10 ms·

My experiences in tech: Death by 1000 paper cuts

112 points by tghw 14y ago

TillE 14y ago
"Microaggression" is the accepted term for all those things that are totally not a big deal and why can't you take a joke. Very useful concept, particularly if you're not someone who has to suffer them daily and can't understand why one individual little incident is still an issue.
- stcredzero 14y ago
  To clarify: You mean "why you can't take a joke" as an ironc reference, or as a factual statement?
  - deleted 14y ago
    [deleted]
  - rmrfrmrf 14y ago
    When an isolate microaggression is brought to light, the aggressor (or the supporters of the aggressor) usually respond with "why can't you take a joke?" or the infamous "now, I'm a big supporter of [diversity, feminism, equal rights], but this one situation is really not a big deal."
    - hacker789 14y ago
      In a given situation, who decides who the "aggressor" is? You're throwing that word around as though it's always a given.
      - stcredzero 14y ago
        A big part of the difficulty, is that this is the stuff that goes on once bigotry has been pushed down to the subliminal level. Once there is little overt bigotry, then further progress is through accomplishment. There is no sharp demarcation, of course. The tech industry is perhaps still not quite at the "everything is subliminal" point. And yes, a part of the human condition, is that everything is subverted and abused or misapplied, sometime. Because...humans. We're messy.
      - jackowayed 14y ago
        Seriously? In the situations where people talk about microaggressions, it's one party acting in a certain way toward someone from an oppressed class that subtly devalues them in a way that ties into the oppression of that class. Out of context, one may see it as "not a big deal", but in the broader context of that class's oppression, and the frequency with which people of the oppressed class may experience microaggressions, it is a big deal. In that case, there is one clear party who is being (subtly) aggressive.
        hacker789 14y ago
        Seriously. Situations are rarely black and white. It is uncivilized to always assume that the person taking offense is automatically correct. We're all people, and people are capable of dishonestly taking advantage of the sympathies of the mob du jour. It is always okay to discuss whether someone is actually guilty, and it is always okay to discuss whether someone is actually making false accusations.
        stcredzero 14y ago
        I agree. Let me also add that it's often good policy to assume we're all basically decent people, and any problems are due to mistakes or incomplete knowledge. At least at first. Innocent until proven guilty.
      - mkr-hn 14y ago
        The post isn't short on examples.
      - theorique 14y ago
        Generally, in modern social justice circles, the more privileged person is considered the aggressor and the less privileged person is considered the victim. If a person is targeted by multiple "isms" then they can be the victim of people targeted by fewer "isms". However, it is not possible for a privileged person to be the aggressor in a conflict with a less privileged person.
- mynameishere 14y ago
  I've experienced things from women in the workplace that would have resulted in instant termination had she been a man. But men have a higher threshold for not complaining about shit that doesn't matter.
  - vacri 14y ago
    So have I - I've had a morbidly obese Nurse Unit Manager with the hots for me come in and lean all over me - heavy and annoying. My female tech lead volunteered to provide evidence for a sexual harassment complaint if I wanted to. (I'm male, the NUM was female) I didn't want to. The NUM came in maybe three times a year, for only a couple of minutes. It was just a passing discomfort, but the important thing is this: I never lost tangible power. I didn't work in an environment where it was commonplace. I never felt like I couldn't escape or verbally correct or even physically overpower her if things went too far. There was never a culture of undermining my power that it contributed to. I wasn't seen as more of a 'junior' because of it; it didn't diminish my status. Separate to that, I wouldn't say men have a higher threshold for not complaining about shit that doesn't matter. In some senses they do, and in others they don't - the recent PyCon event showed vast amounts of men in tech providing plenty of vapid, shrill complaints over stuff that really didn't require that level of passion.
  - mkr-hn 14y ago
    > I've experienced things from women in the workplace that would have resulted in instant termination had she been a man. I have too, but it's nowhere near as bad as what women I know tell me they deal with. > But men have a higher threshold for not complaining about shit that doesn't matter. This is sexist.
andyl 14y ago
I had a job where people were really mean to me too. It was like constant, never ending pressure! One time I got fired, cause my boss didn't like me, although he wouldn't say it to my face. That really hurt.
edw519 14y ago
Being a software engineer means whatever you choose for it to mean to you. Sorry to hear your choice of analogy. Not my choice for sure. I'm not going to try to compare my pain with your pain or anyone else's; I just want to say that I've been shit on by almost everyone important in my life from the earliest age. But I found refuge in building software. It became my escape from all the other pain. I found a way to tune out all of that and focus on only 2 things: my customers and the tools they needed. And I found a great equalizer. Not because I had anything to prove, but because I found a natural solution: build what the customer needs and nothing much else matters. Don't build what they need: same thing. Forget about the conferences (you don't really need them anyway). Forget about Facebook, twitter, Hacker News, reddit, etc., etc., etc. They're definitely more of a distraction than a help. Learn how to separate issues from details (it's amazing how little really matters). Try to tune out the negativity. I know it's hard, but just think of it as "systems analysis applied to people". Once you focus on what's really important to your customer, block out the distractions, and build what they need, all the bullshit will fade into the background. Please don't allow your aversion to the negativity of others overwhelm your love of building software. Let the love defeat the hate. I did and I know you can too. Best wishes and please keep us posted.
- rmrfrmrf 14y ago
  From the Geek Feminism Wiki: Clawed my way up is an excuse for sexism used in some geek discussions: "I clawed my way up all on my own, why can't you?" Essentially, this argument is a denial of the effect of privilege on success. The person making it argues either that: they, despite being oppressed in some way (often but not always experiencing poverty in childhood), are now very successful, and anyone who isn't is lazy they, despite being oppressed in some way, never took advantage of any scheme designed to ameliorate oppression (such as scholarships targeted at certain groups) there is no such thing as institutional privilege, there's just people who work hard and whining people who don't that natural selection operates at the level of success in society, and by attempting to ameliorate oppression, society is in fact doing itself harm There are various problems with these arguments: oppressions don't map perfectly to each other: someone who experienced, say, poverty can't map their experience onto someone who isn't white or is a woman, etc (see Oppression Olympics) the experience of people with intersecting oppressions is generally discounted it is unlikely in the extreme that the person speaking did not in some way benefit from privilege: for example, access to enough resources for the child to have a computer (perhaps a cheap secondhand one, but nevertheless), access to a library and time to read any books borrowed from the library, household members who did chores while the person speaking studied, etc. it is at least unlikely that the person did not in some way benefit from schemes designed to ameliorate oppression, examples include but aren't limited to: free or cheap public schooling and free or cheap healthcare.
nextstep 14y ago
Sounds like a shitty work place, and she was a woman. Those guys sound like assholes. She should find another job; not everything in "tech" is like this. I don't feel this way at my current position.
- jpxxx 14y ago
  She should disrupt her life and tear down her most important professional relationships to go somewhere that doesn't exist?
  - calinet6 14y ago
