8 ms·

Conflicting Assertions Over an Electric Car Test Drive

43 points by tokenadult 14y ago

tokenadult 14y ago
There was an extensive, and on the whole rather favorable, review of the Model S from The Verge http://www.theverge.com/2013/2/12/3969260/going-the-distance-driving-tesla-model-s-in-the-real-world http://www.theverge.com/2013/2/12/3969260/going-the-distance... submitted to HN while most participants were discussing the John Broder New York Times review. (Most participants missed the discussion on the article from The Verge.) http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5208154 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5208154 The author of the report in The Verge takes care to mention, "Tesla hopes for its first quarter of black ink this year after a decade of operation, but make no mistake, it’s still in the throes of startupdom. Much of its working capital has come from nearly half a billion dollars in low-interest rate government loans. It has just a few dozen dealers around the world."
deleted 14y ago
[deleted]
bitsweet 14y ago
I eventually intend to ask him to fully release and “open source” the driving logs Wow... how 'open source' has become so mainstream. We can now all look forward to the term getting fully diluted and loose its meaning. Already in this article the term is being abused to, IMO, shift the tone from a "challenge by NYTimes" to a plea to Tesla's values.
- michael_miller 14y ago
  How do you feel that the term has been diluted? As far as I can tell, the statement is true to the Collins dictionary definition of "intellectual property, esp computer source code, that is made freely available to the general public by its creators" [1]. The data is intellectual property that will (hopefully) be made freely available for the general public to scrutinize. [1] http://www.collinsdictionary.com/dictionary/english/open-source http://www.collinsdictionary.com/dictionary/english/open-sou...
  - dfxm12 14y ago
    It is being diluted in multiple ways: 1. The author is "verbing" the phrase 2. The Collins definition starts like "intellectual property, esp. source code..." I contend that (as does the free dictionary), in current usage, "open source" refers exclusively to source code. The author is using the phrase to refer to data, which is not the same thing. http://www.thefreedictionary.com/open%20source http://www.thefreedictionary.com/open%20source
    - untog 14y ago
      With regard to your first point: http://www.hnsearch.com/search#request/all&q=open+sourcing http://www.hnsearch.com/search#request/all&q=open+sourci... I think that the tech community is the one that verbed "open sourcing".
  - bitsweet 14y ago
    Are you trolling me? I guess I'll take the bait... The Collins Dictionary isn't even consistent on the term Open Source. The Collins American Dictionary defines open source as "designating of software whose code is made public and which is thus available to any programmer to develop and customize" [1] where as the Collins English Dictionary defines at as you quoted "intellectual property, esp computer source code, that is made freely available to the general public by its creators" [2] Even wikipedia agrees that "Generally, open source refers to a program in which the source code is available to the general public for use and/or modification from its original design." [4] and google does too: https://www.google.com/search?q=define%3A+open+source https://www.google.com/search?q=define%3A+open+source I've never heard the term used to refer to intellectual property but regardless, Collins Dictionary defines intellectual property as "something produced by the mind, of which the ownership or right to use may be legally protected by a copyright, patent, trademark, etc."[3] - Log data from a car doesn't seem to fit into the category of things produced by the mind. So as far as I can tell, to "open source" log data is not true to the definition and is is a misuse of the term. I think the abuse is using a term that recently society has found favorable...transforming it into a verbal tool to challenge an adversary. How does sharing raw log data fit into what wikipedia succinctly states "A main principle and practice of open-source software development is peer production by bartering and collaboration, with the end-product, source-material, "blueprints", and documentation available at no cost to the public." [4] [1] http://www.collinsdictionary.com/dictionary/american/open-source http://www.collinsdictionary.com/dictionary/american/open-so... [2] http://www.collinsdictionary.com/dictionary/english/open-source http://www.collinsdictionary.com/dictionary/english/open-sou... [3] http://www.collinsdictionary.com/dictionary/american/intellectual-property http://www.collinsdictionary.com/dictionary/american/intelle... [4] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Open_source http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Open_source
- grecy 14y ago
