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I don't think programming is "fun" per se. It's merely the means to an end for me. It's certainly satisfying and rewarding in numerous ways to create new things

by sho 18y ago

I don't think programming is "fun" per se. It's merely the means to an end for me. It's certainly satisfying and rewarding in numerous ways to create new things, but I just spent 8 hours debugging and refactoring Javascript and let me tell you "fun" is not the first word that springs to mind to describe the experience. Why does everything have to be "fun"? An activity can be good without being fun. Many of the best things we can do as humans are not fun at all and yet undeniably a good use of our time. I learnt the piano for 20 years and not a single one of the scales I played was "fun". I know an athelete who gets up every morning at 6am to run for an hour, rain or shine. She doesn't do it because it's fun, she does it because she wants something, and that's the way to get it. The end result is when we receive our deferred payment for our labours, be it being able to play any song we can imagine, run a triathlon, or admire our sparkling new web app. Whether the process was "fun" or not doesn't really enter into it. In fact, wilfully choosing to do things that aren't fun in pursuit of an abstract or distant goal is a hallmark of adulthood, IMO. I'm not saying I don't try to make the process as enjoyable as possible, of course. Just that I don't think programming is innately fun, nor do I care that it is not - one does what needs to be done.

wenbert 18y ago
The same goes for me while I am at work. Debugging sucks the life out of you. I try to compensate by doing my personal side-projects/start-up a few hours a night.
- sho 18y ago
  This is my side-project >_< and what better way to spend the Easter weekend than converting it to jQuery? But yes - there are moments of satisfaction! A good problem, within or near to your domain knowledge, where you can fly through it at a rate of knots, get in the groove and get it done - that can be wonderful. But I don't think it's programming per se that's delivering the satisfaction, it's the pleasure of applying your well-honed skills in an efficient and productive fashion. The two are separate, in my opinion. Playing Half-life is "fun". Creating things is good and satisfying but the actual process is often anything but fun. We still do it, of course. Then again, perhaps there's a type of person who really does think typing obscure commands into computers to try to make them do what you want is "fun" in and of itself, but that person is not me. I tell the computer to do things because I want them done, not because I find it fascinating to talk to the computer. Guess I'm outing myself as a bad programmer here, but hey, I would have told you that anyway.
  - jlees 18y ago
    I tell the computer to do things because I want them done, not because I find it fascinating to talk to the computer. I was going to agree with this but then I remembered how awesome it is when you tell the computer to do things, and they get done, and it all works out like magic. That click! moment when the cogs all start turning together... in a way it's a means to an end for me, but the end is so beautiful sometimes.
- jimbokun 18y ago
  "Debugging sucks the life out of you." This made me think of a contrary point of view. "I like debugging: it's the one time that hacking is as straightforward as people think it is. You have a totally constrained problem, and all you have to do is solve it." http://www.paulgraham.com/hp.html http://www.paulgraham.com/hp.html I try to foster this attitude, now, when fixing bugs.
  - wenbert 18y ago
    Hehe. I might have been over the top when I wrote my previous comment. But seriously, I would prefer working on things that I do not know yet than fixing other people's code.
- frossie 18y ago
  I am taken aback about this and other negative comments about debugging. I love debugging - the thrill of the chase, the dodging out of blind alleys, the moment of triumph when you track the bugger down, the know-it-all closing of the bug report... Takes all kinds to make the world I guess :-)
apsurd 18y ago
In fact, wilfully choosing to do things that aren't fun in pursuit of an abstract or distant goal is a hallmark of adulthood, IMO. This is agreeable, but then one could say FUN is what makes your childhood so great. For me personally, I am obsessed with being responsible and becoming a Man, so that I can be a kid forever. Then you get into that whole zen mode thing. Pain is necessary for pleasure, hard work is really the root of fun, etc.
phugoid 18y ago
By that token, what _is_ fun? Let's say you ask a painter if he enjoys painting. Do they really enjoy the act of dragging a brush over a surface, of cleaning brushes, mixing colours? These are just the low-level, mechanical parts of the activity. Playing scales fits in the same category, so does a lot of refactoring. What about the thinking part?
- jimbokun 18y ago
  "Do they really enjoy the act of dragging a brush over a surface, of cleaning brushes, mixing colours?" They very well might. I imagine there are painters who would be bored to tears with a computer program that allowed them to think out their painting and execute it without ever getting a brush dirty. The tactile and sensory experience of painting with physical brushes and paints might be a large part of why they enjoy it.
- eduardoflores 18y ago
