5 ms·

I don't think that "my wife doesn't understand why I like technology" is a sexist comment. Substitute husband and it would read just the same.

by coopdog 14y ago

rmrfrmrf 14y ago
Haha, once again, the Geek Feminism wiki addresses this EXACT argument. ----- "Suck it up and deal" is a common response to examples of gender discrimination. For example, suppose "Bob" asks "Alice" for an example of why female students may feel unwelcome in computer science classrooms, and "Alice" says, "Suppose you walk into a classroom and the first thing you hear is the lecturer saying 'we need to make our systems so usable that even your mom could use them'; would you feel more or less welcome?" It's common for "Bob" to respond that he wouldn't feel unwelcome in such a situation if he were a woman, because he would just suck it up and deal; after all, "Bob" would say, computer scientists frequently use "so easy your mom could use it" as a benchmark, and anyway, why would he let that stop him from being interested in computer science? As a rhetorical device, "Suck it up and deal" serves as a double bind: if you fail to give examples of sexist comments or behavior, you're accused of inventing a problem. If you do give examples, almost any example can be dismissed as something women would be able to deal with if they weren't oversensitive / overemotional / not really interested in technology anyway. "Suck it up and deal" is also a convenient way of disregarding the emotional labor required to, in fact, suck it up and deal (something almost any woman in a technical career already does frequently just to get through the day), the toll that such labor takes on a person over time, and the energy it drains that could otherwise go into work. Like the Male experience trump card, "Suck it up and deal" is a way for people who have never had sexist comments aimed at them to deny the reality that such comments have an effect. Source: http://geekfeminism.wikia.com/wiki/Suck_it_up_and_deal http://geekfeminism.wikia.com/wiki/Suck_it_up_and_deal
- grannyg00se 14y ago
  That doesn't seem to apply. "Suck it up and deal" wasn't the suggestion, it was a clear case of lack of understanding of the issue. "Suck it up and deal" implies that the person acknowledges that there is a problem (something to "suck up") but that it is not very significant and should be ignored. The real problem here is that the "my wife doesn't understand..." statement implies a camaraderie among men to the exclusion of women. And that type of exclusion over time will lead to feelings of unwelcome. Even if there is no direct offense or exclusion intended. This particular issue likely wouldn't be an issue at all if there wasn't such a gender disparity in the first place because it would be more difficult to mistakenly imply exclusion when there is no hint of exclusion in the environment. And that's sometimes the problem with these difficult to appreciate minority issues. It's hard to even understand what the issue is without being part of the minority.
- snogglethorpe 14y ago
  But ... the example used in that description doesn't match this case at all. "My wife doesn't ..." is a simple descriptive (and presumably accurate unless there's some reason to believe otherwise) statement about a specific person, not a stereotype. Complaining that your spouse doesn't understand/appreciate something that's important to you is very, very, common—regardless of their sex—because the opinion of one's spouse is something most people value and worry about. If the person had said "my wife, being a woman, doesn't ..." then it would be a stereotype, and maybe the entry you quoted would be relevant... [EDIT: reading the original quote in context, it actually makes more sense there: it's easy to imagine that a line intended as a speaker's joke at a conference really is intended to riff off of a common stereotype (and the assumption that the audience shares this experience), rather than being a simple complaint about the speaker's personal situation...]
- 1123581321 14y ago
  "This was predicted, so therefore it is wrong," is not a persuasive argument. Naturally, many people have pre-written responses to things they find disagreeable. That some parties have collected these pre-responses into one location and given it a name does not make that collection authoritative. You might do better to simply make your own point rather than weaken it with these citations.
- walms 14y ago
  So what is the solution?
- furyofantares 14y ago
  I have used the "mom" example a few of times. My mom is quite capable, so most anecdotes I have of times I've gained insight into how people use computers when they aren't familiar with them are of other people in my life. But I do have a few anecdotes about her that I've used. One day someone was Wrong On The Internet and I really wanted to make my point and found myself making my point with a "mom" example that had never actually happened with her. Initially it made me a little uncomfortable, and I thought the discomfort came from representing my mother as less capable than she is. But I figured I'm anonymous, and since I could be anyone,I'm not really talking about my mom specifically. "My mom" could be any mom and I was conveying something I figured might happen to lots of moms. So I posted it anyway. It wasn't until later that I realized how extremely obviously sexist and ageist it was. The ONLY reason I was using "mom" in that example was to enlist the stereotype that older women aren't adept with technology. That made me further realize that even when I was using true anecdotes from my life, I was likely motivated to do so because enlisting the stereotype strengthened whatever point I happened to be making. When I read the girlfriend/wife line from the OP I thought the same thing as many responders here do: There's nothing wrong with someone sharing a true fact about their experience being in a relationship with someone that doesn't care as much about technology. But that can still be sexist if you are unknowingly choosing to share the fact because the point you are making is made stronger by enlisting a stereotype that women don't care about technology.
thristian 14y ago
The issue is not the content of the sentence, it's the relative frequency of the sentence. The stereotype of the non-technical female is pretty common: people talk about "software that even your mother could use" or simple things that pass "the grandma test". Practically nobody talks about dumbing down technical content for their husbands, fathers or grandfathers.
- Smudge 14y ago
  I always assumed we call it the "grandma test" because by the time it matters grandpa's probably already dead.
juridatenshi 14y ago
I didn't claim the comment was sexist in my post. I said that it was a regular reminder that speakers don't consider me (and other demographics) part of their audience. The thing is, I've never heard a woman speaker make a similar joke about her husband/boyfriend or a non-heterosexual speaker make a similar comment about their partner. Maybe I'd feel differently if there was more of a mix.
- Niten 14y ago
  > The thing is, I've never heard a woman speaker make a similar joke about her husband/boyfriend or a non-heterosexual speaker make a similar comment about their partner. Well, taking for granted the fact that there are more men than women in computer science and engineering / IT, presumably a higher percentage of women (and homosexual men) in tech have had success finding a significant other who shares their primary interests than vice-versa. (Assuming you're the author of this blog) obviously much of what you mentioned in this post is flat-out sexism and needs to be addressed. But if I joke or complain that my $SIGNIFICANT_OTHER doesn't get my interests, and that $SIGNIFICANT_OTHER happens to be female makes you feel alienated... really, that's your problem. The fact that you have experienced actual sexism in some contexts is not mutually exclusive with the possibility that you are being oversensitive about this.
  - juridatenshi 14y ago
    The intent of my blog posts (there's a few in the series) was to share my personal experiences and feelings. Not to explicitly label them as sexism or say everyone must share those feelings or say "hey you, you better go fix this" or any other number of things you seem to be attributing to it. As for your comment about me being oversensitive, way to miss the point of the last paragraph of my post.
    - Dylan16807 14y ago
      >As for your comment about me being oversensitive, way to miss the point of the last paragraph of my post. Just because you can predict a rebuttal doesn't make it wrong. Just because a rebuttal is wrong 90% of the time doesn't make it always wrong. Sometimes feelings ARE baseless. I don't want to get into the semantics of whether they're still 'valid', but everyone occasionally thinks things that are objectively wrong.
timack 14y ago
Substitute "partner" instead of a gender specific term and you won't offend anyone (hopefully)... except maybe the forever alone crowd.

