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The Positive Programmer

202 points by googletron 14y ago

osmsiberiano 14y ago
There's a nice book about positive attitude, "Bright Sided" by Barbara Ehrenreich (IIRC). Follows the history of positive thinking from the epoch of calvinism up until today. Will be useful to read for you.
pekk 14y ago
People differ. Different people are also valid and can get things done, and may have unique strengths. Lincoln was classified as "melancholic." Pessimists may have more accurate views of many things. Do we really have to demand that everyone have the same personality as ourselves?
- readme 14y ago
  There's no sort of demand in the article. The advice there is to be a passive observer of human behavior rather than getting angry and engaging in flamewars. Given the current climate I see on HN, this advice is spot on.
russelluresti 14y ago
There's a reason developers complain and fixate on things that are bad or broken. It's because, for the most part, developers (and designers and UX people and many others) are natural problem solvers. If something isn't broken, okay, great, no need to focus on it. But if something is broken, to a problem solver, this is inexcusable. Things that are wrong need to be fixed. So when you see people complaining about things like startup culture or sexism in tech or whatever else, it's because these people see a problem that can be fixed, so they focus their efforts on fixing it. Most people who comment on these types of things aren't just complaining, they're offering solutions or their thoughts on what the "real problem" is. Personally, I feel the whole "positive attitude" thing is a detriment. People with "positive attitudes" tend to ignore problems because they don't want to upset others or make waves. These problems tend to fester until people like me (problem solvers) get so tired of it we just leave. If all you want is to be happy, fine, be happy, do your thing, ignore the problems. But if you want to make an impact, if you want to fix things and make them better for yourself and others, you have to focus on the things that are wrong and you have to complain and offer solutions and build solutions and piss people off until things get better. Making things better is always a fight; it's always a struggle; and you're unlikely to be very happy while trying to improve or fix broken things. Some people think it's worth it, others don't.
- readme 14y ago
  > so they focus their efforts on fixing it Complaining is not focusing your efforts on fixing something. Fixing is fixing. Complaining is complaining. When you complain about a problem instead of helping to build a solution, you become part of the problem. I don't think this article said anything bad about polite and constructive criticism.
  - russelluresti 14y ago
    I'm disagreeing with the articles point of view that the people on Hacker News and other outlets are just complaining about something. Often times people will take any sort of negative discussion and consider it "complaining" regardless of the actual content.
- tunesmith 14y ago
  I'm not sure that quite gets at it, though - because there's there are actually three branches here. Focusing on the problem, pretending there's no problem, and focusing on the solution. I think that one who focuses on solutions can be positive-focused without ignoring the problem.
  - russelluresti 14y ago
    True, there are three groups of people. But the article posits that just focusing on the negative is problem. I'm saying that it isn't - that you have to focus on the negatives and on the problems in order to solve them. The article specifically says not to focus on the negatives and instead focus on the positives. How do you fix problems (negatives) if you don't focus on them and instead focus on the positives (things that aren't broken)?
- miloshadzic 14y ago
  I don't think being positive implies that you're looking the other way when a problem appears. I've noticed recently that my twitter stream is filled with programmers complaining about things not working but... they're not solving them.
hypertexthero 14y ago
Highly recommended books: [Think on These Things](http://www.jiddu-krishnamurti.net/en/think-on-these-things http://www.jiddu-krishnamurti.net/en/think-on-these-things) and [The First and Last Freedom](http://www.jiddu-krishnamurti.net/en/the-first-and-last-freedom http://www.jiddu-krishnamurti.net/en/the-first-and-last-free...) by Jiddu Krishnamurti
jader201 14y ago
> The first (and only) thing that immediately came to mind was that I wanted to be a better person: I wanted to be smarter, more successful, and happy. When I read this, the first thing I thought of is, "Well that's your problem." To me, based on my experiences and what I've read and observed from other people, many people find the most happiness from focusing less on oneself, and focusing more on others. What can I do to enhance the life of someone else? What can I do to make a positive impact on others? What can I do to make a difference on the well being of society? But instead, it seems like the thought of the quoted sentence is focusing more on benefiting oneself -- make me smarter, make me more successful, make me happier. Don't get me wrong, I'm talking to myself as well, because I often find myself too focused on me. But I feel that when I instead start to focus on having a positive impact on someone else, that's when I start to experience genuine happiness. That's what I feel makes me a better person.
- Swizec 14y ago
  > What can I do to have a real impact on the well being of society? From my own experience, it is infinitely easier to make me better than to discover what I can do for society. I'd love to make products that help society, but damn it that's hard. Maybe if I just focus on myself I can make me happy. So far it's worked. I'm still looking for something I can do to help society. Until then, I'm working on things that help me level up to a point where I can execute on grand ideas.
  - jader201 14y ago
    But not even in the scope of society. I agree, that's hard, and if you can pull it off, you will reap great rewards. But I'm also talking about being a positive influence on others around you. To your friends, coworkers, family, significant other, etc. These are the people we can feasibly impact. Truly think about and focus on these relationships, and be a "better" person for the benefit of these people.
  - michaelrhansen 14y ago
    Just curious - why not jump on the grand ideas now? (I would assume the usual reasons.. financial, time, etc.)
hjay 14y ago
Loved this post. I've noticed many of the characteristics Randall described about his "old" self, and in the past few months I have made it a goal for myself to be less negative, and make a conscious effort to notice when I am being very negative.
gavinflud 14y ago
I wholeheartedly agree. I've noticed it a lot over the last while where many people in the software industry who write blog posts or contribute to forums just have an air of negativity about them. That being said, I'm sure no matter where you look there will be plenty of people who focus on the negatives in life, that's just in their nature. My preference is to be a positive person and focus on making my life (and hopefully other people's lives) happy and reading blog posts by similar minded people only reinforces that.