  Yes, it's fun to drag the brush and feel, smell the painting, mixing the colors... even just going to buy materials is fun. Painting for hours to get a picture you never had idea you could is also fun... enjoy As it's fun to crunch numbers for hundreds of thousands of text documents with a Ruby script and then getting the results into R language and throwing amazing graphics of an algorithm correctly classifying them. Yes it's about the results, and it's about the process.
  - phugoid 18y ago
    Actually, I agree with you. I enjoy the process too. I was just trying to make sense of sho's post. Why would (s)he be coding in his spare time if (s)he so doesn't take some pleasure in the mechanics of it?
- sho 18y ago
  Well you hit the nail on the head there; perhaps it's all about what you define as "fun". For me, fun is a kind of whimsical enjoyment. For example, I love karaoke and drinking with my friends. That's "fun". Shooting aliens in games is fun. Playing paintball is fun. Taking E and smoking a whole pack of cigarettes while sitting in front of the bass box at a nightclub is so fun it's almost orgasmic. Programming is satisfying and good and necessary and I proudly describe myself as a programmer, despite perhaps not being all that good at it - but it's not like any of the above things, to me at least. It's not untrammelled enjoyment. It can be frustrating, infuriating even. Satisfying too, of course, but I just question whether extended periods of genuine frustration can be called "fun" - for me they're anything but, despite the overall positivity of the process. Seems opinions differ, and it may all just come down to definitions.
cubicle67 18y ago
Am I the only one here who derives a considerable amount of joy from the act of writing code? I've worked across a wide variety of languages and environments, including far more Access VBA than anyone should be exposed to (I loath Access more than any other environment ever), and yet, even here I love writing code. There's something amazingly zen about it; I am the machine, corny as it sounds. It's where I am at peace. I don't know how to respond to people who see coding as merely an end to a means, except to say that that may be true for you, but for me it's far far more.
- visitor4rmindia 18y ago
  Same here - I enjoy programming. I'm passionate about it. I can relate very strongly to the OP. I program because I want to - because the very act gives me joy. I'm not crazy about debugging but it's a part of my craft and I even enjoy it sometimes. Sometimes, I still can't believe they pay me to do this!
  - blhack 18y ago
    I love debugging...I even [sometimes] love debugging other people's code... Its a bit like being a kid, and going out exploring in the woods, or trying to figure out where your parents hid the christmas presents. Everything is new, and shiny (with other's code)...its fun seeing how other people do things... That and it is a puzzle. Doing stuff in the "real world" is boring, predictable. Doing stuff in code is fun. There are no "rules" really. The only limitation is how much yerba matte I can consume.
    - benmathes 18y ago
      I like solving puzzles based on inherent complexity -- complications that arise in the data structures and algorithms of a piece of code. Any time spent fixing complexity layered onto the minimal complexity by confusing or poorly-factored code sucks. For example: I enjoy solving a performance issue by introducing a time/space tradeoff. I do _not_ enjoy fixing a bug where a previous coder (maybe me) misspelled a variable name once in a 6000-line function -- that's just cleaning up a mess, not problem solving.
jimbokun 18y ago
"The end result is when we receive our deferred payment for our labours, be it being able to play any song we can imagine, run a triathlon, or admire our sparkling new web app." There is a phenomenon I've read about where Olympic athletes often suffer from depression after winning a gold medal. The reason seems to be that they suddenly have no idea what to do, after putting themselves fully into achieving a goal for years, now that they've attained it. I think another way to attain maturity is to understand that the process, the work, is the whole point. Yes, the work has to be in service of some worthwhile goal in order to be worthwhile. But I think it is healthy to find satisfaction in the carrying out of worthwhile duties, not only in end results.
- sho 18y ago
  I belatedly came to think that it's just about different definitions of the word "fun". I do find programming work satisfying, I think. Solving problems, making things work, making incremental progress, seeing the pieces come together. It's very satisfying. It just doesn't fit any definition of "fun" that I subscribe to, which kind of rings of "whimsical enjoyment". I mean, it's like a doctor, perhaps. I have known several doctors and surgeons, and they all seemed to find their work incredibly satisfying. Saving people's lives, putting them back together, telling them what's wrong with them and helping them fix it - there is a deep, virtuous satisfaction they feel in doing their jobs and doing them well. But would a surgeon describe a successful operation as "fun"? I fully agree with you that the process and work is the whole point, really. I like my work, obviously, else I'd find something else to do! It's just not what I would call fun. I should have just written that originally, but a few hours to reflect helped in clarifying and solidifying the original impulse.
- chiffonade 18y ago
  > understand that the process, the work, is the whole point. This is true only if you own your work. Doing it for someone else on a salary... is not the whole point. Of anything. Trust me on this one.

