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Adria Richards: ‘I’m staying safe’
- KVFinn 14y ago>Look, whatever “side” of this you’re one, here’s what happened: >Some guys made some guy jokes about guy stuff >A woman got offended and did something that was probably an over-reaction >Some conference organizers over-reacted >A company (PlayHaven) over-reacted >The internet (all of us, but especially Anonymous) over-reacted >Another company (SendGrid) over-reacted >I’ve been cursed and pilloried and told to go kill myself by people on both sides of the issue, just for writing about these events. People from both sides see what they want to see and, like trained attack dogs, go in for the kill with little consideration, no mercy, no nuance, no shades of grey. They are so blinded by their self-righteousness that they’re perfectly OK with perpetrating more metaphorical violence in the service of their almighty god-blessed cause. Amazing how things escalate. At this rate I half expect to see this end in years of trench warfare and mustard gas.
- jlgreco 14y agoDoes anyone have clarification on how people think that the conference people overreacted? All that I have heard seems fairly reasonable.
- deleted 14y ago[deleted]
- pyre 14y agoI'm having a hard time wrapping my mind around that one too. It seems that the conference organizers did an excellent job of not over-reacting. They followed their procedures, defused the initial incident discreetly (as much as they could since it was already public knowledge), and updated their Code of Conduct to include a clause to explicitly say not to "name and shame" people.
- Millennium 14y agoThe fact that he said anyone over-reacted is not going to help things. That's not to say I don't think there were overreactions all around: I do. But it's been my experience that people really don't like to hear that they're overreacting, especially while they're in the middle of overreacting. They dislike it so much that entire schools of thought are now dedicated quite strongly to the proposition that there is no such thing as overreaction. The author of this article may well have singlehandedly touched off another round of overreaction from all parties involved. And the hell of it is, I agree with his point; I just don't think it was a useful point to bring up.
- KVFinn 14y ago>But it's been my experience that people really don't like to hear that they're overreacting, especially while they're in the middle of overreacting. They dislike it so much that entire schools of thought are now dedicated quite strongly to the proposition that there is no such thing as overreaction. >The author of this article may well have singlehandedly touched off another round of overreaction from all parties involved. Interesting. I can see that. What sort of schools of thought are you thinking about here that talk about this sort of thing?
- MartinCron 14y agoThat's an interesting conundrum that I've grappled with myself. Telling myself counter-productive things like "outrage is a perfectly normal reaction to an outrageous situation". How should you tell someone that they're overreacting?
- YuriNiyazov 14y agoThis particular subthread caused me to google "no such thing as overreaction". This is what I found: http://www.pediatricneurology.com/practica.htm http://www.pediatricneurology.com/practica.htm and the most fascinating paragraph from them there was: 'There Is No Such Thing as Over-Reacting A psychologist I recently met taught me the following: People do not over-react. They react, by definition, appropriately to the meaning a situation has for them. People have "over-meanings," not "over-reactions." When our child blows up over what seems like a trivial issue to us, it may help us to understand that to our child’s mind, this issue must have a tremendous amount of meaning. We could benefit from saying, "Wow, if that’s how it feels to him, we better calmly discuss this," rather than "Wow, he’s overreacting." For example, imagine an ADD child’s tearful screaming over the process of getting dressed. He’s not over-reacting. He is living a tough morning. Maybe that would change our reaction to his behavior. Children’s "over-reactions" are a window into their minds.'
- aliston 14y agoI don't blame Adria for going into hiding, but 2 weeks from now I doubt anyone will even remember this snafu.
- kscaldef 14y agoIf you don't mind, are you a man or a woman? White or colored?
- iambvk 14y agoAuthor mentions that her action was probably an over-reaction -- which is where I stopped reading the article.
- columbo 14y agoReminds me of a short story that has been around the net for at least ten years: https://sites.google.com/site/cubiclejunglestory/ https://sites.google.com/site/cubiclejunglestory/
- Nav_Panel 14y agoI just read that in its entirety and now I'm wondering "what the hell did I just read?" I'm depressed now =\
- BudVVeezer 14y agoI am reminded of Penny Arcade, oddly enough. http://www.penny-arcade.com/comic/2004/03/19 http://www.penny-arcade.com/comic/2004/03/19
- sp332 14y agoThis isn't about anonymity. The people involved (Adria, Hank, the companies that fired them) talked to each other face-to-face.
- misnome 14y agoYes, but the rest of the internet is in anonymity. Which reaction has been blown all out of proportion.
- sp332 14y agoThere is a lot of vitriol on pages with identities both pseudonymous, e.g. disqus, and real... did you see the conversation on Facebook? People use their real names and identities to be "dickwads".
