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Why do I have the impression that if they go flat, they'll be hailed as geniuses and Microsoft will be forgotten forever? (This comment guaranteed 100% conspira

Why do I have the impression that if they go flat, they'll be hailed as geniuses and Microsoft will be forgotten forever? (This comment guaranteed 100% conspirationist and crazy)

acchow 14y ago
Why do you think Microsoft invented flat UI design? I for one will miss the current iOS design. I'm 1 year into Android and I'm still way faster on iOS. There is a clear distinction between what is interaction vs. what is not and my eye instantly maps out the interactive elements on the screen.
- cremnob 14y ago
  I don't think you have to worry about it. They aren't going to make radical changes for the sake of tech geeks who are bored if the rest of the customer base likes things the way they are.
- da_n 14y ago
  Each to their own, I am the complete opposite. I came from an iPhone and switched to Android. I am much faster on Android, task switching is worlds apart, animations are faster and smoother, the apps I use follow Holo design language (this is by choice) meaning the UI is consistent and beautiful. I'm not saying it's perfect, there are some things I miss from iOS like unread badges (easy to get back with Nova Launcher however) and I did like Airplay, Android certainly has plenty of room to refine and improve, but it would take some massive and fundamental changes for me to consider switching back to iOS.
  - coldtea 14y ago
    >animations are faster and smoother This is incorrect, and cannot be so for technical reasons. Even the Android OS team agrees on that. Perhaps you had the "new toy" effect?
    - fpgeek 14y ago
      Citation please? Cannot seems like an unreasonably strong claim. Given the way older iOS devices are often sluggish on newer OS releases, it seems entirely possible that the animations on the switched-from device were slower and less smooth than the animations on the switched-to device.
      - coldtea 14y ago
        Citation? Here, both sides actually: http://www.inspiredgeek.com/2011/12/07/why-android-graphics-are-laggy-while-ios-is-smooth-facts-practical-reality/ http://www.inspiredgeek.com/2011/12/07/why-android-graphics-... https://plus.google.com/100838276097451809262/posts/VDkV9XaJRGS https://plus.google.com/100838276097451809262/posts/VDkV9XaJ... https://plus.google.com/105051985738280261832/posts/2FXDCz8x93s https://plus.google.com/105051985738280261832/posts/2FXDCz8x... http://appadvice.com/appnn/2011/12/android-lag-attributed-to-core-system-framework-here-to-stay http://appadvice.com/appnn/2011/12/android-lag-attributed-to...
        scott_karana 14y ago
        The latest of those citations is December 2011. They may not reflect the current state of the Android OS. Android 4.1 and 4.2, codenamed "Jelly Bean", have been released since that time, with a "Project Butter" specifically aiming at GUI smoothness. I haven't had a chance to use anything newer than 4.0, myself, so I'm merely pointing this out. It could be the same for all I know.
        sbuk 14y ago
        Project butter did nothing for the Nexus S, which in my experience has been mady worse with Jelly Bean.
    - deleted 14y ago
      [deleted]
- VeejayRampay 14y ago
  I can see how my comment could be interpreted as hinting that Microsoft invented flat UI design, yet it wasn't the point I was trying to make as it is most likely untrue :) What I was going for here is that even though they didn't CREATE the movement of flat UI design, they most certainly helped its most recent resurgence in the "collective mind" by placing it back on the map with their Metro interface (which I think is actually pretty sweet yet still bears the marks of the older OS UI designs of the XP/Vista/7 era). And I somehow feel that there's a difference in treatment between Microsoft and Apple (case in point is Microsoft brilliant technology for on-the-fly translations in video conferences which blew my mind). Just to be clear about my intentions with this here comment, I dislike Windows as an OS, switched to Linux about 10 years ago and I am currently and happily running OS X, this is not fanboy-ism.
- drivebyacct2 14y ago
  Using my Dad's iPhone tonight was absolutely infuriating. I finally gave it back and told him to figure it out himself. That interface, the lack of a back button, it's so damn frustrating. The IM button with my old email address magically taking me to Facebook was one thing, still no freaking clue why it took me to Facebook. And then I couldn't go "Back", because there is no "Back". I tried the in-app back button - no, that was a huge mistake. So I double-tapped the home key and choose Phone or Contacts or whatever it is... and guess what? It was a completely different contact. What the hell? How am I supposed to get back to where I just was?
  - acchow 14y ago
    Don't even get me started on the Android "back button". I am still regularly baffled by its behaviour. Especially when combined with the "app within an app" you get when one app launches into another. Except not really. Android Police has a great writeup on Android design weirdness with a section titled 'The Back Button - Let's Just Rename It "Shuffle" ' http://www.androidpolice.com/2013/02/04/stock-android-isnt-perfect-jelly-bean-4-2-edition/ http://www.androidpolice.com/2013/02/04/stock-android-isnt-p...
    - drivebyacct2 14y ago
      It goes backward. It goes wherever you just were, unless it takes you up a level, and if you just press it again, it takes you back to the app you were in. It's really not hard. Contact app -> app an email address -> Gmail Compose window -BACK-> Contact app on the contact you were just on. It takes you backward, it is what makes intents and app interaction work. I can understand why its confusing to an Apple user because there is no equivalent functionality in iOS. Here, pretend there is no back button, yay! Android works like iOS and I'd go freaking insane. It sure as hell beats what happened to me in iOS tonight, who on Earth finds that usable? Every time one app invokes another I'm expected to go back to the homescreen and drill back down into the original app? Just shoot me.
      - cube13 14y ago
        > It goes backward. It goes wherever you just were, unless it takes you up a level, and if you just press it again, it takes you back to the app you were in. It's really not hard. And there's no way to tell if you're at the first "point" of the current application(in which case it will switch you to the previous one), or if it will go back to another place within the app. And the Android OS doesn't determine what the back button does. Individual applications do. So you're dealing with an OS control button that's extremely context sensitive and application specific. You don't know what the button's going to do until you use it in any app.
