29 ms·

A Difficult Situation

• chris_mahan 14y ago
  I just hope Adria can learn from it, move on, and not let that cloud hang over her life. As far as the CEO, it's his fault, and he should have apologized to the community. He failed to properly train and prepare his "developer evangelist". As far as the guy who got fired, I hope he will find a better company to work with. Ok. Can we go back to discussing javascript ad infinitum?
• robomartin 14y ago
  What to say about this? The whole thing is a real train-wreck. Yes, the two guys --if they truly behaved as accused-- were being dumb. No, they were probably not being malicious. They were being guys. We can be morons at times. No they were not going to rape or molest anyone. It was just a dumb moment. And one of them lost his job for it. Probably the wrong outcome. And then there's this woman. Ready to jump the gun and not realize these dudes were just being idiots. Something which guys can do very well. Someone with more experience could have simply turned around and said something like "Hey, guys, c'mon, spare me the sexual jokes. You are being really rude.". Which would have elicited a red-faced apology from the guys and probably the potential for new friends and "Boy, were we a couple of idiots or what? Conversation". Everyone learns. I think largely due to her lack of life experience she chose the wrong option. Is this a meme today? Dump your life onto the Internet and let the hordes sort it out? The problem with this choice is that it isn't private in any way and you loose control the minute you do it. As she did. And it cost her a job. Which is a shame. It reminds me of a story I was told as a kid about telling lies being akin to ripping open a feather pillow atop a windy mountain. Once you do that it is nearly impossible to retrieve every feather. There are probably multiple lessons to be learned here by all involved, including casual observers: - Your actions have consequences. Be prepared to accept them as they are a result of your own decisions. - Don't put your life on display on the Internet. Few of those looking through the glass are your friends. A lot of harm could come from being so open. - Think before you act. And then think again. I was taught the "10M-10D-10Y" rating scale for the evaluation of situations requiring your response. You ask yourself three questions: 10M = Will this situation have a significant effect on me, my family, friends and loved ones within the next ten minutes? 10D = Same question, ten day period. 10Y = Same question, ten+ year period. If a situation will become completely and utterly unimportant in ten minutes, it isn't even worth a response. Guy cutting you off on the road. Someone lobbying an insult in your direction. A jerk challenging you on HN. Your kid dropped a glass on the floor and broke it. etc. If there will be consequences for ten days or so, take a look at the situation and decide on an appropriate and measured response to the problem. Someone stole your credit card of wallet. The IRS wants a tax return. You got a parking ticket. etc. If, on the other hand, the situation is such that it would affect you, your family and/or those close to you for ten or more years, the response would be vastly different. An extreme example would be that of being held-up at gun-point with your kids next to you. Or, possibly, doing a really stupid thing that affects your career for a long time (maybe not ten years, but years nevertheless). Anyhow, the point is that our actions have consequences and, unfortunately here are two folks who --fair or not-- will never forget the choices they made that day.
• minimaxir 14y ago
  In the end, the consequences that resulted from how she reported the conduct put our business in danger. Our commitment to our 130 employees, their families, our community members and our more than 130,000 valued customers is our primary concern. Is he referring to the DDOS there? Or the user exodus?
  • X-Istence 14y ago
    The answer to both is "Yes". When their service is down, companies can't send their email, when companies can't send their email using SendGrid they look for alternatives...
    • redthrowaway 14y ago
      Given how haphazard DDoS attacks (especially those in the 'hacktivism' category) tend to be, I'd be surprised if they targeted anything beyond SendMail's public-facing website. I would hope that their application servers wouldn't be on the same network as their web server.
      • shedd 14y ago
        The email gateway (smtp.sendgrid.com) and HTTP API endpoints were also down during the same outage period. Seems like it went beyond the public facing site.
    • _delirium 14y ago
      It would be weird to fire someone over other people's criminal activity. That reason would be akin to what Eugene Volokh has referred to as the "heckler's veto": when you e.g. cancel a controversial speech because thuggish opponents have threatened to cause trouble (call in fake bomb threats, etc.), and you blame the speaker for having drawn the thuggish behavior, rather than the people actually engaged in criminal activity. That said, they may have had legitimate reasons to fire her, but "people are illegally attacking us in order to get at her" is not one.
      • 14y ago
• rdl 14y ago
  This is the most reasonable statement I've seen so far in this whole fiasco. It's a shame he took so long to post it; it should have been the first SendGrid comment this morning.
  • gallerytungsten 14y ago
    While I agree it's eminently reasonable, it can sometimes take a day or two to work through a thorny issue, regain a sense of calm, and write something reasonable.
    • pifflesnort 14y ago
      Not to mention the importance of a thorough legal review, and actually speaking to the employee in question.
      • niggler 14y ago
        "thorough legal review, and actually speaking to the employee in question." Absolutely. Acting too quickly without fully understanding the situation could lead to a lawsuit
    • chimeracoder 14y ago
      In the past, I've tended to follow a '48-hour rule' when it comes to responding to emotionally-heated emails. Yes, 48 hours can seem like an eternity in the tech world, but it prevents accidentally exacerbating the situation by acting with good intentions yet without a clear head. This isn't even taking into account how long it takes to check with HR, legal, etc. All of which were probably necessary here.
