6 ms·

>Not on sale: computer generated t shirt advocating rape. Assuming this is a computer generated t-shirt as you and OP suggest, how can anyone be certain that t

>Not on sale: computer generated t shirt advocating rape. Assuming this is a computer generated t-shirt as you and OP suggest, how can anyone be certain that the shirt refers to rape as in forced intercourse? More often than not when I hear someone use the word rape, they are not talking about forced intercourse. Rather they are using the word rape as a synonym for "debellatio", having nothing to do with a sex. Examples: 1. I just took my final exam and I raped it. 2. Did you see the superbowl? SF was getting raped until the second half, then they made it a good game. If the rape t-shirt was not made by a human, but an algorithm, can anyone say for certain that the algorithm intended to mean rape as in forced intercourse or rape as in debellatio or any other definition whether it comes from urbandictionary or Websters?

beering 14y ago
a) Does it matter what the "intent" was, if the result is very offensive and advocates rape? Edit: Intent matters, but knowing the computer meant something else doesn't change the meaning of this item for a lot of people. b) Your examples are offensive, and I don't appreciate people who carelessly use the word "rape" like that. You might think it's OK in some twisted way, but it's probably worse than calling random things "gay" even though they have nothing to do with homosexuality.
- will_brown 14y ago
  >You might think it's OK in some twisted way, but it's probably worse than calling random things "gay" even though they have nothing to do with homosexuality. I never said it was OK - I simply asked how does anyone know which definition an algorithm selected and does it matter? I thought you gave an insightful answer noting intent matters, but in this case you feel it does not because either use is offensive. I did give the examples of how I have heard rape used in non-sexual contexts, and I am sorry if you were offended - but more importantly it is you who personally gets offensive by saying I am OK with that usage in some "twisted way". Did I ever say I was OK with it? No. In fact I go out of my way to explain that is how I have heard it used, but that is not enough you go on to say my being OK with using the word rape in a non-sexual context (which I don't) is worse than some form of homophobia where one calls things "gay". Please do not make up behvior I do NOT engage in and then compare it to other forms of behavior I do not engage in. Finally, you may have unknowingly brought up real insight to who you are, because even if I or others were to call something "gay" who is not to say it is being done using the traditional definition of gay meaning "happy or joyous"? Are you offended the same way when people use "gay" to describe something as "happy or joyous" having nothing to do with homosexuality, the same way you get offended when others use "rape" in a non-sexual context?
  - mlent 14y ago
    Rape does not have a non-sexual context.
    - samuellevy 14y ago
      Except for when it's a plant (canola, a.k.a. Rape/Rape-seed). I get your point, though, but it was clearly generated by a computer, as are all the other shirts in that companies "KEEP CALM AND ______ ON" line. Most of them don't make any sense whatsoever. The computer doesn't "mean" any particular use of the word, because it's a computer, and couldn't tell the contextual difference between "rape" and "yell" or "run". The fault here is a poorly (or not at all) checked pool of words, and no human interaction between "generate slogan" and "submit to Amazon"
    - will_brown 14y ago
      http://www.thefreedictionary.com/_/dict.aspx?word=raping http://www.thefreedictionary.com/_/dict.aspx?word=raping The dictionary gives 3 examples of rape in a non-sexual context. Again, know that I am not saying the t-shirt was not offensive or in bad taste generally, I certainly would never buy it or wear it if given to me (no one I know would give it to me). At the same time, in a hypothetical where an automated Google car hit someone, would it make sense to yell and the Google car and say watch where you are going? See in this exagerated example, it becomes clear I am soliciting insight to human interaction to an automated system that did not have intent.
    - angersock 14y ago
      I suspect that the English "rape" has its roots in the Latin "rapio", which is very much not about sexual conduct--though the meaning clearly could be mutated over time (as it seems to have been) to mean forced intercourse. http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/rapio http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/rapio EDIT: For a further stack trace, consider "enrapture", derived from "rapture", itself derived from the future form of "rapio": http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/rapture http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/rapture . And people say that a classical education and liberal arts is useless. :)
      - 14y ago
- monochromatic 14y ago
  I'm not sure intent even does matter, when we're talking about something a computer wrote.
- jaynos 14y ago