I don't think that "my wife doesn't understand why I like technology" is a sexist comment. Substitute husband and it would read just the same.

by coopdog 14y ago

I don't think that "my wife doesn't understand why I like technology" is a sexist comment. Substitute husband and it would read just the same.

rmrfrmrf 14y ago

Haha, once again, the Geek Feminism wiki addresses this EXACT argument. ----- "Suck it up and deal" is a common response to examples of gender discrimination. For example, suppose "Bob" asks "Alice" for an example of why female students may feel unwelcome in computer science classrooms, and "Alice" says, "Suppose you walk into a classroom and the first thing you hear is the lecturer saying 'we need to make our systems so usable that even your mom could use them'; would you feel more or less welcome?" It's common for "Bob" to respond that he wouldn't feel unwelcome in such a situation if he were a woman, because he would just suck it up and deal; after all, "Bob" would say, computer scientists frequently use "so easy your mom could use it" as a benchmark, and anyway, why would he let that stop him from being interested in computer science? As a rhetorical device, "Suck it up and deal" serves as a double bind: if you fail to give examples of sexist comments or behavior, you're accused of inventing a problem. If you do give examples, almost any example can be dismissed as something women would be able to deal with if they weren't oversensitive / overemotional / not really interested in technology anyway. "Suck it up and deal" is also a convenient way of disregarding the emotional labor required to, in fact, suck it up and deal (something almost any woman in a technical career already does frequently just to get through the day), the toll that such labor takes on a person over time, and the energy it drains that could otherwise go into work. Like the Male experience trump card, "Suck it up and deal" is a way for people who have never had sexist comments aimed at them to deny the reality that such comments have an effect. Source: http://geekfeminism.wikia.com/wiki/Suck_it_up_and_deal http://geekfeminism.wikia.com/wiki/Suck_it_up_and_deal