      • twampss 14y ago
        +1 and well said. When I had legal issues with a client irrationally withholding payment, my lawyer suggested to wait four days to respond. Seems like an eternity, especially considering it's double from what you tend to follow (48 hours), it's amazing how much more reasonable your response can be juxtaposed to responding immediately.
• midge1b 14y ago
  "...her actions have strongly divided the same community she was supposed to unite. As a result, she can no longer be effective in her role at SendGrid." Anyone who thinks SendGrid were wrong to let her go should consider that. SendGrid did the right thing, they just took a bit too long to do it.
  • ritchiea 14y ago
    Really? Taking a few days to decide on a course of action is too long? When you're discussing firing an employee? Who may have performed well in her position before the incident for all we know?
    • midge1b 14y ago
      Sorry, I should probably have said took too long to talk about it, rather than do it. I completely agree that they needed to take time over their decision, but they should have posted this along with that initial statement earlier today.
      • ritchiea 14y ago
        I agree with that. The initial statement was lacking in empathy.
• fatjokes 14y ago
  Bravo. This is the only rational reason to fire her.
• babatu 14y ago
  THE BITCH IS DOWN! She's defeated, annihilated, crushed, destroyed, eliminated, pulverized, eradicated, downed, nullified, smashed, obliterated, felled, wrecked, finished, demolished, suppressed, shattered, exterminated!
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  • jmduke 14y ago
    I don't think the PlayHaven dudes were in the wrong, but you sure as hell are.
    • babatu 14y ago
      FUCK THE NAZIST MODERATORS IN THE ASS! AND IN CASE THEY LIKE THAT, MAY THEY GET FORCED TO EAT SHIT FOR ETERNITY!
• devilshaircut 14y ago
  I applaud SendGrid's response to this debacle. It is carefully weighed and expresses the precise reason why action absolutely needed to be taken. It is worthy of praise that they are willing to step into a very controversial issue and do what is best for their employees despite the potential fallout. I encourage anyone who was considering not using SendGrid's services in light of recent events to reconsider, given their reasoned, rational response to a difficult situation.
  • jennyjenjen 14y ago
    I just wish they had started out with this statement instead of abruptly announcing her firing. That just seemed uncharacteristic of SendGrid and rather inappropriate. However, you're very right in that it was a reasoned, rational response. It's tough to argue what Jim Franklin laid down in that post.
    • devilshaircut 14y ago
      True, I do agree with you that the order of events seemed a bit tactless.
• jerrya 14y ago
  The situation wasn't that difficult, and Sendgrid's response was inappropriate. Welcome to the Corporate State where every problematic statement you make as an errorful human being prone to making mistakes will be used against you to preserve the corporate bottom line. An actual appropriate response from SendGrid and Play Haven would have been recognition that its employees are human's first, and all of us are subject to making mistakes of one form or another. That they back their employees, and support them, even as they disagree with their statements or their behaviors. I detest what you write, but I would give my life to make it possible for you to continue to write It is ironic, it is tragic that SendGrid, an email delivery company, chose to fire an employee expressing speech, as opposed to just offering more speech in rebuttal. The answer to the ugly free speech of Adria Richards is more speech, not firings. (Yes, Hacker News, downvote my comment. Make sure a reasonably stated position that disagrees with you is shown its place.)
  • jlgreco 14y ago
    I am curious what you make of this portion of the response in particular: "A SendGrid developer evangelist’s responsibility is to build and strengthen our Developer Community across the globe. In light of the events over the last 48+ hours, it has become obvious that her actions have strongly divided the same community she was supposed to unite. As a result, she can no longer be effective in her role at SendGrid."
    • jerrya 14y ago
      I consider that to be fluff and nonsense. 48 hours is not the right interval to be making that judgment. And firing her in response to correct the situation was about the worse and most extreme of actions. (And please note, I think Richards made a mistake and showed terrible judgment.)
      • jlgreco 14y ago
        In the sense that you don't think it was a valid conclusion, or in the sense that given that conclusion, it was a nonsense reason to fire her? This aspect of the situation seems exceedingly clear to me.
• subsystem 14y ago
  In my opinion he's a coward that doesn't stand behind his employees and that goes for PlayHaven too. They've set a terrible precedent for the industry.
  • robotmay 14y ago
    He is standing behind his employees; by protecting the jobs of those not involved in the drama. Any CEO who would stand behind an employee to the death of their company would not be CEO for very long.
    • mtrimpe 14y ago
      Why did they feel the need to very publicly post this dismissal (and withdraw, and then reissue) in the heat of the moment while under a DDoS attack though, rather than sooner or later? It very much feels like a cowardly act of throwing someone under a bus.
      • subsystem 14y ago
        When your employee is being called nasty things all over the Internet[0] over something that happened while she was doing work you sent her out to do and your solution is to fire said person, then you are a coward. It doesn't matter if what she did was a mistake, if you had to reassign her, even suspend her or let her go eventually. When people are disrespecting your employees, especially employees associated with your good name, any decent leader fights back. [0] https://twitter.com/search/realtime?q=adria+richards+cunt&src=typd https://twitter.com/search/realtime?q=adria+richards+cunt&#3... https://www.facebook.com/adriarichards/posts/633920489967718 https://www.facebook.com/adriarichards/posts/633920489967718
      • muratmutlu 14y ago
        I think there are several ways that she could have handled this, she picked the wrong one
      • mlent 14y ago
        I totally agree. While I agree with the dismissal, it's like they're trying to save themselves by sacrificing an employee to the angry masses. Not a whole lot of tact going on in this entire situation...
