11 ms·

Could the eagles have flown Frodo into Mordor? (2000)

• rmanocha 14y ago
  Hah, I've always wondered about this myself too. The visual of the eagles carrying Frodo away from Mt. Doom makes brings the inconsistency I'm even starker contrast in the final movie.
  • mhurron 14y ago
    There is the simple reason that this occurred after Sauron was no longer watching everything.
  • brentledent 14y ago
    Totally agree, it pulls me out of the movie every time.
• aristus 14y ago
  One does not simply fly into Mordor!
  • Aardwolf 14y ago
    How about... a catapult?
    • Macsenour 14y ago
      I'm sensing an Angry Birds type mobile game from that idea...
  • ctdonath 14y ago
    Well, consider the origin of that comment. Dunno if it's in the book, but from the movie: Boromir: One does not simply walk into Mordor. Its black gates are guarded by more than just orcs. There is evil there that does not sleep, and the Great Eye is ever watchful. It is a barren wasteland, riddled with fire and ash and dust, the very air you breathe is a poisonous fume. Not with ten thousand men could you do this. It is folly. High-profile entry is dismissed as impractical/unlikely/impossible. Sauron has, without doubt, considered and mitigated the obvious - including, we may presume, the obvious threats of Eagles entering for various purposes. Considering various obvious options for a few days will surely be inadequate against someone of immense power having considered defenses against assault for centuries. (Akin to my problem with people who think, with a mere few minutes of untrained thought, they can outwit teams of experienced professionals operating on near-unlimited budgets.) Just because a sold reason for "it can't happen" can't be imagined in a short time doesn't mean there isn't a reason. The defending force has capabilities beyond what is known (even to omniscient readers), the risk of failing to discern and mitigate a flaw in the plan is substantial, and the cost of failure is extreme. A flying attack (which taking The Ring to Mt Doom in effect is) is just too obvious for Sauron to have not considered and prepared against. Frodo is chosen precisely because he is as low-profile as possible: a nobody, barely 3 feet high, moving at a paltry pace, not strong enough to wield the ring. "Well, we can't think of a good reason not to, so let's do it" is not a winning strategy. If you can't qualify & quantify the risk, you don't take it. They could evaluate the risks with Frodo, and chose to engage in asymmetric warfare.
    • pilsetnieks 14y ago
      Indeed, it says exactly there in the quote: > riddled with fire and ash and dust, the very air you breathe is a poisonous fume As carbon monoxide is lighter than air, orcs and other creatures on the ground are less affected and probably more adapted to the poisonous atmosphere of Mordor; whereas the eagles flying high and accustomed to the clean air of Middle Earth would simply succumb to the prolonged exposure to CO. Of course, the destruction of Mt. Doom and subsequent paralysis of Sauron's military capabilities allow the eagles to fly in at much lower altitudes in the end.
      • ctdonath 14y ago
        Nice articulation of what I was thinking but didn't get out.
      • anonymfus 14y ago
        >As carbon monoxide is lighter than air Yes, but distance from chimney and lower atmospheric pressure on high altitude matters too: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Air_pollutant_concentrations#Correcting_concentrations_for_altitude http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Air_pollutant_concentrations#Co...
• danso 14y ago
  I wonder how much of the thematic blindspot had to do with the technology of the day? The books were reportedly started on soon after The Hobbit (1939ish), before flight was the dominant theater for war. Even though the books were not published until after WW2, when aerial warfare became the new front of war, it seems that Tolkien's main experience in war was the hideous ground fighting in WWI, and he himself rebuffed attempts to find parallels to WW2 in the LOTR series. So while the concept of aerial war was not unknown, it may not have been the dominant thinking in Tolkien's time. And so, the idea that something pivotal could be conducted by just flying in by night was just easy to overlook -- not as in, he didn't think about it at all, just that it wasn't really worth a serious mention. Yes, obviously Tolkien lived through the part of human history in which the A-Bomb was dropped (though the books were on their way to being written at that point). But he's someone with a boots-on-the-ground worldview staging his book in the fantasy world in which flight is often not naturally experienced by the protagonists.
  • gcv 14y ago
    His son Christopher served in the Royal Air Force in the early 1940s. It also seems unlikely JRRT would overlook the importance of air power as the Luftwaffe bombed the British Isles while he worked on the books during the war.
    • Jd 14y ago
      JRRT, in fact, loathed airplanes and forbade his son from flying in one. Numerous quotations on the horrors of modern technology (airplanes foremost among them) can be found in his letters to Christopher.
  • drharris 14y ago
    I'm not convinced. WWI was the debut of wartime aircraft, and he would have been well aware of the role airplanes had in shifting the power of that war. They were mainly used for reconnaissance and some light bombing, but it was widely publicized at the time.
    • danso 14y ago
• Aardwolf 14y ago
  No, because, the eagles would have been possessed by the ring.
  • frewsxcv 14y ago
    How does a giant eagle physically put on a tiny ring
    • GotAnyMegadeth 14y ago
      The ring can change size http://www.thetolkienforum.com/archive/index.php/t-5856.html http://www.thetolkienforum.com/archive/index.php/t-5856.html
    • prawks 14y ago
      The ring resizes to fit its bearer's finger.
  • danso 14y ago
    Wasn't Boromir influenced by just being around the ring?
    • jack9 14y ago
      Yes. > could even this strengthened Ring wholly take over the will of an eagle in as little as an hour? Yes. Also, because the corruption of ring possession basically sentenced you to the far lands (although it's 'offered' it's really mandatory), you might have a problem where Eagles wouldn't be accepted so....why risk corrupting an eagle and pissing that race off? You need them to fight Sauron off, at the very least.
  • danielweber 14y ago
    What if you don't tell the eagles on the mission what's up? Even if corruptible, it would take at least some time for them to figure out what's going on and which of the hobbitses they are carrying has the ring.