auctiontheory 14y ago
The How of Happiness is a research-backed yet very practical/usable book describing several techniques for finding happiness in life.
tudorconstantin 14y ago
Well, there are people plain dumb who needs me to be angry and help them correct their behaviour - they might not even be aware of that yet. In a more serious manner, drama is one thing that gains attention and strong, opinionated, emotionfull articles are getting attention. Add some mediocrity to the article by choosing a general, unspecialised subject on which everybody is able to express an opinion and that's it, you have a front page article.
stared 14y ago
Sure, frustration reduces happiness. However, many things were created (or fixed) exactly because of frustration (sometimes it is the best motivation for solving real, burning problems, instead of artificial ones). Likewise, perfectionism is almost always painful for both the person in charge (as things never get perfect) and co-workers, family, etc. But many times the effort is worth it, and afterwards it is better to look back at a masterpiece born in pain, than a slackly and broken thing created in a laid-back way. Perhaps it is why many creators (both in tech and arts) were depressive, but still able to accomplish a lot (though, sure, it is not a requirement). And sure, it is a matter of balance - one one hand to be able to spot real problems, on the other - still be motivated enough to finish them (spotting but being not able to fix is the worst state of mind, arguably).
pootch 14y ago
Im sure I make more money than you ever will, and yet I have worked in places in california where english was not spoken. Where every project was done in russia, or china, or india. And you say theres nothing to be negative about? Grow up soldier.
kvad 14y ago
Whats up Ran!, Great read on a day of bad news. But I agree with Jader201, its hard to be happy even if I'm personally successful. There are so many struggling. Maybe its cause I grew up playing competitive team sports. But seeing so many smart engineers out of work or pushed around is a shame. Its a choice to help others and make their happiness a priory. There are just so many people having a hard time right now. Personally, It hurts to see. I just cant put blinders on and focus on myself. Wish I could.
d--b 14y ago
that's not a very positive post
groby_b 14y ago
Or maybe we complain, to take the example of sexism, because there is a real problem. That needs to be addressed. And given that the first two items you address are code of conduct & sexism, I can't help but think "Of course a white male programmer wouldn't see an issue with that". To be very clear, not because I think all white males are mean-spirited misogynists. Most of them are pretty nice people, in my experience. But because being part of the majority blinds people to minority issues. And so, while I agree it's important to keep a positive outlook on life, I suggest that especially for issues that don't affect you directly, you take a deep look if this is really just "negativity", or if there's a real issue lurking beyond that. And then let's fix them. In a positive way :)
- rdegges 14y ago
  Author here. I completely agree with you that those are real problems. I have a great wife (and sisters) who have experienced varying levels of sexism in the technical world as well, and it really bothers me. I didn't mean in my article that we should all be blind to the bad things going on, I just feel like people quickly jump to negative conclusions and go into pitchfork mode all too quickly. Constantly focusing on the negatives can be a real emotional drain. It's a lot easier to focus on the positives and solving problems. For instance, it's quite great that PyCon this year had over 20% female attendees! That's a big accomplishment compared to previous years' stats. In addition, the code of conduct and public outreach made a lot of people feel welcome and safe attending the event, which is a big win for everyone! When bad things happen, they must certainly be brought to light -- but discussion around these problems could be far more constructive if people were to focus their efforts and energy on resolving issues and working together rather than blaming one another and becoming defensive or close-minded. The first step to solving problems is always to identify the problem, but the attitude you take to solving problems can make a huge difference both to yourself and to your peers. Thank you for the comment, I'm really surprised to see so many interesting viewpoints about this topic.
  - groby_b 14y ago
    > and go into pitchfork mode all too quickly Oh, I agree with you there. > but the attitude you take to solving problems can make a huge difference both to yourself and to your peers. That's an excellent insight, and one that's hard to keep in mind, at times. Especially if most attempts at fixing a problem are greeted by essentially a wave of bile and hate. It's easy to forget that most people are decent, when the Internet makes it easy to only see the loudest ones. That's where I'd say I disagree with you - it's not easy to focus on the positive. It depends on the reaction of your peers. Yes, we must be the change we wish to see in the world - but emulating Ghandi all the time is something only very few succeed at. Thank you for the reminder that it's worth trying, though.
jerryhuang100 14y ago
Great post! especially after the week-long PyCon rants on HN front-page.
cakeface 14y ago
I read that and felt that it was a negative post about negative posts.
dmiladinov 14y ago
> "Accept the behavior of others as it is, and don't allow yourself to project your desired behavior onto others." If you could only read one sentence in TFA, this should be it. To it, I would also just add: "Instead, show others how you would have them behave by behaving that way yourself."
era86 14y ago
I feel like most programmers have trained themselves to expect the worst. Pessimism forces you to write robust code. I'm not saying it's the only way to produce robust code, but it definitely helps. I think that's why a lot of HackerNews posts are pessimistic (negative).
kstenerud 14y ago
It's a culture thing, and mob mentality. A few leaders set the tone and then everyone runs with it, eager to make their mark. Every major event, especially those with strong emotional content, starts with a trigger post, followed by a deluge of "my take on X" posts, complete with 600+ thread comments, after which it slowly fades away, with only a few hardcore people shouting "why doesn't anyone care about X anymore!?" That's human. That's culture. The negativity will eventually fade once the general startup mood improves from massive infusions of cheap money again, at which point the same fad cycle will continue to occur, but with a much rosier tint.
superfresh 14y ago
It's also important to note how important positive behavior is on those around you. One thing I've learned since programming professionally is that it's a team sport -- doesn't have to be, but in most cases you'll develop along with others. When you develops habits of cynicism and negativity it spreads. To those junior, to your direct peers, and especially to non-technical teammates. I've found that by setting a positive tone, especially in somewhat negative situations, speaks volumes. Cynicism is easy. Pushing those feelings aside and remaining stoic in tough times helps tremendously.