• forrestthewoods 14y ago
  I have little to no knowledge of laws in this area. However my gut tells me that Sendgrid is opening themselves up to a hell of a lawsuit. Can anyone who actually does know about such matters comment?
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  • niggler 14y ago
    With most firms, when you join you are required to sign an agreement. In that agreement, usually it is stated that you agree to comply to a certain employee handbook or standards of conduct. If she violated the standards of conduct, since employment is conditional on compliance, they can fire her and will most likely win any lawsuit on the matter unless a court deems that the standards themselves are illegal.
    • guan 14y ago
      Most private sector employees in the US are employed at will, which means that they can be fired for any reason or for no reason. There’s a specific set of reasons that you can’t fire an employee for, including some kinds of discrimination (race, sex, religion, and a few other categories). You don’t necessarily need to violate an employee handbook, although if there is a risk that the employer is accused of discrimination, a violation of company rules could help the employer in case there’s a lawsuit.
  • mikeg8 14y ago
    Same. I am also very curious about any legal consequences Sendgrid may be subjected to, even though I COMPLETELY support their actions (and the ability for business managers to have more power over terminating employees).
  • peripetylabs 14y ago
    I doubt that. It is explicitly against the PyCon Code of Conduct to photograph attendees without their permission. Adria Richards did just that, on company time.
• paulnelligan 14y ago
  Not withstanding the upshot, I'm always wondering about the ill effect of technology on society. This is a painful example. Take it easy everyone!
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• edgesrazor 14y ago
  I only wish PlayHaven had released something this thorough as well. Maybe a lot of this could have been avoided, or at least less vitriolic.
  • changdizzle 14y ago
    they did - http://blog.playhaven.com/addressing-pycon/ http://blog.playhaven.com/addressing-pycon/
    • edgesrazor 14y ago
      "...we will not comment on all the factors that contributed to our parting ways" That's what I was referring to. There's so many things that could have been done differently on all sides, but I can't help but wonder the real reason the employee was terminated so quickly. With as much as this has escalated, I think a lot of people are owed at least that.
• nilkn 14y ago
  Even if I agree with the decision, this is incredibly hard to read. I hate to see someone lose their job over something like this. Yet I can't disagree with anything he wrote. I personally hope she will learn from this and another company will give her a new chance. The odds of that are slim given how big this has become--it's front-paging repeatedly on HN and /r/programming. But I'd hate to see her whole career ruined over a mistake she could learn from. (Though, to be fair, she has not seemed too eager to admit to any mistakes online so far.)
  • blantonl 14y ago
    You live by the sword, you die by the sword. Social media is an incredibly powerful tool - especially when you are good at "it" and you wield influence. Trip up on your own shoelaces and you run tremendous risk of social media backfiring on you.
  • Proleps 14y ago
    According to this article[1] this was not a single mistake, but a pattern of how she handles things. [1] https://amandablumwords.wordpress.com/2013/03/21/3/ https://amandablumwords.wordpress.com/2013/03/21/3/
    • ChuckMcM 14y ago
      That added some much needed back story to this very sad chapter.
    • enjo 14y ago
      That blog post is the single most reasonable thing I've read on the entire subject. Good on the author.
    • vivin 14y ago
      Wow! What a well-written post. I had no idea that this was a pattern of behavior. It kind of makes sense now. She seems to be extremely touchy and looks for issues where there are none, or simply creates issues out of thin air. Thank you for that link.
    • 14y ago
• nathanfp 14y ago
  A very thoughtful response by SendGrind in a trying and complicated situation. Good work.
• peripetylabs 14y ago
  It is never appropriate to distribute photographs of people without their permission, in any context. I think SendGrid is justified in their decision.
  • milesskorpen 14y ago
    That's ridiculous. Not only is it completely legal (assuming the people don't have a reasonable expectation of privacy), it's enormously common. Half the photographs on Twitter would violate the social rule you're suggesting.
    • bigjust 14y ago
      Most of Twitter is inappropriate.
  • albedoa 14y ago
    Since I don't know your country of residence, I will reserve additional comment, but that is a pretty radical statement for me to read as an American.
• shock-value 14y ago
  It'll be interesting to see if the relevant party here is going to seek legal action against SendGrid for the firing. Without commenting about whether there is any legal basis (I have no idea), it seems like doing so would seriously hinder any efforts to find another job in the tech field in the future. Yet it wouldn't surprise me to see it happen, given this individual's seemingly extreme reactions to perceived slights (themselves minuscule compared to actually being fired, justified or not).
• hanleybrand 14y ago
  It's kind of a shame that two people got fired - but I did think it was weird when the person having a private convo was fired but not the person who used their corporate position to launch a public attack on the former was not. But for the record I'd have preferred that no one lose their job.
• minimax 14y ago
  Just think of all the things you could be doing with your time that don't involve following this stupid Internet drama. Now go do one of those things. Seriously this is such a waste of time.
  • niggler 14y ago
    " following this stupid Internet drama" You know why you should pay attention to this? One day, you may find yourself in the same situation that the SendGrid CEO is in today. At that point, knowing how to react stands between a momentary headache and a multi-million-dollar business-crippling headache.