    • 14y ago
• ck2 14y ago
  He did say "fly you fools" :P If you want another imaginary theory, perhaps it would have been too much to ask the eagles to do, too much risk.
• hcayless 14y ago
  No. Because: http://oglaf.com/ornithology/1/ http://oglaf.com/ornithology/1/
  • someone13 14y ago
    Warning: most of this site is NSFW.
• twoodfin 14y ago
  It speaks well of Tolkien's work that such a rigorous analysis is needed to conclude (rightly, I think) that it was simply an overlooked plot hole. The most convincing evidence is indeed that discussion of the Eagles was omitted at the Council of Elrond, when numerous other potential courses of action were mooted, some much less plausible.
• martinced 14y ago
  Of course, here's the "LoTR alternate ending : Eagle version" ; ) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vh06CoC7th8 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vh06CoC7th8
  • mhurron 14y ago
    How it should have ended - LOTR http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1yqVD0swvWU http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1yqVD0swvWU I recommend basically all the 'How It Should Have Ended' videos.
• rraval 14y ago
  Alternative fan theory that I've always chosen to believe: http://www.reddit.com/r/FanTheories/comments/130it2/lord_of_the_rings_a_theory_about_the_eagle_plot/ http://www.reddit.com/r/FanTheories/comments/130it2/lord_of_...
  • woodchuck64 14y ago
    "Fly, you fools"! That explains EVERYTHING!
• bmuon 14y ago
  Oh wow! That's a lot of reasoning for making a story boring.This is far from the truly interesting analysis you can make about LotR. [spoiler alert just in case] The one I like the most is the topic of why Frodo fails. When Frodo reaches Mt Doom he finally loses himself to the power of the ring and proclaims himself its master. This is both a product of his character growth and his proximity to Sauron. In the words of Tolkien: > If you re-read all the passages dealing with Frodo and the Ring, I think you will see that not only was it quite impossible for him to surrender the Ring, in act or will, especially at its point of maximum power, but that this failure was adumbrated from far back. In the books Gollum falls into the volcano almost by chance, as if there was an invisible (rethorical) hand pushing him. In the movies Jackson just had to add the literal cliffhanger because it's Hollywood. But Gollums fall in the light of Frodo's failure expresses Tolkien's philosophy: > There exists the possibility of being placed in positions beyond one’s power. In which case (as I believe) salvation from ruin will depend on something apparently unconnected: the general sanctity (and humility and mercy) of the sacrificial person. I did not “arrange” the deliverance in this case: it again follows the logic of the story. (Gollum had had his chance of repentance, and of returning generosity with love; and had fallen off the knife-edge). You can read Tolkiens letters on the topic here: http://www.sheilaomalley.com/?p=334 http://www.sheilaomalley.com/?p=334. I think there's a published book with all his letters to readers.
  • chimpinee 14y ago
    And surely Frodo's failure implies also that the eagle plan could not have worked: it did not include Gollum
    • Deestan 14y ago
      This point is addressed in the article.
    • ImprovedSilence 14y ago
      Right, but this was never discussed in the book, so as to remove the eagle plot hole. But one could see it that way. Perhaps galdolf never brought it up, because he only had a gut feeling gollum would have a role to play, and that frodo wouldn't be able to rid himself of the ring anyway...?
• ignostic 14y ago
  I enjoyed the thought and analysis that went into this post. It might not be a satisfying answer, but the conclusion seems to be that Tolkien didn't think about eagles as a likely course of action. And if he did, he didn't bother to address it. It's funny to think that we'd never have this conversation if there had been a line like, "for Sauron can sense the great power of the eagles as they approach Mordor." The fact that fans long for "canonical" answers when there are none is a testament to great writing.
  • theanalyst 14y ago
    Certainly a very interesting analysis, whenever an author uses a deus ex machina, people are bound to come up with explanations, criticisms and the like. Here though it seems like an attempt to you know explain with an inherent internal logic of the Middle Earth. Agree totally that it is a very great piece of writing.
• adventured 14y ago
  No. The whole point of their approach was to remain undetected. Sauron would have detected the eagles presence in Mordor and converged a massive force on the location of Frodo (even 50 or 100 enemies, some nazgul etc, would have been enough to block the ability of Frodo to deposit the ring into the lava).
  • jasonshen 14y ago
    Please read the OP. he addresses this exact point.
  • Deestan 14y ago
    This point is covered in the article.
• dmauro 14y ago
  If the eagles had flown Frodo to Mordor to destroy the ring, it would NOT have been destroyed as Gollum would not be there to bring a serendipitous end to the events. It seems reasonable to imagine that Gandalf suspected more about Gollum's ultimate role than he let on, or had some idea or hunch even that things needed to play out more organically.
  • Scriptor 14y ago
    By the time he had walked to Mt. Doom, Frodo was exhausted, weak, malnourished, and had carried the burden of the ring for a long time. These all contributed to him succumbing to its power. If the eagles had flown him, none of those factors would be at play. Frodo could have still had the strength to overcome the ring's power and throw it into the fires.
    • dmauro 14y ago
      But as the author of the OP argues, Frodo may have become even better at resisting the ring as he made his way. The proximity to Sauron could have easily been the deciding factor rather than the hardships he faced which may have even strengthened him.
      • Scriptor 14y ago
        That's a good point. However, is there much textual evidence that Frodo specifically built up resistance to the ring, and not just strength of character? I guess it comes down to the following factors that might have an effect on ring-resistance: - strength of character/will - strength of body - proximity to Sauron It's probably impossible to know exactly how much each factor contributed, but still good material for fun debates.