  The Fantasticks ran off-broadway for over 40 years with a song about rape (using the definition that means "abduction, kidnapping"): http://www.allmusicals.com/lyrics/fantasticksthe/itdependsonwhatyoupay.htm http://www.allmusicals.com/lyrics/fantasticksthe/itdependson... I saw the show in 2001 and still remember how hard it was to not cringe at that word even though the context was clearly different and the show was comedy. I am not saying that a shirt advocating more kidnapping would be appropriate, but thought you might appreciate the alternate use of the word from a historical perspective.
jamespo 14y ago
I would suggest most people would disagree with your primary definition which seems to have been taken from Urban Dictionary; your argument is rather specious.
- will_brown 14y ago
  I did not say it was my primary definition, I simply said when I hear the word spoken (I did not say when I use it), more often than not, it is being in a non-sexual context. My primary definition would be that of any other human, but that is the point the shirt was not created by a human it could have picked the word based on another definition, such as Urban Dictionary like you mention. >your argument is rather specious. What arguement? I asked a question in context of the algoritm picking the word/phrase. For those offended, would it matter the intent/definition of the word? I did not make an arguement on behalf of any position. As far as Urban dictionary, I do not think you are likely to find the word "deballatio" in the urban dictionary. My examples aside (which again are real life examples how I have heard it used, not how I have used it), I defined rape in a non-sexual context as a "deballtio", which admittedly is not a real definition and some could argue "debellatio" is as offensive if not more so than rape.
  - trhtrsh 14y ago
    You seriously quoted a word three times, spelling it differently each time?
    - will_brown 14y ago
      +1 I commented from my blackberry (fat fingers). Guess I got lucky and landed it the 3rd time: "debellatio".
mlent 14y ago
If either of those phrases was printed on a t-shirt, it would be just as offensive. Your examples still propagate rape culture by trivializing victims of rape.
ams6110 14y ago
Ask Bobby Knight how well that line of reasoning works in the real world.
- will_brown 14y ago
  The difference is Bobby Knight is a human, what I am getting at is people are offended by an algorithm that has no intent, and for all anyone knows could have picked the word based on another definition that others are over looking. I just asked the question (I was not advocating or taking a position)and it is clear from the responses most people want to be the first to cast a stone at the algorithm, irrespective of the intent or definition used, that is fine, I am not here to judge.
  - jlgreco 14y ago
    You know, reading more of the comments here and on the blog, I think Pete Ashton may be right in calling out technological illiteracy. Some people seem to be unable to make a distinction between something said with no ill intent by a human and something said with no ill intent by an algorithm. It really seems to me that this is the result of a failure to properly internalize the full implications of what algorithms are capable of, how they work... really just what they are. You may as well be offended by what a toddler says. It is very very easy for a toddler or an algorithm to say something that could, in other contexts, be offensive. In the correct context however, primarily the realization that there is no intent present, you would have to not understand what a toddler is to be offended by what a toddler says.
hnriot 14y ago
You're living in a dream world! Rape means forced intercourse. Nobody says "sf was getting raped until the second half" - nobody except a complete moron with the sensitivity of a very insensitive thing. Among my friends, someone saying those example sentences would make the others there cringe and feel embarrassed by the person talking like that.
- adventured 14y ago
  I find it embarrassing when someone uses argument from intimidation multiple times in such a small amount of text.
- fennecfoxen 14y ago
  This post will examine the use of a term 'raped' to mean 'suffer significant setbacks in a sports game' on Twitter, specifically regarding the Superbowl. It will make no moral judgement for or against the use of the term. https://twitter.com/panther_mike/status/298244459370528770 https://twitter.com/panther_mike/status/298244459370528770 "SF must have requested the lights to be off while they are getting raped. #SuperBowl" https://twitter.com/SprtsHumor/status/298249906550886400 https://twitter.com/SprtsHumor/status/298249906550886400 "Niners were shy about getting butt raped with the lights on." https://twitter.com/harkamalsingh/statuses/298243230112301060 https://twitter.com/harkamalsingh/statuses/29824323011230106... "OMFG! 49ers getting butt raped! #superbowl" https://twitter.com/albert2036/status/293092361087639553 https://twitter.com/albert2036/status/293092361087639553 "@GeneBean29 nope ravens are gunna get raped....they should've lost the last game it was all luck. :P" https://twitter.com/FMirmontes/status/298232317242130432 