15 ms·

The MS Surface Pro

440 points by kposehn 14y ago

iomike 14y ago
Microsoft shilling
- djt 14y ago
  more like smart marketing on their behalf. For my use cases I think it would be terrible but sounds like a winner for him.
- Alterlife 14y ago
  Why would you say that? He likes it, and he's given good reasons for why he does. His wife likes it, I can understand the reasons why she does as well. You disagree with him, but you've given no reasons for it... Mr. Anti Microsoft drone. -- As a developer, I still wouldn't buy the device. Partly because it's on the upper end of my budget, but for the most part because of the downsides: heat, lack of serviceability, and most of all I think the compromise that has to be made ie: not being able to use the keyboard while on the lap, is a deal killer. There are cheaper portable machines which are better for developers.
  - lnanek2 14y ago
    Gaming community has a lot less MS hate than other communities as well. Since you have to play Halo et. all if you want to have covered all the famous works, and they had the first good online community, etc..
  - taude 14y ago
    Not using keyboard on lap is the biggest deal breaker for me, too. Waiting to see how some of these Asus clam-shell convertibles turn out, like that Asus Vivo Tab: http://www.asus.com/vivo/en/vivotab.htm http://www.asus.com/vivo/en/vivotab.htm (But want something more spec'd like the Surface Pro)
- nemo1618 14y ago
  /g/ please go
- scholia 14y ago
  Don't be a dick.
- TWAndrews 14y ago
  If you were the least bit familiar with Penny Arcade, you'd know how ridiculous that sounds.
10char 14y ago
I'm still a bit disappointed that Apple has yet to add a Wacom layer to their devices. It's so unquestionably better at doing writing, sketching, and note-taking than crudely smudging your fingers. iPads still fail pretty hard at being useful during math class. I had an old-style swivel tablet (Windows Vista?), and it was a fantastic device to take notes on, invaluable for classwork. OneNote + pen-input really seemed like the future of school computing...but the prices on those machines never came down and the iPad et al took them by storm shortly thereafter.
- jrajav 14y ago
  > I had an old-style swivel tablet (Windows Vista?), and it was a fantastic device to take notes on, invaluable for classwork. OneNote + pen-input really seemed like the future of school computing...but the prices on those machines never came down and the iPad et al took them by storm shortly thereafter. I had one of these too, an older IBM Thinkpad. The note-taking ability was definitely invaluable. If I were taking college over again right now I would seriously consider a Surface over a Macbook for this reason alone.
- shuzchen 14y ago
  Yeah, I had a tablet computer back before Apple redefined what tablet meant. It was a Fujitsu machine and OneNote with a wacom pen was definitely a really nice way to take notes in class. However, while I am excited by the machines that are coming out nowadays (surface pro, thinkpad helix to name a few) that will give me both the tablet and laptop experience, I'm dismayed that they're going the way of apple in terms of not giving us access to replace the battery/switch out drives/upgrade RAM on our own. If someone put a door on the backside of a thinkpad helix, I'd buy it for sure.
  - vxNsr 14y ago
    Yeah, the issue is space and weight, apple showed that by removing customizability they can significantly reduce the size and weight as well as provide better battery life and nicer looking designs, and when it comes to tablets most people opt for lighter and smaller over replaceable parts.
gfunk911 14y ago
Interesting. We now have an actual niche/use case where the Surface Pro could be a compelling leader, and not just "totally decent." Artists. Also, doesn't an apple-style commercial where somebody gets an email with a word doc attached, edits it, and emails it back with changes while on the train or something seem obvious....
- majormajor 14y ago
  Ever since it was first announced I thought it would be an ideal on-the-go photo management/editing program (I could easily get by in Lightroom without a keyboard, and the pen would be tons of fun) so it's cool to see that they hit that mark for that. I'm going to hold off until a cooler/longer battery life revision 2, though. Or possibly a ThinkPad Helix or something, but that's still not really a loss for MS. MS's schizophrenia (or whatever) strikes again on that second one, though: the cheap model comes with Office, the full-featured one doesn't. I guess they're trying to push everyone to subscriptions, but it's one of those cases where having an out-of-box just-works Office doc editing solution would be a great marketing bullet point. The Surface Pro isn't going to replace a laptop for me, but it comes much closer to being something I'd consider taking as my sole device on a trip than an iPad or Android tablet. (Somewhat amusing in that the laptop it would be replacing on that hypothetical trip is a MBP.)
  - andrewjshults 14y ago
    Back in the day, I used the original lightroom on a Toshiba m200 (one of the original XP tablet machines). Even with the greater weight, far more limited battery life and relatively limited processing power (I think I had a 2.0GHz single core - mostly processing 4MP files off the 1DmkI so it was able to keep up decently), the Wacom digitizer in screen was amazing for touchups (it makes masking so much faster than anything else). If someone comes up with a case that makes it more usable on the lap as a laptop, I could see replacing my MBA with it for most uses.
    - taude 14y ago
      Modern Lightroom uses WAY more resources than earlier versions, especially when using the newer brush and gradient tools. I find my new 15" MBP/SSD/16 Gigs RAM/etc seems to get pushed pretty hard. I'd be curious how well Lightroom runs on the Surface Pro, or similar.
redact207 14y ago
I'm just impressed that someone's finally found a practical way to do work on a tablet.
- seanmcdirmid 14y ago
  2010 has called and wants their comment back. People have been doing work on tablets for awhile, have you been to a Starbucks in the states recently?
  - rubbingalcohol 14y ago
    People at Starbucks with tablets are usually too busy posing to get any real work done.
    - seanmcdirmid 14y ago
      So the keyboard covers/cases and the typing, those people are just pretending right?
      - gamblor956 14y ago
        Highly location dependent. In some coffee shops, the people using tablets or laptops are probably working or studying. In many others, the people are there to be seen or to give off the appearance of working. I live in LA and work near Beverly Hills, and so the vast majority of the people that I see in coffee shops are just posing.
        seanmcdirmid 14y ago
        Strange. When I visit the states I'm based usually in Seattle/Bellevue, where I see starbucks full of people writing on their iPads, bizarrely enough (you'd expect to see some Surfaces now given the locale but...). At home in China, iPads are common but mostly used for entertainment, not work. I seriously doubt its posing anymore. When everyone in the coffee shop has an iPad (including the partners), what is there to pose about?