    I was in a negative situation at a workplace (despite being a straight male) and yes, I did exactly that, and found a new job that was a hundred times better. Sometimes it's a good idea to leave and find something better. Sometimes it's worth it to stay and try to change the situation. It's difficult to say when each action is appropriate, but you can't say that either one is strictly a poor choice. In other words, yes, she absolutely should if it makes sense.
- juridatenshi 14y ago
  As mentioned in the post, I don't work there anymore. It's worth noting that this isn't the first bad experience I've had at a workplace (see other post [1]). Also, several of the things I mentioned have nothing to do with work, so a new job doesn't solve them. [1]http://juliepagano.tumblr.com/post/46216419829/my-experiences-in-tech-once-upon-an-internship http://juliepagano.tumblr.com/post/46216419829/my-experience...
  - subsystem 14y ago
    You unfortunately doesn't seem to be alone in that. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w4LExVkv4Pw#t=6m14s http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w4LExVkv4Pw#t=6m14s
- hsmyers 14y ago
  "Works for me" is never an answer
grannyg00se 14y ago
" I’ve had people claim minority-only safe spaces are sexist. " What is a minority-only safe space? Is it just a segregated area that implies safety in homogeneity, or is there some other mechanism to ensure "safety"? I can imagine segregating all of a particular minority into their own area of the office for their own "safety". Hopefully that's not what this is.
- juridatenshi 14y ago
  I was alluding to groups (in person or online) that are limited to only a specific minority audience, usually with the intent of creating a space where those people will feel safe to speak freely. For example, the Devchix mailing list is only open to women-identified people.
  - tiredofcareer 14y ago
    Not trolling, I'm genuinely asking: Would you consider it sexist if someone started a developer list only for people that identify as male? Would you consider it racist if white people started a conference where only white people could attend? I can't make the leap to consider female-only developer lists not sexist or exclusionary without setting aside hesitation regarding the concept since my brain wants to consider it a double standard. Even in the face of privilege, another concept I can't really wrap my head around, but which even daring to question or seek explanation of inflicts the wrath of people who hate my privilege. (Nothing has come easy to me in my white male life. Nothing. I hate when people tell me I'm privileged, as it makes me feel like life is pretty hopeless, given the painful career and personal life I've experienced thus far. My life should be easier if I am privileged, right?) As a man, I'd look down on a male-only mailing list, just like I somewhat look down on female-only mailing lists. How about a mailing list for human beings? I just don't get it. Why do we have to identify so hard with what we are? Maybe I have a different perspective on privilege because I'm fat and ugly, and only the attractive white men get it, or something. But seriously, if I have privilege, how do I take advantage of it? Is there something I have to do to make it happen? Because I'd sure like to see it since everybody tells me I have it. (I genuinely loathe "oh, you're a white male, life must be easy for you," just as much as you surely hate people snubbing your gender. I wasn't born into money. I wasn't born attractive. I wasn't born in a great town. I have a felony conviction. This is my second career. I've had to claw my way to success just like everybody else.) --- EDIT: Thanks for having a shot at this, men. I'm interested in OP's answer.
rmrfrmrf 14y ago
This is a fantastic article. Of course, I'm disappointed (though not surprised) that commenters here continue to deny this person's experience.
- hsmyers 14y ago
  Actually given the norm for HN, this is pretty supportive and that is sad
- frio 14y ago
  I know an upvote is all we're supposed to offer when agreeing, but given the rest of the discussion here, it's probably worth putting it in writing too. The response well-written, thoughtful articles like this garner saddens me.
coopdog 14y ago
I don't think that "my wife doesn't understand why I like technology" is a sexist comment. Substitute husband and it would read just the same.
- rmrfrmrf 14y ago
  Haha, once again, the Geek Feminism wiki addresses this EXACT argument. ----- "Suck it up and deal" is a common response to examples of gender discrimination. For example, suppose "Bob" asks "Alice" for an example of why female students may feel unwelcome in computer science classrooms, and "Alice" says, "Suppose you walk into a classroom and the first thing you hear is the lecturer saying 'we need to make our systems so usable that even your mom could use them'; would you feel more or less welcome?" It's common for "Bob" to respond that he wouldn't feel unwelcome in such a situation if he were a woman, because he would just suck it up and deal; after all, "Bob" would say, computer scientists frequently use "so easy your mom could use it" as a benchmark, and anyway, why would he let that stop him from being interested in computer science? As a rhetorical device, "Suck it up and deal" serves as a double bind: if you fail to give examples of sexist comments or behavior, you're accused of inventing a problem. If you do give examples, almost any example can be dismissed as something women would be able to deal with if they weren't oversensitive / overemotional / not really interested in technology anyway. "Suck it up and deal" is also a convenient way of disregarding the emotional labor required to, in fact, suck it up and deal (something almost any woman in a technical career already does frequently just to get through the day), the toll that such labor takes on a person over time, and the energy it drains that could otherwise go into work. Like the Male experience trump card, "Suck it up and deal" is a way for people who have never had sexist comments aimed at them to deny the reality that such comments have an effect. Source: http://geekfeminism.wikia.com/wiki/Suck_it_up_and_deal http://geekfeminism.wikia.com/wiki/Suck_it_up_and_deal
  - grannyg00se 14y ago
    That doesn't seem to apply. "Suck it up and deal" wasn't the suggestion, it was a clear case of lack of understanding of the issue. "Suck it up and deal" implies that the person acknowledges that there is a problem (something to "suck up") but that it is not very significant and should be ignored. The real problem here is that the "my wife doesn't understand..." statement implies a camaraderie among men to the exclusion of women. And that type of exclusion over time will lead to feelings of unwelcome. Even if there is no direct offense or exclusion intended. This particular issue likely wouldn't be an issue at all if there wasn't such a gender disparity in the first place because it would be more difficult to mistakenly imply exclusion when there is no hint of exclusion in the environment. And that's sometimes the problem with these difficult to appreciate minority issues. It's hard to even understand what the issue is without being part of the minority.
RougeFemme 14y ago
In one job, the women used to complain that the boss literally could/would not hear the women when they spoke - at least when they were speaking seriously, offering suggestions, analysis, etc. (He was great for sharing beers, shooting the breeze, discussing current events, etc.) The other men always insisted we were being paranoid/militantly feminist/attention-seeking, etc. One guy finally "saw" it - but not until he had given his 2-weeks' notice. I guess that's when he finally felt comfortable taking the blinders off - or finally acknowledging what he had always seen. I used to say that even mosquitos got more respect from our boss than we did, because he had swatted at them when he heard them.
- wpietri 14y ago
  "It is difficult to get a man to understand something when his salary depends upon his not understanding it!" -- Upton Sinclair Of course, when he said it, "man" meant "person". To be maximally fair to the guys, this stuff is really hard to see. Part of it is just that everything is hard to see unless it's somehow personal for you. But the bigger part for me was that really seeing it required a trip down the rabbit hole to seeing all sorts of privilege. All sorts of my privilege, really. Who wants to know that a chunk of one's sense of self-worth is false? It's real work, and I feel lucky that my circumstances disposed me to seeing it more easily than most.
sneak 14y ago
"The heavy drinking makes some of us feel unsafe." Equating rape culture with alcohol-consumption culture doesn't solve the root problem, it only alienates the vast majority of those of us who enjoy drinking occasionally who have never raped or assaulted anyone ever. The solution to "some people are alienated" is not "alienate the dominant group right back".
