5 ms·

You may be right about the industry as a whole, but I'm betting you're wrong about this particular instance based on what I know about PG and YC. When I was re

by rpm4321 14y ago

You may be right about the industry as a whole, but I'm betting you're wrong about this particular instance based on what I know about PG and YC. When I was reading the original TC article, I was thinking that there is actually an incredible opportunity here to create a legitimate ad network that would allow desktop developers to monetize similarly to how it's done on the web - to basically become the DoubleClick of the desktop world. Why should ad supported desktop apps be any different than ad supported mobile or web apps? Edit: These downvotes are pretty surprising, I didn't realize I was even being controversial. Can someone explain why creating a legitimate, privacy-respecting ad platform which allows desktop developers to monetize their applications in a manner that's almost exactly the same as ad supported web and mobile apps is that awful? I'm not even saying that's necessarily what they're up to, I can just see where there's a tremendous opportunity to try and clean up the industry, and how, based on the people involved, the author and the commenter above could very easily be jumping to the wrong conclusions.

api 14y ago
Desktop apps with built-in ads are okay. I've used a few here and there. I've also seen shareware model software that has ads that can be turned off by registering. That's fine too. In this case the ads are part of the application. They live within it. Uninstall the app, and the ads are gone. Such ads also tend not to invade users' privacy outside the app. They might send stuff about what you do in the app, but if you don't like it you can uninstall the app. One of the key words here is "toolbar." It's in the same class as "HIV," "ebola," "herpes simplex virus," etc. Saying you're bundling third-party adware such as toolbars and "browser helpers" and similar is like saying you're purposefully giving someone a disease. IT professionals managing Windows networks spend god-awful amounts of time removing such junk from Windows PCs. Not only do things like this invade privacy, they often slow down and break peoples' computers.
- Tyrannosaurs 14y ago
  I don't disagree with your overall point but "toolbar" is not in the same class as "HIV". A little perspective please.
  - jiggy2011 14y ago
    The analogy is apt enough. There's something you want whether it be 100 free wallpapers or a blowjob. Providing you with such a thing required a certain level of "access" which can be used for evil.
    - bdcravens 14y ago
      Still no. One thing destroys your life (or significantly alters it), the other installs some crap on your computer. You can always format and reinstall a computer.
      - jiggy2011 14y ago
        I think that difference is a given.
  - TillE 14y ago
    It's humor via hyperbole. Compare to the common hacker usage of "evil".
    - Tyrannosaurs 14y ago
      Maybe it's just me but this needs to be a lot funnier to pull out that sort of metaphor. As it is it's just slightly bad taste.
chii 14y ago
i agree - i wouldn't mind a text ad next to my unarchiving tool (which i don't use all that often so as to not justify payuing for one). But they need to be unobtrusive like google's text ads.
- SyneRyder 14y ago
  But therein lies the problem: a tool that you don't use often (hence a low number of ad impressions), and an unobtrusive ad that you might not even see, let alone click. That's unlikely to earn enough money to be worth it. The developer either has to drop the advertising revenue model and try another, or crank the ad model to questionable ethics. Sadly, some developers opt to do the latter.
shadowmint 14y ago
Because your browser is incredibly carefully sandboxed, and your desktop is not. Worse yet, even the low level of sandboxing that desktops posses are almost always defeated by installers: "This installer requires administrator privileges to run" ... aka. yes, you will take our spyware-crapware-rubbish, and you'll love it, or you wont use our app. Capish? You don't get that with websites. That's why it's ok. (Incidentally, this is the same reason why its not ok on mobile platforms, where your options of permission are to read your contacts and make phone calls and 'services that cost money' or no, you can't play this game of Cat Pong your friends are talking about...)
gizmo 14y ago
They advertise that they convert 60-85% of their installs. When that percentage of users installs crapware they're clearly being tricked into it. So it doesn't look like this is a trustworthy company at all.
neumann_alfred 14y ago
"Can someone explain why creating a legitimate, privacy-respecting ad platform which allows desktop developers to monetize their applications in a manner that's almost exactly the same as ad supported web and mobile apps is that awful?" Tracking IP and even MAC addresses? Hello? Spyware is spyware. Also: ads are ads. If your product does nothing respectable (as opposed to selling eyeballs to advertisers under false pretenses) that is worth paying for it to anyone, that's bad luck. It doesn't justify deliberately and systematically messing with the rational decision making process of people, and that others are already doing that is no justification either, nor that they have been doing it for so long.
- kaeawc 14y ago
  The same level of tracking is done on the web, constantly. And you don't need to give any sort of permission for it. What is different is gaining root/Administrator access on the machine in order to ensure the tracking is done vs a client side browser script asking if it can run. And then using that access to install a rootkit or mess with the registry to ensure tracking software starts on reboot, etc. That is what is annoying.
oxide 14y ago
You can downvote people? how?
- BlackJack 14y ago
  You need 500+ karma. After that, a downvote arrow appears right under the upvote arrow.
product50 14y ago
Goto their site: http://www.installmonetizer.com/AT_advertisers.php http://www.installmonetizer.com/AT_advertisers.php and checkout their advertising partners. Babylon and JackpotRewards are hardly the kind of "advertisers" to get excited about. Babylon has several toolbar partnerships (I have worked on these) and I can imagine how their partnership with Install Monetizer will just lead to another toolbar offer being presented to the users during install time. Here, you are coming off as a sycophant who is blindly supporting PG and YC without checking your facts which could be the reason for your downvotes.