Bockit 14y ago
It's nice to hear this kind of device review from a corner you don't usually hear it from. Rather than the usual kind of review broken up into the usual sections, maybe a storage, space, benchmarks, screen, software kind of thing, we have a guy who has specific use cases for it talking about how he used it for those cases, what worked and what didn't. And then comparing it to how he normally does those kinds of activities. Even though I don't have the same use cases as him, I feel like I got more out of it this way.
- jmspring 14y ago
  I think the better summary is -- "great to hear a device review from outside the echo chamber". I'd like to see other non-tech specific reviews of Surface Pro (and similar hardware). All too often, we focus on what is most relevant to our own particular use cases. Looking at possible Win8 laptops, I'm wanting something comparable to my MBA -- decent SSD storage and ram for development (8gig) -- a few options there, but the options crater when you add the third requirement -- touch. But I realize, I am not the normal use case and can't judge any particular hardware beyond what my own personal uses may be.
  - seanx 14y ago
    Sony Duo 11. I have one as my primary dev machine and it works pretty well + I can play Civ 5 on the plane.
    - phaus 14y ago
      Is there anything that you are less than satisfied with about it? I was close to getting one, but when I heard the stylus was the S-Trig (significantly inferior to the Wacom for artistic purposes) I just got an iPad 4 to hold me over for a couple of years. It looked really awesome, but 1300 bucks is quite a bit of money for me.
      - scholia 14y ago
        Drawing on an iPad is dreadful....
recoiledsnake 14y ago
> I left it at 125% and just like he had suggested my color picker was working again! I finished the strip at 125% magnification with no trouble but then I had to switch it back to 150% when I was finished. You can disable the DPI scale up in the compatibility tab of the file properties of the exe. In this case he could've set it for Sketchbook's exe and the rest of the OS would continue to be at 150%. Hopefully, this is just a temporary stopgap while application developers start supporting high resolutions. Image of setting: http://km.support.apple.com/library/APPLE/APPLECARE_ALLGEOS/HT4309/TS4309_1-boo_camp-disable_dpi-002-en.png http://km.support.apple.com/library/APPLE/APPLECARE_ALLGEOS/...
- Cushman 14y ago
  That URL is deeply confusing.
  - bvdbijl 14y ago
    Yeah, a link to an apple help doc that shows a dialog of Battlefield 3
    - adlpz 14y ago
      A Windows dialog. Whoa.
      - yread 14y ago
        that's because it's running on a "boo_camp"
  - elemeno 14y ago
    I'd imagine that it's a result of people running into the same issue whilst duel booting Windows on Macs with Retina screens.
    - SEMW 14y ago
      Exactly right: the image is from http://support.apple.com/kb/TS4309?viewlocale=en_US&locale=en_US http://support.apple.com/kb/TS4309?viewlocale=en_US&loca.... (Props to Google reverse image search).
creativityland 14y ago
Glad to see a positive review on the Surface. It really deserves more attention than it's getting.
ChrisClark 14y ago
I wonder how it compares to all the Android tablets with Wacom digitizers. Sounds like he sees no pen lag at all, that's really nice.
habosa 14y ago
Great review, it's awesome to see gadget reviews from a specific use case instead of just "7/10 on our random everything score scale". I wish there was a review site for the HN crowd. Someone that would use every device like a software developer would: tinkering with settings, trying to write/run code, integrating with other services, etc. I generally like reviews on Engadget/The Verge but sometimes I feel they care about different things than I care about. Anyone know of a gadget review site for hackers?
- iamdave 14y ago
  We should start said site.
  - habosa 14y ago
    I agree, although I feel there is a large barrier to entry to entering the review business since you need to buy a lot of expensive things to review them.
    - iamdave 14y ago
      Not always. I have a friend who runs a pretty popular Android blog, routinely mentions that at times, it's as easy as asking for a review product and it's yours.
      - habosa 14y ago
        Check out my profile and shoot me an email, I'd love to maybe give this a shot.
  - highace 14y ago
    An excellent idea and I'm sure there's definitely a gap for it, as long as you're a decent and enthusiastic reviewer and writer.
wuest 14y ago
I'm glad to see the Surface Pro getting some good reviews. I actually really want this sort of hardware to take off--and I _really_ want to see a compelling Linux offering on it. This sort of device would fit the needs I have both for a laptop and for a tablet, and if/when I hear that Linux is running great and Plasma Active works like a charm on the Surface Pro (or, indeed, comparable piece of hardware), I'm dropping the full sticker price on one.
interpol_p 14y ago
I really want one of these. As a Cintiq 24HD owner I could totally see the Surface Pro replacing it — denser screen, portable, doesn't weigh 40KG. The only thing that really annoyed me is that the 150% DPI setting throws off the colour picker in Sketchbook Pro. How is the OS allowing this to happen? It seems stupid that the DPI setting is so badly implemented it actually breaks apps. (I have heard that Civ 5 with touch on the Surface Pro also requires the DPI to be changed.)
- T-Winsnes 14y ago
  I would look at it the other way. Why is the app so broken that it doesn't have support for multiple DPIs?
  - interpol_p 14y ago
    The app shouldn't know about the DPI being used by the OS. It should be completely transparent to the app — this is not the app's responsibility.
    - T-Winsnes 14y ago
      Yes and no, it should be transparent as in the app shouldn't be broken because someone has set their DPI to be different than usual. This becomes especially important when you have an application that can run on different devices with high and low DPI. Also, the 150% DPI setting is an accessibility feature for people with bad eye sight. All apps on windows desktop should support it. If your app doesn't, and setting it to 150% breaks your app, it's you fault for not spending the resources to support it. It might be a business decision, and that's cool, but it's still your choice. Can't blame it on anyone else.
      - interpol_p 14y ago
        If it's an accessibility feature only — and might break apps — then it shouldn't be the default setting on the Surface Pro. In a well designed operating system the application should not have to explicitly handle arbitrary DPI settings for correct touch/pointer input. An unsupported application should simply look blurry if it does not provide correct raster assets for the specified DPI. That's it.
raganwald 14y ago