  I think it's clear this journalist is not a techie, evidenced by your example and: >> screen shots of the car driving logs. I've never thought of jpg graphs as "screen shots".
  - lallysingh 14y ago
    Their editor may have wanted a clarification for interested but non-technical audiences. And "screenshot", while inaccurate, is a pretty good approximation of "summary, not raw data," in one word.
  - nitrogen 14y ago
    For that matter, I never thought of JPEG as a good format for graphs.
bksenior 14y ago
I applaud the NYT attempt to come out and acknowledge what happened and ask for a "fair fight" from both parties. This is much stronger than a lame PR statement. Also the links to Reddit conversations off-site are a great testament to just how much journalism has changed in the past decade. Can't wait to see who wins this heavyweight fight. slowly reaches for popcorn
- joezydeco 14y ago
  Wouldn't it have been nice if the NYT went out and bought a couple of GoPros before the test drive? Musk obviously improved his recordkeeping, how hard would it have been for the NYT to up their game as well?
  - aharrison 14y ago
    This is what blows my mind in both directions: 1) A reporter not recording everything he does in the age of GoPro and a 2 TB harddrives at Best Buy. 2) Tesla did record damn near everything: GPS, battery, display, temperature (internal and target), charge duration, etc. Metrics are king, and I think we are ushering in a new age of "you can't bullshit me, I recorded it too" journalism.
    - lallysingh 14y ago
      I think a raw recording of the entire trip inside the cabin is a pretty personal thing to ask for someone used to only having a heavily reviewed and edited public facade. Then there's the matter of hosting all that video, and of successfully summarizing it into a form that's both properly balanced and digestible by a the audience. Certainly doable, but it's a new skill-set that would take time to develop.
      - aharrison 14y ago
        I was not trying to imply that this data should be generally available, just that he should have access to it as definitive proof, at least to his superiors.
jeffcox 14y ago
In the end I expect both parties to be at fault, no one to apologize, and all of us to be unclear as to what exactly happened.
- stcredzero 14y ago
  Tesla has a chance to come out of this with more positive publicity than before.
  - vor_ 14y ago
    I don't know. I don't find it impressive for a company to aggressively refute bad reviews. It comes off as insecure to me.
  - duaneb 14y ago
    This comes off as straight negative to me, especially considering the last I saw of them was winning the car of the year award. I would probably have never seen this review, and the fact that Musk is throwing such a tantrum about it (to my initial perception, anyway) does not endear the brand to me. I doubt this would ever affect my buying decision, but I wouldn't call this positive publicity by any extent. Arguments and conflicts only look good when you are the clear winner.
    - stcredzero 14y ago
      > This comes off as straight negative to me, especially considering the last I saw of them was winning the car of the year award. If a bunch of people end up triumphantly tweeting about their successful road trips as they replicate the trip, Tesla will come out ahead.
nickpinkston 14y ago
As an aside, I love that they linked to the discussion on Reddit - even when at the bottom it has its own comment box (with conspicuously no comments?).
joshAg 14y ago
"Here's the most important data point: Musk says Broder unplugged the charger after charging to a range of 32 miles and then drove off for the final segment of his trip which spanned 61 miles. The car made it 51 miles. If Broder can't contest that, there isn't much use quibbling over Musk's other accusations." [1] [1]: http://www.theatlanticwire.com/technology/2013/02/elon-musks-data-doesnt-back-his-claims-new-york-times-fakery/62149/#comment-799443017 http://www.theatlanticwire.com/technology/2013/02/elon-musks...
rayiner 14y ago
No, there are not conflicting assertions. There are objective facts on one side, and assertions on the other.
- BryantD 14y ago
  This is incorrect. For example, "Our Model S never had a chance with John Broder" is an assertion. "Vehicle logs tell true story that he didn't actually charge to max & took a long detour" is an assertion ("long detour") and one that Musk backed away from. There are also assertions in the original post that Musk's data didn't address. For example, Broder said that a Tesla customer support agent gave him inaccurate information about appropriate driving patterns for maximum range. Broder may or may not be accurate there but it's certainly an important part of the argument.
- vor_ 14y ago
  The conflict is over which side has the objective facts.
duaneb 14y ago
I realize that there are two companies' reputations at stake here, but this is feeling a little like arguing over how stupid the driver was, not actually about the Tesla itself.