https://twitter.com/FMirmontes/status/298232317242130432 "Dang #49ers getting raped hella hard haha funny ass #SuperBowl game" https://twitter.com/paraffinn/status/298251727478603776 https://twitter.com/paraffinn/status/298251727478603776 "49ers getting raped #superbowl" https://twitter.com/kkaykkay/status/298244379393548288 https://twitter.com/kkaykkay/status/298244379393548288 "@BankyW u watching this too...hahaha...49ers are getting raped...somebody help!!!" I could look for some more, and easily find them, but you get the picture. Conclusion: The term 'raped' is widely used to mean 'suffer significant setbacks or defeat in a sports match'. I will hereby question who is living in a fantasy world where "nobody says" these things. I will ALSO note the irony of calling all these people out for being insensitive while using the term "retarded", which may be offensive to people whose mental development is actually in fact delayed, or those who would identify themselves as differently-mentally-able. I will make suggestions: Limit yourself in the future to calling the comments using a "rape" metaphor for sports crude and offensive, and leave it at that. Avoid undue disparagement of people who disagree with your values - you can leave it at disparaging their values. Avoid attempts to use peer pressure to assert cultural norms, it doesn't work outside your cultural peer group, you may be in the minority, and isn't really a compelling argument anyway. Kthx.
CodeMage 14y ago
That's disingenuous. The algorithm selects words, not meanings.
Steuard 14y ago
The usage you cite here is indeed common, and the fact that it is common is a terrible thing. I'm not going to repeat a dozen other posts in this thread, but this usage does a great deal to normalize rape in our culture: it makes actual rape seem a routine part of life. Regardless of the intent of the speaker, this usage encourages actual rapists to believe that their peers don't see rape as a big deal, which in turn makes them more likely to rape. (I'm not an expert on this stuff so I don't have a whole list of links at hand to back up these statements, but pretty much every actual expert that I've seen writing about this topic seems to agree. I've given a couple of links for formal support in earlier posts here.)
- will_brown 14y ago
  >The usage you cite here is indeed common, and the fact that it is common is a terrible thing. +1 because I agree, and I know you disagreed with me on another comment, but I want to make clear I personally do not use this word in this context. > Regardless of the intent of the speaker, this usage encourages actual rapists to believe that their peers don't see rape as a big deal, which in turn makes them more likely to rape. (I'm not an expert on this stuff so I don't have a whole list of links at hand to back up these statements, but pretty much every actual expert that I've seen writing about this topic seems to agree. I've given a couple of links for formal support in earlier posts here.) I will obviously defer to the experts; however, to be honest it is hard to apply that logic to a real life example I have been known to use: Did you see the superbowl? SF was getting KILLED until the second half, then they made it a good game. I have used kill and killed in the sports context, so according to the experts logic my usage of kill/killed does a great to normalize killing in our culture, and it makes actual killing seem a routine part of life. I find it harder to believe that by using kill/killed in this context I may have encouraged my peers to not see killing as a big deal, which in turn makes them more likely to kill.
  - Steuard 14y ago
    "I want to make clear I personally do not use this word in this context." Oh, good! :) As for your later point, again, I'm not an expert on this either, but I'd guess that context is essential for these things. I've lived my entire life in communities where lethal force was essentially never used, and just from the fact that you participate in this forum I think it's pretty likely that the same is true for you. In that context, I don't think there's an existing cultural norm that killing is routine for your comment to reinforce. However, I might guess that the same would not have been true in Northern Ireland at many points in the past century, or in some American inner city neighborhoods today (or in a foxhole in the Vietnam war, for that matter). In those contexts, I would worry a lot more that language like what you describe would indeed reinforce the broad existing societal expectation of violence, and that it would contribute a little bit toward encouraging those around you to devalue human life. In fact, my impression is that it's only been quite recently in the history of civilization that significant fractions of humanity have been lucky enough to grow up without such norms; heck, dueling was still an accepted (or even expected) way of settling grudges in the early days of US independence (e.g. Burr and Hamilton). It's entirely possible that the usage you describe is a linguistic holdover from that earlier era. Women, meanwhile, have been stuck living out their lives in rape-Belfast more or less forever. It's only very recently that that's started to change, anywhere.