The conclusion I draw from everything I've heard is that the Surface Pro is a terrible iPad and an excellent PC laptop. Issues like the battery life, heat, weight, RAM free, and so on are reasonable for a Windows machine. If my perspective is correct, look for the Surface Pro to cannibalize sales from MS's "partners." I do expect it to appeal to the kind of person who buys a PC laptop and an iPad. And that's a great market for MS to defend. But for people who want just a tablet, I expect iPads to carry on selling by the container. If Microsoft's vision of everyone needing a computer is correct, the Surface pro will destroy the laptop. But if Apple's vision of a "post-PC" world is correct, the vast majority of the tablet market will be just tablets, and the iPad will continue to thrive. It all seems to come down to whether you think of tablets as weak computers with a tablet interface or whether you think of them as an appliances that run software.
- jacquesm 14y ago
  It's been a while since the tablet market was defined as 'iPad'.
  - raganwald 14y ago
    I didn't say that, what I said was that Apple's vision is that there's a market for tablets and that iPad will thrive as long as there's a market for tablets. Thrive as in 90%? 70%? 40%? 320% but 50% of the profit? Who knows. But I don't define the tablet market as iPad and only iPad. And it's possible that Apple is wrong and that there isn't a tablet market. Maybe it's just that PCs suck so much, but given time and innovation we'll all end up with really lightweight PCs that have tablet interfaces. This might just be a phase, just as PDAs were a phase until smartphones subsumed their functionality.
    - tripzilch 14y ago
      > the Surface Pro is a terrible iPad and an excellent PC laptop Or maybe the iPad is a terrible Surface Pro :-P But seriously: > Maybe it's just that PCs suck so much, but given time and innovation we'll all end up with really lightweight PCs that have tablet interfaces. Maybe given time and innovation we'll all end up with really open iPads that you don't need to pay for the privilege to run your code on and have touch screens actually deserving of the name "tablet" (meaning you can draw on them). That would be awesome because those actually are the two main things like to do on my computer, coding and drawing :) But with the iPad's battery life and (lack of) heat. It will also have an eInk screen on the back, and a programmable strip of LEDs on the sides. Also a strong, retractable piece of string loop, for if you're in a pinch and you need a wall clock, lamp or as a painting: when you're done working, set it to the "HOME SWEET HOME" screensaver on the eInk side, and hang it on the wall. Anyone got an idea of how to work a 3D printer into a tablet? Cause we need those, too. (so that cybercriminals can infect it with a virus that makes it build legs and walk away into the thief's hands) (and people will still be complaining "if this is the future, where's our flying cars??!")
Felix21 14y ago
One article with a meaningful use-case and i am very tempted to buy the the Surface Pro. I think this is where Apple's marketing Excels over Microsoft's. Apple will show you use-cases like this all day long, showing you how their products are a better tool to get your job done. Microsoft on the other hand -"it has more memory", "USB", "its Powerful", "hd screen", "it runs excel", "side by side apps", "YAWN". Great article; VERY TEMPTING.
- ygra 14y ago
  Actually, the Surface Pro commercial (http://youtu.be/tr3dFSzh1yU http://youtu.be/tr3dFSzh1yU) shows some stylus usage and has nothing of "more memory", "USB", "powerful" or "side-by-side apps". There is a bit of Excel though, I think. Still, it doesn't exactly present why you would want to have such a device, except for dancing in a meeting room.
- Morcane 14y ago
  You mean, Apple will go on all day about 'how cool and stylish' their new iSomething looks. But yea, Microsoft's marketing department can use a little help.
danpeddle 14y ago
Is it just the surface pro that has this tech built in..? Crazy that this feature has not been promoted more.
- jan_g 14y ago
  Some Samsung galaxy tablets have 'S Pen' that also use Wacom digitiser system (pressure sensitivity and similar). See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samsung_Galaxy_Note#Stylus http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samsung_Galaxy_Note#Stylus and http://www.samsung.com/uk/consumer/mobile-devices/galaxy-note/10-1/GT-N8000EAABTU-features http://www.samsung.com/uk/consumer/mobile-devices/galaxy-not...
- mtgx 14y ago
  All Galaxy Note devices have it.
robotmay 14y ago
It was great to see him mention how well Civilisation V is supported on it. I love that game, and hearing that it runs so well on the Surface Pro would probably be the tipping point for me if I had the money spare to spend on one.
tluyben2 14y ago
Excellent review. Like others say; it's really nice to see a non technical pov as the pure tech part has already been done to death on a lot of sites. What I even like more is that this is really heating up the niche; Asus, Samsung, Acer, HP, Dell are all watching and rapidly introducing competitors. Good for us. Maybe 2013 will be the year I can buy my dream system :) Currently the Thinkpad Helix seems to be closest; if it had double the battery life, I would buy it without looking further.
cbeach 14y ago
"My wife is playing Civ" If my girlfriend took an interest in Civ there'd be a ring on her finger ASAP!
hdra 14y ago
maybe this shows how terrible of a job the marketing department at Microsoft is doing ? reading this review alone made me look for the device online to check its price and I've had mostly the "meh" reaction since launch with all of their ads.
- city41 14y ago
  I feel the same way. I've been very "meh" on the Surfaces (Pro and RT). The other day I stopped by Best Buy and played with both of them. Still very meh on the Surface RT as it's very slow. But the Pro was very impressive, which I was really not expecting.
- tanzam75 14y ago
  Apple's marketing department can sell ice to an Eskimo. Microsoft's marketing department cannot sell water to a man who's dying of thirst. Although -- whoever at Microsoft decided to ship a free Surface Pro to a popular online artist had the right idea. That review probably sold enough Surface Pros to pay his salary for the year.
chx 14y ago
Sorry for the snark remark but -- if every single Cintiq 24HD owner buys an MS Surface Pro then MS will gain... a measurement error in the tablet market share.
supar 14y ago