    • nilkn 14y ago
      I'm pretty sure it's explicitly written somewhere that nobody in Middle-earth had the willpower to destroy the ring. So, basically, Frodo couldn't have done it whether he walked or flew into Mordor. My understanding has always been that Gandalf alone understood this and necessarily was hushed about it or otherwise it would have totally destroyed morale. He let others believe it was possible to willfully destroy the ring when in fact it was not. Gandalf was said to be the wisest of all of the Maiar. So if he had a feeling that Gollum would have a role to play, it was probably worthwhile allowing Gollum to play that role. I have no doubt that Gandalf knew that Frodo would falter at the end.
• bhauer 14y ago
  I can't believe no one realizes the obvious: Gandalf's "Summon Eagles" spell has a very long cooldown, many decades in length. It was still on cooldown from his use in the Hobbit. The One Ring melting resets all cooldowns, so he decided to use it to pick the hobbits up for a return ride. Obviously.
  • pyre 14y ago
    "Summon Eagles" was used 3 times in LotR.
    • talmand 14y ago
      It has three charges that take decades to replenish.
• CodeMage 14y ago
  How high are Ered Lithui? Can the eagles fly that high? Even if they can, there's still the question of whether a hobbit can survive at that altitude?
  • officemonkey 14y ago
    This is the correct answer. Middle earth eagles in this scenario are large, flying a long distance, and under load. They would not be able to survive the high altitudes.
• zeteo 14y ago
  As the article points out, it's a question of stealth versus speed, but speed is not necessarily preferable. The powers of Sauron, especially deep within his own domain, are indeed unknown. With even an hour to react, it is quite possible he would be able to conjure up something that would end up in the whole endeavor delivering the ring to him, instead of destroying it. On the other hand, the stealthiness of hobbits is well familiar to Gandalf from his previous experience with having Bilbo as a "burglar", and there are various things that the allied forces can do to further distract Sauron's attention. The power of the eagles is also something that Sauron knows and fears, and that he probably took precautions against; whereas hobbits are creatures that he most likely underestimates.
  • orourkek 14y ago
    I agree, but the author's note about the Council of Elrond is extremely convincing. If Tolkien wanted to strike this plan as a possibility, he could easily have added 1-2 lines into the Council talks where they discuss (and refute) every plan they can think of. In the end there's nothing concrete in Tolkien's work that refutes the 'eagle plan' as viable. Suggesting fan-fiction and/or 'the unknown' as proof that it's not possible isn't in the spirit of the article, per this section: > My question is not what fan-fiction we can add to the story to rule out the "eagles" plan; my question is what Tolkien has written which rules it out. That being said, your thoughts about the Hobbits' stealthiness is agreeable, but again it's more of a matter of what can be proven by excerpts from the books, not what can be guessed/assumed.
    • zeteo 14y ago
      I would venture that there were many possible alternate decisions at various points in the plot, and discussing all of them thoroughly was not necessarily a literary enhancement. The "eagles plan" itself is fan fiction, and refusing to accept more "fan fiction" in response to it is a bit disingenuous.
      • orourkek 14y ago
        It's more of a plot hole than fan-fiction. The article is an exhaustive look at provable (written) arguments that can refute the eagles as a possibile solution to the Mordor trip. The author is trying to prove that the plot hole is, in fact, a plot hole by nature of it being plausible. Using other possibilities to refute a possibility goes against the spirit of the article, where the author looks for concrete facts that would render the plan implausible. In the end, there's nothing I know of (or that the author could find) written in the books that disproves it as a possibility. It simply isn't addressed directly in the text, even where there was a prime opportunity to strike it down (Council of Elrond).
• calhoun137 14y ago
  In case you just can't get enough of the craziness, there is only one site that really matters for things like this: http://www.lotrplaza.com/forum.php http://www.lotrplaza.com/forum.php
• Tloewald 14y ago
  I have for many years speculated that Gandalf's plan could have been to get everyone to Gondor and allow Sauron to besiege the combined forces of "the west" and then fly the ring to mount doom at the last moment. If this had been Gandalf's plan from the start, and if there were some hint of this in the book, then the rescue from mount doom would not seem like such an egregious plot device. As it is, the story makes no sense unless one assumes that Gandalf simply figured all this out and said nothing (after all Frodo's disappearance after Boromir's lapse rendered the plan obsolete, and Gandalf wasn't there anyway). Again, if such a plan existed, there's no evidence Gandalf confided it to Aragorn. Indeed, a simple hurried exchange between Gandalf and Aragorn before Gandalf confronts the balrog could have foreshadowed the eagles and solved LOTR's biggest plot hole.
  • markokocic 14y ago
    "Fly, you fools!"
• Finster 14y ago
  A flight of Eagles over the Ered Lithui would be pretty dang obvious to Sauron's forces. I imagine the Nazgul with their flying beasts could do some serious damage, and I would think that would put the ring at great risk of falling into the hands of the Nazgul. Also, the Eagles didn't fly into Mordor until after the Ring had been destroyed, which means the Nazgul wouldn't have been a factor anymore. The article's conjecture that Eagles could fly undetected over the Ered Lithui grossly underestimates the effectiveness of even a moderately skilled wilderness scout, which I must assume Sauron would have many. I'm not sure if Tolkien had all this in mind, but considering that Tolkien fought in WWI, which was the first war where air power started to come into its own, I wouldn't be surprised if he took some of this into account.
• dageshi 14y ago
  Crows. http://lotr.wikia.com/wiki/Crebain http://lotr.wikia.com/wiki/Crebain If crows can be sent into the world to hunt for the ringbearer they can certainly patrol the skies around Mordor. Crows spy the eagles entering Mordor and forces are dispatched to counter them.
  • jamesmiller5 14y ago
    It's interesting that almost every point in the other replies is already explained in the article except yours. I'm surprised the crows didn't spot Frodo as he approached Mordor. It's reasonable to assume they were covering more ground away from Mordor already though.
