical. As a longtime Alfred user on the mac, the winkey+typing method feels quite natural and works well.
- deleted 13y ago
  [deleted]
- diminoten 13y ago
  I realize this isn't a common use-case but at work I was having to work in Windows 8 through a vSphere console window, and for some reason my windows key wasn't getting sent to the console, and it took me literally 10 minutes to get to where I needed to go (I forget specifically what I was doing). I was in stitches with laughter at how unintuitive it was.
- deelowe 13y ago

727374 13y ago

I'm not by any means a MS Hater but here's my vent: Windows 8 is represents the worst of Microsoft - new products/features for the sake of "new". Every tech enthusiast relative I have has been very excited to get a win 8 computer and then has had the exact same reaction to the new OS - "how do I use this"? Why does MS feel the need to re-do a UI, which wasn't broken and force all it's users (many of whom aren't tech enthusiasts to learn something new). Please, just stick with Win 7 and improve it's actual components. E.g. the builtin search isn't as good as spotlight on my Mac. So fix search, but please leave the start button unchanged because it's not bad.

dkl 13y ago
Yesterday I was doing something and got a popup in Windows 8, which told me to "tap" to choose some option. I was a little amused but mostly annoyed. It just shows how deep they went to force me to use a tablet UI on a desktop computer, where I have a mouse and a screen that is not touch sensitive. I installed Classic Shell pretty soon after upgrading from Windows 7. It was either that or destroy my computer in frustration. I still get the odd "ooops, what key combo did I press that activated tablet mode!?!?!" It usually takes me a minute or two to get back to a "normal" situation (where I can see the windows on my desktop). I do have this very annoying bug, though: about once a month, the Z order gets completely messed up. Alt-tab doesn't go to the previous window and goes to "show the desktop". The only fix: logout and login again. Very frustrating.
smacktoward 13y ago
You're half right -- it does represent the worst of Microsoft, but not because of new-for-the-sake-of-new. It represents the worst of Microsoft because it's entirely designed around what Microsoft needs rather than what the user needs. Windows 8 is the way it is because of two things Microsoft needs: - Microsoft needs to be relevant in the world of tablets; and - Microsoft needs the market for traditional PCs to not evaporate. So they built a product that is focused entirely on reconciling these two needs -- a product that tries, awkwardly, to serve the needs of both kinds of devices. A product that tries to make Windows relevant to tablets while at the same time not making tablets so awesome that people stop buying traditional PCs for them. The result leaves users cold, because it wasn't designed for them. It was designed to meet Microsoft's corporate strategy imperatives rather than to solve a problem actual users have. It's the worst of Microsoft because of this classic BigCo thinking -- the thinking that the problems products need to solve are the ones that are worried about in the BigCo's executive suite, rather than those the customers are worrying about out there in the world. It's inward-looking product design, which rarely works.

siger 13y ago

Nowhere does it say Windows Blue will include the Start button. It's purely speculation based on this: "In a separate interview with Mary-Jo Foley, Reller said simply that Blue would “address customer feedback” Microsoft has received on Windows 8 and Windows RT." A poor article with a sensationalist headline against MS: great for HN! Edit: at the time of this comment, the submission title was "Microsoft: All RIGHT, you can have your Start button back"

cpleppert 13y ago
It is a Register uk tongue in cheek article title, it isn't meant to be sensationalist.

ambiate 13y ago

Just the amount of effort required to put the computer to sleep... ugh. The instructions are: 1) (Sometimes) when you hover in a corner a menu will popup or press WIN + C. 2) Click settings (in the midst of 4(?) other options) 3) Click the power button. 4) Click the desired state. Way too many paths in that state diagram for a typical user. For the common tasks, I expect to make two-three transitions with limited, unambiguous, options. Some of my workflow has transitioned to passing four to five states (usually in Metro at this point), back to desktop, to Chrome to locate help, back to the beginning of the state diagram to perform my original task.

RKearney 13y ago
I don't have my Windows 8 box in front of me, but I believe this can be simplified by simply pressing Alt+F4 at the desktop.
- Payrovk 13y ago
  Very true, but the less tech-savy crowd does not often use key commands.
  - freehunter 13y ago
    Does the less tech-savvy crowd often shut down their computers manually? Seems like they'd rather just close their laptop lid and let it do whatever it does.
    - sixbrx 13y ago
      Not sure why you bring up laptops, some of us use Windows to do what it does best, on PC's with good graphics cards.
      - deleted 13y ago
        [deleted]
      - freehunter 13y ago

Ueland 13y ago

Now, if Microsoft could bring back ClearType so the fonts don't look all borked up on normal PC screens anymore... There has been a lot of strange things happening over at Redmond lately.

yuhong 13y ago

I still remember the developer preview that still had the start menu, which reminds me of this (see responses by Brandon Live in particular): http://www.neowin.net/forum/topic/1081755-do-you-like-or-hate-windows-8/page__st__435 http://www.neowin.net/forum/topic/1081755-do-you-like-or-hat...