x3ord 14y ago
Hate to be a fanboy, but probably because they'd do an awesome job of it (where MS certainly has not).
- pekk 14y ago
  Apple can really do no wrong. It's impossible to think of any proposal Apple could have which would not receive this response, unless it was inoculating orphans with polio or something.
  - vor_ 14y ago
    Not only does Apple get criticized all the time, they get criticized the most by their own fans, as five minutes spent on any popular Apple forum would illustrate. Anyone who thinks that they get a pass for everything is intentionally ignoring both the media and the users.
    - nicholassmith 14y ago
      One of the biggest Mac writers even has a blog and defunct podcast called Hypercritical to talk about what Apple does wrong. There's a lot of loyalty, and some blinded by it, but it's often tempered with the realisation they aren't perfect.
  - lostlogin 14y ago
    Antennae gate, flash not on iOS, maps, no new Power Mac, new magsafe plug, new smaller idevice plug, making a bigger iphone when they said they wouldn't, making a smaller ipad when they said they wouldn't, introducing reading list in the face of instapaper-like services, the crappy icloud service, crappy mobileme service, the gizomodo raid, the lack of blocks on children buying in app stuff, blocking 3rd parties if they don't give 30% of in app purchase price to Apple, taking 30% of app price, imessage bugs, email search, ITUNES (all of it).
  - sirmarksalot 14y ago
    Apple has done some things that infuriate me -- for example, I still haven't upgraded to iOS 6 due to the whole Maps thing. However, I think I speak for even the most jaded Apple users when I say that I trust Jony Ive's design sense implicitly. Apple has been known to get a lot of things wrong, sometimes really important things, but never anything along these lines. I expect to be blown away.
gurkendoktor 14y ago
I doubt they'll go as flat as Microsoft did, it would create a mess of designs on iDevices. I think it will mostly be like Apple's new update to the Podcasts app - remove all the gimmicks, but keep the shadows and gradients on the same level as on OS X (outside of iCloud apps).
thomaslutz 14y ago
Not Windows8-flat, rather non-skeuomorphic.
- sigzero 14y ago
  Yes, this. Look at the new podcast app that was just updated.
  - clauretano 14y ago
    the old one, for anyone who never saw it, was made to look like a reel-to-reel magnetic tape player.
    - eridius 14y ago
      Am I the only person in the world who actually liked that?
      - nsfmc 14y ago
        i did too, i thought it was playful, but it was a pretty bad app performance wise on a 4 or 4s which was mind boggling.
    - ChiperSoft 14y ago
      Wow, I've been using the new update all day and never noticed that they changed the look until just now after reading your comment and looking directly at it.
rayiner 14y ago
Possibly because they'll do it right and not have the amorphous mess that is Windows 8? There's sparks of brilliance in Metro, but it's too goddamn flat. It's not obvious what parts of the UI can be clicked and manipulated. Apple is also hailed as genius for "inventing the tablet" even though Microsoft tried to make tablets happen for a decade before the iPad. It's just an example of execution having more impact than conceptualization.
- barista 14y ago
  Dismissing Microsoft's metro design by calling Windows 8 is a typical example of a straw man that you get to see here on HN. Flat design as it is done in the Metro UI on Windows 8 is gorgeous particularly on touch based machines. The fact that there also exists an older UI is because of the legacy that Microsoft has to support It's the price you have to pay for being in business for 30 years. I clearly see the need to go to non-metro UI diminishing as new updates and apps come along. Command line UI lingered on for a while after windows 3.1 came and the legacy UI will probably have the same lifeline.
  - rayiner 14y ago
    I'm talking about Metro. It's very pretty, but it's not all that functional. It uses space poorly and it's hard to distinguish what is manipulable and what is not. It's particularly problematic on WP8, because at least on a larger screen the physical separation of the UI elements gives some clue to what does what. E.g. the "people" app on WP8 is quite a mess. It's not at all clear how to get around in it.
    - kenjackson 14y ago
      E.g. the "people" app on WP8 is quite a mess. It's not at all clear how to get around in it. I just looked at the People app. I don't find anything confusing in it at all. Virtually everything in there is tapable. I didn't see a single thing in there that I thought someone would be confused about (at least with respect to the UI -- it's a bit confusing as to what content gets streamed in, but that has nothing to do with Metro).
kmfrk 14y ago
Metro flat results in poor UX, because we aren't conditioned to consider squares interactive objects; they have to be either underlined or round. It will probably be closer to Google's newer designs: https://itunes.apple.com/us/app/id585027354?mt=8 https://itunes.apple.com/us/app/id585027354?mt=8.
- acchow 14y ago
  Exactly. This is the problem. Android exasperates the problem by occasionally having interactive elements which look exactly identical to non-interactive elements. In "Settings>About>Phone Identity" I see 6 cells in a table. None of them look interactive. I would be 83% correct. One of them is. What is its behaviour? Tap to find out! Tapping "Phone name" results in a dialog with keyboard entry. Also, in some menus the cells have a switch on the right side. Tapping the switch of course toggles it. But for some of them, tapping the cell that contains the switch will toggle the switch and for others, there's an entirely other context hidden behind that cell! Tapping the cell brings you to another screen, instead of toggling the switch. How are these discoverable? This is insane.
ebbv 14y ago
Right because of all the tech companies in the world, Microsoft is the one with the history of unique innovation that is forgotten and ignored. I'm not saying Apple is either but come on, dude.
deleted 14y ago
[deleted]
Marazan 14y ago
John Gruber has already declared that Apple is at the forefront of flat design. I think he dismissively mention Microsoft once in his post on the topic.
jinushaun 14y ago
Because metro is flat design done poorly. Android does flat better.