- juridatenshi 14y ago
  You're reading an awful lot into my sentence. You may want to think about why that is.
  - sneak 14y ago
    I suppose it's because I've encountered a lot of people who say many of the things that you do that attack anyone male, regardless of their role in the oppression of women. In fact, you are offering non-oppressive behavior of others, and your negative emotional reaction thereto, in the midst of a litany of examples of you being oppressed. It reads as an accusation— aimed at the wrong group. Why do people drinking heavily make you feel unsafe? What is your ideal resolution to such a circumstance wherein you are made to feel unsafe because others are drinking heavily?
    - tghw 14y ago
      I would guess it has to do with both the way enough people have behaved in the past while drinking heavily, as well as the nearly unassailable excuse of "I didn't mean it, I was just a little tipsy." Note that at a conference, even at the after hours events, you're still at a professional event, surrounded by peers and colleagues, not friends. That said, I certainly enjoy partaking, just not heavily when in that environment.
    - juridatenshi 14y ago
      My feelings about drunk people at conferences parties varies depending on a lot of factors. Am I there alone or am I there with friends? Do I know some of the people in attendance or am I isolated? Is it in a dark or well-lit location? How easy is it for me to leave? How drunk are people getting? What's the ratio of men to women in attendance? etc. etc. As these questions hint, my feelings vary on how safe I evaluate the situation to be for myself. I'm not likely to have a fun if I feel unsafe. Why do I evaluate a situation as unsafe sometimes? It's because alcohol lowers inhibitions and can lead to people saying and doing things they might not otherwise. When I'm in a space with people I know, people I can trust to be cool and reasonable even after a few drinks, I feel safe and I can have a drink or two. In other occasions, I don't feel safe. I can't see the future, and I don't know how strangers will behave when drunk. History tells me that sometimes they'll act badly and sometimes they won't. It's not fun for me to gamble on a hope bad things won't happen this time, so I tend to skip parties with drinking on these occasions. TLDR: Sometimes drunk people do stupid things. I don't like gambling that this won't be one of them.
jhspaybar 14y ago
Geez people, why can't we just take this as a moment of reflection. Read this story and say "damn, that's not cool someone feels that way, I wonder what I can do to make life better for the people around me?" It doesn't matter if you think she's over-reacting, or thin skinned, or any other judgement you've made of her after reading her post. Be a decent human being and realize that by being aware, you can make our industry a better place to be for all people. If you think she's just being "moody", there are plenty of guys who see and hate this behavior of our industry and would love for the environment t to improve. As someone who spent 8 years as a car salesman(a 95%+ male industry), the vitriol towards and objectification of women in tech is just about as bad. It's time to wake up.
- smackmybishop 14y ago
  I want an example of a time when there was "vitriol" toward women in the tech industry. I've certainly never seen it.
  - ceol 14y ago
    Is this a joke? She just gave a bunch of them in her post.
    - smackmybishop 14y ago
      Ah, someone "commented on her makeup" or "patted her on the head"? I've been asked to take notes in meetings from time to time, and I don't write blog posts about it...
      - rooshdi 14y ago
        Stop trolling.
      - ceol 14y ago
        I was about to quote the other parts of her post, but then I realized it's not worth the effort. If you don't acknowledge them after having presumably read the post, you're not going to do so when I quote them, and you'll probably throw some half-assed reasons as to why they don't meet the specific criteria of "vitriol" you had laid out in your head. Instead, I'd like to use your post as another piece of evidence of the problems women face in the tech and programming communities. Hopefully those who do have a chance of understanding will look at your comment and go, "Wow, I can't believe some guy would say such a stupid thing. Perhaps there is a problem..."
brucehs 14y ago
I find this Scalzi piece a useful point of reflection: http://whatever.scalzi.com/2012/05/15/straight-white-male-the-lowest-difficulty-setting-there-is/ http://whatever.scalzi.com/2012/05/15/straight-white-male-th...
- newnewnew 14y ago
  That's what we need, another article that treats all members of <class> as piece of a homogenous whole.
Sunlis 14y ago
I hope you don't let your negative experiences push you away from working in (software) engineering. The field in general is already over-saturated with men and I could imagine it being an intimidating field to get into when you're the only female programmer in the office. (My office of about 150 people has only 2 or 3 female programmers, the other 5 or so women are payroll, receptionist, etc.) It's easy for us as men to feel welcome and comfortable in a group composed almost entirely of men, and I suppose it ends up being sort of self-fulfilling at that point to "keep women out", even if we don't all intend for that to happen. I know that walking into an interview and sitting across from 3 women scares me a little bit, but I can't even imagine how I would feel in an office full of women; definitely out of place. TL;DR: Please stick with it! The best way to help the female students and interns to be more comfortable in the field is to get as close to a 50:50 gender split as possible.
smackmybishop 14y ago
Overdramatic paranoia. Get over yourself.
newnewnew 14y ago
One source of these "paper cuts" is that we live immersed in a highly sexual culture. "Booth babes" are provided for men to oggle at tech conferences, but the idealized female body is also used to sell beer, cars, and hamburgers to us on TV. Cleavage shots are common on highway billboards. "Dongle" jokes are on Family Guy, the Daily Show, HBO, CBS, NBC, and even PG movies (I remember a penis joke in "Shrek"). When guys make sexual comments, they are simply participating in the culture that they live in. While tech has some attitudes that are undeniably sexist, comments that would happen in any industry are perceived as more threatening because the gender ratio is so out of whack. If females felt safer in tech, then they wouldn't notice as much the background noise of cultural hyper-sexuality. It feels unfair or unreasonable to many men to check their American culture at the door in order to make females feel comfortable in tech, which is the source of the recent shitshow over PyCon. Most men are willing to fight blatantly sexist shit - the groping and nasty comments reported from tech conferences over the last few years. I am 100% on PyCon's side with the code of conduct and support resources for women. But males in tech simply don't know how to have a conversation without "that's what she said". That's what they hear at night on "How I met your mother". We have a sexually libertine culture. That is viewed as "progress" by some, including many feminists, but it is not without costs. And there is no easy way to silence it.
- walms 14y ago
  I think this is a very important point. Why is it that we accept grossly sexual comedy and imagery as means to advertise to the masses. Yet in the work place this same culture is seen as totally unacceptable. Personally I think we have gone way to far with what we accept in the media and it's only getting worse.
  - sneak 14y ago
    > Personally I think we have gone way to far with what we accept in the media and it's only getting worse. Personally I think we have gone way too far with what we deem "unprofessional" or "inappropriate". I'm with Louis CK when I find myself being offended by hearing some white lady with nice hair saying the phrase "the N word" on CNN.
3minus1 14y ago
Really well-written article. Thanks for sharing.
birken 14y ago
Treating coworkers with respect should always be the first responsibility of all employees. Many of these situations you describe are gender discrimination, but even at a higher level they are just an example of coworkers not showing respect for one another. I've worked for 2 places in a row where not showing respect for your fellow coworkers is literally a fireable offense. These places exist. Many of the behaviors you mentioned in your post would be so far over the line of appropriateness that it wouldn't even been a question or issue. If you brought them up to your manager immediate action would be taken. So I'd encourage you just to keep looking if you continue to run into these issues. All tech companies are not like this.