• anaheim 14y ago
  I know there are a lot of people who think "Obviously this was the right response to the situation..what the heck was she thinking?", but have been silent because of the massively feminist-dominated media these days. Hypothetically, a female can now overhear a dick joke between two gay men, twitter their photographs, and get them fired from their jobs because the company that employs them does not have their backs. If you want this situation to improve, and not live in fear any more, there are a few things you should do immediately. Here is the thinking person's guide to how to navigate the murky waters of our industry. I say person because I know both gay and straight women who hate the massively PC dominated atmosphere of most software companies these days: 1) NEVER hire a woman to fill some sort of quota, or because of some abstract objective like "We probably need more women in the company." You will end up attracting this sort of extreme feminist "female evangelist" who runs around with a chip on her shoulder constantly complaining about sexism. 2) NEVER say anything sexual at a conference to anyone. DO NOT speak to females who are attending the conference beyong absolutely professional matters. For heaven's sake, do not ask a female if her boyfriend is the one attending. DO NOT reveal any personal details about yourself. You probably earn enough as a software developer, so if you want sexual intercourse, get a call girl (just being honest and practical here). It is not that expensive. Remember that prostitution is legal in Canada. 3) Avoid all social contact with women in your company. Date outside the industry if possible. 4) If you are forcefully pulled into a discussion about sexism in the industry, pretend to agree with their points ("Yes, women often face blatant sexism in the industry"), etc. and politely CUT the conversation as fast as possible. NEVER show a men's rights perspective because you will be labeled as weird. Just stop talking to that person. If you want to show your perspective, show it through your vote the next time there is an election. 5) NEVER engage in dialog with male feminists like Matthew Garrett. Follow point 4) if they start talking to you about sexism in the tech industry.
• JoshTriplett 14y ago
  Anyone else seeing all the 'f' characters on sendgrid's site as some strange punctuation character?
  • takluyver 14y ago
    Yes. It is an f character, but something about the font means the 'stalk' doesn't get rendered unless I zoom in.
  • prawn 14y ago
    Confusion from a PDF copy? Sometimes happens with "fi" ligatures.
• josh-j 14y ago
  I think Adria could have avoided this if she apologized not for reporting the offenders to pycon, but for publicly identifying them. She was given the perfect opportunity for this when one of the offenders apologized for their own misstep in a hacker news thread that she herself commented in (https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5398681 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5398681).
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• mkr-hn 14y ago
  There was a chance to turn a two sided error into a stronger community. Now both trenches are dug even further.
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• julesie 14y ago
  In the end we have two people out of a job. It is a sad outcome but Adria's position had simply become untenable. Personally I know who seems the more employable of the two. I do hope Adria gets the time to step back and learn something from this sorry incident. There are no winners here.
  • blantonl 14y ago
    There are no winners here. Most powerful statement I've seen yet about this issue. Literally no one can walk away and claim "victory" on this issue. The worst part is that 130,000 customers + 2 job holders were impacted by something so insignificant in the whole grand scheme of things. Ah, the power of social media....
• arrrg 14y ago
  So she was actually fired because of the DDoS: “In the end, the consequences that resulted from how she reported the conduct put our business in danger. Our commitment to our 130 employees, their families, our community members and our more than 130,000 valued customers is our primary concern.” Firing someone because of the criminal activity of someone else seems very weird. At least he is opening himself up to that interpretation. Maybe the “consequences” are just disgruntled customers deciding to take their business elsewhere or the loss in trust in her, resulting in a reduced ability of her to do her job effectively, but in that context also talking about the “130,000 valued customers” is very weird. I can only assume that he was at least also referring to the DDoS when talking about the consequences. To me it’s pretty clear that if the DDoS played any role in their decision, then it’s at least partly based on immoral cowardice.
  • midge1b 14y ago
    No, she was fired because "she can no longer be effective in her role at SendGrid". Which makes sense, considering her role was to strengthen developer relations...
    • arrrg 14y ago
      I do not disagree with you that the statement also named that as a reason for firing her. All I’m saying that if the DDoS played any part in their decision to fire her, then that part of the justification for their decision represents immoral cowardice to me.
      • Yver 14y ago
        named that? Which part? I think you're perceiving things that are not there.
        • arrrg 14y ago
          I quoted the segment where I think the statement makes reference to the DDoS. It is open to interpretation, but I don’t think it’s an unreasonable interpretation.
• buf 14y ago
  What a tough day for Sendgrid, Playhaven, and the developer community as a whole. I've been following this story the last 24 hours and I'm already fatigued. Let's pick up the pieces and work together to unite once again. Our role as technologists is to build technology. Let us not forget that.
  • bird_in_hand 14y ago
    I agree. This has just been blown so catastrophically out of proportion, and for no good reason. Neither Adria nor the developers did anything worth getting fired over.
• CurtMonash 14y ago
  It's obvious that she had to go, because in her primary job -- popularize SendGrid -- she now has negative value. If you believe she was blamelessly in the right, that's an argument for giving her a massive severance package. Even at that kind of expense, however, the severing was necessary.
• haydenj0nes 14y ago
  Okay that font is terrible, not rendering correctly prob due to some JS error. :(
• kirp 14y ago
  THE BITCH IS DOWN! She's defeated, annihilated, crushed, destroyed, eliminated, pulverized, eradicated, downed, nullified, smashed, obliterated, felled, wrecked, finished, demolished, suppressed, shattered, exterminated!