by sho 18y ago

wenbert 18y ago

The same goes for me while I am at work. Debugging sucks the life out of you. I try to compensate by doing my personal side-projects/start-up a few hours a night.

sho 18y ago
This is my side-project >_< and what better way to spend the Easter weekend than converting it to jQuery? But yes - there are moments of satisfaction! A good problem, within or near to your domain knowledge, where you can fly through it at a rate of knots, get in the groove and get it done - that can be wonderful. But I don't think it's programming per se that's delivering the satisfaction, it's the pleasure of applying your well-honed skills in an efficient and productive fashion. The two are separate, in my opinion. Playing Half-life is "fun". Creating things is good and satisfying but the actual process is often anything but fun. We still do it, of course. Then again, perhaps there's a type of person who really does think typing obscure commands into computers to try to make them do what you want is "fun" in and of itself, but that person is not me. I tell the computer to do things because I want them done, not because I find it fascinating to talk to the computer. Guess I'm outing myself as a bad programmer here, but hey, I would have told you that anyway.
- jlees 18y ago
  I tell the computer to do things because I want them done, not because I find it fascinating to talk to the computer. I was going to agree with this but then I remembered how awesome it is when you tell the computer to do things, and they get done, and it all works out like magic. That click! moment when the cogs all start turning together... in a way it's a means to an end for me, but the end is so beautiful sometimes.
jimbokun 18y ago
"Debugging sucks the life out of you." This made me think of a contrary point of view. "I like debugging: it's the one time that hacking is as straightforward as people think it is. You have a totally constrained problem, and all you have to do is solve it." http://www.paulgraham.com/hp.html http://www.paulgraham.com/hp.html I try to foster this attitude, now, when fixing bugs.
- wenbert 18y ago
  Hehe. I might have been over the top when I wrote my previous comment. But seriously, I would prefer working on things that I do not know yet than fixing other people's code.
frossie 18y ago
I am taken aback about this and other negative comments about debugging. I love debugging - the thrill of the chase, the dodging out of blind alleys, the moment of triumph when you track the bugger down, the know-it-all closing of the bug report... Takes all kinds to make the world I guess :-)

apsurd 18y ago

In fact, wilfully choosing to do things that aren't fun in pursuit of an abstract or distant goal is a hallmark of adulthood, IMO. This is agreeable, but then one could say FUN is what makes your childhood so great. For me personally, I am obsessed with being responsible and becoming a Man, so that I can be a kid forever. Then you get into that whole zen mode thing. Pain is necessary for pleasure, hard work is really the root of fun, etc.

phugoid 18y ago

By that token, what _is_ fun? Let's say you ask a painter if he enjoys painting. Do they really enjoy the act of dragging a brush over a surface, of cleaning brushes, mixing colours? These are just the low-level, mechanical parts of the activity. Playing scales fits in the same category, so does a lot of refactoring. What about the thinking part?