pifflesnort 14y ago
Software has apparently become some sort of social cause, instead of an engineering discipline, and my patience with this constant caterwauling about it is at its end. I too am dealing with death by a thousand cuts of unprofessionalism: - People swearing in presentations, and then people whining about swearing in presentations. - Presentations that aren't backed by research or papers or anything of particular engineering note, but instead are a platform for social butterfly developers to build a larger popularity platform. - Conferences named after beer drinking. - Constant whining about some sort of offense that someone dealt you, or some social situation that you were unable to handle like an adult. - Constant wheel re-invention of 1990s engineering dressed up in fancy websites with funny names like "unicorn" or 'nyan rainbow cat daemon'. - Conference blow-ups about things that SHOULD NOT MATTER. Like dongles. Multiple people losing their jobs and articles in CNN. - Drama-fests about workplace behavior, cancelled talks, "triggers", t-shirts that make people cry. I'm sick of this. THIS is what a real conference with real papers look(ed|s) like: http://static.usenix.org/events/usenix01/technical.html http://static.usenix.org/events/usenix01/technical.html https://www.usenix.org/system/files/tech-schedule/atc12_proceedings_0.pdf https://www.usenix.org/system/files/tech-schedule/atc12_proc... Maybe this is just what happens when a fringe group like technology is re-integrated into the mainstream, but I would like to go just one day without hearing about some other act of stupidity, sexism, tweets, or social anxiety, and instead focus on what actually matters, which is real, hard, respectful, careful, and attentive ENGINEERING.
- Locke1689 14y ago
  You know, Microsoft may not be "cool," but heck if I'm not thrilled to be in a work place concerned with 1) Engineering 2) Business And that's about it.
  - tiredofcareer 14y ago
    It's interesting, that being the case as you say, that the industry has turned so hard on Microsoft in most aspects. I might even upgrade from "interesting" to "telling" or, more bravely, "damning" for that observation.
- 14y ago
ikkyu 14y ago
This isn't really a unique story. Understand that it sucks to be treated like that but the same can be said about women dominant workplaces. Sexism and not being taken seriously can be found everywhere. I've been called "sweetie", "honey" with a demeaning tone on daily basis, I've heard about fucking so and so and drama that goes with it, my opinion was dismissed and I was left out from the "club" more times than I care to remember and females usually got better treatment simply by being a female countless time. This shouldn't be news, this is just life.
- wpietri 14y ago
  I'm amazed that you can also experience painful discrimination and conclude that nobody should notice that. Isn't a better response to say that discrimination sucks, and that we should work to end it everywhere? As a guy in tech, I have it good. But I have never forgotten how, back in the day, being a nerd among normal people sucked. That is part of why I work to end sexism in tech.
  - ikkyu 14y ago
    We all have different goals and limited amount of time. I will speak up in the case of injustice if it arises but it's not my duty to fight sexism, end world hunger, fight for peace or adopt Nigerian children.
    - wpietri 14y ago
      As a guy, I think it is my duty to fight sexism, because I have benefited from it. But even given what you say, it doesn't match with your earlier point. Saying that sexism isn't news is to suggest that not only do you not want to talk about it, but that we shouldn't either.
      - deleted 14y ago
        [deleted]
        14y ago
wpaladin 14y ago
I'm beginning to wonder if this is actually universal. I've lived and worked pretty much all my life in India, and something like what the OP describes would be pretty much unthinkable there. Disclaimer: I grew up in urban and small-town India, in a lower middle-class and middle-class environment. I have no first-hand knowledge of how it is in rural scools. Also, anecdotal evidence, so feel free to take it all with heavy dpo Math and the sciences in school: Every memory of school I have has girls and boys in equal measure doing well in math and science. The teachers's pets are all the kids who do well in class, the well-behaved ones who were focused on studying. In our early teens though, you could actually see the girls doing better than the boys in every subject. This pattern continued through college as well. Most guys handled this situation by relying on their female classmates for notes and help with schoolwork. I did the same. College: My engineering class had something like a 40% female to 60% male ratio. This varied by specialization. The mechanical engineering department had a grand total of 3 female students and a 100 male students. (This was because Mechanical Engineering was perceived as something physically demanding, and the jobs involved factory floors in far-flung remote towns and villages.) The computer science department had somewhat more than a 50% female student ratio. On the whole, apart from the Mechanical Engineering department, every department was hovering around a equal distribution of females and males. Note that this was not deliberate on the part of the administration. Engineering school admissions in India are purely a function of score in State-level and National-level entrance exams. For that matter, the faculty was also a fairly even mix of male and female teachers. From the OP's post : "At an old job, someone in authority pats me on the head to dismiss an argument I’m making about something at work." In an Indian setting, this would be near impossible because Indian culture is terribly touchy about men touching women in general. So the condescension would probably be expressed in some other manner, possibly verbal. Plus, with close to half the employees being female, there's never really a sense of female co-workers as a minority in the workspace. And even in the few all-male teams I've been a part of, most of the men have spouses or sisters who work in tech. This means that no one thinks of male techies as the norm over female techies. Conferences: Just like the workplaces, there's a good mix of men and women at these. And alcohol is hardly ever an issue because no one serves alcohol at these events in India, not even beer. It's a bit of a social taboo. Another thing to note is that in India, engineering, and specifically, software, is something of an aspirational field. It's considered one of the most desirable careers, and everyone wants in.
nasloan 14y ago
I don't know Julie much, but I have met her at least once or twice and have seen her around the Pittsburgh software community events on several occasions. As an organizer of the Pittsburgh Python group I feel a sort of camaraderie with her and the other members of our little community. I can't truly understand her experiences as a woman in this industry, but I know she is hurting now, and I won't ever forget that. These women are our people. They are tinkerers and geeks and perfectionists and builders and creators and geniuses and artists. They are who we are and who we aspire to be. There is plenty of imperfection to go around on both sides of the gender divide, but what we all have in common is a desire to be better... Better at our work or our craft, better at our fun. I think if we took just a little bit of that energy and aimed it at being better at relating to and respecting one another, we would all be better off. We can make progress on this issue of sexism. We can start by practicing a bit more professionalism, even when we think no one is watching. We can make progress by thinking about others first when we think or act. We can make comments with real value, rather than shock value. We can acknowledge that there is no inherent connection between boldness and rightness. We don't need to start treating women differently... We are already doing that and it is only making things worse. We need to hold ourselves to a higher standard when dealing with everyone. What if we all went to work today and encouraged every good idea, and were constructive toward every bad idea? What if we talked about software like it was software, not a swimsuit model? What if we stopped being so impressed with ourselves at every turn of off-color phrase, and started being impressed with the great things that the men and women we work with are doing to drive our products forward? What if we spent just one week focusing on that. Maybe some of Julie's paper cuts would get a chance to heal. Maybe then we would learn what we can really accomplish together. Maybe we would never look back.