beering 14y ago

a) Does it matter what the "intent" was, if the result is very offensive and advocates rape? Edit: Intent matters, but knowing the computer meant something else doesn't change the meaning of this item for a lot of people. b) Your examples are offensive, and I don't appreciate people who carelessly use the word "rape" like that. You might think it's OK in some twisted way, but it's probably worse than calling random things "gay" even though they have nothing to do with homosexuality.

will_brown 14y ago
>You might think it's OK in some twisted way, but it's probably worse than calling random things "gay" even though they have nothing to do with homosexuality. I never said it was OK - I simply asked how does anyone know which definition an algorithm selected and does it matter? I thought you gave an insightful answer noting intent matters, but in this case you feel it does not because either use is offensive. I did give the examples of how I have heard rape used in non-sexual contexts, and I am sorry if you were offended - but more importantly it is you who personally gets offensive by saying I am OK with that usage in some "twisted way". Did I ever say I was OK with it? No. In fact I go out of my way to explain that is how I have heard it used, but that is not enough you go on to say my being OK with using the word rape in a non-sexual context (which I don't) is worse than some form of homophobia where one calls things "gay". Please do not make up behvior I do NOT engage in and then compare it to other forms of behavior I do not engage in. Finally, you may have unknowingly brought up real insight to who you are, because even if I or others were to call something "gay" who is not to say it is being done using the traditional definition of gay meaning "happy or joyous"? Are you offended the same way when people use "gay" to describe something as "happy or joyous" having nothing to do with homosexuality, the same way you get offended when others use "rape" in a non-sexual context?
- mlent 14y ago
  Rape does not have a non-sexual context.
  - samuellevy 14y ago
    Except for when it's a plant (canola, a.k.a. Rape/Rape-seed). I get your point, though, but it was clearly generated by a computer, as are all the other shirts in that companies "KEEP CALM AND ______ ON" line. Most of them don't make any sense whatsoever. The computer doesn't "mean" any particular use of the word, because it's a computer, and couldn't tell the contextual difference between "rape" and "yell" or "run". The fault here is a poorly (or not at all) checked pool of words, and no human interaction between "generate slogan" and "submit to Amazon"
  - will_brown 14y ago
    http://www.thefreedictionary.com/_/dict.aspx?word=raping http://www.thefreedictionary.com/_/dict.aspx?word=raping The dictionary gives 3 examples of rape in a non-sexual context. Again, know that I am not saying the t-shirt was not offensive or in bad taste generally, I certainly would never buy it or wear it if given to me (no one I know would give it to me). At the same time, in a hypothetical where an automated Google car hit someone, would it make sense to yell and the Google car and say watch where you are going? See in this exagerated example, it becomes clear I am soliciting insight to human interaction to an automated system that did not have intent.
  - angersock 14y ago
    I suspect that the English "rape" has its roots in the Latin "rapio", which is very much not about sexual conduct--though the meaning clearly could be mutated over time (as it seems to have been) to mean forced intercourse. http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/rapio http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/rapio EDIT: For a further stack trace, consider "enrapture", derived from "rapture", itself derived from the future form of "rapio": http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/rapture http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/rapture . And people say that a classical education and liberal arts is useless. :)
    - 14y ago
monochromatic 14y ago
I'm not sure intent even does matter, when we're talking about something a computer wrote.
jaynos 14y ago
The Fantasticks ran off-broadway for over 40 years with a song about rape (using the definition that means "abduction, kidnapping"): http://www.allmusicals.com/lyrics/fantasticksthe/itdependsonwhatyoupay.htm http://www.allmusicals.com/lyrics/fantasticksthe/itdependson... I saw the show in 2001 and still remember how hard it was to not cringe at that word even though the context was clearly different and the show was comedy. I am not saying that a shirt advocating more kidnapping would be appropriate, but thought you might appreciate the alternate use of the word from a historical perspective.