jimbokun 18y ago
"Do they really enjoy the act of dragging a brush over a surface, of cleaning brushes, mixing colours?" They very well might. I imagine there are painters who would be bored to tears with a computer program that allowed them to think out their painting and execute it without ever getting a brush dirty. The tactile and sensory experience of painting with physical brushes and paints might be a large part of why they enjoy it.
eduardoflores 18y ago
Yes, it's fun to drag the brush and feel, smell the painting, mixing the colors... even just going to buy materials is fun. Painting for hours to get a picture you never had idea you could is also fun... enjoy As it's fun to crunch numbers for hundreds of thousands of text documents with a Ruby script and then getting the results into R language and throwing amazing graphics of an algorithm correctly classifying them. Yes it's about the results, and it's about the process.
- phugoid 18y ago
  Actually, I agree with you. I enjoy the process too. I was just trying to make sense of sho's post. Why would (s)he be coding in his spare time if (s)he so doesn't take some pleasure in the mechanics of it?
sho 18y ago
Well you hit the nail on the head there; perhaps it's all about what you define as "fun". For me, fun is a kind of whimsical enjoyment. For example, I love karaoke and drinking with my friends. That's "fun". Shooting aliens in games is fun. Playing paintball is fun. Taking E and smoking a whole pack of cigarettes while sitting in front of the bass box at a nightclub is so fun it's almost orgasmic. Programming is satisfying and good and necessary and I proudly describe myself as a programmer, despite perhaps not being all that good at it - but it's not like any of the above things, to me at least. It's not untrammelled enjoyment. It can be frustrating, infuriating even. Satisfying too, of course, but I just question whether extended periods of genuine frustration can be called "fun" - for me they're anything but, despite the overall positivity of the process. Seems opinions differ, and it may all just come down to definitions.

cubicle67 18y ago

Am I the only one here who derives a considerable amount of joy from the act of writing code? I've worked across a wide variety of languages and environments, including far more Access VBA than anyone should be exposed to (I loath Access more than any other environment ever), and yet, even here I love writing code. There's something amazingly zen about it; I am the machine, corny as it sounds. It's where I am at peace. I don't know how to respond to people who see coding as merely an end to a means, except to say that that may be true for you, but for me it's far far more.

visitor4rmindia 18y ago
Same here - I enjoy programming. I'm passionate about it. I can relate very strongly to the OP. I program because I want to - because the very act gives me joy. I'm not crazy about debugging but it's a part of my craft and I even enjoy it sometimes. Sometimes, I still can't believe they pay me to do this!
- blhack 18y ago
  I love debugging...I even [sometimes] love debugging other people's code... Its a bit like being a kid, and going out exploring in the woods, or trying to figure out where your parents hid the christmas presents. Everything is new, and shiny (with other's code)...its fun seeing how other people do things... That and it is a puzzle. Doing stuff in the "real world" is boring, predictable. Doing stuff in code is fun. There are no "rules" really. The only limitation is how much yerba matte I can consume.
  - benmathes 18y ago
    I like solving puzzles based on inherent complexity -- complications that arise in the data structures and algorithms of a piece of code. Any time spent fixing complexity layered onto the minimal complexity by confusing or poorly-factored code sucks. For example: I enjoy solving a performance issue by introducing a time/space tradeoff. I do _not_ enjoy fixing a bug where a previous coder (maybe me) misspelled a variable name once in a 6000-line function -- that's just cleaning up a mess, not problem solving.

jimbokun 18y ago

"The end result is when we receive our deferred payment for our labours, be it being able to play any song we can imagine, run a triathlon, or admire our sparkling new web app." There is a phenomenon I've read about where Olympic athletes often suffer from depression after winning a gold medal. The reason seems to be that they suddenly have no idea what to do, after putting themselves fully into achieving a goal for years, now that they've attained it. I think another way to attain maturity is to understand that the process, the work, is the whole point. Yes, the work has to be in service of some worthwhile goal in order to be worthwhile. But I think it is healthy to find satisfaction in the carrying out of worthwhile duties, not only in end results.

sho 18y ago
I belatedly came to think that it's just about different definitions of the word "fun". I do find programming work satisfying, I think. Solving problems, making things work, making incremental progress, seeing the pieces come together. It's very satisfying. It just doesn't fit any definition of "fun" that I subscribe to, which kind of rings of "whimsical enjoyment". I mean, it's like a doctor, perhaps. I have known several doctors and surgeons, and they all seemed to find their work incredibly satisfying. Saving people's lives, putting them back together, telling them what's wrong with them and helping them fix it - there is a deep, virtuous satisfaction they feel in doing their jobs and doing them well. But would a surgeon describe a successful operation as "fun"? I fully agree with you that the process and work is the whole point, really. I like my work, obviously, else I'd find something else to do! It's just not what I would call fun. I should have just written that originally, but a few hours to reflect helped in clarifying and solidifying the original impulse.
chiffonade 18y ago
> understand that the process, the work, is the whole point. This is true only if you own your work. Doing it for someone else on a salary... is not the whole point. Of anything. Trust me on this one.