Are there any digitizer users here? I use a Wacom digitizer daily for notes and sketches instead of using pen&paper. My wet dream is a pressure&tilt sensitive/e-ink based device, but it looks like the Surface Pro is the closest you can get currently - and this is a good review. If you want a portable device (laptop/ultrabook/tablet) with a good digitizer that you can actually use (that is, wacom based), your options are actually very few. There is the Lifebook T902, or the ThinkPad X230T. Did I miss anything else? Both are convertible laptops, both are quite heavy, have medium to poor battery life if you extend them with the additional battery, and a lower-dpi screen. I would have expected higher-range graphics on those laptops, but the integrated HD 4000 is ridicolous when you think you basically get the same on an ultrabook. Not to mention that the price range is simply off. The Surface Pro is way cheaper. I used an earlier version of the Lifebook T902. It's actually better than having a separate digitizer which takes useless space on the desk, but it's still cumbersome. You cannot draw unless you flip the screen (odd position otherwise). It's really heavy. A clipboard with paper is an all-around better. There are two segments of markets that are filled by this usage pattern: on-the-go artists, and cheap cintiq replacements. Drawing on a cintiq is just awesome, but wacom has basically a monopole and the prices are just unjustified. Even the Intuos line is, IMHO, overpriced at least by a 2x factor. The sad reality is that they have absolutely no real competition. I tried several NTrig-based digitizers (lately the Vaio Duo 11), and they just suck. The tracking is just worse, many jumps just over a few hours of testing, not to mention that the pressure sensitivity is lower too (when you're drawing strokes it's quite visible unless the software is not interpolating it for you). Just look at the missed opportunities there are! The Taichi 21 and VAIO Duo 11 are cool, but they use N-Trig. The keyboard on the Lenovo Yoga is awesome, but no digitizer. The Dell XPS 12 looks stunning, but again missed opportunity. It was rumored to ship with a wacom layer, but it didn't finally. The only downside of the Surface is the keyboard. I tried the flip keyboard of the Surface Rt and I only hope that the keyboard from the Pro is different, because it sucks. Missed keys, zero feedback. Admittedly, it's better than typing on an on-screen keyboard, but the Taichi 21 of the Dell XPS 12 approaches are way better. As a sad note, the replaceable battery concept is gone on all these modes. You know, I would settle for lower battery life if I could just have 2, or 3. I was actually shocked that at least HP offers the EliteBook Folio 9470m which has a replaciable battery in a thin format (the ultrabook is awesome), so there are really no excuses for it.
DocG 14y ago
Really good review! It has changed my mind on surface pro. It will still be out of my price range and I am not going to buy it, but it has changed my mind about it. Best tradeoff for MS with surface series ever? For one tablet, HN is changing its mind?:D
dade_ 14y ago
I am really surprised that I keep reading blog posts, this one included, that state the only option for an iPad stylus is the eraser head style capacitive pieces of crap. This entire post was about a tablet that runs uncomfortably warm, with buggy software, short battery life, tiny available user storage and an occasionally useful flip stand, but has a pressure sensitive stylus and it is the best. Oh yeah, and Microsoft gave him the device, so I dare say he didn't actually research his options. Has no one heard of Jot? I'd be interested to read his comparison of the pressure sensive jot on his iPad to the Surface Pro. http://adonit.net/jot/touch/ http://adonit.net/jot/touch/
- slantyyz 14y ago
  I have one of the original Jots from their kickstarter project. Pressure sensitivity aside, it's just OK. The precision is way better than those crayon styluses, but it skips regularly (although I heard washing the tip with dishwashing soap helps). I've heard that Dagi's stylus, which is also a transparent-bullseye type of stylus, skips a lot less. Here's a comparison of the two on a Galaxy: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NfYijQCnFSE http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NfYijQCnFSE
mtgx 14y ago
Galaxy Note 10.1 also has a Wacom stylus that has 1024 levels of pressure sensitivity. I see most people here weren't even aware of it. And I think it only costs like $400 now, if you're interested in drawing and Sketchbook. The Surface Pro stylus doesn't work on Photoshop anyway, so you're not losing anything, if you're just interested in drawing.
- nivla 14y ago
  Interesting, din't know that it came with a Wacom stylus, but still android is far from a full OS. Maybe if you can throw in Ubuntu it might change people's mind. Also, not sure how Sketchbook Pro compares with its android app, is it a cute version or does it have full functionality? How is the performance like? Is there is a drawing lag? What about side by side use of apps? Someone needs to do a review. >Surface Pro stylus doesn't work on Photoshop anyway. Not yet, Wacom support on Photoshop is promised in future updates and it will come eventually. > $400 now I have to agree that is an awesome price for such a tablet but since I have always been a sucker for full OS, I might shell out more to just get the satisfaction.
- rtkwe 14y ago
  The Photoshop issue on the Surface is (presumably) just a driver issue and will be resolved shortly. Also having the whole of the Windows program library is a huge plus for the Surface. I've yet to see a truly viable solution for developing on an android tablet, SSHing to a remote server is sort of there but having a fully featured IDE is miles above in terms of usability. Also the keyboard integration seems much slicker with the Surface.
bitwize 14y ago
I just bought a Sony laptop/tablet thing with a stylus. After some unwanted wrestling with Secure Boot I got Slackware on the thing, patched the kernel to recognize the N-Trig tablet part, and it is now my art box. It works wonderfully; and I had indeed considered the Surface Pro for such a purpose, but this device is slightly larger and has 6 GiB of RAM.
jcampbell1 14y ago
A bit off topic, but can someone comment on how the stylus works? I assume the "pressure sensitivity" comes from a sensor in the pen, and is wirelessly relayed back to the device (bluetooth?). Is there something else that makes it more accurate than capacitive multi touch? Is it possible to put a pressure sensitive stilus on an iPad with bluetooth and app support, or do you need different hardware?
- cnahr 14y ago
  Different hardware. The Surface Pro (and the Sony Vaio Duo which is the other Windows 8 convertible with a Wacom stylus) include an additional dedicated sensor grid for the stylus. The iPad and most other tablets (including Surface RT) can only use a capacitive stylus that emulates finger taps, and therefore is relatively inaccurate.
- niels_olson 14y ago
  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Graphics_tablet#Operation http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Graphics_tablet#Operation
deleted 14y ago
[deleted]
dferlemann 14y ago
2 things have been keeping me from buying one: 1. Disk space. 128GB is not going to cut it for using as laptop/desktop replacement. 2. Heat. I'm paranoid about my devices' lifespan cause by overheating... Overall, I like this tablet. For the features it offer, the price seems right... hate to say that.