112 points by tghw 14y ago

TillE 14y ago

"Microaggression" is the accepted term for all those things that are totally not a big deal and why can't you take a joke. Very useful concept, particularly if you're not someone who has to suffer them daily and can't understand why one individual little incident is still an issue.

stcredzero 14y ago
To clarify: You mean "why you can't take a joke" as an ironc reference, or as a factual statement?
- deleted 14y ago
  [deleted]
- rmrfrmrf 14y ago
  When an isolate microaggression is brought to light, the aggressor (or the supporters of the aggressor) usually respond with "why can't you take a joke?" or the infamous "now, I'm a big supporter of [diversity, feminism, equal rights], but this one situation is really not a big deal."
  - hacker789 14y ago
    In a given situation, who decides who the "aggressor" is? You're throwing that word around as though it's always a given.
    - stcredzero 14y ago
      A big part of the difficulty, is that this is the stuff that goes on once bigotry has been pushed down to the subliminal level. Once there is little overt bigotry, then further progress is through accomplishment. There is no sharp demarcation, of course. The tech industry is perhaps still not quite at the "everything is subliminal" point. And yes, a part of the human condition, is that everything is subverted and abused or misapplied, sometime. Because...humans. We're messy.
    - jackowayed 14y ago
      Seriously? In the situations where people talk about microaggressions, it's one party acting in a certain way toward someone from an oppressed class that subtly devalues them in a way that ties into the oppression of that class. Out of context, one may see it as "not a big deal", but in the broader context of that class's oppression, and the frequency with which people of the oppressed class may experience microaggressions, it is a big deal. In that case, there is one clear party who is being (subtly) aggressive.
      - hacker789 14y ago
        Seriously. Situations are rarely black and white. It is uncivilized to always assume that the person taking offense is automatically correct. We're all people, and people are capable of dishonestly taking advantage of the sympathies of the mob du jour. It is always okay to discuss whether someone is actually guilty, and it is always okay to discuss whether someone is actually making false accusations.
        stcredzero 14y ago
        I agree. Let me also add that it's often good policy to assume we're all basically decent people, and any problems are due to mistakes or incomplete knowledge. At least at first. Innocent until proven guilty.
    - mkr-hn 14y ago
      The post isn't short on examples.
    - theorique 14y ago
      Generally, in modern social justice circles, the more privileged person is considered the aggressor and the less privileged person is considered the victim. If a person is targeted by multiple "isms" then they can be the victim of people targeted by fewer "isms". However, it is not possible for a privileged person to be the aggressor in a conflict with a less privileged person.
mynameishere 14y ago
I've experienced things from women in the workplace that would have resulted in instant termination had she been a man. But men have a higher threshold for not complaining about shit that doesn't matter.
- vacri 14y ago
  So have I - I've had a morbidly obese Nurse Unit Manager with the hots for me come in and lean all over me - heavy and annoying. My female tech lead volunteered to provide evidence for a sexual harassment complaint if I wanted to. (I'm male, the NUM was female) I didn't want to. The NUM came in maybe three times a year, for only a couple of minutes. It was just a passing discomfort, but the important thing is this: I never lost tangible power. I didn't work in an environment where it was commonplace. I never felt like I couldn't escape or verbally correct or even physically overpower her if things went too far. There was never a culture of undermining my power that it contributed to. I wasn't seen as more of a 'junior' because of it; it didn't diminish my status. Separate to that, I wouldn't say men have a higher threshold for not complaining about shit that doesn't matter. In some senses they do, and in others they don't - the recent PyCon event showed vast amounts of men in tech providing plenty of vapid, shrill complaints over stuff that really didn't require that level of passion.
- mkr-hn 14y ago
  > I've experienced things from women in the workplace that would have resulted in instant termination had she been a man. I have too, but it's nowhere near as bad as what women I know tell me they deal with. > But men have a higher threshold for not complaining about shit that doesn't matter. This is sexist.

andyl 14y ago

I had a job where people were really mean to me too. It was like constant, never ending pressure! One time I got fired, cause my boss didn't like me, although he wouldn't say it to my face. That really hurt.

edw519 14y ago

Being a software engineer means whatever you choose for it to mean to you. Sorry to hear your choice of analogy. Not my choice for sure. I'm not going to try to compare my pain with your pain or anyone else's; I just want to say that I've been shit on by almost everyone important in my life from the earliest age. But I found refuge in building software. It became my escape from all the other pain. I found a way to tune out all of that and focus on only 2 things: my customers and the tools they needed. And I found a great equalizer. Not because I had anything to prove, but because I found a natural solution: build what the customer needs and nothing much else matters. Don't build what they need: same thing. Forget about the conferences (you don't really need them anyway). Forget about Facebook, twitter, Hacker News, reddit, etc., etc., etc. They're definitely more of a distraction than a help. Learn how to separate issues from details (it's amazing how little really matters). Try to tune out the negativity. I know it's hard, but just think of it as "systems analysis applied to people". Once you focus on what's really important to your customer, block out the distractions, and build what they need, all the bullshit will fade into the background. Please don't allow your aversion to the negativity of others overwhelm your love of building software. Let the love defeat the hate. I did and I know you can too. Best wishes and please keep us posted.

rmrfrmrf 14y ago
From the Geek Feminism Wiki: Clawed my way up is an excuse for sexism used in some geek discussions: "I clawed my way up all on my own, why can't you?" Essentially, this argument is a denial of the effect of privilege on success. The person making it argues either that: they, despite being oppressed in some way (often but not always experiencing poverty in childhood), are now very successful, and anyone who isn't is lazy they, despite being oppressed in some way, never took advantage of any scheme designed to ameliorate oppression (such as scholarships targeted at certain groups) there is no such thing as institutional privilege, there's just people who work hard and whining people who don't that natural selection operates at the level of success in society, and by attempting to ameliorate oppression, society is in fact doing itself harm There are various problems with these arguments: oppressions don't map perfectly to each other: someone who experienced, say, poverty can't map their experience onto someone who isn't white or is a woman, etc (see Oppression Olympics) the experience of people with intersecting oppressions is generally discounted it is unlikely in the extreme that the person speaking did not in some way benefit from privilege: for example, access to enough resources for the child to have a computer (perhaps a cheap secondhand one, but nevertheless), access to a library and time to read any books borrowed from the library, household members who did chores while the person speaking studied, etc. it is at least unlikely that the person did not in some way benefit from schemes designed to ameliorate oppression, examples include but aren't limited to: free or cheap public schooling and free or cheap healthcare.

nextstep 14y ago

Sounds like a shitty work place, and she was a woman. Those guys sound like assholes. She should find another job; not everything in "tech" is like this. I don't feel this way at my current position.

