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Will Your College Go Out of Business Before You Graduate?

111 points by fraXis 14y ago

guptaneil 14y ago
I believe every college maintains a backup fund to make sure that the college can survive at least 5-10 years if all else fails. In such a scenario, the school would prioritize using the money to make sure that current students can graduate and that their degree is worth something for at least a couple years. EDIT: That was poorly worded. I meant to say that the fund is meant as a buffer to help the school avoid shutting down, so that they have time to get their act together. But it also helps guarantee that their degrees will be worth something for at least a few years, so that students feel safe continuing at the school and so recent graduates are not screwed over by something that wasn't their fault. I'm not sure, but this might even be an accreditation requirement.
- sliverstorm 14y ago
  Aside from the goodness of their hearts, why would they do that?
  - guptaneil 14y ago
    I edited the post, it was poorly worded. My intention was to say that colleges are at least somewhat protected from just "going out of business" since that would potentially destroy the lives of thousands of recent graduates. As far as why they would do that, my guess is that is probably a requirement to get accredited.
    - rammark 14y ago
      "The institution’s financial resources are sufficient to sustain the quality of its educational program and to support institutional improvement now and in the foreseeable future. The institution demonstrates, through verifiable internal and external evidence, its financial capacity to graduate its entering class. The institution administers its financial resources with integrity." -- New England Association of Schools and Colleges, Standards for Accreditation [1], Page 22 I'm sure the other regional accreditation agencies have similar requirements. [1](PDF) http://cihe.neasc.org/downloads/Standards/Standards_for_Accreditation_FINAL_2011.pdf http://cihe.neasc.org/downloads/Standards/Standards_for_Accr...
- cmckay 14y ago
  One data point: I teach at a small liberal arts college. Our endowment is roughly of the same order as our annual budget. Annual draw-down on the endowment is 4.5% or so, which means that the rest of the budget comes from tuition. If enrollment cratered (but didn't go entirely to zero) I suppose the administration could draw the shortfall from the endowment, but the board would pitch a fit, (and likely not approve that kind of move) and it's a sign that the college isn't going to be around long. The full sticker price (Tuition, Fees, Room and Board) just passed $40k/year last year, and it's having an impact on our ability to recruit students. Since so much of our budget comes from tuition, though, a shortfall of even 30 students from predicted numbers (out of a total student population of about 1400) can cause a serious budget crunch.
HarryHirsch 14y ago
"Why in the world are schools building new buildings? What is required in a business school classroom that is any different than the classroom for psychology or sociology or english or any other number of classes?" This question is easy to answer. In a time of declining public funds universities are trying to attract students, because tuition is about the only funding source left. Consequently, universities have to look appealing to students, and that means cushy dorms, spiffy libraries, the lot. Again: these are investments made from the general fund, and the university tries to recover these through increased tuition income. A classic market failure.
- dantheman 14y ago
  How is it a market failure? If anything it's a direct result of the ease at which students can get loans from the federal government.
  - TruthElixirX 14y ago
    Everything people don't like are market failures. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5098258 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5098258 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5112837 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5112837 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4738488 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4738488 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=963251 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=963251 etc People keep calling things like city planning a market failure when it is full of regulation. Or healthcare when the U.S. government spends the most money on healthcare in the U.S. etc People throw the term around without knowing what it means. EDIT: Changed "is a market failure" to "are market failures".
    - sliverstorm 14y ago
      Oh yeah? Well your comment is a market failure. edit: I was being humorous.
  - HarryHirsch 14y ago
    For starters, the gratuitous building and renovation does nothing to improve the quality of the degree, and certainly increases cost of tuition. The university isn't better off, and the students undoubtedly are worse off. If that isn't a market failure I wouldn't know what is.
atdrummond 14y ago
Typically when this happens another college or set of colleges will step up to take the students. This occurred in the case of Parsons College (whose campus is interestingly now the Maharishi University of Management) and Antioch College. More aggressively another college might take over the failed institution, as in the case of Compton College's failure in 1995. El Camino College not only accepted Compton's students but took over the facilities and faculty as well.
Claudus 14y ago
List of Colleges and Universities that have Closed, Merged, or Changed their Names http://www2.westminster-mo.edu/wc_users/homepages/staff/brownr/closedcollegeindex.htm http://www2.westminster-mo.edu/wc_users/homepages/staff/brow...
- cafard 14y ago