Draco6slayer 14y ago
This is stupid and nobody likes it. Go back to your terrible life as a terrible person who nobody likes. But in all seriousness, I think you do have to take the negative with the positive, so long as both are constructive. It'd be stupid to take something sexist and cast it aside and make jokes about it as if it doesn't matter. Because it does matter. The technical community is negative because it has certain requirements that are not met. The government is doing bad things, as are private corporations. We cannot ignore these things because they are negative. But I agree that we should find positives. The trick is that, in good discussion, positive and negative are unimportant. What matters is constructiveness. Saying 'This is great!' is just as useless as saying 'This sucks!'. Positive conversation is fine, but it is not necessary in intelligent discussion, because not every topic is inherently positive.
justplay 14y ago
pro tip : To gain the twitter followers start tweeting positive views .
Sputum 14y ago
Thanks, weeaboo
ryderm 14y ago
There is so much irony in this post and these comments. Pretty funny if you ask me.
xsuvea 14y ago
Despite not getting into programming until I was 26, having come from an arts background of study, I've been programming applications that are used by hundreds of people since then. I don't code through the night, am not good enough to be hired by a start up or use rails or the latest tool the bullies of the tech world are going on about. No one I write for gives a flying fuck about anything except an application that is easy to use and does everything they asked for. Any of the incredible languages out there are capable of giving users what they want right now so no need to keep banging on about the latest version or giving out about the other camps.
languagehacker 14y ago
Vacuous, Zig-Ziglar-esque handwaving with an unnecessary bad anime drawing. Way to get on HN, though. Everything else looks really educational in comparison, so I'm sure the rest of the authors appreciate it.
- kevincrane 14y ago
  Alright Debbie Downer.
wfunction 14y ago
Am I the only one who feels this post is also negative, but only in a meta- sense?
greghinch 14y ago
I've been working as a developer for about 10 years, and was involved in some tech communities for about 6 or 7 years prior to that (early high school, doing things like LAN parties, Linux install fests, and generally socializing amongst the "nerd" set). If there's an overwhelmingly common personality defect I've seen amongst tech aficionados, it's a proclivity towards the negative. My observation is that people with highly logical thought processes can often end up developing an outwardly negative approach to most aspects of life. Perhaps it's due to frustrations of dealing with people not as logical as us. Perhaps its a genetic personality defect. While I can't say for certain, I know I'm certainly guilty of it, and though I've made an effort to be better about it (and am), it's still a kind of "default" response I have to the unexpected or things that don't follow the "path" that I imagined. I see a similar pattern amongst many folks in the groups I mentioned. I will say if anything, the overall demeanor of those groups has become a lot more positive than I remember it being 5-10 (or more) years ago.
- erydo 14y ago
  I can only speak for myself, but I think the cause is often practical: good things are often baselines that don't need to be changed and can usually be ignored more than the bad things which actually do need to be addressed. This tends to lead to a very negative outlook, but is more a consequence of pragmatic mental habit than anything. That said, like everyone else I've noticed that pragmatic negativity doesn't translate well to other parts of life. Switching mindsets from "what's wrong and how does it need to be fixed" to "what's enjoyable" can be quite a leap when you're used to thinking a certain way.
  - doug363 14y ago
    I've got a similar view on the situation - perhaps technical people are trained or enculturated to look out for the things that can be improved/fixed, rather than taking time to celebrate progress and achievement.
- keithwhor 14y ago
  I think using "highly logical thought processes" to excuse (or at least explain) highly negative and antisocial behaviour is an unfortunate, but common, fallacy among some very intelligent people. It's great that you're taking steps to overcome negativity you've seen in yourself. Did you notice, however, that the only explanations you went to for these negative approaches were "dealing with people not as logical as us" and "genetic personality defect"? What's the common thread in these answers? They're both examples of blame externalization (and thus perserving cognitive dissonance - you're great the way you are!). If it's other people, you're not in the wrong, you don't need to change. If it's genetic, then it's hard-coded, and try as you might, you're going to have a hell of a time fixing it. Now maybe you're right, and maybe you're wrong. Who am I to say? Your points aren't invalid, just biased, and it's clear to see where it's coming from. But I think the best way to negate this negativity (ha, ha?) is by having people turn the mirror on themselves, first and foremost, before judging others. How much of this negativity could be spared to begin with if people just thought about how they would feel in someone else's shoes? It's awesome that you've seen an upward trend in positivity. You said you've been working on it yourself, you're definitely part of what's making it better!
andyl 14y ago
When I discovered Hacker News, I loved it because it seemed to be 100% about technology and internet startups. It doesn't feel like that to me any more. I've been involved with other sites where the political discussions overwhelmed the core topic, and the audience just collapsed in a tailspin of high emotions. I hope Hacker News doesn't go that route.
- ryankey721 14y ago
  I kind of like the mixed bag that Hacker News seems to be. I'm pretty new here, but I enjoy reading about the future of programming languages alongside posts about Marcus Aurelius' writings. It just seems that it's mostly content about being the best you that you can be and having a broad range of knowledge.
  - rdegges 14y ago
    Agreed, I love the diversity which is why I continue reading HN. I like a good balance of topics, keeps things interesting (and more importantly, continues to get me interested in other subjects / topics).
    - bratsche 14y ago
      I feel like the role of diversity is better served by a place like reddit.
  - eric-hu 14y ago
    Do you think the recent "Inappropriate comments at Pycon 2013 called out" thread contributed to that mixed bag in a good way? I worded that carefully. I don't want to draw out sides on that thread topic, just whether it contributed to an educational atmosphere and meaningful discussion on HN.
    - duaneb 14y ago
