7 ms·

The important figure (for developers) is not what proportion of pirates would buy the game, but what proportion of possible buyers will pirate instead. My expe

The important figure (for developers) is not what proportion of pirates would buy the game, but what proportion of possible buyers will pirate instead. My experience with my social group is that this second group is quite high. I know (for example) people who have bought many xbox 360 games (as these are hard to pirate) and have never bought a PC game, despite playing similar number of games on each.

chii 14y ago
so in other words, they pirated PC games, and used their limited resources to buy the games they couldn't pirate. Thus, the total amount of money they spent had been the same whether they pirated or not (just distributed differently, to different platforms). Had they not been able to pirate PC games, they might've spent a few more coins on PC games, and a few less coins on the xbox games - the industry wouldn't have seen more profit. However, having the ability to pirate meant that they are more enriched culturally, where as had they needed to pay the full price, they would've had less culture to immerse themselves in. I say that's a good result.
- rubinelli 14y ago
  Yeah, they rewarded the companies that hose their customers with crippling DRM and release the same old FPS and sport game with prettier graphics year after year, and penalized those that trust their fans and are trying to push the envelope in gameplay and storytelling. That's a fantastic result. (EDIT: sorry for the rant, but this stuff really gets under my skin. If you are too cheap to spend 8 bucks on an indie game, SAY SO, don't come up with rationalizations about how the world is a better place for it)
  - everyone 14y ago
    I dont buy games with DRM and I make a point of buying ones without it (for instance on GOG).. My rational is that if the games publisher doesn't trust me then I dont trust them! I also make games and I personally dont mind about piracy.. Its free advertising imo
    - kefka 14y ago
      Well, pirates sure aren't making you money. You care about paying customers. Makes sense to me.
      - jeltz 14y ago
        He called them "free advertising", so he does believe they are making him money. And as an indie developer that could very well be the case.
- pgsandstrom 14y ago
  It seems as if his friends buys game that can't be pirated and pirates games that can be pirated. Yet somehow you come to the conclusion that they would still buy for the same amount if pirating wasn't possible?
  - pbhjpbhj 14y ago
    >they would still buy for the same amount if pirating wasn't possible? // I thought he simply said they would spend the same amount. So they would consume less games and so have less "cultural" experiences if they couldn't pirate some games: So, like, if they'd pirated Gears 1 and bought Republic 2 [made up names] then next period they might have bought Gears 2, but then would have pirated Republic 3 and ArmsRace 1. With stronger anti-piracy measures Gears 1 comes out at the same time as Republic 2 but they can only buy one so they get Republic 2. Next period they get Republic 3 because they don't want to risk the new ArmsRace 1. In both scenarios they bought 2 games - ie spent/bought the same amount. In the second they played 3 more games than in period 1. The makers of Gears benefited from piracy by winning a convert to their franchise (but notably the industry didn't gain in this scenario).
- jiggy2011 14y ago
  Well, that sends a signal to the market to produce more Xbox games and less PC games despite the fact that PC games are popular.
  - chii 14y ago
    and this is indeed the case in reality. Not really sure what to do about it unfortunately, it is quite a sad state of affairs. However, despite the high piracy rates on PC platforms, good games still do well.
- biot 14y ago
  You're overlooking the possibility that some may have eaten less at McDonalds or bought fewer candies in order to save up more money to buy those PC games if piracy weren't such an easy option. It's not as if kids rigorously budget their money and have a "video game" line item which cannot be exceeded. If they could easily sneak into movie theatres or hockey games and never get caught, they'd do that too and spend the leftover money on something else.
  - lilsunnybee 14y ago
    I think most of the video game market are in their 20's+ now. Not sure what proportion of those people have reasonable disposable income or just wasted bills money on a video game.
lazyjones 14y ago
> The important figure (for developers) is not what proportion of pirates would buy the game, but what proportion of possible buyers will pirate instead. There is also another important figure that is routinely ignored: the number of honest customers who get screwed by or annoyed with DRM and other forms of copyright protection (20 years ago we had to enter words from the game manual, page X line Y word Z, in the middle of the game) and decide to buy fewer games in the future (and possibly pirate them instead to avoid such annoyances).
- johnward 14y ago
  Many of the people you mentioned will just get grouped into the "pirate" category when sales slow.
- tinco 14y ago
  There is also another important figure that is routinely ignored: The number of honest customers who get screwed because game companies can not profitably release a big game anymore, so they won't. The CEO of Square Enix was fired because he produced the latest iteration of Tomb Raider, and it arguably is the best iteration of Tomb Raider ever, and plainly didn't make any money. Also your argument about 20 years ago is plain incorrect. 20 years ago DRM was way more strict and customer screwing than it is today. 20 years ago if you wanted to play a top of the line game, you would have to buy a Nintendo Entertainment system. Arguably the most restrictive walled garden system that has ever been in the market.
  - winthrowe 14y ago
    You're almost a decade off; 20 years ago Doom was released and the hottest game I knew of. The North American release of the NES was 28 years ago now.
    - tinco 14y ago
      I think the N64 also had this walled garden system :)
StavrosK 14y ago
As a data point, I haven't pirated a game since Steam came out.
- jiggy2011 14y ago
  Out of interest, why do you think that is? Is it due to convenience , availability of cheap games in sales , extra features in steam or did a rise in your disposable income just happen to coincide with the launch of steam? For me it was mainly 2 and 4.
  - StavrosK 14y ago
    It's a combination of convenience, sales, rise in disposable income, and the fact that I don't have time to play more expensive big-name titles (plus, I like indie games more). The other day I saw a trailer about a game I found visually stunning (Anno 2100? I forget the number), and I checked the price on Steam. It was too expensive for something I'd play once or twice, and I thought of pirating it, but then couldn't be bothered to go through all the hassle. Therefore, I suspect it's mostly convenience.
    - jiggy2011 14y ago
      I find myself reluctant to buy games that are not in sales, even if the normal price would be reasonable to me. I wonder if there were less sales whether I would spend more on games, spend the same on less games or simply pirate more.
      - saalweachter 14y ago
        Eh, sales are just classic market segmentation. By periodically dropping the price of the game towards some minimally profitable number, they can divide the market based on how much you're willing to pay. People willing to pay the "full price" will do so in the first day/week/month, and then people who are willing to pay less and less will do so more and more months later. To put it another way, they never planned to sell 10 million units at $60. They planned to sell 1 million units at $60, 2 million units at $30, 3 million units at $20, and 4 million units at $10. Price drops are the only effective and legal way to do that.
glomph 14y ago
And yet every article (including this one) seems to compare raw numbers of pirates to number of sales, implying they think the former.