  I had a glance at the list, out of curiosity to see whether it included Case Western or Carnegie Mellon, both whose names reflect mergers. It did not. My point, though, is that mergers are not necessarily bad.
ballard 14y ago
Many top 100 universities are gleaming with dozens of new buildings: - Stanford tore down some donated admin buildings across from Schwab GSB that were not even 10 years old. A good portion of the med school is being gradually torn down and rebuilt near the hospital. (Will the roads ever be back to normal two-way traffic?) - Davis is littered with new buildings. - Harvard's 10 year construction schedule and $30,000,000,000.00+ under HMC. Probably a safer bet. Whether funds begged from donors and liquidated from students are utilized efficiently is another matter.
fawce 14y ago
I love this quote: "Going to a 4 year school is supposed to be the foundation from which you create a future, not the transaction that crushes everything you had hoped to do because you have more debt than you could possibly pay off in 10 years." I hosted a coursera meetup recently (http://www.meetup.com/Coursera/Boston-MA/829362/ http://www.meetup.com/Coursera/Boston-MA/829362/) and I met two students who were enrolled as part time off-campus students, taking the required minimum of classes at the university, and only "spending" those classes on requirements for their majors. All of their enrichment beyond the major was through MOOCs like Coursera. They told me it would take 6 years instead of four, but cost way less, and the preferred the MOOCs for the advanced material anyway. The last piece of the puzzle for them was finding internships, so they could lay the groundwork for a job upon graduating. Compared to my "find yourself" traipse through college, I was blown away by the steel-trap optimization these guys were applying to school. This economic downturn is breeding a whole generation of just-try-to-stop-me kids. It will be awesome 25 years from now when they are in charge.
- rogem002 14y ago
  > This economic downturn is breeding a whole generation of just-try-to-stop-me kids. I disagree that the economic downturn is the cause of these young peoples motivations. I would argue that due to a large amount of people achieving a high level of education, degrees are not a foot in the door. As a result personal investments such as attending networking events, doing work experience and building an online presence (Such as a quality GitHub account) will make it a lot easier to stand out from the herd.
- javajosh 14y ago
  Something that I dislike is when people use jargon without defining it. In this case, you used "MOOC" without definition. I didn't have to, but I looked it up and it means Massive Open Online Course. But I am annoyed that I had to look it up, and I'm giving you feedback that, in the future, you should define your terms.
  - fawce 14y ago
    noted, thanks.
eksith 14y ago
The college I went to, nearly went out of business several times. I think now, attendance is rising as people who're out of work are going back to school. I have two jobs for now, but I'm thinking of quitting one and going back to school myself. Although it's awkward majoring in something that has nothing to do with your current line of work. What's really annyoing is that no one asks for your GPA (well at least, they didn't ask me) no matter where I applied; just the school and what courses I took. The more I see people who don't have a college degree getting things done, the more I feel college, while you do learn, is still a scam as far as jobs are concerned. And I'd rather learn for the sake of learning than learn just to get a job.
danielford 14y ago
One reason for new buildings on college campuses is that donors and the government are much more willing to give funds for that purpose than they are for salaries and benefits, which make up the bulk of most college budgets. So, I understand your frustration if you're angry about tuition rising while your college is erecting a new building every three years, but those are usually two separate piles of money, and there's not much your college can do to change that. That said, I still flinch every time I hear about a new building on our campus. I'm increasingly uncomfortable with the perception that colleges are living large while tuition rates climb, and I feel we should be more conspicuously frugal to combat it.
- akadien 14y ago
  This is quite true. For state schools, new buildings may be a "gift" from the political class to show the public their support for higher education. The stupid irony is those buildings typically don't come with operations and maintenance funds. At the same time, state appropriations are decreasing, putting the pinch on O&M and department support. The university (or publicly supported research institute) has a shiny new building in which they can put neither equipment nor people.
  - jobu 14y ago
    It's too bad the donor money comes with so many strings attached. I wonder if the universities could get away with renting out some of the space in some of these buildings. That could at least cover some of the operating costs.
    - hkmurakami 14y ago
      It's a little ironic that I don't give to my alma mater's annual giving program precisely because there would be no strings attached and I'd have no idea what the administration would be spending the money on. I'm hoping that in the future I'll be able to give to the Engineering school in some meaningful way, or contribute to need based scholarships.
  - snomad 14y ago
mitchty 14y ago
It's already starting. http://www.cva.edu/ http://www.cva.edu/ This college in St Paul last year just got some art accreditation that purportedly takes into account future financial viability. They just announced they can't remain financially solvent. So much for accreditation. At this point I think education will have a rather interesting next few years.
- chaostheory 14y ago
  I find it interesting that the art focused universities tend to be the ones going under first.