jamespo 14y ago

I would suggest most people would disagree with your primary definition which seems to have been taken from Urban Dictionary; your argument is rather specious.

will_brown 14y ago
I did not say it was my primary definition, I simply said when I hear the word spoken (I did not say when I use it), more often than not, it is being in a non-sexual context. My primary definition would be that of any other human, but that is the point the shirt was not created by a human it could have picked the word based on another definition, such as Urban Dictionary like you mention. >your argument is rather specious. What arguement? I asked a question in context of the algoritm picking the word/phrase. For those offended, would it matter the intent/definition of the word? I did not make an arguement on behalf of any position. As far as Urban dictionary, I do not think you are likely to find the word "deballatio" in the urban dictionary. My examples aside (which again are real life examples how I have heard it used, not how I have used it), I defined rape in a non-sexual context as a "deballtio", which admittedly is not a real definition and some could argue "debellatio" is as offensive if not more so than rape.
- trhtrsh 14y ago
  You seriously quoted a word three times, spelling it differently each time?
  - will_brown 14y ago
    +1 I commented from my blackberry (fat fingers). Guess I got lucky and landed it the 3rd time: "debellatio".

mlent 14y ago

If either of those phrases was printed on a t-shirt, it would be just as offensive. Your examples still propagate rape culture by trivializing victims of rape.

ams6110 14y ago

Ask Bobby Knight how well that line of reasoning works in the real world.

will_brown 14y ago
The difference is Bobby Knight is a human, what I am getting at is people are offended by an algorithm that has no intent, and for all anyone knows could have picked the word based on another definition that others are over looking. I just asked the question (I was not advocating or taking a position)and it is clear from the responses most people want to be the first to cast a stone at the algorithm, irrespective of the intent or definition used, that is fine, I am not here to judge.
- jlgreco 14y ago
  You know, reading more of the comments here and on the blog, I think Pete Ashton may be right in calling out technological illiteracy. Some people seem to be unable to make a distinction between something said with no ill intent by a human and something said with no ill intent by an algorithm. It really seems to me that this is the result of a failure to properly internalize the full implications of what algorithms are capable of, how they work... really just what they are. You may as well be offended by what a toddler says. It is very very easy for a toddler or an algorithm to say something that could, in other contexts, be offensive. In the correct context however, primarily the realization that there is no intent present, you would have to not understand what a toddler is to be offended by what a toddler says.

hnriot 14y ago

You're living in a dream world! Rape means forced intercourse. Nobody says "sf was getting raped until the second half" - nobody except a complete moron with the sensitivity of a very insensitive thing. Among my friends, someone saying those example sentences would make the others there cringe and feel embarrassed by the person talking like that.

adventured 14y ago
I find it embarrassing when someone uses argument from intimidation multiple times in such a small amount of text.
fennecfoxen 14y ago
This post will examine the use of a term 'raped' to mean 'suffer significant setbacks in a sports game' on Twitter, specifically regarding the Superbowl. It will make no moral judgement for or against the use of the term. https://twitter.com/panther_mike/status/298244459370528770 https://twitter.com/panther_mike/status/298244459370528770 "SF must have requested the lights to be off while they are getting raped. #SuperBowl" https://twitter.com/SprtsHumor/status/298249906550886400 https://twitter.com/SprtsHumor/status/298249906550886400 "Niners were shy about getting butt raped with the lights on." https://twitter.com/harkamalsingh/statuses/298243230112301060 https://twitter.com/harkamalsingh/statuses/29824323011230106... "OMFG! 49ers getting butt raped! #superbowl" https://twitter.com/albert2036/status/293092361087639553 https://twitter.com/albert2036/status/293092361087639553 "@GeneBean29 nope ravens are gunna get raped....they should've lost the last game it was all luck. :P" https://twitter.com/FMirmontes/status/298232317242130432 https://twitter.com/FMirmontes/status/298232317242130432 "Dang #49ers getting raped hella hard haha funny ass #SuperBowl game" https://twitter.com/paraffinn/status/298251727478603776 https://twitter.com/paraffinn/status/298251727478603776 "49ers getting raped #superbowl" https://twitter.com/kkaykkay/status/298244379393548288 https://twitter.com/kkaykkay/status/298244379393548288 "@BankyW u watching this too...hahaha...49ers are getting raped...somebody help!!!" I could look for some more, and easily find them, but you get the picture. Conclusion: The term 'raped' is widely used to mean 'suffer significant setbacks or defeat in a sports match'. I will hereby question who is living in a fantasy world where "nobody says" these things. I will ALSO note the irony of calling all these people out for being insensitive while using the term "retarded", which may be offensive to people whose mental development is actually in fact delayed, or those who would identify themselves as differently-mentally-able. I will make suggestions: Limit yourself in the future to calling the comments using a "rape" metaphor for sports crude and offensive, and leave it at that. Avoid undue disparagement of people who disagree with your values - you can leave it at disparaging their values. Avoid attempts to use peer pressure to assert cultural norms, it doesn't work outside your cultural peer group, you may be in the minority, and isn't really a compelling argument anyway. Kthx.