• skylan_q 14y ago
  Where have all the grown-ups gone? What ever happened to those people who didn't have to make a scene of things that should have just been ignored?
  • enjo 14y ago
    This was never about decency. I don't really believe that this was even about being offended. For people who make their living in social media, that follower count is the most important currency. Adria most definitely fits that mold, and any case where she can stir up controversy and increase that follower count is huge for her. I think that's all this was. She has a history of grandstanding, all in an effort to drive more visitors to her blog and to follow her on Twitter. It resulted in her being hired by Sendgrid in the first place. This was just another page out of the same playbook. At one point she compared herself to Joan of Arc for crying out loud. Surely she doen't believe that? So this isn't about decency, it's about attention. Sometimes you win these, and sometimes you lose. It all depends on if you can get the mob on your side or not. Hell compare this to Alexandria Goddard, who stirred up the mob in the Stuebenville rape case. She's been lauded as a hero, for riling people up over a case in which the police had ALREADY ARRESTED THE PEOPLE RESPONSIBLE. She cried out for justice, in the shrillest way possible, and the mob descended on the town. These kids were going to end up in jail regardless, but nothing like a good old fashioned internet lynch mob to make it better. Oh ya, and the blogger gets a bunch of new followers and readers while she's at it. Again, not about decency or sense (in the Stuebenville case I feel like those kids deserved a fair trial before we threw them under the bus). It's about hurting others to advance yourself. It's a rather sickening tendency that the Internet has made far too profitable. Worse yet, I fear there is a whole generation coming up that doesn't know the difference.
    • newman314 14y ago
      Interesting that you mention the follower count thing, Adria's follower has increased from 9000+ over over 11,000 (just checked) since this morning. I only mentioned this because I was reading her twitter stream earlier today and happened to note her follower count.
• onemorepassword 14y ago
  I'm still missing something. Although it's obviously the right conclusion that she can no longer function a evangelist, I find it hard to believe that she now has zero value for the company. You don't completely discard a previously valued employee over one fuck-up. Unless either that person is utterly useless in any other capacity, there is previous history or they are completely unwilling to accept that they made a mistake. But even in those cases you would normally give someone the option to resign. Or the customary "mutual decision to part ways".
  • shock-value 14y ago
    Maybe they did, and she refused?
  • Shivetya 14y ago
    there is a might big difference between one "fuck-up" and one royal of a "fuck-up". This falls in the later camp. Perhaps they were hoping the person in question would have realized they should have taken that action on their own. Considering the past activities of this person I highly suspect they will feel wronged on many counts.
  • gregd 14y ago
    What value to you suppose she had at Sendgrid when she fucked up her current position, "In light of the events over the last 48+ hours, it has become obvious that her actions have strongly divided the same community she was supposed to unite. As a result, she can no longer be effective in her role at SendGrid."? Developer? Janitor? Office Manager? What? People get fired all the time over one fuckup...some are colossal and some...not so much. What are you missing?
• fingerprinter 14y ago
  Who didn't see this coming? And when she pulled SendGrid, her employer, publicly into the fray via her twitter feed, who didn't know it was simply a matter of time? I mean, what else could SendGrid possibly do? She basically forced them to fire her. Her value to the company is being a public face to developers. She very publicly destroyed that value. Further, she pulled SendGrid in with her tweet about them "supporting" her. Had she not done that, she might have had a fighting chance, but it almost seems like she wanted to get fired. Not to mention that a company wants to employ people with impeccable judgement, particularly for public facing positions. She showed incredibly horrid judgment in how she initiated the situation and continued to display horrid judgement in her handling of it. Do you want someone with horrible judgement being your public face and voice? I don't put much stock in the DDoS talk, FYI. No reputable company fires someone b/c they are being blackmailed. Though, perhaps I'm giving too much credit here, I don't know. Either way, it should not comes as a surprise to anyone that this is the outcome.
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  • rooshdi 14y ago
    She didn't force them to fire her. People are just blowing this way out of proportion. Everybody needs to chill out, especially the corporate management of both companies.
    • dtf 14y ago
      You're right. But it must be pretty terrifying to be caught in a flash-fire internet shitstorm like this - reputation concerns to weigh up on the one hand, and operational concerns on the other.
    • weixiyen 14y ago
      holy shit, common sense
    • fingerprinter 14y ago
      > She didn't force them to fire her. What would you have done in the situation? You're the CEO of a company. You have someone in a glorified PR position. That same person has caused massive blowback by not once, not twice, but multiple times showing extreme poor judgement. This person then makes a public statement saying your company "supports" that person thereby ostensibly pulling the company into the fight. What would you do? It would take all of five seconds for me to ship that person out. Even if you are working on a three strike position; all three strikes came in the last few days. This has nothing to do with the DDoS. This has to do with having someone in a position representing the company to your target audience and not just doing a poor job of it, but doing such a trainwreck of a job that the company's PR needs to spin up to defcon 1. Doesn't that person seem unfit for the job?