jpxxx 14y ago
She should disrupt her life and tear down her most important professional relationships to go somewhere that doesn't exist?
- calinet6 14y ago
  I was in a negative situation at a workplace (despite being a straight male) and yes, I did exactly that, and found a new job that was a hundred times better. Sometimes it's a good idea to leave and find something better. Sometimes it's worth it to stay and try to change the situation. It's difficult to say when each action is appropriate, but you can't say that either one is strictly a poor choice. In other words, yes, she absolutely should if it makes sense.
juridatenshi 14y ago
As mentioned in the post, I don't work there anymore. It's worth noting that this isn't the first bad experience I've had at a workplace (see other post [1]). Also, several of the things I mentioned have nothing to do with work, so a new job doesn't solve them. [1]http://juliepagano.tumblr.com/post/46216419829/my-experiences-in-tech-once-upon-an-internship http://juliepagano.tumblr.com/post/46216419829/my-experience...
- subsystem 14y ago
  You unfortunately doesn't seem to be alone in that. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w4LExVkv4Pw#t=6m14s http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w4LExVkv4Pw#t=6m14s
hsmyers 14y ago
"Works for me" is never an answer

grannyg00se 14y ago

" I’ve had people claim minority-only safe spaces are sexist. " What is a minority-only safe space? Is it just a segregated area that implies safety in homogeneity, or is there some other mechanism to ensure "safety"? I can imagine segregating all of a particular minority into their own area of the office for their own "safety". Hopefully that's not what this is.

juridatenshi 14y ago
I was alluding to groups (in person or online) that are limited to only a specific minority audience, usually with the intent of creating a space where those people will feel safe to speak freely. For example, the Devchix mailing list is only open to women-identified people.
- tiredofcareer 14y ago
  Not trolling, I'm genuinely asking: Would you consider it sexist if someone started a developer list only for people that identify as male? Would you consider it racist if white people started a conference where only white people could attend? I can't make the leap to consider female-only developer lists not sexist or exclusionary without setting aside hesitation regarding the concept since my brain wants to consider it a double standard. Even in the face of privilege, another concept I can't really wrap my head around, but which even daring to question or seek explanation of inflicts the wrath of people who hate my privilege. (Nothing has come easy to me in my white male life. Nothing. I hate when people tell me I'm privileged, as it makes me feel like life is pretty hopeless, given the painful career and personal life I've experienced thus far. My life should be easier if I am privileged, right?) As a man, I'd look down on a male-only mailing list, just like I somewhat look down on female-only mailing lists. How about a mailing list for human beings? I just don't get it. Why do we have to identify so hard with what we are? Maybe I have a different perspective on privilege because I'm fat and ugly, and only the attractive white men get it, or something. But seriously, if I have privilege, how do I take advantage of it? Is there something I have to do to make it happen? Because I'd sure like to see it since everybody tells me I have it. (I genuinely loathe "oh, you're a white male, life must be easy for you," just as much as you surely hate people snubbing your gender. I wasn't born into money. I wasn't born attractive. I wasn't born in a great town. I have a felony conviction. This is my second career. I've had to claw my way to success just like everybody else.) --- EDIT: Thanks for having a shot at this, men. I'm interested in OP's answer.

rmrfrmrf 14y ago

This is a fantastic article. Of course, I'm disappointed (though not surprised) that commenters here continue to deny this person's experience.

hsmyers 14y ago
Actually given the norm for HN, this is pretty supportive and that is sad
frio 14y ago
I know an upvote is all we're supposed to offer when agreeing, but given the rest of the discussion here, it's probably worth putting it in writing too. The response well-written, thoughtful articles like this garner saddens me.

coopdog 14y ago

I don't think that "my wife doesn't understand why I like technology" is a sexist comment. Substitute husband and it would read just the same.

rmrfrmrf 14y ago
Haha, once again, the Geek Feminism wiki addresses this EXACT argument. ----- "Suck it up and deal" is a common response to examples of gender discrimination. For example, suppose "Bob" asks "Alice" for an example of why female students may feel unwelcome in computer science classrooms, and "Alice" says, "Suppose you walk into a classroom and the first thing you hear is the lecturer saying 'we need to make our systems so usable that even your mom could use them'; would you feel more or less welcome?" It's common for "Bob" to respond that he wouldn't feel unwelcome in such a situation if he were a woman, because he would just suck it up and deal; after all, "Bob" would say, computer scientists frequently use "so easy your mom could use it" as a benchmark, and anyway, why would he let that stop him from being interested in computer science? As a rhetorical device, "Suck it up and deal" serves as a double bind: if you fail to give examples of sexist comments or behavior, you're accused of inventing a problem. If you do give examples, almost any example can be dismissed as something women would be able to deal with if they weren't oversensitive / overemotional / not really interested in technology anyway. "Suck it up and deal" is also a convenient way of disregarding the emotional labor required to, in fact, suck it up and deal (something almost any woman in a technical career already does frequently just to get through the day), the toll that such labor takes on a person over time, and the energy it drains that could otherwise go into work. Like the Male experience trump card, "Suck it up and deal" is a way for people who have never had sexist comments aimed at them to deny the reality that such comments have an effect. Source: http://geekfeminism.wikia.com/wiki/Suck_it_up_and_deal http://geekfeminism.wikia.com/wiki/Suck_it_up_and_deal
- grannyg00se 14y ago
  That doesn't seem to apply. "Suck it up and deal" wasn't the suggestion, it was a clear case of lack of understanding of the issue. "Suck it up and deal" implies that the person acknowledges that there is a problem (something to "suck up") but that it is not very significant and should be ignored. The real problem here is that the "my wife doesn't understand..." statement implies a camaraderie among men to the exclusion of women. And that type of exclusion over time will lead to feelings of unwelcome. Even if there is no direct offense or exclusion intended. This particular issue likely wouldn't be an issue at all if there wasn't such a gender disparity in the first place because it would be more difficult to mistakenly imply exclusion when there is no hint of exclusion in the environment. And that's sometimes the problem with these difficult to appreciate minority issues. It's hard to even understand what the issue is without being part of the minority.

RougeFemme 14y ago

In one job, the women used to complain that the boss literally could/would not hear the women when they spoke - at least when they were speaking seriously, offering suggestions, analysis, etc. (He was great for sharing beers, shooting the breeze, discussing current events, etc.) The other men always insisted we were being paranoid/militantly feminist/attention-seeking, etc. One guy finally "saw" it - but not until he had given his 2-weeks' notice. I guess that's when he finally felt comfortable taking the blinders off - or finally acknowledging what he had always seen. I used to say that even mosquitos got more respect from our boss than we did, because he had swatted at them when he heard them.

wpietri 14y ago
"It is difficult to get a man to understand something when his salary depends upon his not understanding it!" -- Upton Sinclair Of course, when he said it, "man" meant "person". To be maximally fair to the guys, this stuff is really hard to see. Part of it is just that everything is hard to see unless it's somehow personal for you. But the bigger part for me was that really seeing it required a trip down the rabbit hole to seeing all sorts of privilege. All sorts of my privilege, really. Who wants to know that a chunk of one's sense of self-worth is false? It's real work, and I feel lucky that my circumstances disposed me to seeing it more easily than most.

sneak 14y ago

"The heavy drinking makes some of us feel unsafe." Equating rape culture with alcohol-consumption culture doesn't solve the root problem, it only alienates the vast majority of those of us who enjoy drinking occasionally who have never raped or assaulted anyone ever. The solution to "some people are alienated" is not "alienate the dominant group right back".