The MS Surface Pro

440 points by kposehn 14y ago

iomike 14y ago

Microsoft shilling

djt 14y ago
more like smart marketing on their behalf. For my use cases I think it would be terrible but sounds like a winner for him.
Alterlife 14y ago
Why would you say that? He likes it, and he's given good reasons for why he does. His wife likes it, I can understand the reasons why she does as well. You disagree with him, but you've given no reasons for it... Mr. Anti Microsoft drone. -- As a developer, I still wouldn't buy the device. Partly because it's on the upper end of my budget, but for the most part because of the downsides: heat, lack of serviceability, and most of all I think the compromise that has to be made ie: not being able to use the keyboard while on the lap, is a deal killer. There are cheaper portable machines which are better for developers.
- lnanek2 14y ago
  Gaming community has a lot less MS hate than other communities as well. Since you have to play Halo et. all if you want to have covered all the famous works, and they had the first good online community, etc..
- taude 14y ago
  Not using keyboard on lap is the biggest deal breaker for me, too. Waiting to see how some of these Asus clam-shell convertibles turn out, like that Asus Vivo Tab: http://www.asus.com/vivo/en/vivotab.htm http://www.asus.com/vivo/en/vivotab.htm (But want something more spec'd like the Surface Pro)
nemo1618 14y ago
/g/ please go
scholia 14y ago
Don't be a dick.
TWAndrews 14y ago
If you were the least bit familiar with Penny Arcade, you'd know how ridiculous that sounds.

10char 14y ago

I'm still a bit disappointed that Apple has yet to add a Wacom layer to their devices. It's so unquestionably better at doing writing, sketching, and note-taking than crudely smudging your fingers. iPads still fail pretty hard at being useful during math class. I had an old-style swivel tablet (Windows Vista?), and it was a fantastic device to take notes on, invaluable for classwork. OneNote + pen-input really seemed like the future of school computing...but the prices on those machines never came down and the iPad et al took them by storm shortly thereafter.

jrajav 14y ago
> I had an old-style swivel tablet (Windows Vista?), and it was a fantastic device to take notes on, invaluable for classwork. OneNote + pen-input really seemed like the future of school computing...but the prices on those machines never came down and the iPad et al took them by storm shortly thereafter. I had one of these too, an older IBM Thinkpad. The note-taking ability was definitely invaluable. If I were taking college over again right now I would seriously consider a Surface over a Macbook for this reason alone.
shuzchen 14y ago
Yeah, I had a tablet computer back before Apple redefined what tablet meant. It was a Fujitsu machine and OneNote with a wacom pen was definitely a really nice way to take notes in class. However, while I am excited by the machines that are coming out nowadays (surface pro, thinkpad helix to name a few) that will give me both the tablet and laptop experience, I'm dismayed that they're going the way of apple in terms of not giving us access to replace the battery/switch out drives/upgrade RAM on our own. If someone put a door on the backside of a thinkpad helix, I'd buy it for sure.
- vxNsr 14y ago
  Yeah, the issue is space and weight, apple showed that by removing customizability they can significantly reduce the size and weight as well as provide better battery life and nicer looking designs, and when it comes to tablets most people opt for lighter and smaller over replaceable parts.

gfunk911 14y ago

Interesting. We now have an actual niche/use case where the Surface Pro could be a compelling leader, and not just "totally decent." Artists. Also, doesn't an apple-style commercial where somebody gets an email with a word doc attached, edits it, and emails it back with changes while on the train or something seem obvious....

majormajor 14y ago
Ever since it was first announced I thought it would be an ideal on-the-go photo management/editing program (I could easily get by in Lightroom without a keyboard, and the pen would be tons of fun) so it's cool to see that they hit that mark for that. I'm going to hold off until a cooler/longer battery life revision 2, though. Or possibly a ThinkPad Helix or something, but that's still not really a loss for MS. MS's schizophrenia (or whatever) strikes again on that second one, though: the cheap model comes with Office, the full-featured one doesn't. I guess they're trying to push everyone to subscriptions, but it's one of those cases where having an out-of-box just-works Office doc editing solution would be a great marketing bullet point. The Surface Pro isn't going to replace a laptop for me, but it comes much closer to being something I'd consider taking as my sole device on a trip than an iPad or Android tablet. (Somewhat amusing in that the laptop it would be replacing on that hypothetical trip is a MBP.)
- andrewjshults 14y ago
  Back in the day, I used the original lightroom on a Toshiba m200 (one of the original XP tablet machines). Even with the greater weight, far more limited battery life and relatively limited processing power (I think I had a 2.0GHz single core - mostly processing 4MP files off the 1DmkI so it was able to keep up decently), the Wacom digitizer in screen was amazing for touchups (it makes masking so much faster than anything else). If someone comes up with a case that makes it more usable on the lap as a laptop, I could see replacing my MBA with it for most uses.
  - taude 14y ago
    Modern Lightroom uses WAY more resources than earlier versions, especially when using the newer brush and gradient tools. I find my new 15" MBP/SSD/16 Gigs RAM/etc seems to get pushed pretty hard. I'd be curious how well Lightroom runs on the Surface Pro, or similar.

redact207 14y ago

I'm just impressed that someone's finally found a practical way to do work on a tablet.

seanmcdirmid 14y ago
2010 has called and wants their comment back. People have been doing work on tablets for awhile, have you been to a Starbucks in the states recently?
- rubbingalcohol 14y ago
  People at Starbucks with tablets are usually too busy posing to get any real work done.
  - seanmcdirmid 14y ago
    So the keyboard covers/cases and the typing, those people are just pretending right?
    - gamblor956 14y ago
      Highly location dependent. In some coffee shops, the people using tablets or laptops are probably working or studying. In many others, the people are there to be seen or to give off the appearance of working. I live in LA and work near Beverly Hills, and so the vast majority of the people that I see in coffee shops are just posing.
      - seanmcdirmid 14y ago
        Strange. When I visit the states I'm based usually in Seattle/Bellevue, where I see starbucks full of people writing on their iPads, bizarrely enough (you'd expect to see some Surfaces now given the locale but...). At home in China, iPads are common but mostly used for entertainment, not work. I seriously doubt its posing anymore. When everyone in the coffee shop has an iPad (including the partners), what is there to pose about?