    • dageshi 14y ago
      Dressed as orcs they probably blend in. If you're a crow patrolling the skies around Mordor, seeing a few extra (small) orc's wandering around on the ground probably isn't anything unusual or even your job to worry about. After all the entire place is ringed with natural defenses with orc's patrolling all the entries that do exist. As a Crow your job is to watch the skies and make sure nothing untoward comes in that way. It seems incredibly unlikely to me that Sauron is going to protect the borders of Mordor so well and then ignore the sky, especially when he has the perfect agents, the Crows, for the job.
    • simonh 14y ago
      By that point Sauron was convinced (among other things, by Pippin and Aragorn's contact with the Palantir) that the Ring was in Gondor.
  • NoodleIncident 14y ago
    Not just around Mordor, either, the party had to hide from them quite a few times. I think this is the answer.
  • xymostech 14y ago
    Did you read the whole article? "After Frodo and Sam entered Mordor thru Cirith Ungol, Sauron had fully ten days to contemplate the purpose of their mission into Mordor, and did not realize that their plan was to destroy the Ring until the last moment. Given that the Mouth of Sauron refers to the intruders as "spies", Sauron's most likely thought would be that the eagles are merely flying over his realm for reconnaisance purposes. Thus, even if Sauron notices the eagles, his response would not necessarily be an appropriate one to prevent the Ring from being destroyed (such as having the Nazgûl fly directly to Mt. Doom to intercept the eagles)."
• meerita 14y ago
  I still ask myself why Elrond didn't just push to the lava the human king when he refused to drop the ring. Knowing the pain, the evil of the matter, letting him go freely with the ring just made this story a bit silly.
  • stcredzero 14y ago
    If he only had a lightsaber to chop off his hand right then.
  • arcatek 14y ago
    It's called politic.
  • patrickgzill 14y ago
    It was his blood relative, for one. Two, they did not necessarily know the full power of the Ring. Third, Elves don't go around killing people without cause.
    • simonh 14y ago
      #Ahem# Aqualonde #ahem#.
      • patrickgzill 14y ago
        If you are referring to the Kin-Slaying as the Noldor left the lands of the Valar, yes, that is precisely what he would have been trying to avoid.
• btilly 14y ago
  Tolkien used the eagles as his standard deus ex machina. - Dwarves + Bilbo + Gandalf stuck in burning trees with enemies around? The eagles to the rescue! - How to wrap up the Battle of the 5 armies when all is lost? The eagles are coming! - How to rescue Gandalf from Sauruman! The eagles! - How to rescue Gandalf from the top of a mountain after an epic battle with a balrog? The eagles! - How to rescue Frodo and Sam from a volcano blowing up? You guessed it! The eagles! If you read The Silmarillion and other related works, eagles show up several more times in deus ex machinas in the Gondolin stories. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eagle_(Middle-earth) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eagle_(Middle-earth) for more on eagles in his stories, and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Eagle_and_Child http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Eagle_and_Child for a possible explanation of Tolkien's fondness for eagles.
  • Jd 14y ago
    Somewhat curiously, the "deus ex machina," usually referred to as cheap trick in contemporary commentary on literature/theatre/film, was an expected and appropriate resolution in classical theatre. One might find in Fortinbras Shakespeare's own descending god, although he presides over a funeral rather than a positive resolution (the preferred outcome of virtually all American theatre).
    • pjungwir 14y ago
      Actually Aristotle criticized using the "machina" (one of several instruments used in Greek theater) to resolve a plot difficulty: http://classics.mit.edu/Aristotle/poetics.2.2.html http://classics.mit.edu/Aristotle/poetics.2.2.html (search for "deus ex") I think Aristophanes also made fun of it, but I can't find that reference now.
      • prospero 14y ago
        You might look in The Clouds.
      • pjungwir 14y ago
        As long as I'm getting upvotes for Classics stuff on Hacker News...: The Greek name for "machina" is μηχανή. It was used for more than just solving knots in a plot. In a way it was one of the earliest "special effects." I'm not sure what Clouds reference prospero means, but when Socrates first appears, up in a basket examining the heavens, he is probably on a μηχανή. I suspect this is a deliberate allusion to sophists acting like gods. (I think it's rare to find anyone but gods on a μηχανή.) Wikipedia thinks that in Aristophanes' Thesmophoriazousae (aka Thesmo), Euripides enters a scene on a μηχανή in comic allusion to his frequently resorting to it to solve plot problems [1]. I'm not sure what scene that is, but I'd encourage anyone to read this little-read play, in which Aristophanes stages Euripides trying to infiltrate a conclave of women upset that his plays show women in a bad light (e.g. Medea). During the play Euripides has to keep acting out scenes from his own plays. If you like Euripides, it's a pretty great read. [1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deus_ex_machina http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deus_ex_machina
• Zarathust 14y ago
  Flying mounts are a plot failure almost every time they are brought up in fantastic stories. Most fantastic stories revolve around a perilous journey through harsh environments and monster lairs. This happens in a good number of movies such as Clash of the Titans where they journey to get the medusa's head, but return on flying pegasus. This also happens in Dungeons & Dragons (2000). Morale : Do not add flying mounts to your scenario, or have your characters fly all the time, otherwise it makes no sense
  • jblz 14y ago
    See also: The NeverEnding Story
    • Shish2k 14y ago
      Heck, that one has a hole in the title, let alone the plot :P
      • stcredzero 14y ago
        You just hide out in the bathroom before the movie ends, then sneak back into the theater after 15 minutes or so.
  • lutze 14y ago
    According to the actual myth, Pegasus was created when Perseus killed Medusa. Of course, you can't expect Hollywood to not somehow totally fuck up even a 3000 year old story, it's kinda what they do.