chii 14y ago

so in other words, they pirated PC games, and used their limited resources to buy the games they couldn't pirate. Thus, the total amount of money they spent had been the same whether they pirated or not (just distributed differently, to different platforms). Had they not been able to pirate PC games, they might've spent a few more coins on PC games, and a few less coins on the xbox games - the industry wouldn't have seen more profit. However, having the ability to pirate meant that they are more enriched culturally, where as had they needed to pay the full price, they would've had less culture to immerse themselves in. I say that's a good result.

rubinelli 14y ago
Yeah, they rewarded the companies that hose their customers with crippling DRM and release the same old FPS and sport game with prettier graphics year after year, and penalized those that trust their fans and are trying to push the envelope in gameplay and storytelling. That's a fantastic result. (EDIT: sorry for the rant, but this stuff really gets under my skin. If you are too cheap to spend 8 bucks on an indie game, SAY SO, don't come up with rationalizations about how the world is a better place for it)
- everyone 14y ago
  I dont buy games with DRM and I make a point of buying ones without it (for instance on GOG).. My rational is that if the games publisher doesn't trust me then I dont trust them! I also make games and I personally dont mind about piracy.. Its free advertising imo
  - kefka 14y ago
    Well, pirates sure aren't making you money. You care about paying customers. Makes sense to me.
    - jeltz 14y ago
      He called them "free advertising", so he does believe they are making him money. And as an indie developer that could very well be the case.
pgsandstrom 14y ago
It seems as if his friends buys game that can't be pirated and pirates games that can be pirated. Yet somehow you come to the conclusion that they would still buy for the same amount if pirating wasn't possible?
- pbhjpbhj 14y ago
  >they would still buy for the same amount if pirating wasn't possible? // I thought he simply said they would spend the same amount. So they would consume less games and so have less "cultural" experiences if they couldn't pirate some games: So, like, if they'd pirated Gears 1 and bought Republic 2 [made up names] then next period they might have bought Gears 2, but then would have pirated Republic 3 and ArmsRace 1. With stronger anti-piracy measures Gears 1 comes out at the same time as Republic 2 but they can only buy one so they get Republic 2. Next period they get Republic 3 because they don't want to risk the new ArmsRace 1. In both scenarios they bought 2 games - ie spent/bought the same amount. In the second they played 3 more games than in period 1. The makers of Gears benefited from piracy by winning a convert to their franchise (but notably the industry didn't gain in this scenario).
jiggy2011 14y ago
Well, that sends a signal to the market to produce more Xbox games and less PC games despite the fact that PC games are popular.
- chii 14y ago
  and this is indeed the case in reality. Not really sure what to do about it unfortunately, it is quite a sad state of affairs. However, despite the high piracy rates on PC platforms, good games still do well.
biot 14y ago
You're overlooking the possibility that some may have eaten less at McDonalds or bought fewer candies in order to save up more money to buy those PC games if piracy weren't such an easy option. It's not as if kids rigorously budget their money and have a "video game" line item which cannot be exceeded. If they could easily sneak into movie theatres or hockey games and never get caught, they'd do that too and spend the leftover money on something else.
- lilsunnybee 14y ago
  I think most of the video game market are in their 20's+ now. Not sure what proportion of those people have reasonable disposable income or just wasted bills money on a video game.