Why do I have the impression that if they go flat, they'll be hailed as geniuses and Microsoft will be forgotten forever? (This comment guaranteed 100% conspirationist and crazy)

acchow 14y ago

Why do you think Microsoft invented flat UI design? I for one will miss the current iOS design. I'm 1 year into Android and I'm still way faster on iOS. There is a clear distinction between what is interaction vs. what is not and my eye instantly maps out the interactive elements on the screen.

cremnob 14y ago
I don't think you have to worry about it. They aren't going to make radical changes for the sake of tech geeks who are bored if the rest of the customer base likes things the way they are.
da_n 14y ago
Each to their own, I am the complete opposite. I came from an iPhone and switched to Android. I am much faster on Android, task switching is worlds apart, animations are faster and smoother, the apps I use follow Holo design language (this is by choice) meaning the UI is consistent and beautiful. I'm not saying it's perfect, there are some things I miss from iOS like unread badges (easy to get back with Nova Launcher however) and I did like Airplay, Android certainly has plenty of room to refine and improve, but it would take some massive and fundamental changes for me to consider switching back to iOS.
- coldtea 14y ago
  >animations are faster and smoother This is incorrect, and cannot be so for technical reasons. Even the Android OS team agrees on that. Perhaps you had the "new toy" effect?
  - fpgeek 14y ago
    Citation please? Cannot seems like an unreasonably strong claim. Given the way older iOS devices are often sluggish on newer OS releases, it seems entirely possible that the animations on the switched-from device were slower and less smooth than the animations on the switched-to device.
    - coldtea 14y ago
      Citation? Here, both sides actually: http://www.inspiredgeek.com/2011/12/07/why-android-graphics-are-laggy-while-ios-is-smooth-facts-practical-reality/ http://www.inspiredgeek.com/2011/12/07/why-android-graphics-... https://plus.google.com/100838276097451809262/posts/VDkV9XaJRGS https://plus.google.com/100838276097451809262/posts/VDkV9XaJ... https://plus.google.com/105051985738280261832/posts/2FXDCz8x93s https://plus.google.com/105051985738280261832/posts/2FXDCz8x... http://appadvice.com/appnn/2011/12/android-lag-attributed-to-core-system-framework-here-to-stay http://appadvice.com/appnn/2011/12/android-lag-attributed-to...
      - scott_karana 14y ago
        The latest of those citations is December 2011. They may not reflect the current state of the Android OS. Android 4.1 and 4.2, codenamed "Jelly Bean", have been released since that time, with a "Project Butter" specifically aiming at GUI smoothness. I haven't had a chance to use anything newer than 4.0, myself, so I'm merely pointing this out. It could be the same for all I know.
        sbuk 14y ago
        Project butter did nothing for the Nexus S, which in my experience has been mady worse with Jelly Bean.
  - deleted 14y ago
    [deleted]
VeejayRampay 14y ago
I can see how my comment could be interpreted as hinting that Microsoft invented flat UI design, yet it wasn't the point I was trying to make as it is most likely untrue :) What I was going for here is that even though they didn't CREATE the movement of flat UI design, they most certainly helped its most recent resurgence in the "collective mind" by placing it back on the map with their Metro interface (which I think is actually pretty sweet yet still bears the marks of the older OS UI designs of the XP/Vista/7 era). And I somehow feel that there's a difference in treatment between Microsoft and Apple (case in point is Microsoft brilliant technology for on-the-fly translations in video conferences which blew my mind). Just to be clear about my intentions with this here comment, I dislike Windows as an OS, switched to Linux about 10 years ago and I am currently and happily running OS X, this is not fanboy-ism.
drivebyacct2 14y ago