• powertower 14y ago
  They need to update that statement with the fact that the joke was not about her, nor directed at her. Their statement leaves that very important part out, making the reader think otherwise - that she was the victim. At the same time (or around that time) this was happening, here is a conversation she was having - http://i.imgur.com/nRC5J7f.png http://i.imgur.com/nRC5J7f.png Another gem from years ago - http://imgur.com/5tbXR2c http://imgur.com/5tbXR2c I'd imagine she was looking for any excuse she could find to be offended, and play the victim card. And then bringing her employer into this mess - > @SendGrid supports me. https://twitter.com/adriarichards/status/314452708549603328 https://twitter.com/adriarichards/status/314452708549603328 ...should have been the firable offence IMO.
  • eridius 14y ago
    Can people please stop bringing up that tweet? It has absolutely nothing to do with what happened at PyCon. Whatever she says on her own personal twitter feed is wholly unrelated to what happens at a professional event. Especially since the only people who see her tweet are people that have explicitly chosen to do so (either by following her or by following someone's link to it). What is acceptable in an opt-in scenario is wildly different than what is acceptable when unwilling bystanders are listening.
    • seivan 14y ago
      Character flaw.
      • mtrimpe 14y ago
        Also known as the good old ad-hominem attack.
        • devcpp 14y ago
          No, it's a lack of consistency. This is required of every person making a claim, not her specifically, so this has nothing to do with ad hominem.
• skatoshi 14y ago
  THE BITCH IS DOWN! She's defeated, annihilated, crushed, destroyed, eliminated, pulverized, eradicated, downed, nullified, smashed, obliterated, felled, wrecked, finished, demolished, suppressed, shattered, exterminated!
• razfar 14y ago
  I personally think Ms. Richards did the right thing. Rather than just brush it off like most people do, she stood up for herself using 21st century tools!
• abcut 14y ago
  Ladies and gentlemen, this is important! TH3 B1TCH 1S D0WN!
• jacobsenscott 14y ago
  What happened to their 'f's? http://imgur.com/kodVRzu http://imgur.com/kodVRzu
• dia80 14y ago
  Leadership isn't always easy. Plaudits for doing what they felt bad to be done.
• nilved 14y ago
  Dear SendGrid: you caved to stop the DDoS. There is no sense lying about it. You're spineless and cowardly and we're not going to forget.
• dobbsbob 14y ago
  Surprised they don't already have DDoS protection should be standard for this kind of service. Whenever I put up a new service/site, the first thing I think about is my competitors attacking me with DDoS, disgruntled ex employees or crazy customers. SendGrid especially. They're handling bulk emails, you know spammers are going to try to abuse the service and end up cut off. Stands to reason said spammers may launch a botnet attack on the site I'd have wrapped up DDoS protection from day #1 and said twitter lynch mob wouldn't stand much of a chance.
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• erikpukinskis 14y ago
  Can someone explain to me why "she can no longer be effective in her role at SendGrid"? She tweeted an inappropriate comment that someone made to her in a public forum. I genuinely don't understand why this would affect anyone's professional relationship with her.
  • WalterSear 14y ago
    Do you mean this tweet from the conference: https://twitter.com/adriarichards/status/312265091791847425 https://twitter.com/adriarichards/status/312265091791847425 Or the other one with the photo? :) As a developer, considering this, and the other damning stuff in her twitter stream, and her alleged previous track record at other conferences, I would not feel comfortable interacting with her. So, whatever my reasoning, she's no longer going to be able to reach me, so she's kind of useless (to me) as an evangelist.
    • erikpukinskis 14y ago
      The one about the photo. I hadn't seen the tweet you linked. Can you explain why you're not comfortable interacting with her?
      • WalterSear 14y ago
        The fear of arbitrary public shaming over the equivalent of a misheard comment and failed joke.
  • TheSmoke 14y ago
    nope. nobody made an inappropriate comment to her nor any females in that gathering. she tweeted a joke that was made in a private conversation which she overheard.
  • bluehat 14y ago
    Her action, and the actions she followed that action up with, caused a huge rift in the developer community. Her job is to unite the developer community and help them access the product.
• manys 14y ago
  Dear Sendgrid, negative margin tricks are annoying: http://www.imgur.com/ul4JoSD.png http://www.imgur.com/ul4JoSD.png
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• abalone 14y ago
  Does anyone remember the ApacheCon Noirin Shirley / Florian Leibert scandal from a few years back, where she wrote a blog post accusing him of sexual assault at a conference party? So would SendGrid FIRE Shirley for resorting to "publicly shaming" him in a blog post, if she had a public role in the company? Would her blog post be in violation of PyCon conference policy? To be 100% clear, I'm not suggesting the dongle joke rises to the level of sexual assault. But the general policy against "public shaming" that's being put in place here for PyCon, and as a fireable offense at companies like SendGrid, doesn't stop at dick jokes. What do you think, could this prohibition against "public shaming" have a chilling effect on victims' right to speak out?
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• DivisibleByZero 14y ago
  A seriously impressive email. As many before me have stated this is a bad situation for SendGrid and I wasn't sure if firing their employee was a good move on their part. This post does a wonderful job addressing everything it needs to in a concise, and appropriate way. Kudos to SendGrid for the wondrous job navigating a very sticky situation.
