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The crapware situation on Windows is horrible. I'm a Mac/Linux user but from time to time I have to power up my Windows VM. A few days ago I wanted to install

The crapware situation on Windows is horrible. I'm a Mac/Linux user but from time to time I have to power up my Windows VM. A few days ago I wanted to install the Partition Magic trial on my Win XP VM. Having left Windows around 2005 I figured that typing "Partition Magic Win XP download" in Google would be helpful. I got a handful of "reputable" download sources like CNet and the like. I went there and was bombarded by 20 (dramatization) different download buttons. I clicked the one that seemed most promising and somehow ended with a new Zip-Archiver installed ... So I went back and found the Partition Magic installer. It was an installer with 'added value' that asked me three times to install some toolbar crap. I ended up with one of those toolbars installed because unchecking the box and clicking on 'next' obviously is not enough. You have to click the decline button instead of next. Now I would consider myself computer literate and yet still I didn't manage to install a simple utility without littering my system with crapware. I can only imagine what hell the internet must be like to inexperienced (read: normal people) Windows users.

mylittlepony 14y ago
I'll take this chance to recommend the following linux distributions to those non-sysadmins who are wondering which one they can try out: - Fedora 17 with Gnome. Out of the box it offers all kinds of installation options, like the one I always wanted and only found in Fedora (in my words): "Use all this but only this free space, and also encrypt it". The only downside is that out of the box it lacks some things every desktop user will want, like media codecs, but can be installed very easily. There are also tons of addons for Gnome that you will want to improve the UI (eg: get back the minimize button -.-), you can get them at extensions.gnome.org. - Ubuntu 12.04 server edition. I chose server edition because it has an option for disk encryption, but it will use the entire disk, which sucks unless you have two disks like I do. Then you install 'ubuntu-desktop' and you are done. There is also a problem with both server and desktop edition when installing into some HDD's, they fail to align correctly for different block sizes. Other than that, this is the perfect distro for me. It is LTS so it will be supported for 5 years, and I hope that by that time they have rolled back the crap that they added to 12.10. - Fedora 18. It should be released today, let's see what they got.
- api 14y ago
  Been using Fedora 17 for a while at work. Used to hate RPM-based distros, but I took another look about a year ago. It's actually pretty nice. I also don't hate Gnome 3. It's a bit immature, but it's pretty and fairly easy to use and stable.
- bjustin 14y ago
  If you can get used to Unity in a week or two, I recommend Ubuntu. Fedora has always worked fine for me, but Ubuntu tends to have fewer rough edges.
  - drivebyacct2 14y ago
    I use Ubuntu and I can't stand unity. It's far too easy to do `sudo apt-get install gnome-shell` and do `sudo add-apt-repository ppa:gwendal-lebihan-dev/cinnamon-stable; sudo apt-get update; sudo apt-get install cinammon` and still enjoy the Ubuntu base (community, font patches, etc). I've bounced around between many DEs lately. Elementary is really great, especially when I was just coming from OS X, but I've been shocked at how nice Cinnamon is.
    - mylittlepony 14y ago
      I don't know why people hate it, I love it. It gives me so much more visual space. For example, with Unity I was able to start using Virtualbox VM's maximized instead of full screen, which is so much more comfortable. The host has the sidebar hidden (shows on hover), and the guest has it always visible (as hover wouldn't work for a guest). It really makes a great use of the visual space.
      - jarek 14y ago
        The alt-tab behaviour is borderline unworkable for anyone who's used Windows or Linux windows managers before 2011 and is trying to work with a case like several terminal windows and a browser window. My GNOME 2/XFCE/MATE setup has one bar on top of the screen and that's it, I'm finding it is pretty good for screen space even on widescreen laptops.
archangel_one 14y ago
Yes, I've run afoul of the "download button" adverts before. I'm not surprised to see them on torrent sites etc, but it amazes me that some supposedly reputable download sites would allow such things.
- jiggy2011 14y ago
  Good rule of thumb is to look for the smallest "Download" link on the page.
  - vermontdevil 14y ago
    Won't be long before this rule of thumb goes out of the window. They'll probably make a one by one pixel link that links to the clean download file.
    - philbarr 14y ago
      Maybe we could write a chrome/firefox plugin that highlights downloads that are from the same domain? Or perhaps hides non-domain ones? Would that clean up most of these issues? You'd probably have to have a button to toggle this on and off.
      - jiggy2011 14y ago
        Most of these freeware download sites tend to use mirror sites for the actual downloads. The download link for the actual product will often really be a redirect to a page with a "your download will start in 5 seconds" and then some JS triggers the actual download. Even the legit download will usually offer you toolbars and crap anyway.
        philbarr 14y ago
        We could add the most common mirror sites as exceptions, you could add your own, and of course you can always toggle it on and off? I think that may make it useful enough...
brudgers 14y ago
"A few days ago I wanted to install the Partition Magic trial on my Win XP VM" Windows XP is more than a decade old. The latest release, nearly five. To generalize about the current state of Windows based upon recent experience with Windows XP is either ignorant, disingenuous, or blindly biased.