  - littlegiantcap 14y ago
    It's interesting, but not particularly surprising. There's only so much that can be done with a fine arts degree. My girlfriend started off school as a Art history major because she loved art, but quickly changed once she realized there was essentially no future in the field unless you wanted to stay in academia.
  - Crake 14y ago
    I mostly find it hilarious.
- Crake 14y ago
  Whoah, wasn't expecting to see CVA mentioned on HN. I know someone who decided to go there thinking they'd get paid $60,000 a year after graduating with their fine arts degree. Of course, I'm pretty sure they thought the same thing about their first undergraduate degree, too, which was a liberal arts degree from a similarly overpriced private college. Interesting that CVA wasn't accredited until 2011.
vincefutr23 14y ago
does anyone know where to look to find out how much debt a college has or what their financials are?
- barake 14y ago
  Any non-profit school has to file a form 990 with the IRS. Debt isn't always included in the filing, but Moody's usually includes a pretty accurate debt estimate along with credit ratings. Here is Stanford's 990 from 2011: http://bondholder-information.stanford.edu/pdf/Stanford_990_FY11.pdf http://bondholder-information.stanford.edu/pdf/Stanford_990_...
tstactplsignore 14y ago
As much as online degree may be the future, this is really out of touch. An online degree is still considered absolutely useless in academia, law, and medicine. Literally none of the students currently graduating in the top 5% of their classes will pursue an online degree as opposed to a traditional school.
- cszy 14y ago
  I think you missed the point of the article, which is that a number of schools simply do not have a sustainable business model and may not exist in 4 years unless they make major changes. Entry level classes in particular could be taught online, since the contents of many of the lectures never change. Likewise, if the credits transferred (unfortunately they frequently do not), a smart student would take those introductory classes from another institution. Schools pay professors huge salaries, tuition rises, meanwhile the quality of the education is the same. Of course, specialized degrees like law and medicine that require special training and licensing will always be around. But I'd expect many colleges to start hosting introductory classes entirely online to save money and probably dropping entire degree programs within the next several years.
jrs235 14y ago
In order to stay afloat how many larger universities will no longer allow transfer credits to prevent people going to cheaper schools for gen Eds?
- protomyth 14y ago
  That might run them into hot water with the accreditation folks.
- Bramble 14y ago
  Thankfully, there is regulation in this area for any school that gets state funding. If state-subsidized 4-years don't accept X number of transfer students from that state's community colleges every year, they can say goodbye to a chunk of their state funding. I can't speak for private universities, however.
- Crake 14y ago
  Oh, they'll accept them. They just won't count towards your major. They're sneaky like that.
justin_vanw 14y ago
I'm not saying this is what you should do, but it's probably what I would do if my college went under: Put on my resume that I graduated. From a school that was good, not the shitty one that went out of business. Actually, as someone who didn't graduate, I find that just not mentioning whether or not I graduated works fine. I just say 'University of X, 200X - 200X, Mathematics' on my resume. At this point in my career it doesn't matter, and back when it might have mattered almost nobody has the balls to say to you "I see that you attended University of X for n years, did you graduate?".
- chaostheory 14y ago
  > Put on my resume that I graduated. From a school that was good, not the shitty one that went out of business. Not counting the ethical part, I don't think this is very smart. All of the jobs that I have worked for do background checks on both your employment history and education.
  - rjbond3rd 14y ago
    Plus, who wants to go to a job where they think you're somebody else? Being who you really are is the ultimate perk.
  - patmcguire 14y ago
    Ethical issues aside (and I've never done any of this) - who checks your education? I've never had anyone ask for transcripts, and I've never seen a database of what they're supposed to look like. You could send in anything with a watermark-y looking thing and 99% of people would take it.
    - yukoncornelius 14y ago
      Many employers, especially those with a dedicated HR department, call the stated university verify degrees. This is especially true if a security clearance/background check is an employment requirement. I believe a Yahoo exec got caught by this last year.
    - 14y ago
rglover 14y ago
I graduated a little over a year ago and am now faced with at least $50k in debt (not accounting for interest). The school I attended was a state university and sadly, the education I received may have amounted to ~$20k. I say this because the majority of my instructors were recent hires out of the university's own graduate programs and (IMHO) lacked the experience to teach certain topics. The remaining cost I assume, was for "campus enhancements" like swapping out printed cafeteria menus with flat screen tv's (you must understand, this was an eco friendly initiative). Universities are a trap. The future they're selling kids is non-existent and they know it. Instead of uni-hopping, students should start picking up topics/trades of interest early, studying on nights and weekends leading up to their hs graduation. The obvious suggestion is learn code, but it could include a lot more. Don't send your kids to school. Be proactive and find out what they're interested in early and nurture it. It may rob them partially of a childhood, but at least their adulthood won't be a depressing, seemingly pointless adventure.