grannyg00se 14y ago
That doesn't seem to apply. "Suck it up and deal" wasn't the suggestion, it was a clear case of lack of understanding of the issue. "Suck it up and deal" implies that the person acknowledges that there is a problem (something to "suck up") but that it is not very significant and should be ignored. The real problem here is that the "my wife doesn't understand..." statement implies a camaraderie among men to the exclusion of women. And that type of exclusion over time will lead to feelings of unwelcome. Even if there is no direct offense or exclusion intended. This particular issue likely wouldn't be an issue at all if there wasn't such a gender disparity in the first place because it would be more difficult to mistakenly imply exclusion when there is no hint of exclusion in the environment. And that's sometimes the problem with these difficult to appreciate minority issues. It's hard to even understand what the issue is without being part of the minority.
snogglethorpe 14y ago
But ... the example used in that description doesn't match this case at all. "My wife doesn't ..." is a simple descriptive (and presumably accurate unless there's some reason to believe otherwise) statement about a specific person, not a stereotype. Complaining that your spouse doesn't understand/appreciate something that's important to you is very, very, common—regardless of their sex—because the opinion of one's spouse is something most people value and worry about. If the person had said "my wife, being a woman, doesn't ..." then it would be a stereotype, and maybe the entry you quoted would be relevant... [EDIT: reading the original quote in context, it actually makes more sense there: it's easy to imagine that a line intended as a speaker's joke at a conference really is intended to riff off of a common stereotype (and the assumption that the audience shares this experience), rather than being a simple complaint about the speaker's personal situation...]
1123581321 14y ago
"This was predicted, so therefore it is wrong," is not a persuasive argument. Naturally, many people have pre-written responses to things they find disagreeable. That some parties have collected these pre-responses into one location and given it a name does not make that collection authoritative. You might do better to simply make your own point rather than weaken it with these citations.
walms 14y ago
So what is the solution?
furyofantares 14y ago
I have used the "mom" example a few of times. My mom is quite capable, so most anecdotes I have of times I've gained insight into how people use computers when they aren't familiar with them are of other people in my life. But I do have a few anecdotes about her that I've used. One day someone was Wrong On The Internet and I really wanted to make my point and found myself making my point with a "mom" example that had never actually happened with her. Initially it made me a little uncomfortable, and I thought the discomfort came from representing my mother as less capable than she is. But I figured I'm anonymous, and since I could be anyone,I'm not really talking about my mom specifically. "My mom" could be any mom and I was conveying something I figured might happen to lots of moms. So I posted it anyway. It wasn't until later that I realized how extremely obviously sexist and ageist it was. The ONLY reason I was using "mom" in that example was to enlist the stereotype that older women aren't adept with technology. That made me further realize that even when I was using true anecdotes from my life, I was likely motivated to do so because enlisting the stereotype strengthened whatever point I happened to be making. When I read the girlfriend/wife line from the OP I thought the same thing as many responders here do: There's nothing wrong with someone sharing a true fact about their experience being in a relationship with someone that doesn't care as much about technology. But that can still be sexist if you are unknowingly choosing to share the fact because the point you are making is made stronger by enlisting a stereotype that women don't care about technology.

thristian 14y ago

The issue is not the content of the sentence, it's the relative frequency of the sentence. The stereotype of the non-technical female is pretty common: people talk about "software that even your mother could use" or simple things that pass "the grandma test". Practically nobody talks about dumbing down technical content for their husbands, fathers or grandfathers.

Smudge 14y ago
I always assumed we call it the "grandma test" because by the time it matters grandpa's probably already dead.

juridatenshi 14y ago

I didn't claim the comment was sexist in my post. I said that it was a regular reminder that speakers don't consider me (and other demographics) part of their audience. The thing is, I've never heard a woman speaker make a similar joke about her husband/boyfriend or a non-heterosexual speaker make a similar comment about their partner. Maybe I'd feel differently if there was more of a mix.

Niten 14y ago
> The thing is, I've never heard a woman speaker make a similar joke about her husband/boyfriend or a non-heterosexual speaker make a similar comment about their partner. Well, taking for granted the fact that there are more men than women in computer science and engineering / IT, presumably a higher percentage of women (and homosexual men) in tech have had success finding a significant other who shares their primary interests than vice-versa. (Assuming you're the author of this blog) obviously much of what you mentioned in this post is flat-out sexism and needs to be addressed. But if I joke or complain that my $SIGNIFICANT_OTHER doesn't get my interests, and that $SIGNIFICANT_OTHER happens to be female makes you feel alienated... really, that's your problem. The fact that you have experienced actual sexism in some contexts is not mutually exclusive with the possibility that you are being oversensitive about this.
- juridatenshi 14y ago
  The intent of my blog posts (there's a few in the series) was to share my personal experiences and feelings. Not to explicitly label them as sexism or say everyone must share those feelings or say "hey you, you better go fix this" or any other number of things you seem to be attributing to it. As for your comment about me being oversensitive, way to miss the point of the last paragraph of my post.
  - Dylan16807 14y ago
    >As for your comment about me being oversensitive, way to miss the point of the last paragraph of my post. Just because you can predict a rebuttal doesn't make it wrong. Just because a rebuttal is wrong 90% of the time doesn't make it always wrong. Sometimes feelings ARE baseless. I don't want to get into the semantics of whether they're still 'valid', but everyone occasionally thinks things that are objectively wrong.

timack 14y ago

Substitute "partner" instead of a gender specific term and you won't offend anyone (hopefully)... except maybe the forever alone crowd.