juridatenshi 14y ago
You're reading an awful lot into my sentence. You may want to think about why that is.
- sneak 14y ago
  I suppose it's because I've encountered a lot of people who say many of the things that you do that attack anyone male, regardless of their role in the oppression of women. In fact, you are offering non-oppressive behavior of others, and your negative emotional reaction thereto, in the midst of a litany of examples of you being oppressed. It reads as an accusation— aimed at the wrong group. Why do people drinking heavily make you feel unsafe? What is your ideal resolution to such a circumstance wherein you are made to feel unsafe because others are drinking heavily?
  - tghw 14y ago
    I would guess it has to do with both the way enough people have behaved in the past while drinking heavily, as well as the nearly unassailable excuse of "I didn't mean it, I was just a little tipsy." Note that at a conference, even at the after hours events, you're still at a professional event, surrounded by peers and colleagues, not friends. That said, I certainly enjoy partaking, just not heavily when in that environment.
  - juridatenshi 14y ago
    My feelings about drunk people at conferences parties varies depending on a lot of factors. Am I there alone or am I there with friends? Do I know some of the people in attendance or am I isolated? Is it in a dark or well-lit location? How easy is it for me to leave? How drunk are people getting? What's the ratio of men to women in attendance? etc. etc. As these questions hint, my feelings vary on how safe I evaluate the situation to be for myself. I'm not likely to have a fun if I feel unsafe. Why do I evaluate a situation as unsafe sometimes? It's because alcohol lowers inhibitions and can lead to people saying and doing things they might not otherwise. When I'm in a space with people I know, people I can trust to be cool and reasonable even after a few drinks, I feel safe and I can have a drink or two. In other occasions, I don't feel safe. I can't see the future, and I don't know how strangers will behave when drunk. History tells me that sometimes they'll act badly and sometimes they won't. It's not fun for me to gamble on a hope bad things won't happen this time, so I tend to skip parties with drinking on these occasions. TLDR: Sometimes drunk people do stupid things. I don't like gambling that this won't be one of them.

jhspaybar 14y ago

Geez people, why can't we just take this as a moment of reflection. Read this story and say "damn, that's not cool someone feels that way, I wonder what I can do to make life better for the people around me?" It doesn't matter if you think she's over-reacting, or thin skinned, or any other judgement you've made of her after reading her post. Be a decent human being and realize that by being aware, you can make our industry a better place to be for all people. If you think she's just being "moody", there are plenty of guys who see and hate this behavior of our industry and would love for the environment t to improve. As someone who spent 8 years as a car salesman(a 95%+ male industry), the vitriol towards and objectification of women in tech is just about as bad. It's time to wake up.

smackmybishop 14y ago
I want an example of a time when there was "vitriol" toward women in the tech industry. I've certainly never seen it.
- ceol 14y ago
  Is this a joke? She just gave a bunch of them in her post.
  - smackmybishop 14y ago
    Ah, someone "commented on her makeup" or "patted her on the head"? I've been asked to take notes in meetings from time to time, and I don't write blog posts about it...
    - rooshdi 14y ago
      Stop trolling.
    - ceol 14y ago
      I was about to quote the other parts of her post, but then I realized it's not worth the effort. If you don't acknowledge them after having presumably read the post, you're not going to do so when I quote them, and you'll probably throw some half-assed reasons as to why they don't meet the specific criteria of "vitriol" you had laid out in your head. Instead, I'd like to use your post as another piece of evidence of the problems women face in the tech and programming communities. Hopefully those who do have a chance of understanding will look at your comment and go, "Wow, I can't believe some guy would say such a stupid thing. Perhaps there is a problem..."

brucehs 14y ago

I find this Scalzi piece a useful point of reflection: http://whatever.scalzi.com/2012/05/15/straight-white-male-the-lowest-difficulty-setting-there-is/ http://whatever.scalzi.com/2012/05/15/straight-white-male-th...

newnewnew 14y ago
That's what we need, another article that treats all members of <class> as piece of a homogenous whole.

Sunlis 14y ago

I hope you don't let your negative experiences push you away from working in (software) engineering. The field in general is already over-saturated with men and I could imagine it being an intimidating field to get into when you're the only female programmer in the office. (My office of about 150 people has only 2 or 3 female programmers, the other 5 or so women are payroll, receptionist, etc.) It's easy for us as men to feel welcome and comfortable in a group composed almost entirely of men, and I suppose it ends up being sort of self-fulfilling at that point to "keep women out", even if we don't all intend for that to happen. I know that walking into an interview and sitting across from 3 women scares me a little bit, but I can't even imagine how I would feel in an office full of women; definitely out of place. TL;DR: Please stick with it! The best way to help the female students and interns to be more comfortable in the field is to get as close to a 50:50 gender split as possible.

smackmybishop 14y ago

Overdramatic paranoia. Get over yourself.

newnewnew 14y ago

One source of these "paper cuts" is that we live immersed in a highly sexual culture. "Booth babes" are provided for men to oggle at tech conferences, but the idealized female body is also used to sell beer, cars, and hamburgers to us on TV. Cleavage shots are common on highway billboards. "Dongle" jokes are on Family Guy, the Daily Show, HBO, CBS, NBC, and even PG movies (I remember a penis joke in "Shrek"). When guys make sexual comments, they are simply participating in the culture that they live in. While tech has some attitudes that are undeniably sexist, comments that would happen in any industry are perceived as more threatening because the gender ratio is so out of whack. If females felt safer in tech, then they wouldn't notice as much the background noise of cultural hyper-sexuality. It feels unfair or unreasonable to many men to check their American culture at the door in order to make females feel comfortable in tech, which is the source of the recent shitshow over PyCon. Most men are willing to fight blatantly sexist shit - the groping and nasty comments reported from tech conferences over the last few years. I am 100% on PyCon's side with the code of conduct and support resources for women. But males in tech simply don't know how to have a conversation without "that's what she said". That's what they hear at night on "How I met your mother". We have a sexually libertine culture. That is viewed as "progress" by some, including many feminists, but it is not without costs. And there is no easy way to silence it.

walms 14y ago
I think this is a very important point. Why is it that we accept grossly sexual comedy and imagery as means to advertise to the masses. Yet in the work place this same culture is seen as totally unacceptable. Personally I think we have gone way to far with what we accept in the media and it's only getting worse.
- sneak 14y ago
  > Personally I think we have gone way to far with what we accept in the media and it's only getting worse. Personally I think we have gone way too far with what we deem "unprofessional" or "inappropriate". I'm with Louis CK when I find myself being offended by hearing some white lady with nice hair saying the phrase "the N word" on CNN.