- to3m 14y ago
  The results of a google search are somewhat independent of OS. I've found exactly the same problem myself, when searching for Windows downloads in Mac OS X, and get similar spammy results in Windows XP, Windows 7 and Windows 8.
  - brudgers 14y ago
    The quality of search results provided by Google are valid as basis for judging Google. A paranoid individual might even see an alignment between Google's web services business model and search results which facilitate the installation crapware upon the most popular desktop operating system particularly when that crapware generally provides tracking information useful for targeted advertising. Of course, another stripe of deluded individual might blame Microsoft for the abundance of crapware on the internet.
- kybernetyk 14y ago
  I doubt the installer/websites would have behaved much different if I have had used Windows 7 or 8.
  - brudgers 14y ago
    Your doubt is unfounded. http://www.symantec.com/connect/forums/partition-magic-windows-7-64-bit http://www.symantec.com/connect/forums/partition-magic-windo... Your research, poor. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PartitionMagic http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PartitionMagic And your characterization of the Windows ecosystem based upon your experience either ignorant, disingenuous, or blindly biased. http://windows.microsoft.com/en-US/windows-8/apps http://windows.microsoft.com/en-US/windows-8/apps
nwh 14y ago
My experience recently was similar. A simple open source installer landed me a like of toolbars, preformance tools, and other assorted crapware. Incredibly obnoxious, and instantly removed any respect I had for the developer.
- finnw 14y ago
  Are you sure it was the original developer that inserted the crapware?
  - nwh 14y ago
    It would seem so. At least, it wasn't one of those repackaged installers that some download sites offer.
jiggy2011 14y ago
Agreed, a lot of the reasons that non technical users dislike Windows seem to be the result of these. It really takes control out of the users hands. We can see the origins of this becoming a problem on Ubuntu with Canonical adding stuff like the Amazon search and seemingly having no issue with bundleware as a means of monetisation. On the other hand I'm surprised this isn't more of an issue on the Mac, since Mac (especially older versions) will allow installation of software from random sources which could include bundleware. Is there something about OS X that makes bundleware more difficult to develop or is it just easier to monetise an OS X app without bundleware?
- Someone 14y ago
  IMO, some of it is due to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Broken_windows_theory http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Broken_windows_theory. One developer starts with an advert, somebody else has two, a third developer gets paid to sneak in some toolbar, the first notices "hey, I can make money that way, too", and the ball gets rolling. Now, the question is why this has not happened for Mac Software, at least not on that scale. Gruber (2004) claims it is due to zero tolerance (http://daringfireball.net/2004/06/broken_windows http://daringfireball.net/2004/06/broken_windows). I think that is partly true, and it sort-of started with the original PC. Installing a DOS program such as Lotus123 was a nightmare, where people had to answer such question as "number of lines on a page" and "how does your printer do bold" to configure a printer. Installing hardware, similarly, was a nightmare (what IRQ should we use? Do you have extended or expanded memory? etc).
  - jiggy2011 14y ago
    Interesting analogy, it's certainly true that there is some sense of "community" for both Linux and Mac users in that people will generally choose these platforms because they have certain beliefs about how things should work and won't tolerate things that fall outside of this. Windows on the other hand has no community and is kind of an multi-cultural wasteland where everything goes thus will tolerate more BS. Not sure I agree with Gruber's conclusion though, if Mac had a large uptake in market share then that community would become diluted. As it stands the random Grandma that uses a Mac without understanding computers gets a sort of herd immunity because there is a larger percentage of more nerdy and vocal users who won't tolerate BS. If grandmas become the overwhelming majority of Mac users they lose some of that because the crapware vendors know that grandma is very unlikely to read the blogposts condemning their software.
simias 14y ago
Yeah, I share the same experience: I'm mostly a linux user who had to setup a windows machine not long ago. Even when installing legit software from what appeared to be legit sources I had to be very careful at every step in order to avoid all the spyware/toolbars/dubious extensions bundled with the installers. The worst offender was some crapware installer that wanted you to check the components you didn't wan't installed. I almost got tricked. Next thing I'm sure they'll ask you "Are you not sure you don't want those components not installed?" [Yes] [Ok]. I may be wrong but I believe even the official Oracle Java updater asks to install some toolbar (Ask or yahoo I think? Or maybe just set the homepage? I forgot). Good thing I don't think very highly of Oracle or I might have been disappointed. Edit: I remembered correctly: https://forums.oracle.com/forums/thread.jspa?messageID=10723488 https://forums.oracle.com/forums/thread.jspa?messageID=10723...
- dhimes 14y ago
  I recall that the java yahoo toolbar has been there since Sun.
  - philbarr 14y ago
    When I was mainly just a Java developer I always found that kind of embarrassing.
mbetter 14y ago
CNet hasn't been a reputable download source for some time.
luser001 14y ago
Do you have Adblock Plus installed? It frequently removes the illegitimate download links since it (rightly) classifies many of them as ads.