      I think it's a discussion that needs to take place. I am not sure HN is the place to do it, but where else?
zachdonovan 14y ago
Reading this article reminded me of this post from Myles Recny: http://edu.mkrecny.com/thoughts/be-nice-to-programmers http://edu.mkrecny.com/thoughts/be-nice-to-programmers Both that article and this one resonated with me on a certain level. Software development can be such a hypercritical field, involving so much self-recrimination. That, in turn, reminds me of Alan Cooper's characterization of Homo Logicus in The Inmates Are Running The Asylum. Programmers are forced to look at all possibilities, and are trained to point out even extremely unlikely cases. This emphasis on edge-cases is confusing and counter-intuitive to non-programmers, who tend to think in terms of probable cases. Perhaps too much concentrated attention on possible cases is turning us all sour.
ilaksh 14y ago
I remember sitting in a meeting some years ago and we were discussing a new issue tracking system that was being demoed on the projector. The editor component took a full 10 to 15 seconds to load into the page every time. So I said "that editor sucks". It was one of the few things I had said during the meeting. The manager was very irritated and said something like "We don't tolerate that kind of negativity here". And continued, as if I had said something awful. He said something like "unless you have a solution to a problem" something something in the process of explaining why I shouldn't say that. So five minutes after the meeting I found out how to disable the slow graphical editor and then the issue tracker became usable for normal people. Well, I guess I am a negative person then. If it sucks, it sucks. I will try to take some of this advice constructively though, because I do spend a lot of time focusing on problems that need to be solved. But I can't help but think that the reason a lot of people aren't so critical or 'negative' is that they have just given up on fixing things, or are just so generally ineffective at problem solving that they naturally accept everything as it is. I would rather be a negative bastard who identifies and solves problems than a happy ineffectual drone who just goes along to get along and accepts the status quo no matter how broken.
- SoftwareMaven 14y ago
  If you solve problems, negativity isn't as much of a problem. If you spend all your time finding problems that other people should be solving, that is more problematic. I think we tend to be negative, especially wrt software, because we know how it could be. So we apply that filter without also applying the "what did it take to get where it is" filter.
- lutterkd 14y ago
  The problem isn't that you raise the issue, the problem is the aggressive language "sucks". Not has problems, not is limited, "sucks". The guy writing it probably knows it has problems. He's probably working really hard on it. Maybe he stayed late at work to try to improve it, instead of seeing his girlfriend. And you come along and just say "sucks". Even if he wasn't there, you're still having a go at him in front of other people. Being polite, diplomatic, calm and considered is not being an "ineffectual drone". You're falling into that mindset that you have to be a cunt to get stuff done. You don't.
shadowrunner 14y ago
The internet is dehumanizing. I see the effect in myself. We'd never say half the things in person that we say online. The instantaneous nature of computers has made us all impatient brats. Especially you.
Ensorceled 14y ago
This is NOT new. You could see this same problem on usenet in the 80's and on Slashdot. Programmers are often negative, it's pretty much an archetype.
skrebbel 14y ago
Snap out of that filter bubble, programming community != hacker news and hacker news != programming community. Upvotes for scandal outrages don't mean we've all become grumpy.
jasonkester 14y ago
The more we tolerate this here, the more it will become the norm. HN's most attractive feature from day one has always been the positive, intelligent, supportive community. Those are not traits you tend to find in your typical 9-5 programmer (in my experience, at least), and are the exact opposite of what you find in the communities that most of our early adopters fled from (Slashdot was already hopeless by 2007, and programming.reddit.com was already headed that way). But those other communities are dying, and this place has taken over their role as The Place to Talk About Tech Stuff. So we see a lot of their users coming across, bringing with them the general depressive negativity and inclination to snark and hostility. This behavior sometimes doesn't get swatted down fast enough nor ruthlessly enough and bad comments are left to stand. People see these comments and think they're acceptable. And the standards erode. There's not much to be done about it, unfortunately. We can't kick everybody out, and it's not yet quite bad enough to form a new community and abandon this place to the rabble. Still, it's worth at least trying to fight. Flag ruthlessly, downvote comments that don't belong here, based on tone rather than disagreement. Upvote the few good things that do in fact belong here. Write good comments and otherwise behave the way you want to see others behave.
- richardjordan 14y ago
  You're right this is a cycle I've seen time and again online. I've been using the Internet since before the web, and seen this cycle again and again... newsgroups becoming popular, the negative argumentative types moving in, folks who weren't that way getting dragged into the negativity (I know I've been dragged there myself), then they just become festering shells of what they once were as the nice people move on and just the negativity remains to harshly parody the original community... The same has happened with web community after web community I've enjoyed only to see them get popular... slashdot was good once. Heck, there was even a time when you could get a civilized conversation in TechCrunch comment threads. So, with the obvious caveat of http://www.despair.com/dysfunction.html http://www.despair.com/dysfunction.html ...I sincerely hope that HN doesn't end up going down that road too. Long winded way of saying I like your comment and I'm gonna try to take the advice.
  - 14y ago
hallomac2013 14y ago
Thank you for this very enlightening post.
Nursie 14y ago
As a natural cynic and old ex goth, let me say that being positive is really hard work. But worth it. I noticed one day in an old job that two distinct things happened when management presented an idea to the engineering teams. Nearly everyone (self included to a greater or lesser extent) would start racking their brains for reasons why this, whatever it is, is a terrible idea that must be argued against, or why it just straight out couldn't work. All except one guy, a friend and one of the brightest sparks on the team, who would start thinking of how he could implement it and what new, interesting tech he could use to get there. Sometimes he would come to the conclusion it was a bad idea, or impossible, but he didn't look for that first. As a result he did more novel, interesting work than the rest of the team(s) who generally spent their time mumbling and complaining. That's when I decided to try and be that way too.