• brennenHN 14y ago
  My email to Jim Franklin: Hi Jim, You have a mess on your hands, and I understand how hard it must be at SendGrid today. I think you've made a defensible move, and it is hard to hold you in contempt for putting your employees and business first. That said, I'm really disappointed in your response. For as long as there have been tech conferences, they have been hostile to women. Sexually exclusive language is the starting point for harassment and assault that have been the status quo for the tech industry for decades. (tech isn't alone here, of course) A woman trying to report these offenses often went completely unheard. The crimes were completely silenced by a community that protected itself with homogeny, and the results are strikingly obvious in the number of women working, participating, and attending conferences in technology. This deeply-rooted problem is finally beginning to surface, and we're starting to talk about solutions in a productive way. PyCon was at the forefront of that as they worked incredibly hard to make women feel accepted. Their no-harassment policy and work to get more women speaking and attending represent a huge amount of progress. It has been a very public effort by the conference, and the results were impressive. A huge number of women showed up to a space they thought would be more welcoming. Of course, it wasn't perfect. Though we've made a lot of progress, there's still a long way to go before we'll get rid of exclusive attitudes towards women. What's really disappointing, though, is that when a woman at this conference felt uncomfortable and made her discomfort public, she lost her job. Her peers, our technology community, responded to her statement with incredible hostility. Threats of rape and murder were abundant yesterday, and we attacked a woman for expressing her discomfort publicly. Some people, like yourself, said that it would be okay for her to express her discomfort privately, but that the publicity is what made it a problem. But in doing so, you're asking her to give up her voice. You're asking her to stay silent about an incredibly serious problem. All she did was report factual discomfort publicly. She didn't lie or slander. And now she's lost her job for it. The message is obvious: women aren't allowed to report misconduct like this. We don't want to hear about the sexual misconduct in our community. A woman's discomfort is her own problem, not ours. That's the wrong message.
  • gregd 14y ago
    I'm curious to know whether you actually read their response. "To be clear, SendGrid supports the right to report inappropriate behavior, whenever and wherever it occurs. What we do not support was how she reported the conduct."
• milesf 14y ago
  FTA: "Publicly shaming the offenders – and bystanders – was not the appropriate way to handle the situation." So you publicly fire your employee? You hypocrites! If an employer decides it's necessary to let someone go because of a debacle like what's happened here, that's fine. But let the person go with dignity and respect, even if the person doesn't deserve it. If you publicly throw your employees under the bus, what does that say to your remaining employees? All of us, and I mean ALL OF US have made mistakes like what Adria and Mr. Hank have done. But after the firestorm has died down and we're on to some other inane drama on the internet, these two people will be left struggling to make sense of why they were fired in such a publicly shaming way. What a horrible mess.
  • k-mcgrady 14y ago
    >> So you publicly fire your employee? You hypocrites! They didn't have a choice. The situation was being followed by the media and if they fired her privately it would be leaked and would give other people the opportunity to spin it. She publicly pulled her employer into the situation on Twitter - from that point on that had no choice but to make their position clear publicly.
  • nilved 14y ago
    They only fired her to stop the DDoS. If they didn't post it publicly, it wouldn't have made a difference.
• andrewfelix 14y ago
  It would be nice to be able to come down unequivocally on one side of this. But it's just such a clusterfuck, it is awful for everyone involved. What a mess.
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  • kamakazizuru 14y ago
    It's completely valid if you take into account the fact that anonymous and other groups threatened to DDOS sendgrid (and AFAIK they even suffered an attack yesterday). But then again..you've never really been one to take a minute to know facts before you pass judgement have you? :)
  • BrainInAJar 14y ago
    "At what point does the start-up world help the business world evolve past the point of such corporate-speak bullshit." In favour of what, startup world bullshit ? ('pivot' and so on.) Any time a corporate entity tries to address people it comes out sounding like bullshit
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  • larrys 14y ago
    "Does anyone really believe this?" Perhaps use of "danger" was a bit strong but they've identified an area of concern (that might be future concern as well) and have decided to cut it out now. This statement makes plenty of sense to me. The fact that it might sound like corporate-speak bullshit doesn't detract from the point being made.
• larrys 14y ago
  "Needless to say, a heated public debate ensued. The discourse, productive at times, quickly spiraled into extreme vitriol." Live by the sword die by the sword. Probably one of the reasons that many people decide to stay anon on HN and online I'm sure. One minute you're the darling and the next minute everyone is in your grill and judging your actions. (Remembering what happened to edw519 recently..)
• jpdoctor 14y ago
  My understanding of labor litigation: This post will cost the company at least $150K. IANAL, would be curious to hear the readout from someone who is in the field.
• etchalon 14y ago
  I wish I had a more insightful comment, but really, all I want to add is: Good.