Using my Dad's iPhone tonight was absolutely infuriating. I finally gave it back and told him to figure it out himself. That interface, the lack of a back button, it's so damn frustrating. The IM button with my old email address magically taking me to Facebook was one thing, still no freaking clue why it took me to Facebook. And then I couldn't go "Back", because there is no "Back". I tried the in-app back button - no, that was a huge mistake. So I double-tapped the home key and choose Phone or Contacts or whatever it is... and guess what? It was a completely different contact. What the hell? How am I supposed to get back to where I just was?
- acchow 14y ago
  Don't even get me started on the Android "back button". I am still regularly baffled by its behaviour. Especially when combined with the "app within an app" you get when one app launches into another. Except not really. Android Police has a great writeup on Android design weirdness with a section titled 'The Back Button - Let's Just Rename It "Shuffle" ' http://www.androidpolice.com/2013/02/04/stock-android-isnt-perfect-jelly-bean-4-2-edition/ http://www.androidpolice.com/2013/02/04/stock-android-isnt-p...
  - drivebyacct2 14y ago
    It goes backward. It goes wherever you just were, unless it takes you up a level, and if you just press it again, it takes you back to the app you were in. It's really not hard. Contact app -> app an email address -> Gmail Compose window -BACK-> Contact app on the contact you were just on. It takes you backward, it is what makes intents and app interaction work. I can understand why its confusing to an Apple user because there is no equivalent functionality in iOS. Here, pretend there is no back button, yay! Android works like iOS and I'd go freaking insane. It sure as hell beats what happened to me in iOS tonight, who on Earth finds that usable? Every time one app invokes another I'm expected to go back to the homescreen and drill back down into the original app? Just shoot me.
    - cube13 14y ago
      > It goes backward. It goes wherever you just were, unless it takes you up a level, and if you just press it again, it takes you back to the app you were in. It's really not hard. And there's no way to tell if you're at the first "point" of the current application(in which case it will switch you to the previous one), or if it will go back to another place within the app. And the Android OS doesn't determine what the back button does. Individual applications do. So you're dealing with an OS control button that's extremely context sensitive and application specific. You don't know what the button's going to do until you use it in any app.

x3ord 14y ago

Hate to be a fanboy, but probably because they'd do an awesome job of it (where MS certainly has not).

pekk 14y ago
Apple can really do no wrong. It's impossible to think of any proposal Apple could have which would not receive this response, unless it was inoculating orphans with polio or something.
- vor_ 14y ago
  Not only does Apple get criticized all the time, they get criticized the most by their own fans, as five minutes spent on any popular Apple forum would illustrate. Anyone who thinks that they get a pass for everything is intentionally ignoring both the media and the users.
  - nicholassmith 14y ago
    One of the biggest Mac writers even has a blog and defunct podcast called Hypercritical to talk about what Apple does wrong. There's a lot of loyalty, and some blinded by it, but it's often tempered with the realisation they aren't perfect.
- lostlogin 14y ago
  Antennae gate, flash not on iOS, maps, no new Power Mac, new magsafe plug, new smaller idevice plug, making a bigger iphone when they said they wouldn't, making a smaller ipad when they said they wouldn't, introducing reading list in the face of instapaper-like services, the crappy icloud service, crappy mobileme service, the gizomodo raid, the lack of blocks on children buying in app stuff, blocking 3rd parties if they don't give 30% of in app purchase price to Apple, taking 30% of app price, imessage bugs, email search, ITUNES (all of it).
- sirmarksalot 14y ago
  Apple has done some things that infuriate me -- for example, I still haven't upgraded to iOS 6 due to the whole Maps thing. However, I think I speak for even the most jaded Apple users when I say that I trust Jony Ive's design sense implicitly. Apple has been known to get a lot of things wrong, sometimes really important things, but never anything along these lines. I expect to be blown away.