202 points by googletron 14y ago

There's a nice book about positive attitude, "Bright Sided" by Barbara Ehrenreich (IIRC). Follows the history of positive thinking from the epoch of calvinism up until today. Will be useful to read for you.

pekk 14y ago

People differ. Different people are also valid and can get things done, and may have unique strengths. Lincoln was classified as "melancholic." Pessimists may have more accurate views of many things. Do we really have to demand that everyone have the same personality as ourselves?

readme 14y ago
There's no sort of demand in the article. The advice there is to be a passive observer of human behavior rather than getting angry and engaging in flamewars. Given the current climate I see on HN, this advice is spot on.

russelluresti 14y ago

There's a reason developers complain and fixate on things that are bad or broken. It's because, for the most part, developers (and designers and UX people and many others) are natural problem solvers. If something isn't broken, okay, great, no need to focus on it. But if something is broken, to a problem solver, this is inexcusable. Things that are wrong need to be fixed. So when you see people complaining about things like startup culture or sexism in tech or whatever else, it's because these people see a problem that can be fixed, so they focus their efforts on fixing it. Most people who comment on these types of things aren't just complaining, they're offering solutions or their thoughts on what the "real problem" is. Personally, I feel the whole "positive attitude" thing is a detriment. People with "positive attitudes" tend to ignore problems because they don't want to upset others or make waves. These problems tend to fester until people like me (problem solvers) get so tired of it we just leave. If all you want is to be happy, fine, be happy, do your thing, ignore the problems. But if you want to make an impact, if you want to fix things and make them better for yourself and others, you have to focus on the things that are wrong and you have to complain and offer solutions and build solutions and piss people off until things get better. Making things better is always a fight; it's always a struggle; and you're unlikely to be very happy while trying to improve or fix broken things. Some people think it's worth it, others don't.

readme 14y ago
> so they focus their efforts on fixing it Complaining is not focusing your efforts on fixing something. Fixing is fixing. Complaining is complaining. When you complain about a problem instead of helping to build a solution, you become part of the problem. I don't think this article said anything bad about polite and constructive criticism.
- russelluresti 14y ago
  I'm disagreeing with the articles point of view that the people on Hacker News and other outlets are just complaining about something. Often times people will take any sort of negative discussion and consider it "complaining" regardless of the actual content.
tunesmith 14y ago
I'm not sure that quite gets at it, though - because there's there are actually three branches here. Focusing on the problem, pretending there's no problem, and focusing on the solution. I think that one who focuses on solutions can be positive-focused without ignoring the problem.
- russelluresti 14y ago
  True, there are three groups of people. But the article posits that just focusing on the negative is problem. I'm saying that it isn't - that you have to focus on the negatives and on the problems in order to solve them. The article specifically says not to focus on the negatives and instead focus on the positives. How do you fix problems (negatives) if you don't focus on them and instead focus on the positives (things that aren't broken)?
miloshadzic 14y ago
I don't think being positive implies that you're looking the other way when a problem appears. I've noticed recently that my twitter stream is filled with programmers complaining about things not working but... they're not solving them.

hypertexthero 14y ago

Highly recommended books: [Think on These Things](http://www.jiddu-krishnamurti.net/en/think-on-these-things http://www.jiddu-krishnamurti.net/en/think-on-these-things) and [The First and Last Freedom](http://www.jiddu-krishnamurti.net/en/the-first-and-last-freedom http://www.jiddu-krishnamurti.net/en/the-first-and-last-free...) by Jiddu Krishnamurti

jader201 14y ago

> The first (and only) thing that immediately came to mind was that I wanted to be a better person: I wanted to be smarter, more successful, and happy. When I read this, the first thing I thought of is, "Well that's your problem." To me, based on my experiences and what I've read and observed from other people, many people find the most happiness from focusing less on oneself, and focusing more on others. What can I do to enhance the life of someone else? What can I do to make a positive impact on others? What can I do to make a difference on the well being of society? But instead, it seems like the thought of the quoted sentence is focusing more on benefiting oneself -- make me smarter, make me more successful, make me happier. Don't get me wrong, I'm talking to myself as well, because I often find myself too focused on me. But I feel that when I instead start to focus on having a positive impact on someone else, that's when I start to experience genuine happiness. That's what I feel makes me a better person.

Swizec 14y ago
> What can I do to have a real impact on the well being of society? From my own experience, it is infinitely easier to make me better than to discover what I can do for society. I'd love to make products that help society, but damn it that's hard. Maybe if I just focus on myself I can make me happy. So far it's worked. I'm still looking for something I can do to help society. Until then, I'm working on things that help me level up to a point where I can execute on grand ideas.
- jader201 14y ago
  But not even in the scope of society. I agree, that's hard, and if you can pull it off, you will reap great rewards. But I'm also talking about being a positive influence on others around you. To your friends, coworkers, family, significant other, etc. These are the people we can feasibly impact. Truly think about and focus on these relationships, and be a "better" person for the benefit of these people.
- michaelrhansen 14y ago
  Just curious - why not jump on the grand ideas now? (I would assume the usual reasons.. financial, time, etc.)

hjay 14y ago

Loved this post. I've noticed many of the characteristics Randall described about his "old" self, and in the past few months I have made it a goal for myself to be less negative, and make a conscious effort to notice when I am being very negative.

gavinflud 14y ago

I wholeheartedly agree. I've noticed it a lot over the last while where many people in the software industry who write blog posts or contribute to forums just have an air of negativity about them. That being said, I'm sure no matter where you look there will be plenty of people who focus on the negatives in life, that's just in their nature. My preference is to be a positive person and focus on making my life (and hopefully other people's lives) happy and reading blog posts by similar minded people only reinforces that.