- logjam 14y agoThe irrational venom and utter cowardice of those who attacked this woman and her supporters, including here on HN, shouldn't be surprising, but somehow it still is. Tech? I would have thought better of arguably among the most "rational" humans. Yet another lesson in how close to the surface very primitive emotions lie. And tech remains a cesspool of mysogyny.
- ryguytilidie 14y agoAs I tweeted yesterday: "Only thing that still bothers me about #donglegate is how people decided that 4chan/reddit trolls=the genuine opinion of all males in tech." Faceless trolls trolling the most trollable topic on the internet does not mean their opinion represents "men in tech".
- theorique 14y agoPart of the issue is that "tech" people tend to be out of touch with their emotions, so while they do feel them very strongly, they may not always understand their origins or be able to handle them in a resourceful manner. Not admitting that many important decisions have an emotional component is part of the problem. They can be 'rational' when it comes to doing numerical things, but when it comes to an emotional issue like picking emacs or vi, they are no better than your average touchy-feely New Age believer at being rational.
- misnome 14y agoTech? On the internet, with Anonymity/Age Ranges/Trolling, why should we expect anything else? Taking everything said on the internet to heart is a very, very bad idea, especially with anything this incendiary. Every time something like this happens people act surprised. Hello, have you ever been on the internet before? I'm not defending it, just saying that it should be treated for what it is - background noise.
- srdev 14y agoThe problem is that simply saying that we should treat it as background noise is functionally indistinguishable from defending it. Bad behavior should be called out and discouraged.
- deleted 14y ago[deleted]
- alexobenauer 14y agoI apologize in advance for nitpicking, but from the article: "It’s been horrible for the PlayHaven developer who lost his job. [...] Who now has to find a new job in tech to support his kids. What’s worse, is that he’s not in Silicon Valley..." Software engineering exists beyond silicon valley. It's true.
- nbouscal 14y agoIt exists, but if you read past where you clipped the quote, you notice that all he's saying is that in the valley demand is extremely high. Demand in other places is significantly lower. (Speaking partly from personal experience, as I do not live in Silicon Valley.)
- dminor 14y agoI'm in the Portland area and recruiters call/email constantly. I have a hard time believing it's not the same for any major metro area.
- redblacktree 14y agoI agree. I'm in Indianapolis and there is plenty of demand for developers here as well.
- papsosouid 14y ago"Anonymous" did not over-react. For their reaction to be an over-reaction, it would have to have a goal other than "lol those idiots took us seriously again". Do people honestly not realize than absurd copypasta like http://knowyourmeme.com/memes/navy-seal-copypasta http://knowyourmeme.com/memes/navy-seal-copypasta are not actually death threats? And that treating them seriously is exactly what the people posting them want?
- guizzy 14y agoSure, but on the other hand, they're giving Adria exactly what she needed to get out of this one stronger: a way to claim to be the victim of the Internet Hate Machine.
- papsosouid 14y agoShe can just claim to be a victim anyways, nobody cares if it is true or not. Just like "I got death and rape threats" wasn't true the last 10 times women claimed that for public sympathy/cash.
- maudineormsby 14y agoSorry, but I don't think the conference organizers overreacted. They did exactly what they were supposed to do under the CoC - they received a complaint, and addressed it discreetly. If they hadn't taken it seriously, and just said 'cool it', then they'd be guilty of not taking their own CoC seriously. And they didn't kick the guy out, or anything like that - it was basically a verbal warning, but done formally so that it was on record in case there was another incident. That's it. Not so bad.
- phildini 14y agoThank you! Everyone is getting down on the PyCon folks, when all they did was follow their own rules. No one was kicked out, there was no over-reaction.
- esbwhat 14y agoI also don't think Adria overreacted. It was a microaggression. Jokes like that foster the uncomfortable boys club environment that is so inherent to tech. Were the jokes explicitly sexist? No, but in an industry that has more than just a bad track record, stuff like that is not okay. Context matters.
- MartinCron 14y agoI totally agree that it was a microaggression, and that microaggression is a real thing that isn't to be tolerated. I know that it's all part of a pervasively unwelcoming and alienating culture that I, as a straight white male, am also disturbed by. I get all of that. I understand all of that and still think her reaction was out-of-scale.
- esbwhat 14y agoWhy? She reported the microaggression to the relevant organizers through a public channel. I don't see the problem?