- jmduke 14y ago
  Have you ever considered that your advice to parents should have been applied to your college experience? A college education in which you go to class, study, and do assignments is not worth $50K. College lets you do a lot more than that, and it sounds like you robbed yourself of a great four years.
  - redegg 14y ago
    > "College lets you do a lot more than that Let me guess, thats an euphemism for "getting laid".
  - rglover 14y ago
    I do, but unfortunately, coming from Northwest Ohio and two parents who didn't attend college in its entirety themselves (my mom had an associates), the need to groom me early (assuming, here) wasn't immediately apparent. Moreover, sitting in a tiny box, having sex, getting loaded (proof: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WuJ60dAHyc4 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WuJ60dAHyc4 -- a party house my roommates and I ran) and joining campus orgs (I ran the campus radio station as the General Manager my Sophomore year and was an active member throughout my stint at the school -- I was even awarded a years worth of paid tuition) was still not worth the skull crushing debt I now have to dig through. If I skipped college, I still would have gotten laid, smoked pot, and learned how to program. Edit: I taught myself how to program in my spare time. My degree is in broadcast management.
timr 14y ago
I was honestly expecting a different sort of rant from Mark Cuban. It's nice to see someone taking on the business of college, without dismissing the need for a college education. Bravo to someone who gets it. That said, while I agree with his premise, I'll admit to being a little sad about the consequences: people in power rarely talk about it, but the kids who go to the "name schools" have a huge career advantage over the kids who go to Podunk University. I should know -- I went to a tiny school, and somehow managed to end up in silicon valley, where the leaders and power brokers are (wait for it)...almost exclusively graduates of the Ivy League. And this isn't the only industry where that's true. It's disheartening. A hard-working, smart graduate from Oklahoma State with a degree in computer science degree will be at a substantial disadvantage when it comes to getting the best jobs -- the big boys (Google, Facebook, etc.) might send a recruiter to the campus career fair once a year, but they aren't hosting hackathons, sponsoring scholarships, or setting up permanent shop in the career center, like they'll do for Stanford or Berkeley or MIT. And when it comes time to reach for the management fast-track, those Ivy contacts go a long way. So, who wins when the ability to pay for college out-of-pocket determines the economic winners and losers? Not the poor. We're rapidly heading to a country with a rigid and unyielding class structure, thanks to the brutal realities of unfettered market capitalism.
- hkmurakami 14y ago
  Most of the "elite" schools offer fairly generous need based aid. Yes, there are problems like some middle class families getting caught in the gaps -- but the financial divide is a bigger problem in the younger years of a student, all the way from elementary school to high school, where the family's financial means makes a massive difference in the extra attention, extracurricular pursuits, and the quality of instruction at the school. I can only speak for Silicon Valley where I grew up, but there's a strong correlation between a school's quality and the income level of the school district. Your family's financial status impacts where you live, which impacts the quality of your education, which in turn deeply affects your odds of being accepted to an "elite" school in the first place.
  - timr 14y ago
    "Most of the "elite" schools offer fairly generous need based aid. Yes, there are problems like some middle class families getting caught in the gaps." That's a huge problem. The "need" calculation takes into account things like your parents' savings for retirement, as if they're going to cash out their 401k to put you through school. The effect is to lock out the vast majority of students whose parents were responsible, but not rich. "but there's a strong correlation between a school's quality and the income level of the school district." Absolutely. That's probably the biggest source of institutionalized classism (and racism) in our society.
yukoncornelius 14y ago
A lot of misinformation in these comments centers around the fact that many universities constructed new buildings from 2008-2012 as construction costs were low due to the high levels of under and unemployed in the construction sector. This factor combined with poor expected returns to their endowments made it appear wise to make capital investments. Whether this was a good or bad idea won't be realized for many years.
rooker 14y ago
I was just thinking about this recently. Our generation is so fucked. Tuition rising, fewer jobs, recession, social security not going to be there when we get older, the first true tax increase for every American (payroll tax, we all felt it to the tune of 2% on our first paycheck of January) since the mid-90s, and now the retiring generation is saying "Welp! It's up to you to fix it! Good luck!" Assholes.
rdl 14y ago
I would still generally be comfortable with 250k in debt to get a Stanford or Harvard degree, provided I wanted to work in a field where that credential would be a huge benefit. The better deal is probably to ROTC, though. Especially since the military is downsizing, you could comfortably spend your service commitment doing interesting stuff and then leave debt free and with great experience. USAF or USN, obviously. It also seems like an excellent way to do medical school if that is your goal, too.