auctiontheory 14y ago

The How of Happiness is a research-backed yet very practical/usable book describing several techniques for finding happiness in life.

tudorconstantin 14y ago

Well, there are people plain dumb who needs me to be angry and help them correct their behaviour - they might not even be aware of that yet. In a more serious manner, drama is one thing that gains attention and strong, opinionated, emotionfull articles are getting attention. Add some mediocrity to the article by choosing a general, unspecialised subject on which everybody is able to express an opinion and that's it, you have a front page article.

stared 14y ago

Sure, frustration reduces happiness. However, many things were created (or fixed) exactly because of frustration (sometimes it is the best motivation for solving real, burning problems, instead of artificial ones). Likewise, perfectionism is almost always painful for both the person in charge (as things never get perfect) and co-workers, family, etc. But many times the effort is worth it, and afterwards it is better to look back at a masterpiece born in pain, than a slackly and broken thing created in a laid-back way. Perhaps it is why many creators (both in tech and arts) were depressive, but still able to accomplish a lot (though, sure, it is not a requirement). And sure, it is a matter of balance - one one hand to be able to spot real problems, on the other - still be motivated enough to finish them (spotting but being not able to fix is the worst state of mind, arguably).

pootch 14y ago

Im sure I make more money than you ever will, and yet I have worked in places in california where english was not spoken. Where every project was done in russia, or china, or india. And you say theres nothing to be negative about? Grow up soldier.

kvad 14y ago

Whats up Ran!, Great read on a day of bad news. But I agree with Jader201, its hard to be happy even if I'm personally successful. There are so many struggling. Maybe its cause I grew up playing competitive team sports. But seeing so many smart engineers out of work or pushed around is a shame. Its a choice to help others and make their happiness a priory. There are just so many people having a hard time right now. Personally, It hurts to see. I just cant put blinders on and focus on myself. Wish I could.

d--b 14y ago

that's not a very positive post

groby_b 14y ago

Or maybe we complain, to take the example of sexism, because there is a real problem. That needs to be addressed. And given that the first two items you address are code of conduct & sexism, I can't help but think "Of course a white male programmer wouldn't see an issue with that". To be very clear, not because I think all white males are mean-spirited misogynists. Most of them are pretty nice people, in my experience. But because being part of the majority blinds people to minority issues. And so, while I agree it's important to keep a positive outlook on life, I suggest that especially for issues that don't affect you directly, you take a deep look if this is really just "negativity", or if there's a real issue lurking beyond that. And then let's fix them. In a positive way :)

rdegges 14y ago
Author here. I completely agree with you that those are real problems. I have a great wife (and sisters) who have experienced varying levels of sexism in the technical world as well, and it really bothers me. I didn't mean in my article that we should all be blind to the bad things going on, I just feel like people quickly jump to negative conclusions and go into pitchfork mode all too quickly. Constantly focusing on the negatives can be a real emotional drain. It's a lot easier to focus on the positives and solving problems. For instance, it's quite great that PyCon this year had over 20% female attendees! That's a big accomplishment compared to previous years' stats. In addition, the code of conduct and public outreach made a lot of people feel welcome and safe attending the event, which is a big win for everyone! When bad things happen, they must certainly be brought to light -- but discussion around these problems could be far more constructive if people were to focus their efforts and energy on resolving issues and working together rather than blaming one another and becoming defensive or close-minded. The first step to solving problems is always to identify the problem, but the attitude you take to solving problems can make a huge difference both to yourself and to your peers. Thank you for the comment, I'm really surprised to see so many interesting viewpoints about this topic.
- groby_b 14y ago
  > and go into pitchfork mode all too quickly Oh, I agree with you there. > but the attitude you take to solving problems can make a huge difference both to yourself and to your peers. That's an excellent insight, and one that's hard to keep in mind, at times. Especially if most attempts at fixing a problem are greeted by essentially a wave of bile and hate. It's easy to forget that most people are decent, when the Internet makes it easy to only see the loudest ones. That's where I'd say I disagree with you - it's not easy to focus on the positive. It depends on the reaction of your peers. Yes, we must be the change we wish to see in the world - but emulating Ghandi all the time is something only very few succeed at. Thank you for the reminder that it's worth trying, though.

jerryhuang100 14y ago

Great post! especially after the week-long PyCon rants on HN front-page.

cakeface 14y ago

I read that and felt that it was a negative post about negative posts.

dmiladinov 14y ago

> "Accept the behavior of others as it is, and don't allow yourself to project your desired behavior onto others." If you could only read one sentence in TFA, this should be it. To it, I would also just add: "Instead, show others how you would have them behave by behaving that way yourself."

era86 14y ago

I feel like most programmers have trained themselves to expect the worst. Pessimism forces you to write robust code. I'm not saying it's the only way to produce robust code, but it definitely helps. I think that's why a lot of HackerNews posts are pessimistic (negative).

kstenerud 14y ago

It's a culture thing, and mob mentality. A few leaders set the tone and then everyone runs with it, eager to make their mark. Every major event, especially those with strong emotional content, starts with a trigger post, followed by a deluge of "my take on X" posts, complete with 600+ thread comments, after which it slowly fades away, with only a few hardcore people shouting "why doesn't anyone care about X anymore!?" That's human. That's culture. The negativity will eventually fade once the general startup mood improves from massive infusions of cheap money again, at which point the same fad cycle will continue to occur, but with a much rosier tint.

superfresh 14y ago

It's also important to note how important positive behavior is on those around you. One thing I've learned since programming professionally is that it's a team sport -- doesn't have to be, but in most cases you'll develop along with others. When you develops habits of cynicism and negativity it spreads. To those junior, to your direct peers, and especially to non-technical teammates. I've found that by setting a positive tone, especially in somewhat negative situations, speaks volumes. Cynicism is easy. Pushing those feelings aside and remaining stoic in tough times helps tremendously.