- MartinCron 14y ago
- ahallock 14y agoGuy jokes about guy stuff? Sorry, women joke about this stuff too. At an old job, the women dropped sexual innuendo and jokes constantly, more so than the men. Was I offended? Hell no, I'm perfectly fine with sexual content; we're all just bags of decaying biological matter anyway. Why did everything become so puritan/PC/ultra-conservative all of a sudden? If a remark is directed at someone in a threatening way, that is different. But saying this is just 'guy stuff' is ignorant of reality.
- criley 14y agoI hate the idea that she's getting death threats and insults because of her gender. That's wrong. It's not because of her gender. It's because she's a notable figure on the internet. I challenge the reader to find any notable figure online who has held a controversial position and not been the target of death threats. That is an Internet anonymity problem, not a gender problem! Women are not the only targets of anonymous death threats online! (Not to excuse the appalling behavior of anonymous cowards who point their threats at almost every notable news target. Seriously, go read the forums on a major partisan site. Vile, disgusting, hurtful and violent language aren't the exception, they're the norm). By playing into the gender context we're playing once against into these stupid gender arguments where they don't belong. "But they're using anti-women language" Of course they are! If it were a crippled man being insulted, why not imagine the language they'd use. If it was a black man being insulted and threatened, guess the language they'd use. They pick their language to troll their target. They pick it after picking their target -- the language isn't the reason! And yet again, a non gender issue will be filed under sexism.
- theorique 14y agoThey pick their language to troll their target. They pick it after picking their target -- the language isn't the reason! Nailed it.
- aaronbrethorst 14y agoPlease explain how this situation would have worked if, instead of Adria, the original tweeter/picture-poster had been a white, heterosexual, Protestant man.
- pekk 14y agowhite men are never sent death threats, are you sure?
- czr80 14y agoWhat white men never get, and this is just an observation, I have no sides or deep interest in this mess, is a comment like: "this makes me re-think hiring white men, they're not worth the drama". I've seen a few of those around the place regarding Ms Richards.
- orangethirty 14y agoI think it would be a great resolution to the problem if all parties involved talked, apologized, and moved on. Even if no jobs are given back.
- MartinCron 14y agoThe problem isn't even with the original parties anymore, all of whom seem to be reasonable people. It's the mostly anonymous commentariat who are using the facts to support previously held intractable positions.
- orangethirty 14y agoYes, that is right. My opinion is that a positive act from parties involved would simply quiet down the current wave of hate.
- thelukester 14y agoAnyone who has read up on Adria Richards' past, knows she's an attentions starved cry-baby. Can we please stop feeding her ego, and stop upvoting these posts about her. She failed miserably at her job of developer relations and has no more business in Technology. Lets move on and stop talking about her.
- aliston 14y ago> she's an attention starved cry-baby From what I've read, petty much epitomizes everything I couldn't stand about dating in San Francisco. Too many self-absorbed, uptight, ultra-feminist, unattractive weirdo girls with a chip on their shoulders... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BF2rq6WaC_4 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BF2rq6WaC_4
- deltaqueue 14y agoI'm still amazed there are journalists reporting that the developers made sexist jokes, and furthermore embarrassed at America's inability to be comfortable with sexuality. The dongle joke was 5th grade humor and the forking comment had 0 implied innuendo. Somehow these privately-told jokes, somewhat sexual in nature, were inferred as sexist, and people lost their jobs because of it! This whole situation sickens me--the threats against Adria especially--but the only thing truly surprising at this point is that Adria did not envision her attempt to summon pitchforks would backfire, with pitchforks being turned on herself. This is the kind of naivety that you would expect from someone unfamiliar with the internet; not someone who works with programmers for a living.
- aftermath 14y agoThe so-called journalists who are calling the jokes "sexist" have been especially irritating, and their attempts to distort the truth to help pull favor in Adria's direction is only pissing people off even more. http://www.theatlanticwire.com/technology/2013/03/adria-richards-sendgrind-fired/63400/ http://www.theatlanticwire.com/technology/2013/03/adria-rich...
- vor_ 14y ago> Since March 20, she has not published a single tweet. There have been no new posts on her blog. She’s been silenced. Congratulations, Internet. Please give us a break with the martyrdom. Nobody has silenced her. She is free to continue posting to her blog and Twitter.
- onemorepassword 14y agoComparing her to Kathy Sierra is insulting. Kathy Sierra was an innocent victim. Richards used her position to bully others. Yes, the backlash is distasteful and disproportionate, but if you're the one gleefully lighting the fire you are not just the victim if you get burned yourself.
- ucvbjk 14y agoI think you are incorrect to use the word "bully" to describe the situation, with all its negative connotations. It implies that her end goal was intimidation, rather than the more noble path of trying to ensure a safe space free of sexually-charged behaviour - which was indeed one of the stated goals of the conference in its code of conduct.
