5 ms·

Economies of Scala

79 points by simenfur 13y ago

ruudud 13y ago
Interesting numbers. Why do you think that Java developers are the most likely to look for other languages?
- rohshall 13y ago
  Most probably because Java is verbose and does not support some simple concepts like functions.
  - Ingon 13y ago
    Thats does not sound like the whole truth. I would guess that Java long ago lost its sexiness - now everybody and everything uses Java. The other problem is that now there is vast amount of legacy code. By choosing Scala you are actually eliminating that from the equation.
    - mercurial 13y ago
      The fact that it failed to evolve for so long, unlike c#, doesn't help.
- trailfox 13y ago
  Mostly because the Java syntax has remained (mostly) unchanged since September 2004. Java 8 will change that, but it's still a far cry from what's available in Scala.
- JulianMorrison 13y ago
  Java wants everything done in its way, and its way is painfully, needlessly verbose, and weak at expressing algorithms in a way that encourages bugs. Also Java's conventions and culture magnify its verbosity, it's popular libraries and extensions are over-engineered, and its package file format lacks versions and versioned dependencies, producing inevitable conflicts. It's slow to start up and a memory hog. Really the only advantage is that it's fast. The other JVM languages reduce some of its flaws. Go, I have found, avoids them all.
- taeric 13y ago
  I disagree with the other responses at the basic level. I think this is a simple supply/demand response. There is an over supply of Java developers. This means that many of them are looking to alternative languages to differentiate their own skills for others. This is particularly true among Java "leadership." Where the heads of the languages have been increasingly visible in other languages.
  - KentBeck 13y ago
    That's an interesting reversal of the logic in the paper. I assumed that the programmers looking for the next cool languages were doing so in pursuit of novelty and not doing it for economic reasons. I wonder how you could empirically support one or the other hypothesis.
    - taeric 13y ago
      Well, sadly, I basically have no idea on how to explore my thought here. Really, all I have are some platitudes. "Go where the money is," combined with "Don't go where everyone else is going." So, yeah, I would be curious on how to support either hypothesis, as well. Best I could think would be to track job listings. While I think you will get a few folks doing things for the novelty and to make it work. I think the majority entering an industry are chasing the buck the last success made.
- candybar 13y ago
  Because the ubiquity of Java means people are forced to use it.
ganarajpr 13y ago
love the title of the article.. Very creative.
- seunosewa 13y ago
  A more meaningful title - e.g. My Business Case For Scala - would probably have worked better, though.
  - olecr 13y ago
    It's a reference to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economies_of_scale http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economies_of_scale
trailfox 13y ago
I consider myself very fortunate to be coding in Scala. I know of many Java developers who code Java at work and wish that they could land a Scala job.
- JPKab 13y ago
  Just curious: As someone who is teaching himself Clojure at the moment, what are the advantages of Scala over Clojure?
  - kasey_junk 13y ago
    The type system.
    - jshen 13y ago
      He asked for advantages ;)
      - octo_t 13y ago
        The type system.
        willismichael 13y ago
        "I’m not against types, but I don’t know of any type systems that aren’t a complete pain, so I still like dynamic typing." -Alan Kay
  - terhechte 13y ago
    The way it combines functional programming with object oriented programming. This kinda gives you the best of both worlds (others may refer to it as 'frankensteinian' though).
  - voidlogic 13y ago
    All the usual benchmark disclaimers apply, but Scala appears to compare pretty favourably in the Programming Language Shootout: http://benchmarksgame.alioth.debian.org/u64q/benchmark.php?test=all&lang=scala&lang2=clojure&data=u64q http://benchmarksgame.alioth.debian.org/u64q/benchmark.php?t... Generally Scala appears to use less time, less memory and less code. I have not ever used either so I cannot anecdotally confirm this.
deleted 13y ago
[deleted]
msluyter 13y ago
At the company I worked at previously, the case was often made that java should be used because it's easy to find java programmers. That sounds plausible, but in practice we found it very difficult to find good java programmers. Perhaps to some extent it's even harder than with other languages, because a lot of really talented people are drawn to new shiny ecosystems -- not saying java folks aren't talented, but as a java programmer myself, I see many of the most driven/passionate people wanting to get away from java.
- shawndumas 13y ago
  http://www.paulgraham.com/pypar.html http://www.paulgraham.com/pypar.html
  - dopamean 13y ago
    > if a company chooses to write its software in a comparatively esoteric language, they'll be able to hire better programmers, because they'll attract only those who cared enough to learn it. I cant help but think of Jane Street Capital's use of OCaml when reading that line. From what I understand there are some extremely bright people writing fantastic code over there.
sbilstein 13y ago
I've been working in a Scala shop for the last year. Once you've begun to take advantage of the type systems, monads, and writing in a functional manner, Scala becomes a extremely pleasant language to work with and significantly improves productivity.