Bockit 14y ago

It's nice to hear this kind of device review from a corner you don't usually hear it from. Rather than the usual kind of review broken up into the usual sections, maybe a storage, space, benchmarks, screen, software kind of thing, we have a guy who has specific use cases for it talking about how he used it for those cases, what worked and what didn't. And then comparing it to how he normally does those kinds of activities. Even though I don't have the same use cases as him, I feel like I got more out of it this way.

jmspring 14y ago
I think the better summary is -- "great to hear a device review from outside the echo chamber". I'd like to see other non-tech specific reviews of Surface Pro (and similar hardware). All too often, we focus on what is most relevant to our own particular use cases. Looking at possible Win8 laptops, I'm wanting something comparable to my MBA -- decent SSD storage and ram for development (8gig) -- a few options there, but the options crater when you add the third requirement -- touch. But I realize, I am not the normal use case and can't judge any particular hardware beyond what my own personal uses may be.
- seanx 14y ago
  Sony Duo 11. I have one as my primary dev machine and it works pretty well + I can play Civ 5 on the plane.
  - phaus 14y ago
    Is there anything that you are less than satisfied with about it? I was close to getting one, but when I heard the stylus was the S-Trig (significantly inferior to the Wacom for artistic purposes) I just got an iPad 4 to hold me over for a couple of years. It looked really awesome, but 1300 bucks is quite a bit of money for me.
    - scholia 14y ago
      Drawing on an iPad is dreadful....

recoiledsnake 14y ago

> I left it at 125% and just like he had suggested my color picker was working again! I finished the strip at 125% magnification with no trouble but then I had to switch it back to 150% when I was finished. You can disable the DPI scale up in the compatibility tab of the file properties of the exe. In this case he could've set it for Sketchbook's exe and the rest of the OS would continue to be at 150%. Hopefully, this is just a temporary stopgap while application developers start supporting high resolutions. Image of setting: http://km.support.apple.com/library/APPLE/APPLECARE_ALLGEOS/HT4309/TS4309_1-boo_camp-disable_dpi-002-en.png http://km.support.apple.com/library/APPLE/APPLECARE_ALLGEOS/...

Cushman 14y ago
That URL is deeply confusing.
- bvdbijl 14y ago
  Yeah, a link to an apple help doc that shows a dialog of Battlefield 3
  - adlpz 14y ago
    A Windows dialog. Whoa.
    - yread 14y ago
      that's because it's running on a "boo_camp"
- elemeno 14y ago
  I'd imagine that it's a result of people running into the same issue whilst duel booting Windows on Macs with Retina screens.
  - SEMW 14y ago
    Exactly right: the image is from http://support.apple.com/kb/TS4309?viewlocale=en_US&locale=en_US http://support.apple.com/kb/TS4309?viewlocale=en_US&loca.... (Props to Google reverse image search).

creativityland 14y ago

Glad to see a positive review on the Surface. It really deserves more attention than it's getting.

ChrisClark 14y ago

I wonder how it compares to all the Android tablets with Wacom digitizers. Sounds like he sees no pen lag at all, that's really nice.

habosa 14y ago

Great review, it's awesome to see gadget reviews from a specific use case instead of just "7/10 on our random everything score scale". I wish there was a review site for the HN crowd. Someone that would use every device like a software developer would: tinkering with settings, trying to write/run code, integrating with other services, etc. I generally like reviews on Engadget/The Verge but sometimes I feel they care about different things than I care about. Anyone know of a gadget review site for hackers?

iamdave 14y ago
We should start said site.
- habosa 14y ago
  I agree, although I feel there is a large barrier to entry to entering the review business since you need to buy a lot of expensive things to review them.
  - iamdave 14y ago
    Not always. I have a friend who runs a pretty popular Android blog, routinely mentions that at times, it's as easy as asking for a review product and it's yours.
    - habosa 14y ago
      Check out my profile and shoot me an email, I'd love to maybe give this a shot.
- highace 14y ago
  An excellent idea and I'm sure there's definitely a gap for it, as long as you're a decent and enthusiastic reviewer and writer.

wuest 14y ago

I'm glad to see the Surface Pro getting some good reviews. I actually really want this sort of hardware to take off--and I _really_ want to see a compelling Linux offering on it. This sort of device would fit the needs I have both for a laptop and for a tablet, and if/when I hear that Linux is running great and Plasma Active works like a charm on the Surface Pro (or, indeed, comparable piece of hardware), I'm dropping the full sticker price on one.

interpol_p 14y ago

I really want one of these. As a Cintiq 24HD owner I could totally see the Surface Pro replacing it — denser screen, portable, doesn't weigh 40KG. The only thing that really annoyed me is that the 150% DPI setting throws off the colour picker in Sketchbook Pro. How is the OS allowing this to happen? It seems stupid that the DPI setting is so badly implemented it actually breaks apps. (I have heard that Civ 5 with touch on the Surface Pro also requires the DPI to be changed.)

T-Winsnes 14y ago
I would look at it the other way. Why is the app so broken that it doesn't have support for multiple DPIs?
- interpol_p 14y ago
  The app shouldn't know about the DPI being used by the OS. It should be completely transparent to the app — this is not the app's responsibility.
  - T-Winsnes 14y ago
    Yes and no, it should be transparent as in the app shouldn't be broken because someone has set their DPI to be different than usual. This becomes especially important when you have an application that can run on different devices with high and low DPI. Also, the 150% DPI setting is an accessibility feature for people with bad eye sight. All apps on windows desktop should support it. If your app doesn't, and setting it to 150% breaks your app, it's you fault for not spending the resources to support it. It might be a business decision, and that's cool, but it's still your choice. Can't blame it on anyone else.
    - interpol_p 14y ago
      If it's an accessibility feature only — and might break apps — then it shouldn't be the default setting on the Surface Pro. In a well designed operating system the application should not have to explicitly handle arbitrary DPI settings for correct touch/pointer input. An unsupported application should simply look blurry if it does not provide correct raster assets for the specified DPI. That's it.