mylittlepony 14y ago

I'll take this chance to recommend the following linux distributions to those non-sysadmins who are wondering which one they can try out: - Fedora 17 with Gnome. Out of the box it offers all kinds of installation options, like the one I always wanted and only found in Fedora (in my words): "Use all this but only this free space, and also encrypt it". The only downside is that out of the box it lacks some things every desktop user will want, like media codecs, but can be installed very easily. There are also tons of addons for Gnome that you will want to improve the UI (eg: get back the minimize button -.-), you can get them at extensions.gnome.org. - Ubuntu 12.04 server edition. I chose server edition because it has an option for disk encryption, but it will use the entire disk, which sucks unless you have two disks like I do. Then you install 'ubuntu-desktop' and you are done. There is also a problem with both server and desktop edition when installing into some HDD's, they fail to align correctly for different block sizes. Other than that, this is the perfect distro for me. It is LTS so it will be supported for 5 years, and I hope that by that time they have rolled back the crap that they added to 12.10. - Fedora 18. It should be released today, let's see what they got.

api 14y ago
Been using Fedora 17 for a while at work. Used to hate RPM-based distros, but I took another look about a year ago. It's actually pretty nice. I also don't hate Gnome 3. It's a bit immature, but it's pretty and fairly easy to use and stable.
bjustin 14y ago
If you can get used to Unity in a week or two, I recommend Ubuntu. Fedora has always worked fine for me, but Ubuntu tends to have fewer rough edges.
- drivebyacct2 14y ago
  I use Ubuntu and I can't stand unity. It's far too easy to do `sudo apt-get install gnome-shell` and do `sudo add-apt-repository ppa:gwendal-lebihan-dev/cinnamon-stable; sudo apt-get update; sudo apt-get install cinammon` and still enjoy the Ubuntu base (community, font patches, etc). I've bounced around between many DEs lately. Elementary is really great, especially when I was just coming from OS X, but I've been shocked at how nice Cinnamon is.
  - mylittlepony 14y ago
    I don't know why people hate it, I love it. It gives me so much more visual space. For example, with Unity I was able to start using Virtualbox VM's maximized instead of full screen, which is so much more comfortable. The host has the sidebar hidden (shows on hover), and the guest has it always visible (as hover wouldn't work for a guest). It really makes a great use of the visual space.
    - jarek 14y ago
      The alt-tab behaviour is borderline unworkable for anyone who's used Windows or Linux windows managers before 2011 and is trying to work with a case like several terminal windows and a browser window. My GNOME 2/XFCE/MATE setup has one bar on top of the screen and that's it, I'm finding it is pretty good for screen space even on widescreen laptops.

archangel_one 14y ago

Yes, I've run afoul of the "download button" adverts before. I'm not surprised to see them on torrent sites etc, but it amazes me that some supposedly reputable download sites would allow such things.

jiggy2011 14y ago
Good rule of thumb is to look for the smallest "Download" link on the page.
- vermontdevil 14y ago
  Won't be long before this rule of thumb goes out of the window. They'll probably make a one by one pixel link that links to the clean download file.
  - philbarr 14y ago
    Maybe we could write a chrome/firefox plugin that highlights downloads that are from the same domain? Or perhaps hides non-domain ones? Would that clean up most of these issues? You'd probably have to have a button to toggle this on and off.
    - jiggy2011 14y ago
      Most of these freeware download sites tend to use mirror sites for the actual downloads. The download link for the actual product will often really be a redirect to a page with a "your download will start in 5 seconds" and then some JS triggers the actual download. Even the legit download will usually offer you toolbars and crap anyway.
      - philbarr 14y ago
        We could add the most common mirror sites as exceptions, you could add your own, and of course you can always toggle it on and off? I think that may make it useful enough...

brudgers 14y ago

"A few days ago I wanted to install the Partition Magic trial on my Win XP VM" Windows XP is more than a decade old. The latest release, nearly five. To generalize about the current state of Windows based upon recent experience with Windows XP is either ignorant, disingenuous, or blindly biased.