lazyjones 14y ago

> The important figure (for developers) is not what proportion of pirates would buy the game, but what proportion of possible buyers will pirate instead. There is also another important figure that is routinely ignored: the number of honest customers who get screwed by or annoyed with DRM and other forms of copyright protection (20 years ago we had to enter words from the game manual, page X line Y word Z, in the middle of the game) and decide to buy fewer games in the future (and possibly pirate them instead to avoid such annoyances).

johnward 14y ago
Many of the people you mentioned will just get grouped into the "pirate" category when sales slow.
tinco 14y ago
There is also another important figure that is routinely ignored: The number of honest customers who get screwed because game companies can not profitably release a big game anymore, so they won't. The CEO of Square Enix was fired because he produced the latest iteration of Tomb Raider, and it arguably is the best iteration of Tomb Raider ever, and plainly didn't make any money. Also your argument about 20 years ago is plain incorrect. 20 years ago DRM was way more strict and customer screwing than it is today. 20 years ago if you wanted to play a top of the line game, you would have to buy a Nintendo Entertainment system. Arguably the most restrictive walled garden system that has ever been in the market.
- winthrowe 14y ago
  You're almost a decade off; 20 years ago Doom was released and the hottest game I knew of. The North American release of the NES was 28 years ago now.
  - tinco 14y ago
    I think the N64 also had this walled garden system :)

StavrosK 14y ago

As a data point, I haven't pirated a game since Steam came out.

jiggy2011 14y ago
Out of interest, why do you think that is? Is it due to convenience , availability of cheap games in sales , extra features in steam or did a rise in your disposable income just happen to coincide with the launch of steam? For me it was mainly 2 and 4.
- StavrosK 14y ago
  It's a combination of convenience, sales, rise in disposable income, and the fact that I don't have time to play more expensive big-name titles (plus, I like indie games more). The other day I saw a trailer about a game I found visually stunning (Anno 2100? I forget the number), and I checked the price on Steam. It was too expensive for something I'd play once or twice, and I thought of pirating it, but then couldn't be bothered to go through all the hassle. Therefore, I suspect it's mostly convenience.
  - jiggy2011 14y ago
    I find myself reluctant to buy games that are not in sales, even if the normal price would be reasonable to me. I wonder if there were less sales whether I would spend more on games, spend the same on less games or simply pirate more.
    - saalweachter 14y ago
      Eh, sales are just classic market segmentation. By periodically dropping the price of the game towards some minimally profitable number, they can divide the market based on how much you're willing to pay. People willing to pay the "full price" will do so in the first day/week/month, and then people who are willing to pay less and less will do so more and more months later. To put it another way, they never planned to sell 10 million units at $60. They planned to sell 1 million units at $60, 2 million units at $30, 3 million units at $20, and 4 million units at $10. Price drops are the only effective and legal way to do that.

glomph 14y ago

And yet every article (including this one) seems to compare raw numbers of pirates to number of sales, implying they think the former.