raganwald 14y ago

The conclusion I draw from everything I've heard is that the Surface Pro is a terrible iPad and an excellent PC laptop. Issues like the battery life, heat, weight, RAM free, and so on are reasonable for a Windows machine. If my perspective is correct, look for the Surface Pro to cannibalize sales from MS's "partners." I do expect it to appeal to the kind of person who buys a PC laptop and an iPad. And that's a great market for MS to defend. But for people who want just a tablet, I expect iPads to carry on selling by the container. If Microsoft's vision of everyone needing a computer is correct, the Surface pro will destroy the laptop. But if Apple's vision of a "post-PC" world is correct, the vast majority of the tablet market will be just tablets, and the iPad will continue to thrive. It all seems to come down to whether you think of tablets as weak computers with a tablet interface or whether you think of them as an appliances that run software.

jacquesm 14y ago
It's been a while since the tablet market was defined as 'iPad'.
- raganwald 14y ago
  I didn't say that, what I said was that Apple's vision is that there's a market for tablets and that iPad will thrive as long as there's a market for tablets. Thrive as in 90%? 70%? 40%? 320% but 50% of the profit? Who knows. But I don't define the tablet market as iPad and only iPad. And it's possible that Apple is wrong and that there isn't a tablet market. Maybe it's just that PCs suck so much, but given time and innovation we'll all end up with really lightweight PCs that have tablet interfaces. This might just be a phase, just as PDAs were a phase until smartphones subsumed their functionality.
  - tripzilch 14y ago
    > the Surface Pro is a terrible iPad and an excellent PC laptop Or maybe the iPad is a terrible Surface Pro :-P But seriously: > Maybe it's just that PCs suck so much, but given time and innovation we'll all end up with really lightweight PCs that have tablet interfaces. Maybe given time and innovation we'll all end up with really open iPads that you don't need to pay for the privilege to run your code on and have touch screens actually deserving of the name "tablet" (meaning you can draw on them). That would be awesome because those actually are the two main things like to do on my computer, coding and drawing :) But with the iPad's battery life and (lack of) heat. It will also have an eInk screen on the back, and a programmable strip of LEDs on the sides. Also a strong, retractable piece of string loop, for if you're in a pinch and you need a wall clock, lamp or as a painting: when you're done working, set it to the "HOME SWEET HOME" screensaver on the eInk side, and hang it on the wall. Anyone got an idea of how to work a 3D printer into a tablet? Cause we need those, too. (so that cybercriminals can infect it with a virus that makes it build legs and walk away into the thief's hands) (and people will still be complaining "if this is the future, where's our flying cars??!")

Felix21 14y ago

One article with a meaningful use-case and i am very tempted to buy the the Surface Pro. I think this is where Apple's marketing Excels over Microsoft's. Apple will show you use-cases like this all day long, showing you how their products are a better tool to get your job done. Microsoft on the other hand -"it has more memory", "USB", "its Powerful", "hd screen", "it runs excel", "side by side apps", "YAWN". Great article; VERY TEMPTING.

ygra 14y ago
Actually, the Surface Pro commercial (http://youtu.be/tr3dFSzh1yU http://youtu.be/tr3dFSzh1yU) shows some stylus usage and has nothing of "more memory", "USB", "powerful" or "side-by-side apps". There is a bit of Excel though, I think. Still, it doesn't exactly present why you would want to have such a device, except for dancing in a meeting room.
Morcane 14y ago
You mean, Apple will go on all day about 'how cool and stylish' their new iSomething looks. But yea, Microsoft's marketing department can use a little help.

danpeddle 14y ago

Is it just the surface pro that has this tech built in..? Crazy that this feature has not been promoted more.

jan_g 14y ago
Some Samsung galaxy tablets have 'S Pen' that also use Wacom digitiser system (pressure sensitivity and similar). See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samsung_Galaxy_Note#Stylus http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samsung_Galaxy_Note#Stylus and http://www.samsung.com/uk/consumer/mobile-devices/galaxy-note/10-1/GT-N8000EAABTU-features http://www.samsung.com/uk/consumer/mobile-devices/galaxy-not...
mtgx 14y ago
All Galaxy Note devices have it.

robotmay 14y ago

It was great to see him mention how well Civilisation V is supported on it. I love that game, and hearing that it runs so well on the Surface Pro would probably be the tipping point for me if I had the money spare to spend on one.

tluyben2 14y ago

Excellent review. Like others say; it's really nice to see a non technical pov as the pure tech part has already been done to death on a lot of sites. What I even like more is that this is really heating up the niche; Asus, Samsung, Acer, HP, Dell are all watching and rapidly introducing competitors. Good for us. Maybe 2013 will be the year I can buy my dream system :) Currently the Thinkpad Helix seems to be closest; if it had double the battery life, I would buy it without looking further.

cbeach 14y ago

"My wife is playing Civ" If my girlfriend took an interest in Civ there'd be a ring on her finger ASAP!

hdra 14y ago

maybe this shows how terrible of a job the marketing department at Microsoft is doing ? reading this review alone made me look for the device online to check its price and I've had mostly the "meh" reaction since launch with all of their ads.

city41 14y ago
I feel the same way. I've been very "meh" on the Surfaces (Pro and RT). The other day I stopped by Best Buy and played with both of them. Still very meh on the Surface RT as it's very slow. But the Pro was very impressive, which I was really not expecting.
tanzam75 14y ago
Apple's marketing department can sell ice to an Eskimo. Microsoft's marketing department cannot sell water to a man who's dying of thirst. Although -- whoever at Microsoft decided to ship a free Surface Pro to a popular online artist had the right idea. That review probably sold enough Surface Pros to pay his salary for the year.

chx 14y ago

Sorry for the snark remark but -- if every single Cintiq 24HD owner buys an MS Surface Pro then MS will gain... a measurement error in the tablet market share.