Draco6slayer 14y ago

This is stupid and nobody likes it. Go back to your terrible life as a terrible person who nobody likes. But in all seriousness, I think you do have to take the negative with the positive, so long as both are constructive. It'd be stupid to take something sexist and cast it aside and make jokes about it as if it doesn't matter. Because it does matter. The technical community is negative because it has certain requirements that are not met. The government is doing bad things, as are private corporations. We cannot ignore these things because they are negative. But I agree that we should find positives. The trick is that, in good discussion, positive and negative are unimportant. What matters is constructiveness. Saying 'This is great!' is just as useless as saying 'This sucks!'. Positive conversation is fine, but it is not necessary in intelligent discussion, because not every topic is inherently positive.

justplay 14y ago

pro tip : To gain the twitter followers start tweeting positive views .

Sputum 14y ago

Thanks, weeaboo

ryderm 14y ago

There is so much irony in this post and these comments. Pretty funny if you ask me.

xsuvea 14y ago

Despite not getting into programming until I was 26, having come from an arts background of study, I've been programming applications that are used by hundreds of people since then. I don't code through the night, am not good enough to be hired by a start up or use rails or the latest tool the bullies of the tech world are going on about. No one I write for gives a flying fuck about anything except an application that is easy to use and does everything they asked for. Any of the incredible languages out there are capable of giving users what they want right now so no need to keep banging on about the latest version or giving out about the other camps.

languagehacker 14y ago

Vacuous, Zig-Ziglar-esque handwaving with an unnecessary bad anime drawing. Way to get on HN, though. Everything else looks really educational in comparison, so I'm sure the rest of the authors appreciate it.

kevincrane 14y ago
Alright Debbie Downer.

wfunction 14y ago

Am I the only one who feels this post is also negative, but only in a meta- sense?

greghinch 14y ago

I've been working as a developer for about 10 years, and was involved in some tech communities for about 6 or 7 years prior to that (early high school, doing things like LAN parties, Linux install fests, and generally socializing amongst the "nerd" set). If there's an overwhelmingly common personality defect I've seen amongst tech aficionados, it's a proclivity towards the negative. My observation is that people with highly logical thought processes can often end up developing an outwardly negative approach to most aspects of life. Perhaps it's due to frustrations of dealing with people not as logical as us. Perhaps its a genetic personality defect. While I can't say for certain, I know I'm certainly guilty of it, and though I've made an effort to be better about it (and am), it's still a kind of "default" response I have to the unexpected or things that don't follow the "path" that I imagined. I see a similar pattern amongst many folks in the groups I mentioned. I will say if anything, the overall demeanor of those groups has become a lot more positive than I remember it being 5-10 (or more) years ago.

erydo 14y ago
I can only speak for myself, but I think the cause is often practical: good things are often baselines that don't need to be changed and can usually be ignored more than the bad things which actually do need to be addressed. This tends to lead to a very negative outlook, but is more a consequence of pragmatic mental habit than anything. That said, like everyone else I've noticed that pragmatic negativity doesn't translate well to other parts of life. Switching mindsets from "what's wrong and how does it need to be fixed" to "what's enjoyable" can be quite a leap when you're used to thinking a certain way.
- doug363 14y ago
  I've got a similar view on the situation - perhaps technical people are trained or enculturated to look out for the things that can be improved/fixed, rather than taking time to celebrate progress and achievement.
keithwhor 14y ago
I think using "highly logical thought processes" to excuse (or at least explain) highly negative and antisocial behaviour is an unfortunate, but common, fallacy among some very intelligent people. It's great that you're taking steps to overcome negativity you've seen in yourself. Did you notice, however, that the only explanations you went to for these negative approaches were "dealing with people not as logical as us" and "genetic personality defect"? What's the common thread in these answers? They're both examples of blame externalization (and thus perserving cognitive dissonance - you're great the way you are!). If it's other people, you're not in the wrong, you don't need to change. If it's genetic, then it's hard-coded, and try as you might, you're going to have a hell of a time fixing it. Now maybe you're right, and maybe you're wrong. Who am I to say? Your points aren't invalid, just biased, and it's clear to see where it's coming from. But I think the best way to negate this negativity (ha, ha?) is by having people turn the mirror on themselves, first and foremost, before judging others. How much of this negativity could be spared to begin with if people just thought about how they would feel in someone else's shoes? It's awesome that you've seen an upward trend in positivity. You said you've been working on it yourself, you're definitely part of what's making it better!

andyl 14y ago

When I discovered Hacker News, I loved it because it seemed to be 100% about technology and internet startups. It doesn't feel like that to me any more. I've been involved with other sites where the political discussions overwhelmed the core topic, and the audience just collapsed in a tailspin of high emotions. I hope Hacker News doesn't go that route.

ryankey721 14y ago
I kind of like the mixed bag that Hacker News seems to be. I'm pretty new here, but I enjoy reading about the future of programming languages alongside posts about Marcus Aurelius' writings. It just seems that it's mostly content about being the best you that you can be and having a broad range of knowledge.
- rdegges 14y ago
  Agreed, I love the diversity which is why I continue reading HN. I like a good balance of topics, keeps things interesting (and more importantly, continues to get me interested in other subjects / topics).
  - bratsche 14y ago
    I feel like the role of diversity is better served by a place like reddit.
- eric-hu 14y ago
  Do you think the recent "Inappropriate comments at Pycon 2013 called out" thread contributed to that mixed bag in a good way? I worded that carefully. I don't want to draw out sides on that thread topic, just whether it contributed to an educational atmosphere and meaningful discussion on HN.
  - duaneb 14y ago
    I think it's a discussion that needs to take place. I am not sure HN is the place to do it, but where else?