111 points by fraXis 14y ago

I believe every college maintains a backup fund to make sure that the college can survive at least 5-10 years if all else fails. In such a scenario, the school would prioritize using the money to make sure that current students can graduate and that their degree is worth something for at least a couple years. EDIT: That was poorly worded. I meant to say that the fund is meant as a buffer to help the school avoid shutting down, so that they have time to get their act together. But it also helps guarantee that their degrees will be worth something for at least a few years, so that students feel safe continuing at the school and so recent graduates are not screwed over by something that wasn't their fault. I'm not sure, but this might even be an accreditation requirement.

sliverstorm 14y ago
Aside from the goodness of their hearts, why would they do that?
- guptaneil 14y ago
  I edited the post, it was poorly worded. My intention was to say that colleges are at least somewhat protected from just "going out of business" since that would potentially destroy the lives of thousands of recent graduates. As far as why they would do that, my guess is that is probably a requirement to get accredited.
  - rammark 14y ago
    "The institution’s financial resources are sufficient to sustain the quality of its educational program and to support institutional improvement now and in the foreseeable future. The institution demonstrates, through verifiable internal and external evidence, its financial capacity to graduate its entering class. The institution administers its financial resources with integrity." -- New England Association of Schools and Colleges, Standards for Accreditation [1], Page 22 I'm sure the other regional accreditation agencies have similar requirements. [1](PDF) http://cihe.neasc.org/downloads/Standards/Standards_for_Accreditation_FINAL_2011.pdf http://cihe.neasc.org/downloads/Standards/Standards_for_Accr...
cmckay 14y ago
One data point: I teach at a small liberal arts college. Our endowment is roughly of the same order as our annual budget. Annual draw-down on the endowment is 4.5% or so, which means that the rest of the budget comes from tuition. If enrollment cratered (but didn't go entirely to zero) I suppose the administration could draw the shortfall from the endowment, but the board would pitch a fit, (and likely not approve that kind of move) and it's a sign that the college isn't going to be around long. The full sticker price (Tuition, Fees, Room and Board) just passed $40k/year last year, and it's having an impact on our ability to recruit students. Since so much of our budget comes from tuition, though, a shortfall of even 30 students from predicted numbers (out of a total student population of about 1400) can cause a serious budget crunch.

HarryHirsch 14y ago

"Why in the world are schools building new buildings? What is required in a business school classroom that is any different than the classroom for psychology or sociology or english or any other number of classes?" This question is easy to answer. In a time of declining public funds universities are trying to attract students, because tuition is about the only funding source left. Consequently, universities have to look appealing to students, and that means cushy dorms, spiffy libraries, the lot. Again: these are investments made from the general fund, and the university tries to recover these through increased tuition income. A classic market failure.

dantheman 14y ago
How is it a market failure? If anything it's a direct result of the ease at which students can get loans from the federal government.
- TruthElixirX 14y ago
  Everything people don't like are market failures. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5098258 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5098258 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5112837 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5112837 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4738488 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4738488 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=963251 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=963251 etc People keep calling things like city planning a market failure when it is full of regulation. Or healthcare when the U.S. government spends the most money on healthcare in the U.S. etc People throw the term around without knowing what it means. EDIT: Changed "is a market failure" to "are market failures".
  - sliverstorm 14y ago
    Oh yeah? Well your comment is a market failure. edit: I was being humorous.
- HarryHirsch 14y ago
  For starters, the gratuitous building and renovation does nothing to improve the quality of the degree, and certainly increases cost of tuition. The university isn't better off, and the students undoubtedly are worse off. If that isn't a market failure I wouldn't know what is.

atdrummond 14y ago

Typically when this happens another college or set of colleges will step up to take the students. This occurred in the case of Parsons College (whose campus is interestingly now the Maharishi University of Management) and Antioch College. More aggressively another college might take over the failed institution, as in the case of Compton College's failure in 1995. El Camino College not only accepted Compton's students but took over the facilities and faculty as well.

