4 ms·

"Our grandfathers knew about fault tolerance" Just our grandfathers, and not our grandparents as a whole?

by rachelbythebay 14y ago

cperciva 14y ago
Given the time period in question, I think it's quite likely that all the people working on this project were men.
- auctiontheory 14y ago
  Well, our grandmothers had to tolerate our grandfathers' faults. That's probably enough to ask.
- seanmcdirmid 14y ago
  Unless your grandmother was Rear Admiral "Amazing" Grace Hopper?
  - cperciva 14y ago
    I did consider her, but during the period in question she was working at UNIVAC on compilers.
    - seanmcdirmid 14y ago
      I was fighting the generalization, not the details.
Domenic_S 14y ago
"Grandfather" also means 'ancestor'. http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/grandfather http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/grandfather
- rachelbythebay 14y ago
  Okay, miss.
- damian2000 14y ago
  Another case ... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grandfather_clause http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grandfather_clause
- vacri 14y ago
  Your own 'ancestor' link is a referal to the definition of father of parent. It's not gender neutral.
deleted 14y ago
[deleted]
- rachelbythebay 14y ago
  It's annoying when you're constantly reminded about how things are messed up, isn't it? It makes you want to leave the situation, right? That's essentially what you're saying. That's the cat food factory hard at work.
  - coolsunglasses 14y ago
    'Fraid that's not so. Nitpicking over grandfathers in an article that wasn't about gender with regards to an era where it was probably an accurate statement? Must one distort reality in order to be a good feminist now? This sort of behavior damages the cause and just promotes the stereotype of shrill feminists. It's embarrassing and I don't want to witness it anymore.
    - bonaldi 14y ago
      Sexist defence of the patriarchy is far more embarrassing, and I don't want to witness that, either. Virtually all the replies here are moronic. As the piece is not talking about literal grandfathers, there are plenty of non-gendered terms for ancestors that can be used here, and they should be. Sexism is subtle, and its wounds come from thousands of tiny cuts. Using "grandfather" seems innocuous to you, but it perpetuates the idea of an all-male environment, with wisdom being passed from father to son. Sexism is a flaw in our environment. If we can't fix even minor bugs like this without dealing with hoonloads of "works for me!" and "feature not a bug", we will never be able to fix the crashers that result in conferences being derailed.
    - manicdee 14y ago
      Its won thing two complain about distortion off reality but another two ask four a record of history that accurately represent's what actually happened. How much did you have to resist correcting the grammar of that sentence? Are you nitpicking over grammar where it isn't actually important? Do you need to "distort reality" to be a good grammarian now? What is embarrassing in our world is people shying away from the discussion of unintentionally sexist language. The words we use shape the thoughts we have. The thoughts we have influence the words we use. It's a reinforcement cycle. Rather than "grandfathers" what about "forebears"? Since we're not talking about parental relationships any father/mother/parent talk is misleading. Rachel has a valid criticism. Portraying that criticism as "distort[ing] reality in order to be a good feminist" is disingenuous.
deleted 14y ago
[deleted]
slocklin01 14y ago
Women were involved with programming from a fairly early date (you can find videos by Judith Clapp on youtube describing her involvement). As far as I know, they didn't have anything to do with the fault tolerant systems, or designing the computer itself. Therefore: yes, "grandfathers" is the correct word to use. Both in the English language sense, and in the gender sense in this instance. I'm sorry you think it is more productive to call out perceived slights to your gender, rather than doing something awesome. I guess it's a lot easier kvetching than, you know, actually doing something.
bluedanieru 14y ago
Thank you, rachelbythebay, for hijacking what could have been an interesting discussion about cold war tech, with your stupid fucking semantic feminist bullshit. As you continue your study of the English language (I assume you are not a native speaker because there are few native speakers dumb enough not to understand basic 3rd-grade things like gender in the English language (i.e. "Grandfathers" doesn't mean "our ancestors who are male" you fucking idiot)), you will begin to understand the folly of your statement here. Oh, what's this? You are a native speaker? Borne and raised in the USA, you say? Might I suggest then you Get The Fuck Out.
- Dylan16807 14y ago
  That is not even remotely helpful. And a top-level comment isn't a hijack.