• cletus 14y ago
  I'm honestly surprised that anyone is attacking Sendgrid, defending Ms Richards, attacking PyCon or defending Playhaven in this incident. The fact is that what you do reflects on your employer to a degree. If you're a developer evangelist, that's quite a high degree, particularly if you drag them into your public spat. Most people in the media (news readers and so forth) have a "morals clause" in their contract because they publicly represent the company. This situation is much the same. I, for example, am just a software engineer. I pretty much stay away from any thread involving Google directly as I don't want anything I say to be misconstrued as representing the company's view. We have a media relations department for that. Those defending Ms Richards might say "on your personal time you can do what you want" (to me). Well, yes and no. It's certainly at my peril. Also, in Ms Richard's case, at PyCon she was on official (or at least semi-official) duties so the "personal time" argument doesn't even apply. This whole incident reads like two guys making jokes to themselves. She overheard and decided to make an issue of it by naming and shaming them in a very public way while waving her employer's flag. Nevermind that this wasn't called for (IMHO), I don't believe for a second that the comments were directed at her or intended for her to hear. The fact that Playhaven fired this engineer over this is disappointing. A public statement about supporting diversity and a warning from HR really should've been sufficient (again, IMHO). It makes me wonder if they wanted to fire him anyway. Some other commenters suggest Ms Richards can sue. I tend to disagree but IANAL. I do however think the fired engineer may have a case. He can show damages (losing his job) and argue that Ms Richards (and her employer had they not fired her) had acted with reckless disregard. I'm not sure it's a strong case but I bet it's an arguable case. Sendgrid's statement is (IMHO) excellent. It is measured, factual and has a great tone. This is not a position they wanted to be in (from reading the post). They've deliberated. They state a great bottom line that this issue and the subsequent fallout endangers their business. They don't want to be the story here and Ms Richards made them the story. That's on her. Let this be a lesson to all reading this: what you do can affect your employment. Act with care and restraint. Once something is said or done it can be very difficult to roll it back.
  • stephengillie 14y ago
    The joke was between 2 people seated behind her -- were both engineers at Playhaven? Was the other person fired? Edit: Why the downvotes? Is there something I've missed? Does this comment really prevent further discussion on the issue?
• marshray 14y ago
  Good on SendGrid for owning up to their decision and not gracing with a mention the (rumored) threat of DDoS.
• hkmurakami 14y ago
  C-level people seem to often find themselves in such a scandal and are thrust into the limelight but are able to find a new position (usually) since C-level people are typically a scarce commodity. But in this case, the person is a mid-level person who's been vilified in her industry in a very very public way. She obviously can't ever go back to being a developer evangelist. How does she find work again? Does she go back to being a developer? But will any companies take her then? (I guess the big companies would, particularly places like Yahoo which are ailing for talent) I wonder how a person climbs back up after being thrust into a deep, deep chasm in such a public way.
• laurentoget 14y ago
  Wow..fire your employee for being a victim of sexual bullying... just great!
• fakeer 14y ago
  Oh dear God. People are fired summarily in this manner over a joke two buddies/strangers were sharing. If the trend continues males shall start whispering when a female comes near at a conference and maybe just ignore them or move to another place, because you never know what shall be perceived as against. I guess the the ones who are at real risk here are the two genders. Another blow to widen the gap. "I will be at pycon 2014, I will joke and socialize with everyone but I will also be mindful of my audience, accidental or otherwise." - [1] Just because of one irresponsible and casual remark by a female marketer killing livelihoods of two male engineers. What I find specially chilling and mean is - "she smiled while she snapped the pic and sealed my fate."[1] And people being convicted without a trial is fine for Internet and troll but two companies firing away like "you are no longer welcome at this bar because you shouted at another guy outside our bar". So, taking sides and standing for someone needs just one thing - just being born in the same gender? That's it? [https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5398681 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5398681]
• mlent 14y ago
  It's all blown out of proportion. Though, I, personally, would be a bit offended by an "I would fork that repo" comment -- because intentions aside, it reminds me of things that have been said to and about me, and you can't say it without making certain connotations. This woman has been getting rape and death threats as well. It was stupid, inconsiderate, and unprofessional to post a picture, and the guy doesn't deserve to be fired, but that doesn't justify the backlash. Despite a few sympathies I have with Richards, I do think she deserves to lose her job for her poor judgement. I hope that in the future she continues her work towards getting more women and WoC into tech, but in a more tactful way.
• jfoster 14y ago
  This isn't news. It's drama. The less attention people pay to all of it, the better.
• beatpanda 14y ago
  I will never use SendGrid. They just contributed to the already extreme difficulty of reporting sexual harassment and they should be ashamed of themselves. I hope they get sued for this and lose.
• khet 14y ago
  Regardless of what happens I hope both employers at least offer to hire them back. People make mistakes. Figure out a way for everyone to learn from it and move on. There will be better times.
• trhtrsh 14y ago
  A bit weaselly to say "she can no longer be effective in her role at SendGrid" without saying what it implies, whether her employment at SendGrid is ending.
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• sabe__ 14y ago
  "People who get offended should be offended" - Linus Torvalds I see a lot of offended people here...
• QuantumGood 14y ago
  If the joke teller was not fired by Playhaven, Anon would likely not have attacked SendGrid, Ms. Richards would likely not have been fired either, and there would be far, far less controversy overall to discuss. So the incident that leveraged the situation into such a huge controversy was the firing by Playhaven. And Playhaven has stated "we will not comment on all the factors that contributed to our parting ways," strongly implying there were factors in addition to the joke telling that led to the firing. This also implies that without those additional, unnamed factors, the individual may not have been fired. So the catalyst that caused a situation that seemingly did not need to spiral out of control were those hidden factors, that no one is commenting much about, because no one knows what they are.
• nanoscopic 14y ago
  Unless someone has a recording of exactly what was said and can convincingly argue that what was said was anything besides harmless immature humor; I think this whole situation is utterly retarded. 2 people fired? Because 1 person made a joke about forking and said something about "big dongles". I think the immature people are the ones who think it is reasonable for people to lose their jobs over this.