Claudus 14y ago

List of Colleges and Universities that have Closed, Merged, or Changed their Names http://www2.westminster-mo.edu/wc_users/homepages/staff/brownr/closedcollegeindex.htm http://www2.westminster-mo.edu/wc_users/homepages/staff/brow...

cafard 14y ago
I had a glance at the list, out of curiosity to see whether it included Case Western or Carnegie Mellon, both whose names reflect mergers. It did not. My point, though, is that mergers are not necessarily bad.

ballard 14y ago

Many top 100 universities are gleaming with dozens of new buildings: - Stanford tore down some donated admin buildings across from Schwab GSB that were not even 10 years old. A good portion of the med school is being gradually torn down and rebuilt near the hospital. (Will the roads ever be back to normal two-way traffic?) - Davis is littered with new buildings. - Harvard's 10 year construction schedule and $30,000,000,000.00+ under HMC. Probably a safer bet. Whether funds begged from donors and liquidated from students are utilized efficiently is another matter.

fawce 14y ago

I love this quote: "Going to a 4 year school is supposed to be the foundation from which you create a future, not the transaction that crushes everything you had hoped to do because you have more debt than you could possibly pay off in 10 years." I hosted a coursera meetup recently (http://www.meetup.com/Coursera/Boston-MA/829362/ http://www.meetup.com/Coursera/Boston-MA/829362/) and I met two students who were enrolled as part time off-campus students, taking the required minimum of classes at the university, and only "spending" those classes on requirements for their majors. All of their enrichment beyond the major was through MOOCs like Coursera. They told me it would take 6 years instead of four, but cost way less, and the preferred the MOOCs for the advanced material anyway. The last piece of the puzzle for them was finding internships, so they could lay the groundwork for a job upon graduating. Compared to my "find yourself" traipse through college, I was blown away by the steel-trap optimization these guys were applying to school. This economic downturn is breeding a whole generation of just-try-to-stop-me kids. It will be awesome 25 years from now when they are in charge.

rogem002 14y ago
> This economic downturn is breeding a whole generation of just-try-to-stop-me kids. I disagree that the economic downturn is the cause of these young peoples motivations. I would argue that due to a large amount of people achieving a high level of education, degrees are not a foot in the door. As a result personal investments such as attending networking events, doing work experience and building an online presence (Such as a quality GitHub account) will make it a lot easier to stand out from the herd.
javajosh 14y ago
Something that I dislike is when people use jargon without defining it. In this case, you used "MOOC" without definition. I didn't have to, but I looked it up and it means Massive Open Online Course. But I am annoyed that I had to look it up, and I'm giving you feedback that, in the future, you should define your terms.
- fawce 14y ago
  noted, thanks.

eksith 14y ago

The college I went to, nearly went out of business several times. I think now, attendance is rising as people who're out of work are going back to school. I have two jobs for now, but I'm thinking of quitting one and going back to school myself. Although it's awkward majoring in something that has nothing to do with your current line of work. What's really annyoing is that no one asks for your GPA (well at least, they didn't ask me) no matter where I applied; just the school and what courses I took. The more I see people who don't have a college degree getting things done, the more I feel college, while you do learn, is still a scam as far as jobs are concerned. And I'd rather learn for the sake of learning than learn just to get a job.

danielford 14y ago

One reason for new buildings on college campuses is that donors and the government are much more willing to give funds for that purpose than they are for salaries and benefits, which make up the bulk of most college budgets. So, I understand your frustration if you're angry about tuition rising while your college is erecting a new building every three years, but those are usually two separate piles of money, and there's not much your college can do to change that. That said, I still flinch every time I hear about a new building on our campus. I'm increasingly uncomfortable with the perception that colleges are living large while tuition rates climb, and I feel we should be more conspicuously frugal to combat it.

akadien 14y ago
This is quite true. For state schools, new buildings may be a "gift" from the political class to show the public their support for higher education. The stupid irony is those buildings typically don't come with operations and maintenance funds. At the same time, state appropriations are decreasing, putting the pinch on O&M and department support. The university (or publicly supported research institute) has a shiny new building in which they can put neither equipment nor people.
- jobu 14y ago
  It's too bad the donor money comes with so many strings attached. I wonder if the universities could get away with renting out some of the space in some of these buildings. That could at least cover some of the operating costs.
  - hkmurakami 14y ago
    It's a little ironic that I don't give to my alma mater's annual giving program precisely because there would be no strings attached and I'd have no idea what the administration would be spending the money on. I'm hoping that in the future I'll be able to give to the Engineering school in some meaningful way, or contribute to need based scholarships.
- snomad 14y ago

mitchty 14y ago

It's already starting. http://www.cva.edu/ http://www.cva.edu/ This college in St Paul last year just got some art accreditation that purportedly takes into account future financial viability. They just announced they can't remain financially solvent. So much for accreditation. At this point I think education will have a rather interesting next few years.