zachdonovan 14y ago

Reading this article reminded me of this post from Myles Recny: http://edu.mkrecny.com/thoughts/be-nice-to-programmers http://edu.mkrecny.com/thoughts/be-nice-to-programmers Both that article and this one resonated with me on a certain level. Software development can be such a hypercritical field, involving so much self-recrimination. That, in turn, reminds me of Alan Cooper's characterization of Homo Logicus in The Inmates Are Running The Asylum. Programmers are forced to look at all possibilities, and are trained to point out even extremely unlikely cases. This emphasis on edge-cases is confusing and counter-intuitive to non-programmers, who tend to think in terms of probable cases. Perhaps too much concentrated attention on possible cases is turning us all sour.

ilaksh 14y ago

I remember sitting in a meeting some years ago and we were discussing a new issue tracking system that was being demoed on the projector. The editor component took a full 10 to 15 seconds to load into the page every time. So I said "that editor sucks". It was one of the few things I had said during the meeting. The manager was very irritated and said something like "We don't tolerate that kind of negativity here". And continued, as if I had said something awful. He said something like "unless you have a solution to a problem" something something in the process of explaining why I shouldn't say that. So five minutes after the meeting I found out how to disable the slow graphical editor and then the issue tracker became usable for normal people. Well, I guess I am a negative person then. If it sucks, it sucks. I will try to take some of this advice constructively though, because I do spend a lot of time focusing on problems that need to be solved. But I can't help but think that the reason a lot of people aren't so critical or 'negative' is that they have just given up on fixing things, or are just so generally ineffective at problem solving that they naturally accept everything as it is. I would rather be a negative bastard who identifies and solves problems than a happy ineffectual drone who just goes along to get along and accepts the status quo no matter how broken.

SoftwareMaven 14y ago
If you solve problems, negativity isn't as much of a problem. If you spend all your time finding problems that other people should be solving, that is more problematic. I think we tend to be negative, especially wrt software, because we know how it could be. So we apply that filter without also applying the "what did it take to get where it is" filter.
lutterkd 14y ago
The problem isn't that you raise the issue, the problem is the aggressive language "sucks". Not has problems, not is limited, "sucks". The guy writing it probably knows it has problems. He's probably working really hard on it. Maybe he stayed late at work to try to improve it, instead of seeing his girlfriend. And you come along and just say "sucks". Even if he wasn't there, you're still having a go at him in front of other people. Being polite, diplomatic, calm and considered is not being an "ineffectual drone". You're falling into that mindset that you have to be a cunt to get stuff done. You don't.

shadowrunner 14y ago

The internet is dehumanizing. I see the effect in myself. We'd never say half the things in person that we say online. The instantaneous nature of computers has made us all impatient brats. Especially you.

Ensorceled 14y ago

This is NOT new. You could see this same problem on usenet in the 80's and on Slashdot. Programmers are often negative, it's pretty much an archetype.

skrebbel 14y ago

Snap out of that filter bubble, programming community != hacker news and hacker news != programming community. Upvotes for scandal outrages don't mean we've all become grumpy.

jasonkester 14y ago

The more we tolerate this here, the more it will become the norm. HN's most attractive feature from day one has always been the positive, intelligent, supportive community. Those are not traits you tend to find in your typical 9-5 programmer (in my experience, at least), and are the exact opposite of what you find in the communities that most of our early adopters fled from (Slashdot was already hopeless by 2007, and programming.reddit.com was already headed that way). But those other communities are dying, and this place has taken over their role as The Place to Talk About Tech Stuff. So we see a lot of their users coming across, bringing with them the general depressive negativity and inclination to snark and hostility. This behavior sometimes doesn't get swatted down fast enough nor ruthlessly enough and bad comments are left to stand. People see these comments and think they're acceptable. And the standards erode. There's not much to be done about it, unfortunately. We can't kick everybody out, and it's not yet quite bad enough to form a new community and abandon this place to the rabble. Still, it's worth at least trying to fight. Flag ruthlessly, downvote comments that don't belong here, based on tone rather than disagreement. Upvote the few good things that do in fact belong here. Write good comments and otherwise behave the way you want to see others behave.

richardjordan 14y ago
You're right this is a cycle I've seen time and again online. I've been using the Internet since before the web, and seen this cycle again and again... newsgroups becoming popular, the negative argumentative types moving in, folks who weren't that way getting dragged into the negativity (I know I've been dragged there myself), then they just become festering shells of what they once were as the nice people move on and just the negativity remains to harshly parody the original community... The same has happened with web community after web community I've enjoyed only to see them get popular... slashdot was good once. Heck, there was even a time when you could get a civilized conversation in TechCrunch comment threads. So, with the obvious caveat of http://www.despair.com/dysfunction.html http://www.despair.com/dysfunction.html ...I sincerely hope that HN doesn't end up going down that road too. Long winded way of saying I like your comment and I'm gonna try to take the advice.
- 14y ago

hallomac2013 14y ago

Thank you for this very enlightening post.

Nursie 14y ago

As a natural cynic and old ex goth, let me say that being positive is really hard work. But worth it. I noticed one day in an old job that two distinct things happened when management presented an idea to the engineering teams. Nearly everyone (self included to a greater or lesser extent) would start racking their brains for reasons why this, whatever it is, is a terrible idea that must be argued against, or why it just straight out couldn't work. All except one guy, a friend and one of the brightest sparks on the team, who would start thinking of how he could implement it and what new, interesting tech he could use to get there. Sometimes he would come to the conclusion it was a bad idea, or impossible, but he didn't look for that first. As a result he did more novel, interesting work than the rest of the team(s) who generally spent their time mumbling and complaining. That's when I decided to try and be that way too.