43 points by tokenadult 14y ago

There was an extensive, and on the whole rather favorable, review of the Model S from The Verge http://www.theverge.com/2013/2/12/3969260/going-the-distance-driving-tesla-model-s-in-the-real-world http://www.theverge.com/2013/2/12/3969260/going-the-distance... submitted to HN while most participants were discussing the John Broder New York Times review. (Most participants missed the discussion on the article from The Verge.) http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5208154 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5208154 The author of the report in The Verge takes care to mention, "Tesla hopes for its first quarter of black ink this year after a decade of operation, but make no mistake, it’s still in the throes of startupdom. Much of its working capital has come from nearly half a billion dollars in low-interest rate government loans. It has just a few dozen dealers around the world."

deleted 14y ago

[deleted]

bitsweet 14y ago

I eventually intend to ask him to fully release and “open source” the driving logs Wow... how 'open source' has become so mainstream. We can now all look forward to the term getting fully diluted and loose its meaning. Already in this article the term is being abused to, IMO, shift the tone from a "challenge by NYTimes" to a plea to Tesla's values.

michael_miller 14y ago
How do you feel that the term has been diluted? As far as I can tell, the statement is true to the Collins dictionary definition of "intellectual property, esp computer source code, that is made freely available to the general public by its creators" [1]. The data is intellectual property that will (hopefully) be made freely available for the general public to scrutinize. [1] http://www.collinsdictionary.com/dictionary/english/open-source http://www.collinsdictionary.com/dictionary/english/open-sou...
- dfxm12 14y ago
  It is being diluted in multiple ways: 1. The author is "verbing" the phrase 2. The Collins definition starts like "intellectual property, esp. source code..." I contend that (as does the free dictionary), in current usage, "open source" refers exclusively to source code. The author is using the phrase to refer to data, which is not the same thing. http://www.thefreedictionary.com/open%20source http://www.thefreedictionary.com/open%20source
  - untog 14y ago
    With regard to your first point: http://www.hnsearch.com/search#request/all&q=open+sourcing http://www.hnsearch.com/search#request/all&q=open+sourci... I think that the tech community is the one that verbed "open sourcing".
- bitsweet 14y ago
  Are you trolling me? I guess I'll take the bait... The Collins Dictionary isn't even consistent on the term Open Source. The Collins American Dictionary defines open source as "designating of software whose code is made public and which is thus available to any programmer to develop and customize" [1] where as the Collins English Dictionary defines at as you quoted "intellectual property, esp computer source code, that is made freely available to the general public by its creators" [2] Even wikipedia agrees that "Generally, open source refers to a program in which the source code is available to the general public for use and/or modification from its original design." [4] and google does too: https://www.google.com/search?q=define%3A+open+source https://www.google.com/search?q=define%3A+open+source I've never heard the term used to refer to intellectual property but regardless, Collins Dictionary defines intellectual property as "something produced by the mind, of which the ownership or right to use may be legally protected by a copyright, patent, trademark, etc."[3] - Log data from a car doesn't seem to fit into the category of things produced by the mind. So as far as I can tell, to "open source" log data is not true to the definition and is is a misuse of the term. I think the abuse is using a term that recently society has found favorable...transforming it into a verbal tool to challenge an adversary. How does sharing raw log data fit into what wikipedia succinctly states "A main principle and practice of open-source software development is peer production by bartering and collaboration, with the end-product, source-material, "blueprints", and documentation available at no cost to the public." [4] [1] http://www.collinsdictionary.com/dictionary/american/open-source http://www.collinsdictionary.com/dictionary/american/open-so... [2] http://www.collinsdictionary.com/dictionary/english/open-source http://www.collinsdictionary.com/dictionary/english/open-sou... [3] http://www.collinsdictionary.com/dictionary/american/intellectual-property http://www.collinsdictionary.com/dictionary/american/intelle... [4] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Open_source http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Open_source
grecy 14y ago
I think it's clear this journalist is not a techie, evidenced by your example and: >> screen shots of the car driving logs. I've never thought of jpg graphs as "screen shots".
- lallysingh 14y ago
  Their editor may have wanted a clarification for interested but non-technical audiences. And "screenshot", while inaccurate, is a pretty good approximation of "summary, not raw data," in one word.
- nitrogen 14y ago
  For that matter, I never thought of JPEG as a good format for graphs.