supar 14y ago

Are there any digitizer users here? I use a Wacom digitizer daily for notes and sketches instead of using pen&paper. My wet dream is a pressure&tilt sensitive/e-ink based device, but it looks like the Surface Pro is the closest you can get currently - and this is a good review. If you want a portable device (laptop/ultrabook/tablet) with a good digitizer that you can actually use (that is, wacom based), your options are actually very few. There is the Lifebook T902, or the ThinkPad X230T. Did I miss anything else? Both are convertible laptops, both are quite heavy, have medium to poor battery life if you extend them with the additional battery, and a lower-dpi screen. I would have expected higher-range graphics on those laptops, but the integrated HD 4000 is ridicolous when you think you basically get the same on an ultrabook. Not to mention that the price range is simply off. The Surface Pro is way cheaper. I used an earlier version of the Lifebook T902. It's actually better than having a separate digitizer which takes useless space on the desk, but it's still cumbersome. You cannot draw unless you flip the screen (odd position otherwise). It's really heavy. A clipboard with paper is an all-around better. There are two segments of markets that are filled by this usage pattern: on-the-go artists, and cheap cintiq replacements. Drawing on a cintiq is just awesome, but wacom has basically a monopole and the prices are just unjustified. Even the Intuos line is, IMHO, overpriced at least by a 2x factor. The sad reality is that they have absolutely no real competition. I tried several NTrig-based digitizers (lately the Vaio Duo 11), and they just suck. The tracking is just worse, many jumps just over a few hours of testing, not to mention that the pressure sensitivity is lower too (when you're drawing strokes it's quite visible unless the software is not interpolating it for you). Just look at the missed opportunities there are! The Taichi 21 and VAIO Duo 11 are cool, but they use N-Trig. The keyboard on the Lenovo Yoga is awesome, but no digitizer. The Dell XPS 12 looks stunning, but again missed opportunity. It was rumored to ship with a wacom layer, but it didn't finally. The only downside of the Surface is the keyboard. I tried the flip keyboard of the Surface Rt and I only hope that the keyboard from the Pro is different, because it sucks. Missed keys, zero feedback. Admittedly, it's better than typing on an on-screen keyboard, but the Taichi 21 of the Dell XPS 12 approaches are way better. As a sad note, the replaceable battery concept is gone on all these modes. You know, I would settle for lower battery life if I could just have 2, or 3. I was actually shocked that at least HP offers the EliteBook Folio 9470m which has a replaciable battery in a thin format (the ultrabook is awesome), so there are really no excuses for it.

DocG 14y ago

Really good review! It has changed my mind on surface pro. It will still be out of my price range and I am not going to buy it, but it has changed my mind about it. Best tradeoff for MS with surface series ever? For one tablet, HN is changing its mind?:D

dade_ 14y ago

I am really surprised that I keep reading blog posts, this one included, that state the only option for an iPad stylus is the eraser head style capacitive pieces of crap. This entire post was about a tablet that runs uncomfortably warm, with buggy software, short battery life, tiny available user storage and an occasionally useful flip stand, but has a pressure sensitive stylus and it is the best. Oh yeah, and Microsoft gave him the device, so I dare say he didn't actually research his options. Has no one heard of Jot? I'd be interested to read his comparison of the pressure sensive jot on his iPad to the Surface Pro. http://adonit.net/jot/touch/ http://adonit.net/jot/touch/

slantyyz 14y ago
I have one of the original Jots from their kickstarter project. Pressure sensitivity aside, it's just OK. The precision is way better than those crayon styluses, but it skips regularly (although I heard washing the tip with dishwashing soap helps). I've heard that Dagi's stylus, which is also a transparent-bullseye type of stylus, skips a lot less. Here's a comparison of the two on a Galaxy: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NfYijQCnFSE http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NfYijQCnFSE

mtgx 14y ago

Galaxy Note 10.1 also has a Wacom stylus that has 1024 levels of pressure sensitivity. I see most people here weren't even aware of it. And I think it only costs like $400 now, if you're interested in drawing and Sketchbook. The Surface Pro stylus doesn't work on Photoshop anyway, so you're not losing anything, if you're just interested in drawing.

nivla 14y ago
Interesting, din't know that it came with a Wacom stylus, but still android is far from a full OS. Maybe if you can throw in Ubuntu it might change people's mind. Also, not sure how Sketchbook Pro compares with its android app, is it a cute version or does it have full functionality? How is the performance like? Is there is a drawing lag? What about side by side use of apps? Someone needs to do a review. >Surface Pro stylus doesn't work on Photoshop anyway. Not yet, Wacom support on Photoshop is promised in future updates and it will come eventually. > $400 now I have to agree that is an awesome price for such a tablet but since I have always been a sucker for full OS, I might shell out more to just get the satisfaction.
rtkwe 14y ago
The Photoshop issue on the Surface is (presumably) just a driver issue and will be resolved shortly. Also having the whole of the Windows program library is a huge plus for the Surface. I've yet to see a truly viable solution for developing on an android tablet, SSHing to a remote server is sort of there but having a fully featured IDE is miles above in terms of usability. Also the keyboard integration seems much slicker with the Surface.

bitwize 14y ago

I just bought a Sony laptop/tablet thing with a stylus. After some unwanted wrestling with Secure Boot I got Slackware on the thing, patched the kernel to recognize the N-Trig tablet part, and it is now my art box. It works wonderfully; and I had indeed considered the Surface Pro for such a purpose, but this device is slightly larger and has 6 GiB of RAM.

jcampbell1 14y ago

A bit off topic, but can someone comment on how the stylus works? I assume the "pressure sensitivity" comes from a sensor in the pen, and is wirelessly relayed back to the device (bluetooth?). Is there something else that makes it more accurate than capacitive multi touch? Is it possible to put a pressure sensitive stilus on an iPad with bluetooth and app support, or do you need different hardware?

cnahr 14y ago
Different hardware. The Surface Pro (and the Sony Vaio Duo which is the other Windows 8 convertible with a Wacom stylus) include an additional dedicated sensor grid for the stylus. The iPad and most other tablets (including Surface RT) can only use a capacitive stylus that emulates finger taps, and therefore is relatively inaccurate.
niels_olson 14y ago
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Graphics_tablet#Operation http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Graphics_tablet#Operation

deleted 14y ago

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dferlemann 14y ago

2 things have been keeping me from buying one: 1. Disk space. 128GB is not going to cut it for using as laptop/desktop replacement. 2. Heat. I'm paranoid about my devices' lifespan cause by overheating... Overall, I like this tablet. For the features it offer, the price seems right... hate to say that.