chaostheory 14y ago
I find it interesting that the art focused universities tend to be the ones going under first.
- littlegiantcap 14y ago
  It's interesting, but not particularly surprising. There's only so much that can be done with a fine arts degree. My girlfriend started off school as a Art history major because she loved art, but quickly changed once she realized there was essentially no future in the field unless you wanted to stay in academia.
- Crake 14y ago
  I mostly find it hilarious.
Crake 14y ago
Whoah, wasn't expecting to see CVA mentioned on HN. I know someone who decided to go there thinking they'd get paid $60,000 a year after graduating with their fine arts degree. Of course, I'm pretty sure they thought the same thing about their first undergraduate degree, too, which was a liberal arts degree from a similarly overpriced private college. Interesting that CVA wasn't accredited until 2011.

vincefutr23 14y ago

does anyone know where to look to find out how much debt a college has or what their financials are?

barake 14y ago
Any non-profit school has to file a form 990 with the IRS. Debt isn't always included in the filing, but Moody's usually includes a pretty accurate debt estimate along with credit ratings. Here is Stanford's 990 from 2011: http://bondholder-information.stanford.edu/pdf/Stanford_990_FY11.pdf http://bondholder-information.stanford.edu/pdf/Stanford_990_...

tstactplsignore 14y ago

As much as online degree may be the future, this is really out of touch. An online degree is still considered absolutely useless in academia, law, and medicine. Literally none of the students currently graduating in the top 5% of their classes will pursue an online degree as opposed to a traditional school.

cszy 14y ago
I think you missed the point of the article, which is that a number of schools simply do not have a sustainable business model and may not exist in 4 years unless they make major changes. Entry level classes in particular could be taught online, since the contents of many of the lectures never change. Likewise, if the credits transferred (unfortunately they frequently do not), a smart student would take those introductory classes from another institution. Schools pay professors huge salaries, tuition rises, meanwhile the quality of the education is the same. Of course, specialized degrees like law and medicine that require special training and licensing will always be around. But I'd expect many colleges to start hosting introductory classes entirely online to save money and probably dropping entire degree programs within the next several years.

jrs235 14y ago

In order to stay afloat how many larger universities will no longer allow transfer credits to prevent people going to cheaper schools for gen Eds?

protomyth 14y ago
That might run them into hot water with the accreditation folks.
Bramble 14y ago
Thankfully, there is regulation in this area for any school that gets state funding. If state-subsidized 4-years don't accept X number of transfer students from that state's community colleges every year, they can say goodbye to a chunk of their state funding. I can't speak for private universities, however.
Crake 14y ago
Oh, they'll accept them. They just won't count towards your major. They're sneaky like that.

justin_vanw 14y ago

I'm not saying this is what you should do, but it's probably what I would do if my college went under: Put on my resume that I graduated. From a school that was good, not the shitty one that went out of business. Actually, as someone who didn't graduate, I find that just not mentioning whether or not I graduated works fine. I just say 'University of X, 200X - 200X, Mathematics' on my resume. At this point in my career it doesn't matter, and back when it might have mattered almost nobody has the balls to say to you "I see that you attended University of X for n years, did you graduate?".

chaostheory 14y ago
> Put on my resume that I graduated. From a school that was good, not the shitty one that went out of business. Not counting the ethical part, I don't think this is very smart. All of the jobs that I have worked for do background checks on both your employment history and education.
- rjbond3rd 14y ago
  Plus, who wants to go to a job where they think you're somebody else? Being who you really are is the ultimate perk.
- patmcguire 14y ago
  Ethical issues aside (and I've never done any of this) - who checks your education? I've never had anyone ask for transcripts, and I've never seen a database of what they're supposed to look like. You could send in anything with a watermark-y looking thing and 99% of people would take it.
  - yukoncornelius 14y ago
    Many employers, especially those with a dedicated HR department, call the stated university verify degrees. This is especially true if a security clearance/background check is an employment requirement. I believe a Yahoo exec got caught by this last year.
  - 14y ago

rglover 14y ago

I graduated a little over a year ago and am now faced with at least $50k in debt (not accounting for interest). The school I attended was a state university and sadly, the education I received may have amounted to ~$20k. I say this because the majority of my instructors were recent hires out of the university's own graduate programs and (IMHO) lacked the experience to teach certain topics. The remaining cost I assume, was for "campus enhancements" like swapping out printed cafeteria menus with flat screen tv's (you must understand, this was an eco friendly initiative). Universities are a trap. The future they're selling kids is non-existent and they know it. Instead of uni-hopping, students should start picking up topics/trades of interest early, studying on nights and weekends leading up to their hs graduation. The obvious suggestion is learn code, but it could include a lot more. Don't send your kids to school. Be proactive and find out what they're interested in early and nurture it. It may rob them partially of a childhood, but at least their adulthood won't be a depressing, seemingly pointless adventure.