"Our grandfathers knew about fault tolerance" Just our grandfathers, and not our grandparents as a whole?

cperciva 14y ago

Given the time period in question, I think it's quite likely that all the people working on this project were men.

auctiontheory 14y ago
Well, our grandmothers had to tolerate our grandfathers' faults. That's probably enough to ask.
seanmcdirmid 14y ago
Unless your grandmother was Rear Admiral "Amazing" Grace Hopper?
- cperciva 14y ago
  I did consider her, but during the period in question she was working at UNIVAC on compilers.
  - seanmcdirmid 14y ago
    I was fighting the generalization, not the details.

Domenic_S 14y ago

"Grandfather" also means 'ancestor'. http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/grandfather http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/grandfather

rachelbythebay 14y ago
Okay, miss.
damian2000 14y ago
Another case ... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grandfather_clause http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grandfather_clause
vacri 14y ago
Your own 'ancestor' link is a referal to the definition of father of parent. It's not gender neutral.

deleted 14y ago

[deleted]

rachelbythebay 14y ago
It's annoying when you're constantly reminded about how things are messed up, isn't it? It makes you want to leave the situation, right? That's essentially what you're saying. That's the cat food factory hard at work.
- coolsunglasses 14y ago
  'Fraid that's not so. Nitpicking over grandfathers in an article that wasn't about gender with regards to an era where it was probably an accurate statement? Must one distort reality in order to be a good feminist now? This sort of behavior damages the cause and just promotes the stereotype of shrill feminists. It's embarrassing and I don't want to witness it anymore.
  - bonaldi 14y ago
    Sexist defence of the patriarchy is far more embarrassing, and I don't want to witness that, either. Virtually all the replies here are moronic. As the piece is not talking about literal grandfathers, there are plenty of non-gendered terms for ancestors that can be used here, and they should be. Sexism is subtle, and its wounds come from thousands of tiny cuts. Using "grandfather" seems innocuous to you, but it perpetuates the idea of an all-male environment, with wisdom being passed from father to son. Sexism is a flaw in our environment. If we can't fix even minor bugs like this without dealing with hoonloads of "works for me!" and "feature not a bug", we will never be able to fix the crashers that result in conferences being derailed.
  - manicdee 14y ago
    Its won thing two complain about distortion off reality but another two ask four a record of history that accurately represent's what actually happened. How much did you have to resist correcting the grammar of that sentence? Are you nitpicking over grammar where it isn't actually important? Do you need to "distort reality" to be a good grammarian now? What is embarrassing in our world is people shying away from the discussion of unintentionally sexist language. The words we use shape the thoughts we have. The thoughts we have influence the words we use. It's a reinforcement cycle. Rather than "grandfathers" what about "forebears"? Since we're not talking about parental relationships any father/mother/parent talk is misleading. Rachel has a valid criticism. Portraying that criticism as "distort[ing] reality in order to be a good feminist" is disingenuous.

deleted 14y ago

[deleted]

slocklin01 14y ago

Women were involved with programming from a fairly early date (you can find videos by Judith Clapp on youtube describing her involvement). As far as I know, they didn't have anything to do with the fault tolerant systems, or designing the computer itself. Therefore: yes, "grandfathers" is the correct word to use. Both in the English language sense, and in the gender sense in this instance. I'm sorry you think it is more productive to call out perceived slights to your gender, rather than doing something awesome. I guess it's a lot easier kvetching than, you know, actually doing something.

bluedanieru 14y ago

Thank you, rachelbythebay, for hijacking what could have been an interesting discussion about cold war tech, with your stupid fucking semantic feminist bullshit. As you continue your study of the English language (I assume you are not a native speaker because there are few native speakers dumb enough not to understand basic 3rd-grade things like gender in the English language (i.e. "Grandfathers" doesn't mean "our ancestors who are male" you fucking idiot)), you will begin to understand the folly of your statement here. Oh, what's this? You are a native speaker? Borne and raised in the USA, you say? Might I suggest then you Get The Fuck Out.

Dylan16807 14y ago
That is not even remotely helpful. And a top-level comment isn't a hijack.