- louisfriend03 14y agoRegardless whether Adria was a male or female, her actions - dragging SendGrid (and claiming they backed her action) - into this mess, left SendGrid with little option. So let's not over react with these claims of over reactions? And I don't agree PyCon over reacted either. Adria made a bad decision and PlayHaven was the only party to over react, IMHO. And the internet is just being the internet. Same as it ever was for the past years. Stop trying to make this about sexism - it's not going to happen.
- baltcode 14y agoThe right thing for Sendgrid to do was to try to appear conciliatory to the person who just lost a job. If Adria was not ready to do that, then Sendgrid had to fire her. Similarly, the Playhaven dev, had he been given a chance needed to apologize and Playhaven had to fire him if he didn't.
- prodigal_erik 14y ago> Do we now live in a culture where there are no second chances, where there’s no ability to call a Mulligan, get a do-over, or just have a bad day? We already have been for a long time. This is not a problem with nerd culture but with legal and HR culture. She basically branded "hostile environment lawsuit risk" across his forehead, and he's instantly so untouchable that PlayHaven couldn't safely retain him. I could understand him maybe wanting revenge once it sinks in just how fucked he is within the US, I just don't get the ridiculous threats from people who weren't involved.
- citricsquid 14y agoBut SendGrid had another option. Its leaders could have taken a leadership role. Maybe create a forum to talk about this issue. Not a bad suggestion, after all if they had not fired her they wouldn't have had a business left and they would need something to do, a forum to moderate sounds like just the ticket. Maybe they could have put up adverts to offset the lost income from their real business.
- baltcode 14y agoThis needs to stop. Going back to the origin: yes, inappropriate comments, language etc. does not belong in professional life it makes someone uncomfortable. The only way this will be changed is with understanding and civility. It was an over-reaction to fire the developer. Adria Richard's continual insistence on only addressing what she felt were inappropriate and sexist jokes and no attention that his firing had made it into something else was not helpful. I think Sendgrid and Adria should have been seen trying to mend bridges at that point. Instead, it seems everyone is continuing to behave extremely arrogantly as if they are perfect. That seems to be how PlayHaven, Sendgrid, Adria, and the trolls are behaving.
- jiggy2011 14y agoThe most disturbing thing about the way I have seen this reported is as some war between feminists and software engineers. This seems to be a popular narrative on the non-tech blogs. In other words attributing all of the threats, DDOS etc to the sort of people who go to pycon. So that means there are two possibilities. 1) It is common for the sort of people who attend pycon and write relatively sensible posts on HN also engage in this sort of behaviour. I hope this is not true, and mostly doubt it but if it is then this is something deeply disturbing. 2) We are letting the sort of people who frequent 4chan and "men's rights" blogs act as representatives of the software community.
- vodafet 14y agoI don't agree with those sending her threats, but this article makes Adria out to be a saint. She completely and totally mishandled the situation. More over, her reaction fits her modus operandi. I would never, ever hire someone like this. I think she is vile.
- javert 14y agoThis story is ridiculous attention-whoring on the part of venturebeat.
- aftermath 14y agoI find it a little obnoxious how she'd rather remain silent and hide than confess any guilt about the shit storm she started. She's even favoriting tweets that support her position. I wouldn't be surprised if a month from now she writes another long anti-man blog trying to make the case for how much of a "victim" she was. She hasn't learned anything.
- sbuk 14y agoI just wish the tech community would grow up. I'm embarrassed and ashamed to be part of it at times.
- deleted 14y ago[deleted]
- fsck66 14y ago#1 - This woman obviously has gender issues - her domain name says it all (butyoureagirl.com - really?) #2 - The joke was completely childish and innocuous at best. No, that isn't subjective, it was!. You can't proclaim yourself a geek and tell me you've never heard a dongle joke. Amy Poller made a similar joke during a recent superbowl commercial. I'd be hard-pressed to see her outting her as offensive to all women. #3 - No, she didn't "save programming" from anything. Programming was never under any threat whatsoever. This were two fellow developers making a silly joke that she completely blew out of proportion. This is nothing but a self righteous individual with illusions of grandeur. What she did was get people fired. #4 - This was never about anything else but herself. And in the end, we are all feeding a troll
- gsibble 14y agoThis article manages to leave out numerous important facts (such as it being a private conversation and Adria's blog post) and tries to paint her the victim here. Lest we forget, she has NOT apologized. She has not shown a single iota of regret. For all we know, SendGrid would have let her keep her job if she had been willing to apologize. Until we hear some mea-culpa from her, she is not the victim. She is the perpetrator.