3minus1 14y ago

Really well-written article. Thanks for sharing.

birken 14y ago

Treating coworkers with respect should always be the first responsibility of all employees. Many of these situations you describe are gender discrimination, but even at a higher level they are just an example of coworkers not showing respect for one another. I've worked for 2 places in a row where not showing respect for your fellow coworkers is literally a fireable offense. These places exist. Many of the behaviors you mentioned in your post would be so far over the line of appropriateness that it wouldn't even been a question or issue. If you brought them up to your manager immediate action would be taken. So I'd encourage you just to keep looking if you continue to run into these issues. All tech companies are not like this.

pifflesnort 14y ago

Software has apparently become some sort of social cause, instead of an engineering discipline, and my patience with this constant caterwauling about it is at its end. I too am dealing with death by a thousand cuts of unprofessionalism: - People swearing in presentations, and then people whining about swearing in presentations. - Presentations that aren't backed by research or papers or anything of particular engineering note, but instead are a platform for social butterfly developers to build a larger popularity platform. - Conferences named after beer drinking. - Constant whining about some sort of offense that someone dealt you, or some social situation that you were unable to handle like an adult. - Constant wheel re-invention of 1990s engineering dressed up in fancy websites with funny names like "unicorn" or 'nyan rainbow cat daemon'. - Conference blow-ups about things that SHOULD NOT MATTER. Like dongles. Multiple people losing their jobs and articles in CNN. - Drama-fests about workplace behavior, cancelled talks, "triggers", t-shirts that make people cry. I'm sick of this. THIS is what a real conference with real papers look(ed|s) like: http://static.usenix.org/events/usenix01/technical.html http://static.usenix.org/events/usenix01/technical.html https://www.usenix.org/system/files/tech-schedule/atc12_proceedings_0.pdf https://www.usenix.org/system/files/tech-schedule/atc12_proc... Maybe this is just what happens when a fringe group like technology is re-integrated into the mainstream, but I would like to go just one day without hearing about some other act of stupidity, sexism, tweets, or social anxiety, and instead focus on what actually matters, which is real, hard, respectful, careful, and attentive ENGINEERING.

Locke1689 14y ago
You know, Microsoft may not be "cool," but heck if I'm not thrilled to be in a work place concerned with 1) Engineering 2) Business And that's about it.
- tiredofcareer 14y ago
  It's interesting, that being the case as you say, that the industry has turned so hard on Microsoft in most aspects. I might even upgrade from "interesting" to "telling" or, more bravely, "damning" for that observation.
14y ago

ikkyu 14y ago

This isn't really a unique story. Understand that it sucks to be treated like that but the same can be said about women dominant workplaces. Sexism and not being taken seriously can be found everywhere. I've been called "sweetie", "honey" with a demeaning tone on daily basis, I've heard about fucking so and so and drama that goes with it, my opinion was dismissed and I was left out from the "club" more times than I care to remember and females usually got better treatment simply by being a female countless time. This shouldn't be news, this is just life.

wpietri 14y ago
I'm amazed that you can also experience painful discrimination and conclude that nobody should notice that. Isn't a better response to say that discrimination sucks, and that we should work to end it everywhere? As a guy in tech, I have it good. But I have never forgotten how, back in the day, being a nerd among normal people sucked. That is part of why I work to end sexism in tech.
- ikkyu 14y ago
  We all have different goals and limited amount of time. I will speak up in the case of injustice if it arises but it's not my duty to fight sexism, end world hunger, fight for peace or adopt Nigerian children.
  - wpietri 14y ago
    As a guy, I think it is my duty to fight sexism, because I have benefited from it. But even given what you say, it doesn't match with your earlier point. Saying that sexism isn't news is to suggest that not only do you not want to talk about it, but that we shouldn't either.
    - deleted 14y ago
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      - 14y ago

wpaladin 14y ago

I'm beginning to wonder if this is actually universal. I've lived and worked pretty much all my life in India, and something like what the OP describes would be pretty much unthinkable there. Disclaimer: I grew up in urban and small-town India, in a lower middle-class and middle-class environment. I have no first-hand knowledge of how it is in rural scools. Also, anecdotal evidence, so feel free to take it all with heavy dpo Math and the sciences in school: Every memory of school I have has girls and boys in equal measure doing well in math and science. The teachers's pets are all the kids who do well in class, the well-behaved ones who were focused on studying. In our early teens though, you could actually see the girls doing better than the boys in every subject. This pattern continued through college as well. Most guys handled this situation by relying on their female classmates for notes and help with schoolwork. I did the same. College: My engineering class had something like a 40% female to 60% male ratio. This varied by specialization. The mechanical engineering department had a grand total of 3 female students and a 100 male students. (This was because Mechanical Engineering was perceived as something physically demanding, and the jobs involved factory floors in far-flung remote towns and villages.) The computer science department had somewhat more than a 50% female student ratio. On the whole, apart from the Mechanical Engineering department, every department was hovering around a equal distribution of females and males. Note that this was not deliberate on the part of the administration. Engineering school admissions in India are purely a function of score in State-level and National-level entrance exams. For that matter, the faculty was also a fairly even mix of male and female teachers. From the OP's post : "At an old job, someone in authority pats me on the head to dismiss an argument I’m making about something at work." In an Indian setting, this would be near impossible because Indian culture is terribly touchy about men touching women in general. So the condescension would probably be expressed in some other manner, possibly verbal. Plus, with close to half the employees being female, there's never really a sense of female co-workers as a minority in the workspace. And even in the few all-male teams I've been a part of, most of the men have spouses or sisters who work in tech. This means that no one thinks of male techies as the norm over female techies. Conferences: Just like the workplaces, there's a good mix of men and women at these. And alcohol is hardly ever an issue because no one serves alcohol at these events in India, not even beer. It's a bit of a social taboo. Another thing to note is that in India, engineering, and specifically, software, is something of an aspirational field. It's considered one of the most desirable careers, and everyone wants in.

nasloan 14y ago

I don't know Julie much, but I have met her at least once or twice and have seen her around the Pittsburgh software community events on several occasions. As an organizer of the Pittsburgh Python group I feel a sort of camaraderie with her and the other members of our little community. I can't truly understand her experiences as a woman in this industry, but I know she is hurting now, and I won't ever forget that. These women are our people. They are tinkerers and geeks and perfectionists and builders and creators and geniuses and artists. They are who we are and who we aspire to be. There is plenty of imperfection to go around on both sides of the gender divide, but what we all have in common is a desire to be better... Better at our work or our craft, better at our fun. I think if we took just a little bit of that energy and aimed it at being better at relating to and respecting one another, we would all be better off. We can make progress on this issue of sexism. We can start by practicing a bit more professionalism, even when we think no one is watching. We can make progress by thinking about others first when we think or act. We can make comments with real value, rather than shock value. We can acknowledge that there is no inherent connection between boldness and rightness. We don't need to start treating women differently... We are already doing that and it is only making things worse. We need to hold ourselves to a higher standard when dealing with everyone. What if we all went to work today and encouraged every good idea, and were constructive toward every bad idea? What if we talked about software like it was software, not a swimsuit model? What if we stopped being so impressed with ourselves at every turn of off-color phrase, and started being impressed with the great things that the men and women we work with are doing to drive our products forward? What if we spent just one week focusing on that. Maybe some of Julie's paper cuts would get a chance to heal. Maybe then we would learn what we can really accomplish together. Maybe we would never look back.