Economies of Scala

79 points by simenfur 13y ago

ruudud 13y ago

Interesting numbers. Why do you think that Java developers are the most likely to look for other languages?

rohshall 13y ago
Most probably because Java is verbose and does not support some simple concepts like functions.
- Ingon 13y ago
  Thats does not sound like the whole truth. I would guess that Java long ago lost its sexiness - now everybody and everything uses Java. The other problem is that now there is vast amount of legacy code. By choosing Scala you are actually eliminating that from the equation.
  - mercurial 13y ago
    The fact that it failed to evolve for so long, unlike c#, doesn't help.
trailfox 13y ago
Mostly because the Java syntax has remained (mostly) unchanged since September 2004. Java 8 will change that, but it's still a far cry from what's available in Scala.
JulianMorrison 13y ago
Java wants everything done in its way, and its way is painfully, needlessly verbose, and weak at expressing algorithms in a way that encourages bugs. Also Java's conventions and culture magnify its verbosity, it's popular libraries and extensions are over-engineered, and its package file format lacks versions and versioned dependencies, producing inevitable conflicts. It's slow to start up and a memory hog. Really the only advantage is that it's fast. The other JVM languages reduce some of its flaws. Go, I have found, avoids them all.
taeric 13y ago
I disagree with the other responses at the basic level. I think this is a simple supply/demand response. There is an over supply of Java developers. This means that many of them are looking to alternative languages to differentiate their own skills for others. This is particularly true among Java "leadership." Where the heads of the languages have been increasingly visible in other languages.
- KentBeck 13y ago
  That's an interesting reversal of the logic in the paper. I assumed that the programmers looking for the next cool languages were doing so in pursuit of novelty and not doing it for economic reasons. I wonder how you could empirically support one or the other hypothesis.
  - taeric 13y ago
    Well, sadly, I basically have no idea on how to explore my thought here. Really, all I have are some platitudes. "Go where the money is," combined with "Don't go where everyone else is going." So, yeah, I would be curious on how to support either hypothesis, as well. Best I could think would be to track job listings. While I think you will get a few folks doing things for the novelty and to make it work. I think the majority entering an industry are chasing the buck the last success made.
candybar 13y ago
Because the ubiquity of Java means people are forced to use it.

ganarajpr 13y ago

love the title of the article.. Very creative.

seunosewa 13y ago
A more meaningful title - e.g. My Business Case For Scala - would probably have worked better, though.
- olecr 13y ago
  It's a reference to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economies_of_scale http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economies_of_scale

trailfox 13y ago

I consider myself very fortunate to be coding in Scala. I know of many Java developers who code Java at work and wish that they could land a Scala job.

JPKab 13y ago
Just curious: As someone who is teaching himself Clojure at the moment, what are the advantages of Scala over Clojure?
- kasey_junk 13y ago
  The type system.
  - jshen 13y ago
    He asked for advantages ;)
    - octo_t 13y ago
      The type system.
      - willismichael 13y ago
        "I’m not against types, but I don’t know of any type systems that aren’t a complete pain, so I still like dynamic typing." -Alan Kay
- terhechte 13y ago
  The way it combines functional programming with object oriented programming. This kinda gives you the best of both worlds (others may refer to it as 'frankensteinian' though).
- voidlogic 13y ago
  All the usual benchmark disclaimers apply, but Scala appears to compare pretty favourably in the Programming Language Shootout: http://benchmarksgame.alioth.debian.org/u64q/benchmark.php?test=all&lang=scala&lang2=clojure&data=u64q http://benchmarksgame.alioth.debian.org/u64q/benchmark.php?t... Generally Scala appears to use less time, less memory and less code. I have not ever used either so I cannot anecdotally confirm this.

deleted 13y ago

[deleted]

msluyter 13y ago

At the company I worked at previously, the case was often made that java should be used because it's easy to find java programmers. That sounds plausible, but in practice we found it very difficult to find good java programmers. Perhaps to some extent it's even harder than with other languages, because a lot of really talented people are drawn to new shiny ecosystems -- not saying java folks aren't talented, but as a java programmer myself, I see many of the most driven/passionate people wanting to get away from java.

shawndumas 13y ago
http://www.paulgraham.com/pypar.html http://www.paulgraham.com/pypar.html
- dopamean 13y ago
  > if a company chooses to write its software in a comparatively esoteric language, they'll be able to hire better programmers, because they'll attract only those who cared enough to learn it. I cant help but think of Jane Street Capital's use of OCaml when reading that line. From what I understand there are some extremely bright people writing fantastic code over there.

sbilstein 13y ago

I've been working in a Scala shop for the last year. Once you've begun to take advantage of the type systems, monads, and writing in a functional manner, Scala becomes a extremely pleasant language to work with and significantly improves productivity.