by rpm4321 14y ago

api 14y ago

Desktop apps with built-in ads are okay. I've used a few here and there. I've also seen shareware model software that has ads that can be turned off by registering. That's fine too. In this case the ads are part of the application. They live within it. Uninstall the app, and the ads are gone. Such ads also tend not to invade users' privacy outside the app. They might send stuff about what you do in the app, but if you don't like it you can uninstall the app. One of the key words here is "toolbar." It's in the same class as "HIV," "ebola," "herpes simplex virus," etc. Saying you're bundling third-party adware such as toolbars and "browser helpers" and similar is like saying you're purposefully giving someone a disease. IT professionals managing Windows networks spend god-awful amounts of time removing such junk from Windows PCs. Not only do things like this invade privacy, they often slow down and break peoples' computers.

Tyrannosaurs 14y ago
I don't disagree with your overall point but "toolbar" is not in the same class as "HIV". A little perspective please.
- jiggy2011 14y ago
  The analogy is apt enough. There's something you want whether it be 100 free wallpapers or a blowjob. Providing you with such a thing required a certain level of "access" which can be used for evil.
  - bdcravens 14y ago
    Still no. One thing destroys your life (or significantly alters it), the other installs some crap on your computer. You can always format and reinstall a computer.
    - jiggy2011 14y ago
      I think that difference is a given.
- TillE 14y ago
  It's humor via hyperbole. Compare to the common hacker usage of "evil".
  - Tyrannosaurs 14y ago
    Maybe it's just me but this needs to be a lot funnier to pull out that sort of metaphor. As it is it's just slightly bad taste.

chii 14y ago

i agree - i wouldn't mind a text ad next to my unarchiving tool (which i don't use all that often so as to not justify payuing for one). But they need to be unobtrusive like google's text ads.

SyneRyder 14y ago
But therein lies the problem: a tool that you don't use often (hence a low number of ad impressions), and an unobtrusive ad that you might not even see, let alone click. That's unlikely to earn enough money to be worth it. The developer either has to drop the advertising revenue model and try another, or crank the ad model to questionable ethics. Sadly, some developers opt to do the latter.

shadowmint 14y ago

Because your browser is incredibly carefully sandboxed, and your desktop is not. Worse yet, even the low level of sandboxing that desktops posses are almost always defeated by installers: "This installer requires administrator privileges to run" ... aka. yes, you will take our spyware-crapware-rubbish, and you'll love it, or you wont use our app. Capish? You don't get that with websites. That's why it's ok. (Incidentally, this is the same reason why its not ok on mobile platforms, where your options of permission are to read your contacts and make phone calls and 'services that cost money' or no, you can't play this game of Cat Pong your friends are talking about...)

gizmo 14y ago

They advertise that they convert 60-85% of their installs. When that percentage of users installs crapware they're clearly being tricked into it. So it doesn't look like this is a trustworthy company at all.

neumann_alfred 14y ago

"Can someone explain why creating a legitimate, privacy-respecting ad platform which allows desktop developers to monetize their applications in a manner that's almost exactly the same as ad supported web and mobile apps is that awful?" Tracking IP and even MAC addresses? Hello? Spyware is spyware. Also: ads are ads. If your product does nothing respectable (as opposed to selling eyeballs to advertisers under false pretenses) that is worth paying for it to anyone, that's bad luck. It doesn't justify deliberately and systematically messing with the rational decision making process of people, and that others are already doing that is no justification either, nor that they have been doing it for so long.

kaeawc 14y ago
The same level of tracking is done on the web, constantly. And you don't need to give any sort of permission for it. What is different is gaining root/Administrator access on the machine in order to ensure the tracking is done vs a client side browser script asking if it can run. And then using that access to install a rootkit or mess with the registry to ensure tracking software starts on reboot, etc. That is what is annoying.

oxide 14y ago

You can downvote people? how?

BlackJack 14y ago
You need 500+ karma. After that, a downvote arrow appears right under the upvote arrow.

product50 14y ago

Goto their site: http://www.installmonetizer.com/AT_advertisers.php http://www.installmonetizer.com/AT_advertisers.php and checkout their advertising partners. Babylon and JackpotRewards are hardly the kind of "advertisers" to get excited about. Babylon has several toolbar partnerships (I have worked on these) and I can imagine how their partnership with Install Monetizer will just lead to another toolbar offer being presented to the users during install time. Here, you are coming off as a sycophant who is blindly supporting PG and YC without checking your facts which could be the reason for your downvotes.