jmduke 14y ago
Have you ever considered that your advice to parents should have been applied to your college experience? A college education in which you go to class, study, and do assignments is not worth $50K. College lets you do a lot more than that, and it sounds like you robbed yourself of a great four years.
- redegg 14y ago
  > "College lets you do a lot more than that Let me guess, thats an euphemism for "getting laid".
- rglover 14y ago
  I do, but unfortunately, coming from Northwest Ohio and two parents who didn't attend college in its entirety themselves (my mom had an associates), the need to groom me early (assuming, here) wasn't immediately apparent. Moreover, sitting in a tiny box, having sex, getting loaded (proof: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WuJ60dAHyc4 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WuJ60dAHyc4 -- a party house my roommates and I ran) and joining campus orgs (I ran the campus radio station as the General Manager my Sophomore year and was an active member throughout my stint at the school -- I was even awarded a years worth of paid tuition) was still not worth the skull crushing debt I now have to dig through. If I skipped college, I still would have gotten laid, smoked pot, and learned how to program. Edit: I taught myself how to program in my spare time. My degree is in broadcast management.

timr 14y ago

I was honestly expecting a different sort of rant from Mark Cuban. It's nice to see someone taking on the business of college, without dismissing the need for a college education. Bravo to someone who gets it. That said, while I agree with his premise, I'll admit to being a little sad about the consequences: people in power rarely talk about it, but the kids who go to the "name schools" have a huge career advantage over the kids who go to Podunk University. I should know -- I went to a tiny school, and somehow managed to end up in silicon valley, where the leaders and power brokers are (wait for it)...almost exclusively graduates of the Ivy League. And this isn't the only industry where that's true. It's disheartening. A hard-working, smart graduate from Oklahoma State with a degree in computer science degree will be at a substantial disadvantage when it comes to getting the best jobs -- the big boys (Google, Facebook, etc.) might send a recruiter to the campus career fair once a year, but they aren't hosting hackathons, sponsoring scholarships, or setting up permanent shop in the career center, like they'll do for Stanford or Berkeley or MIT. And when it comes time to reach for the management fast-track, those Ivy contacts go a long way. So, who wins when the ability to pay for college out-of-pocket determines the economic winners and losers? Not the poor. We're rapidly heading to a country with a rigid and unyielding class structure, thanks to the brutal realities of unfettered market capitalism.

hkmurakami 14y ago
Most of the "elite" schools offer fairly generous need based aid. Yes, there are problems like some middle class families getting caught in the gaps -- but the financial divide is a bigger problem in the younger years of a student, all the way from elementary school to high school, where the family's financial means makes a massive difference in the extra attention, extracurricular pursuits, and the quality of instruction at the school. I can only speak for Silicon Valley where I grew up, but there's a strong correlation between a school's quality and the income level of the school district. Your family's financial status impacts where you live, which impacts the quality of your education, which in turn deeply affects your odds of being accepted to an "elite" school in the first place.
- timr 14y ago
  "Most of the "elite" schools offer fairly generous need based aid. Yes, there are problems like some middle class families getting caught in the gaps." That's a huge problem. The "need" calculation takes into account things like your parents' savings for retirement, as if they're going to cash out their 401k to put you through school. The effect is to lock out the vast majority of students whose parents were responsible, but not rich. "but there's a strong correlation between a school's quality and the income level of the school district." Absolutely. That's probably the biggest source of institutionalized classism (and racism) in our society.

yukoncornelius 14y ago

A lot of misinformation in these comments centers around the fact that many universities constructed new buildings from 2008-2012 as construction costs were low due to the high levels of under and unemployed in the construction sector. This factor combined with poor expected returns to their endowments made it appear wise to make capital investments. Whether this was a good or bad idea won't be realized for many years.

rooker 14y ago

I was just thinking about this recently. Our generation is so fucked. Tuition rising, fewer jobs, recession, social security not going to be there when we get older, the first true tax increase for every American (payroll tax, we all felt it to the tune of 2% on our first paycheck of January) since the mid-90s, and now the retiring generation is saying "Welp! It's up to you to fix it! Good luck!" Assholes.

rdl 14y ago

I would still generally be comfortable with 250k in debt to get a Stanford or Harvard degree, provided I wanted to work in a field where that credential would be a huge benefit. The better deal is probably to ROTC, though. Especially since the military is downsizing, you could comfortably spend your service commitment doing interesting stuff and then leave debt free and with great experience. USAF or USN, obviously. It also seems like an excellent way to do medical school if that is your goal, too.