bksenior 14y ago

I applaud the NYT attempt to come out and acknowledge what happened and ask for a "fair fight" from both parties. This is much stronger than a lame PR statement. Also the links to Reddit conversations off-site are a great testament to just how much journalism has changed in the past decade. Can't wait to see who wins this heavyweight fight. slowly reaches for popcorn

joezydeco 14y ago
Wouldn't it have been nice if the NYT went out and bought a couple of GoPros before the test drive? Musk obviously improved his recordkeeping, how hard would it have been for the NYT to up their game as well?
- aharrison 14y ago
  This is what blows my mind in both directions: 1) A reporter not recording everything he does in the age of GoPro and a 2 TB harddrives at Best Buy. 2) Tesla did record damn near everything: GPS, battery, display, temperature (internal and target), charge duration, etc. Metrics are king, and I think we are ushering in a new age of "you can't bullshit me, I recorded it too" journalism.
  - lallysingh 14y ago
    I think a raw recording of the entire trip inside the cabin is a pretty personal thing to ask for someone used to only having a heavily reviewed and edited public facade. Then there's the matter of hosting all that video, and of successfully summarizing it into a form that's both properly balanced and digestible by a the audience. Certainly doable, but it's a new skill-set that would take time to develop.
    - aharrison 14y ago
      I was not trying to imply that this data should be generally available, just that he should have access to it as definitive proof, at least to his superiors.

jeffcox 14y ago

In the end I expect both parties to be at fault, no one to apologize, and all of us to be unclear as to what exactly happened.

stcredzero 14y ago
Tesla has a chance to come out of this with more positive publicity than before.
- vor_ 14y ago
  I don't know. I don't find it impressive for a company to aggressively refute bad reviews. It comes off as insecure to me.
- duaneb 14y ago
  This comes off as straight negative to me, especially considering the last I saw of them was winning the car of the year award. I would probably have never seen this review, and the fact that Musk is throwing such a tantrum about it (to my initial perception, anyway) does not endear the brand to me. I doubt this would ever affect my buying decision, but I wouldn't call this positive publicity by any extent. Arguments and conflicts only look good when you are the clear winner.
  - stcredzero 14y ago
    > This comes off as straight negative to me, especially considering the last I saw of them was winning the car of the year award. If a bunch of people end up triumphantly tweeting about their successful road trips as they replicate the trip, Tesla will come out ahead.

nickpinkston 14y ago

As an aside, I love that they linked to the discussion on Reddit - even when at the bottom it has its own comment box (with conspicuously no comments?).

joshAg 14y ago

"Here's the most important data point: Musk says Broder unplugged the charger after charging to a range of 32 miles and then drove off for the final segment of his trip which spanned 61 miles. The car made it 51 miles. If Broder can't contest that, there isn't much use quibbling over Musk's other accusations." [1] [1]: http://www.theatlanticwire.com/technology/2013/02/elon-musks-data-doesnt-back-his-claims-new-york-times-fakery/62149/#comment-799443017 http://www.theatlanticwire.com/technology/2013/02/elon-musks...

rayiner 14y ago

No, there are not conflicting assertions. There are objective facts on one side, and assertions on the other.

BryantD 14y ago
This is incorrect. For example, "Our Model S never had a chance with John Broder" is an assertion. "Vehicle logs tell true story that he didn't actually charge to max & took a long detour" is an assertion ("long detour") and one that Musk backed away from. There are also assertions in the original post that Musk's data didn't address. For example, Broder said that a Tesla customer support agent gave him inaccurate information about appropriate driving patterns for maximum range. Broder may or may not be accurate there but it's certainly an important part of the argument.
vor_ 14y ago
The conflict is over which side has the objective facts.

duaneb 14y ago

I realize that there are two companies' reputations at stake here, but this is feeling a little like arguing over how stupid the driver was, not actually about the Tesla itself.