CodeMage 14y ago

That's disingenuous. The algorithm selects words, not meanings.

Steuard 14y ago

The usage you cite here is indeed common, and the fact that it is common is a terrible thing. I'm not going to repeat a dozen other posts in this thread, but this usage does a great deal to normalize rape in our culture: it makes actual rape seem a routine part of life. Regardless of the intent of the speaker, this usage encourages actual rapists to believe that their peers don't see rape as a big deal, which in turn makes them more likely to rape. (I'm not an expert on this stuff so I don't have a whole list of links at hand to back up these statements, but pretty much every actual expert that I've seen writing about this topic seems to agree. I've given a couple of links for formal support in earlier posts here.)

will_brown 14y ago
>The usage you cite here is indeed common, and the fact that it is common is a terrible thing. +1 because I agree, and I know you disagreed with me on another comment, but I want to make clear I personally do not use this word in this context. > Regardless of the intent of the speaker, this usage encourages actual rapists to believe that their peers don't see rape as a big deal, which in turn makes them more likely to rape. (I'm not an expert on this stuff so I don't have a whole list of links at hand to back up these statements, but pretty much every actual expert that I've seen writing about this topic seems to agree. I've given a couple of links for formal support in earlier posts here.) I will obviously defer to the experts; however, to be honest it is hard to apply that logic to a real life example I have been known to use: Did you see the superbowl? SF was getting KILLED until the second half, then they made it a good game. I have used kill and killed in the sports context, so according to the experts logic my usage of kill/killed does a great to normalize killing in our culture, and it makes actual killing seem a routine part of life. I find it harder to believe that by using kill/killed in this context I may have encouraged my peers to not see killing as a big deal, which in turn makes them more likely to kill.
- Steuard 14y ago
  "I want to make clear I personally do not use this word in this context." Oh, good! :) As for your later point, again, I'm not an expert on this either, but I'd guess that context is essential for these things. I've lived my entire life in communities where lethal force was essentially never used, and just from the fact that you participate in this forum I think it's pretty likely that the same is true for you. In that context, I don't think there's an existing cultural norm that killing is routine for your comment to reinforce. However, I might guess that the same would not have been true in Northern Ireland at many points in the past century, or in some American inner city neighborhoods today (or in a foxhole in the Vietnam war, for that matter). In those contexts, I would worry a lot more that language like what you describe would indeed reinforce the broad existing societal expectation of violence, and that it would contribute a little bit toward encouraging those around you to devalue human life. In fact, my impression is that it's only been quite recently in the history of civilization that significant fractions of humanity have been lucky enough to grow up without such norms; heck, dueling was still an accepted (or even expected) way of settling grudges in the early days of US independence (e.g. Burr and Hamilton). It's entirely possible that the usage you describe is a linguistic holdover from that earlier era. Women, meanwhile, have been stuck living out their lives in rape-Belfast more or less forever. It's only very recently that that's started to change, anywhere.