• jules 14y ago
  > Even if Sauron can cause Mt. Doom to erupt immediately, we know from the actual story that the eagles are capable of navigating into Mordor and locating and rescuing Frodo and Sam, despite the major eruption which was taking place. Even if Sauron did manage to catch the eagles in the eruption, however, could this melt the Ring? If Sauron does manage to figure out that the eagles are carrying the Ringbearer, he might opt not to cause Mt. Doom to erupt, just for this very reason. This suggests a far better option: Sauron could have cooled down mount doom, and then when the eagles arrived there would be nothing they could do to destroy the ring. Meanwhile a massive army from all over Mordor would be building up around them, and the Nazgul would be on their way to capture the ring before they could get out of Mordor. Of course this does not counter the argument that the option was not even discussed.
• pfortuny 14y ago
  The Eagles are not bound by earthlings. That is something that the dialogues between Gandalf and Thorondor sets clear. It is akin to Tom Bombadil's unwillingness to keep the ring and/or defend Middle Earth: in some sense, it is not their problem (as in NMP). So: they could have done the job but they probably would not have gone to the meetings or accept it because they are above that issue.
• xefer 14y ago
  It reminds me a bit of one of the fundamental strategy flaws inherent in the old SPI "War of the Rings" game from 1977: http://boardgamegeek.com/boardgame/2228/war-of-the-ring http://boardgamegeek.com/boardgame/2228/war-of-the-ring Basically the issue was that the person playing as Sauron's forces only had to entrench around Mt. Doom instead of wasting time going out and trying to locate the ring-bearer. The only way for the ring-bearer team to win, was to get to Mt. Doom, so Sauron knew where he was eventually going to be. It didn't matter were he happened to be at any one time.
• vingt-2 14y ago
  You forget one thing: The eagles aren't freaking vehicules, they are living beings with proud minds etc... The kind of "beyond elves" who are just as cool as they're willing to carry you out of trouble, and not into trouble, much like a friend who'd carry you home on his back after you've demonstrate your abilities to decorate a friends house with your own puke. I doubt they would just accept going into a suicidal mission for the sake of it.
• moron4hire 14y ago
  Answer: The story is not "Rose could have saved Jack", the story is "Jack dies in the end", no matter how big or small the plank needs to be.
• perlgeek 14y ago
  Also read: http://hpmor.com/chapter/64 http://hpmor.com/chapter/64 (scroll to "LORD OF THE RATIONALITY")
• deleted 14y ago
  [deleted]
• tlear 14y ago
  Another big hole is that best Ringbearer would be a Dwarf not Halfling. Dwarfs take decades to be affected and they never turn into specters and enter the spirit realm. So the best combo would be eagles carrying Gimli with the ring, which he would have no trouble throwing into the volcano. In my mind I thought that any direct approach (flying eagles) would get spotted by Sauron instantly and he could bring his power to bear on them directly
  • newnewnew 14y ago
    The strength of hobbits is their innocence, simpleness, and their lack of desire for power. Only a halfling could carry the ring. Dwarves on the other hand are known for hoarding treasures!
• nathanb 14y ago
  I think the fact that this is still a debate is an indication of how Tolkien's works have endured. A minor bug in a program that few people use will go unnoticed possibly forever, but the same minor bug in a popular program will be discussed on messageboards ad nauseum. In the same way, the fact that we're even having this debate is a testament to the staying power of these tales and this world he has created. This is why, as a Tolkien fan, I don't get offended at all by this essay. I'm just happy to hear people, in the year two thousand and thirteen, debating this matter still.
  • breadbox 14y ago
    I'm sympathetic to the overall point, but I don't think the analogy holds. Minor bugs in popular programs are noticed because programs are tools, means to some other end. Fiction is an end to itself, and so the popularity of a work can actually help to shield it against its own bugs.
• jackalope 14y ago
  One merely has to refer to RFC 1149[1] to determine why this solution is obviously unacceptable: "Avian carriers can provide high delay, low throughput, and low altitude service." "...only guarantees best effort delivery, loss of a carrier can be tolerated." "...storms can cause data loss." "Audit trails are automatically generated, and can often be found on logs and cable trays." And probably most important: "Security is not generally a problem in normal operation, but special measures must be taken (such as data encryption) when avian carriers are used in a tactical environment." The only encryption method available is for the bearer to wear the ring, and Sauron has already cracked the key. Avian carriers are only appropriate when it is feasible to have "persistent delivery retry, until the carrier drops." They're ruled out for this mission simply because there are no second chances. [1] http://www.ietf.org/rfc/rfc1149.txt http://www.ietf.org/rfc/rfc1149.txt
  • joshuahedlund 14y ago
    To be fair, it's not like the ground method had much room for second chances, either.
    • guard-of-terra 14y ago
      That's because they separated. It didn't go as planned. If they would enter Mordor as a group they had better chance perhaps? I think Mordor had some kind of anti-air defense (watch towers + crossbowmen)? Because if they didn't, it would be a persistent and major attack surface. And 40% of failure wasn't tolerable. And after they separated, Frodo had no ways to summon eagles. Moreover, maybe in the middle earth they see such occasions as a battle of strong wills, not firepower. A few heroes outwill a regular strike force. That's all what matters.
  • dbbolton 14y ago
    But is it fitting to apply the findings of trials with real world birds to the sapient Middle-earth eagles?
    • jackalope 14y ago
• jimzvz 14y ago
  Perhaps Gandalf feared the power the ring would have over the eagles. Not during the trip, as discussed in the article, but at the moment when it needs to be destroyed. If the eagle changed its mind at that point, there would be nothing they could do about it. He did not even trust himself with the ring. The ring corrupting a powerful being would be far more devastating than the corruption of a hobbit or man so perhaps he thought that the less involved such beings were in the actual destruction the better. It's a pity Tolkien isn't around because he must have thought that the reason was trivial enough not to warrant an explanation.