gurkendoktor 14y ago

I doubt they'll go as flat as Microsoft did, it would create a mess of designs on iDevices. I think it will mostly be like Apple's new update to the Podcasts app - remove all the gimmicks, but keep the shadows and gradients on the same level as on OS X (outside of iCloud apps).

thomaslutz 14y ago

Not Windows8-flat, rather non-skeuomorphic.

sigzero 14y ago
Yes, this. Look at the new podcast app that was just updated.
- clauretano 14y ago
  the old one, for anyone who never saw it, was made to look like a reel-to-reel magnetic tape player.
  - eridius 14y ago
    Am I the only person in the world who actually liked that?
    - nsfmc 14y ago
      i did too, i thought it was playful, but it was a pretty bad app performance wise on a 4 or 4s which was mind boggling.
  - ChiperSoft 14y ago
    Wow, I've been using the new update all day and never noticed that they changed the look until just now after reading your comment and looking directly at it.

rayiner 14y ago

Possibly because they'll do it right and not have the amorphous mess that is Windows 8? There's sparks of brilliance in Metro, but it's too goddamn flat. It's not obvious what parts of the UI can be clicked and manipulated. Apple is also hailed as genius for "inventing the tablet" even though Microsoft tried to make tablets happen for a decade before the iPad. It's just an example of execution having more impact than conceptualization.

barista 14y ago
Dismissing Microsoft's metro design by calling Windows 8 is a typical example of a straw man that you get to see here on HN. Flat design as it is done in the Metro UI on Windows 8 is gorgeous particularly on touch based machines. The fact that there also exists an older UI is because of the legacy that Microsoft has to support It's the price you have to pay for being in business for 30 years. I clearly see the need to go to non-metro UI diminishing as new updates and apps come along. Command line UI lingered on for a while after windows 3.1 came and the legacy UI will probably have the same lifeline.
- rayiner 14y ago
  I'm talking about Metro. It's very pretty, but it's not all that functional. It uses space poorly and it's hard to distinguish what is manipulable and what is not. It's particularly problematic on WP8, because at least on a larger screen the physical separation of the UI elements gives some clue to what does what. E.g. the "people" app on WP8 is quite a mess. It's not at all clear how to get around in it.
  - kenjackson 14y ago
    E.g. the "people" app on WP8 is quite a mess. It's not at all clear how to get around in it. I just looked at the People app. I don't find anything confusing in it at all. Virtually everything in there is tapable. I didn't see a single thing in there that I thought someone would be confused about (at least with respect to the UI -- it's a bit confusing as to what content gets streamed in, but that has nothing to do with Metro).

kmfrk 14y ago

Metro flat results in poor UX, because we aren't conditioned to consider squares interactive objects; they have to be either underlined or round. It will probably be closer to Google's newer designs: https://itunes.apple.com/us/app/id585027354?mt=8 https://itunes.apple.com/us/app/id585027354?mt=8.

acchow 14y ago
Exactly. This is the problem. Android exasperates the problem by occasionally having interactive elements which look exactly identical to non-interactive elements. In "Settings>About>Phone Identity" I see 6 cells in a table. None of them look interactive. I would be 83% correct. One of them is. What is its behaviour? Tap to find out! Tapping "Phone name" results in a dialog with keyboard entry. Also, in some menus the cells have a switch on the right side. Tapping the switch of course toggles it. But for some of them, tapping the cell that contains the switch will toggle the switch and for others, there's an entirely other context hidden behind that cell! Tapping the cell brings you to another screen, instead of toggling the switch. How are these discoverable? This is insane.

ebbv 14y ago

Right because of all the tech companies in the world, Microsoft is the one with the history of unique innovation that is forgotten and ignored. I'm not saying Apple is either but come on, dude.

deleted 14y ago

[deleted]

Marazan 14y ago

John Gruber has already declared that Apple is at the forefront of flat design. I think he dismissively mention Microsoft once in his post on the topic.

jinushaun 14y ago

Because metro is flat design done poorly. Android does flat better.