  • andrewguenther 14y ago
    It seems that the more powerful the being, the more likely the ring is to corrupt them. I think that the worry would not be that the ring would corrupt the eagles, but their masters, the Valar.
• undoware 14y ago
  Pen testing is for servers, not novels ;3
• undoware 14y ago
  Pen testing is for servers, not novels ;#
• shmerl 14y ago
  I think the answer is rather straightforward and is hinted in other encounters - eagles are getting involved as a last resort, to maintain the balance of good and evil. They are seen as the open messengers of the divine power, and aren't getting involved when the balance can be maintained by other means. So since there was a way to bring the ring to Mordor (even though an extremely hard one), eagles didn't interfere. I.e. it can be seen as a way to preserve the potential for choice between good and evil. Open and obvious involvement of the divine diminishes such potential, so it happens only when really necessary.
  • kqr2 14y ago
    Interesting theory, however, is there any example where the eagles come to the last minute rescue of Sauron's forces in order to maintain the balance of power?
    • shmerl 14y ago
      Eagles are seen only as messengers of good. In general that would be a question only from the perspective of dualism, but I don't think this is the case with the Tolkien's view on his world. The world appears predominantly evil, but in essence Tolkien maintains the view of the ultimate good (i.e. hidden), as an intention of Eru. So tipping the balance into the good side usually doesn't disrupt it as much. However extreme shifts still can have serious consequences. Valars getting involved in banishing Morgoth destroyed Beleriand altogether. The fall of Sauron diminished the Elven presence and so on.
• jkochis 14y ago
  News for hackers.
• javajosh 14y ago
  Clearly the answer is #11, and there are two ways to see this. First (and most evocatively, I think) is the drug metaphor: the effects of the Ring are cumulative, and they also grow stronger in proximity to Orodruin. We can model the Ring as an involuntary opioid dispenser that is certainly harming Frodo's body cumutively. But, even more sinisterly, it's dosage is increasing in proximity to Mt. Doom. Clearly, if Frodo approaches Orodruin with high velocity, his "dose" of the Ring's power will become very, very high, and he will OD. The second way to see this is a physics metaphor. In this case we model the Ring's action as a spring pushing away from Orodruin. Frodo uses his will to compress the spring. Each step he takes requires work. Frodo can only expend energy at a more-or-less fixed rate[1] (which is nicely called will power, and captures the same notion of work-over-time), so, as expected, his progress toward Mt. Doom slows considerably as the opposing force increases. (I would add that consuming nothing but lembas made the final leg of the trip even possible). So, an eagle ride would have either a) resulted in Frodo overdose, or b) forced Frodo's mind to exceed it's capacity for work, snapping it and either killing him or letting the Ring take over. [1] http://psyserv06.psy.sbg.ac.at:5916/fetch/PDF/10978569.pdf http://psyserv06.psy.sbg.ac.at:5916/fetch/PDF/10978569.pdf
  • ssmc 14y ago
    So you're implying that the strength of the Ring is a function of only distance? I would say the article more then discusses the fact that it's a function of distance AND time.
• caycep 14y ago
  could they anesthetize the ringbearer, fly him over in one of those super secret nighthawk choppers, and give him the ol heave ho into the chasm?
• craigching 14y ago
  Isn't the Third Age of Middle Earth the Age of Men? The Elves weren't intervening in a significant way, so why should the Eagles? I always figured that Gandalf chose this way (though he may not have allowed it to be viewed as him choosing it) because it really was the responsibility of Man (presumably Hobbits are thrown in with that lot) to resolve the issue.
• AznHisoka 14y ago
  What about from The Shire to the Misty Mountains? No need for both the Hobbit and Lotr trilogy.
• gambiting 14y ago
  Reddit actually had a few good points against it: 1) Flying Nazguls, first and most obvious - and Sauron would know they are coming, being unoccupied with war with Gondor. 2) By skipping Rohan and successively Gondor, Aragorn never becomes a king, kingdom of humans still most likely falls. 3) Nobody solves the Saruman threat, so in the meantime he becomes more and more powerful - probably crafts his own ring or in any case gets so much power he is unstoppable, even if The One Ring is destroyed. Films don't mention this, but in the book he escaped Orthank(and wasn't shot by Legolas like in the film) and took over Shire which he ruled for quite a while - he still had lots of magical power,even after destruction of the Ring. Remember that he was like demigod. 4) Boromir never dies, so he would probably succumb to the power of the ring eventually and took it from Frodo if this plan was not implemented very very quickly, which is unlikely. In any case, it shows how brilliant Tolkien was.
  • fr0sty 14y ago
    One nit-pick: The Peter Jackson film shows Saruman stabbed by Wormtongue before falling to his death from the top of Orthanc. Furthermore, I believe it is only included in the extended edition of The Two Towers (but I could be wrong on that point).
    • talmand 14y ago
      You are indeed correct. If memory serves, the actor (Christopher Lee) was upset, even lawsuit upset, about the cut from the theatrical version as its removal reduced his points on compensation.
    • gambiting 14y ago
      Yes, sorry, Legolas shot Wormtongue instead. Still wrong though. And yes, it's only included in the extended edition. And that vision Sam sees in Galardiela's mirror is actually true - in the book, Shire WAS burning in the end, because Saruman almost destroyed it.
      • saraid216 14y ago
        I might be misremembering, but I'm pretty sure that Legolas did not return to the Shire with the hobbits. According to Wikipedia, he was shot by "Hobbit archers" from the impromptu militia the four adventurers organized.
• tn13 14y ago
  Certain Goblins had patented the idea of dumping things from sky via birds. Obviously Gandalf could not risk getting sued.
  • cmccabe 14y ago
    Actually, that patent was held by Trolls.
• aMoniker 14y ago
  Sorry to crash the party, but this belongs on reddit. Could the eagles have flown into Morder? Sure. It's fiction.
• squozzer 14y ago
  The easiest explanation is that Tolkein had crafted a very complex work -- with a chapter on the elvish language IIRC -- that while being uber-geek, was bound to have holes. Now, for a truly interesting question, how was it that the First Foundation was completely unable to figure out that the Second Foundation's home was on Trantor -- because no one on Terminus was able to recall the phrase, "All roads lead to Trantor, and that is where all stars end."?
• JimmaDaRustla 14y ago
  Looks around him. Backs away slowly... Runs.
• pradocchia 14y ago
  The eagles rescued Frodo and Sam from Mordor after Sauron and the ring were destroyed. Thus, we may infer that up until then, the eagles could not have entered Mordor, and/or they could not have carried the ring-bearer there. Precisely why does not matter. When the ring is destroyed, the world changes, and so its constraints also change.
• stcredzero 14y ago
  > Not mentioned is my favorite objection, which is that Gwaihir, the Lord of the Eagles, is ... a being of great power, and as such should not be trusted carrying the One Ring, even indirectly. The corrupting strength of the Ring is clearly stronger as one approaches Mordor--Sam and Frodo both understand that wearing the Ring within Mordor would be catastrophic. In Tolkien's universe, power calls to power, and there is every reason to believe that the Lord of the Eagles would fall completely under the spell of the Ring as he approached Mt. Doom. Works for me. Humanoids riding on the backs of the eagles would be entirely at their mercy. If Gwaihir were tempted, he could seal the doom of the ringbearer in an instant and claim the ring for himself. The only being capable of destroying the one ring would be a humble creature. As it turns out, even Frodo wasn't humble enough, and the simplicity and purity of an insane idiot was required to get the job done, and by sheer accident at that. EDIT: Also, the reason why Samwise could carry Frodo, is because there's a very strong bond between the two, and because Sam is even humbler than Frodo. The effect of the ring seems to be inversely proportional to the military/mystical power of the being carrying it.
  • talmand 14y ago
    Easy objection, Gwaihir could simply not go.
    • stcredzero 14y ago
      We know nothing of the culture of the giant eagles. It might be dishonorable as their leader for him not to.
      • talmand 14y ago
        I think it would be far more dishonorable to put himself in a position to be seduced by the Ring.
        • stcredzero 14y ago
          Culture isn't always logical or pragmatic.
• ebbv 14y ago
  This is always the idea that people bring up but it's pretty obvious it wouldn't work. Frodo and Sam and Gollum are able to sneak in on the ground. If they were flying in on an Eagle it would be obvious and easily spotted and instead of sneaking into Mt Doom you'd be having a battle on the steps of Mt Doom with only the eagles + whomever they could carry vs. all the forces of Mordor. Anyone who brings this up as a serious flaw in LotR is being silly. The novel has flaws (and yes all 6 books are one novel) but failing to use the eagles is not one of them.
  • apurcell 14y ago
    Did you even read the article?
    • ebbv 14y ago
      I did and it was terrible. He brings up the idea that they'd be spotted and doesn't have a good response to it, he's basically just dismissive of it. "Oh well Sauron wouldn't be able to react in time." Ridiculous.
• philh 14y ago
  A few nitpicks: > it is simply a hole in the plot of an otherwise excellent book that the issue is never brought up. This is not to say that LoTR is in any way a bad book In a small way, it does say that. > When Sam carries Frodo on his back, he is surprised that Frodo is unexpectedly light: "...he had expected to share in the dreadful dragging weight of the accursed Ring. But it was not so." (III, 268). At least with regard to weight, the Ring affects the Ringbearer much more than the one carrying the Ringbearer. It is not unreasonable to speculate that this is true not only of mere weight, but also of the degree to which the Ring affects the will. Isn't Sam basically immune to the ring anyway? He's not necessarily a good canary for this test. > If the eagles had carried Frodo in, he would not have had time to build up the strength of will to destroy the ring. Frodo didn't have the strength of will to destroy the ring. A steelman objection would be "...the council would have expected that Frodo would not have time to build up...", but the council could use roughly the same reasoning as this article to dismiss it.
  • saraid216 14y ago
    > Isn't Sam basically immune to the ring anyway? He's not necessarily a good canary for this test. Nope. When he put the Ring on, it gave him what he desired: being a mighty hero with a sharp sword and booming voice. Frodo bent under the burden because he had to fight his desire constantly. It wasn't the Ring poisoning him, not directly. It was his refusal of putting the Ring on that did.
• deleted 14y ago
  [deleted]
• xmlblog 14y ago
  Actually, I think the answer is to be found in the Silmarillion. All of the events in LOTR unfold according the music of the Ainur. Events unfolded as they did, because they could not have unfolded any other way. See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ainulindal%C3%AB http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ainulindal%C3%AB
• Eliezer 14y ago
  Also, put the Ring on a lock to which Sam has the key.
• snowwrestler 14y ago
  There are a ton of plot holes in the LOTR. Why did Aragorn run off in the dark at Weathertop, when everyone knew they would be besieged? Why does the ring not affect Tom Bombadil? Why does everyone put up with Wormtongue in Rohan? Why don't the orcs in Mordor immediately recognize Frodo and Sam as non-orcs? Why does it matter that Eowyn is a woman not a man? How convenient is it that Boromir showed up just in time for the Council? How convenient is it that Gollum falls over the cliff edge while dancing around? Etc. My point is that the value of LOTR is not the plot. It's the themes and characters, which the plot exists (with all its holes) to serve.
  • jff 14y ago
    Some of these things are there because they exist in the kind of stories that inspired Tolkien in the first place. Characters appear at just the right time by chance or fate, "can't be killed by man" is taken literally, a simple disguise fools everyone. This isn't set in our world. It's closer to the world of Beowulf, the Eddas, or the Grimm brothers.
    • snowwrestler 14y ago
      Thanks, that is a better way of putting it than what I wrote. It's a mythic tale of a quest, so asking why the Eagles didn't shortcut the quest is kind of missing the point.
  • snogglethorpe 14y ago
    > There are a ton of plot holes in the LOTR. .... Why does the ring not affect Tom Bombadil Wait, why is that a plot-hole...? Tom Bombadil is explicitly "different" than everything else, outside the normal world, time, moving along a different path, etc. The ring's lack of power over him was shown to help illustrate that. [I thought Tom Bombadil was one of the most interesting characters in LotR... a shame he shows up so little. Although maybe if he played a bigger part, it would have diminished the sense of something greater and more mysterious, briefly glimpsed, which I guess is much of his appeal...]
• jzf 14y ago
  Philadelphia Eagles? Maybe when they had Cunningham...
• jjp9999 14y ago
  We're ruling out that the ring effects people around it. I don't think we were ever told whether the eagles could resist its evil. Also, Frodo had to leave the company before this plan would have worked, since he started to realize the ring was corrupting the people around him.
  • jjp9999 14y ago
    Also, How It Should Have Ended already beat OP to this concept - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1yqVD0swvWU http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1yqVD0swvWU
• edmond_dantes 14y ago
  Simple answer: The eagles refused to fly towards Mordor while it was emanating Sauron's unnatural aura.
• GhotiFish 14y ago
  12. "Sauron is a powerful Maia, and it's reasonable to assume that he has powers which we aren't told about which he could use against the eagles." To me, things like this discount the use of the term "plot hole". It is unreasonable of us to expect that every single exception or problem must be codified and discounted by the author the moment any plot device is brought up. Yes some discussion is worthy. All things in moderation as they say, but the less the better. In my opinion, there is no plot hole if there is no contradiction in terms the story has presented. If it is possible for the author to come back and add in a line about why "such and such" wouldn't work, without introducing a contradiction somewhere else in the story, then it is not a plot hole.
• hakaaaaak 14y ago
  Were they African or European eagles?
• dietlbomb 14y ago
  8. "The Valar would prohibit the eagles from such a direct intervention against Sauron." I am surprised that this argument comes up as often as it does, because I am aware of no textual support for this idea. The eagles quite frequently involve themselves in the fight against Sauron (or against evil in general): They rescue Bilbo, Thorin, & Co. from the orcs and wolves. They participate in the Battle of Five Armies. They rescue Gandalf from Orthanc. They rescue Gandalf again from Zirak-Zigil. They directly attack the flying Nazgûl during the last battle. They fly into Mordor to rescue Frodo and Sam. Given all this heavy involvement, it would be extremely surprising if the Valar specifically prohibited the eagles from flying the Ringbearer into Mordor. Tolkien nowhere mentions such a prohibition. The only support I can see for this argument is very indirect: namely, that the eagles are said to be the representatives of Manwë, and in the Third Age, Manwë is maintaining a policy of the Valar not intervening directly in the affairs of Middle-Earth. But the eagles do often intervene in the struggles of Middle-Earth, and there's no indication that they were under some restriction in this case. If the eagles were prohibited from being involved directly in the struggle against Sauron, we might expect that they would have withdrawn to Valinor long ago rather than remain in Middle-Earth. This is the actual reason, but there is more evidence to support it than the OP gives, but like most things Tolkien, you need to read outside the usual narrative to find it. The best explanation for this is how the rules of Manwe govern the wizards, particularly Gandalf: Emissaries they were from Lords of the West, the Valar, who still took counsel for the governance of Middle-earth, and when the shadow of Sauron began first to stir again took this means of resisting him. For with the consent of Eru they sent members of their own high order, but clad in bodies of as of Men, real and not feigned, but subject to the fears and pains and weariness of earth, able to hunger and thirst and be slain; though because of their noble spirits they did not die, and aged only by the cares and labours of many long years. And this the Valar did, desiring to amend the errors of old, especially that they had attempted to guard and seclude the Eldar by their own might and glory fully revealed; whereas now their emissaries were forbidden to reveal themselves in forms of majesty, or to seek to rule the wills of Men and Elves by open display of power, but coming in shapes weak and humble were bidden to advise and persuade Men and Elves to good, and to seek to unite in love and understanding all those whom Sauron, should he come again, would endeavour to dominate and corrupt. Unfinished Tales, Ballantine paperback, p. 406. The Valar are allowed to send the the wizards to Middle Earth with the consent of Eru, with constraints on what the wizards are allowed to do. This implies that Eru, the overarching God of Tolkien's universe, has a plan for events in Middle Earth, and that he doesn't want the higher powers (the Valar) to interfere directly. The eagles are also servants of the Valar, and are not permitted to directly interfere with events. Discounting the events of The Hobbit, the eagles only show up to help when everyone has already made the right decision informed by faith and hope. When the eagle finds Gandalf on Zirak-Zigil, he had just sacrificed himself to defeat the balrog and he had been returned to Middle Earth (clear Deus ex Machina there too). When they attack the Nazgul in the last battle, it was after Aragorn and the other leaders had committed their armies to a "hopeless" last stand. When they flew into Mordor to rescue Frodo and Sam, it was after they had finished the quest. There are multiple times where the intervention of Eru in the events of Middle Earth are implied. Gandalf hints that Bilbo was meant to find the ring. Gollum steals the ring and falls into the fire. A wind out of the West blows away the smoke cloud that appears when Barad-Dur crumbles (and the smaller smoke cloud that appears when Saruman is killed). So the prohibition against direct Valar action in Middle Earth is no small thing. Would it have been nice if the eagles were discussed more in the book? Probably, but it was pretty long already. If you are interested in this sort of stuff, I recommend listening to the Tolkien Professor podcast.