to3m 14y ago
The results of a google search are somewhat independent of OS. I've found exactly the same problem myself, when searching for Windows downloads in Mac OS X, and get similar spammy results in Windows XP, Windows 7 and Windows 8.
- brudgers 14y ago
  The quality of search results provided by Google are valid as basis for judging Google. A paranoid individual might even see an alignment between Google's web services business model and search results which facilitate the installation crapware upon the most popular desktop operating system particularly when that crapware generally provides tracking information useful for targeted advertising. Of course, another stripe of deluded individual might blame Microsoft for the abundance of crapware on the internet.
kybernetyk 14y ago
I doubt the installer/websites would have behaved much different if I have had used Windows 7 or 8.
- brudgers 14y ago
  Your doubt is unfounded. http://www.symantec.com/connect/forums/partition-magic-windows-7-64-bit http://www.symantec.com/connect/forums/partition-magic-windo... Your research, poor. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PartitionMagic http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PartitionMagic And your characterization of the Windows ecosystem based upon your experience either ignorant, disingenuous, or blindly biased. http://windows.microsoft.com/en-US/windows-8/apps http://windows.microsoft.com/en-US/windows-8/apps

nwh 14y ago

My experience recently was similar. A simple open source installer landed me a like of toolbars, preformance tools, and other assorted crapware. Incredibly obnoxious, and instantly removed any respect I had for the developer.

finnw 14y ago
Are you sure it was the original developer that inserted the crapware?
- nwh 14y ago
  It would seem so. At least, it wasn't one of those repackaged installers that some download sites offer.

jiggy2011 14y ago

Agreed, a lot of the reasons that non technical users dislike Windows seem to be the result of these. It really takes control out of the users hands. We can see the origins of this becoming a problem on Ubuntu with Canonical adding stuff like the Amazon search and seemingly having no issue with bundleware as a means of monetisation. On the other hand I'm surprised this isn't more of an issue on the Mac, since Mac (especially older versions) will allow installation of software from random sources which could include bundleware. Is there something about OS X that makes bundleware more difficult to develop or is it just easier to monetise an OS X app without bundleware?

Someone 14y ago
IMO, some of it is due to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Broken_windows_theory http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Broken_windows_theory. One developer starts with an advert, somebody else has two, a third developer gets paid to sneak in some toolbar, the first notices "hey, I can make money that way, too", and the ball gets rolling. Now, the question is why this has not happened for Mac Software, at least not on that scale. Gruber (2004) claims it is due to zero tolerance (http://daringfireball.net/2004/06/broken_windows http://daringfireball.net/2004/06/broken_windows). I think that is partly true, and it sort-of started with the original PC. Installing a DOS program such as Lotus123 was a nightmare, where people had to answer such question as "number of lines on a page" and "how does your printer do bold" to configure a printer. Installing hardware, similarly, was a nightmare (what IRQ should we use? Do you have extended or expanded memory? etc).
- jiggy2011 14y ago
  Interesting analogy, it's certainly true that there is some sense of "community" for both Linux and Mac users in that people will generally choose these platforms because they have certain beliefs about how things should work and won't tolerate things that fall outside of this. Windows on the other hand has no community and is kind of an multi-cultural wasteland where everything goes thus will tolerate more BS. Not sure I agree with Gruber's conclusion though, if Mac had a large uptake in market share then that community would become diluted. As it stands the random Grandma that uses a Mac without understanding computers gets a sort of herd immunity because there is a larger percentage of more nerdy and vocal users who won't tolerate BS. If grandmas become the overwhelming majority of Mac users they lose some of that because the crapware vendors know that grandma is very unlikely to read the blogposts condemning their software.

simias 14y ago

Yeah, I share the same experience: I'm mostly a linux user who had to setup a windows machine not long ago. Even when installing legit software from what appeared to be legit sources I had to be very careful at every step in order to avoid all the spyware/toolbars/dubious extensions bundled with the installers. The worst offender was some crapware installer that wanted you to check the components you didn't wan't installed. I almost got tricked. Next thing I'm sure they'll ask you "Are you not sure you don't want those components not installed?" [Yes] [Ok]. I may be wrong but I believe even the official Oracle Java updater asks to install some toolbar (Ask or yahoo I think? Or maybe just set the homepage? I forgot). Good thing I don't think very highly of Oracle or I might have been disappointed. Edit: I remembered correctly: https://forums.oracle.com/forums/thread.jspa?messageID=10723488 https://forums.oracle.com/forums/thread.jspa?messageID=10723...

dhimes 14y ago
I recall that the java yahoo toolbar has been there since Sun.
- philbarr 14y ago
  When I was mainly just a Java developer I always found that kind of embarrassing.

mbetter 14y ago

CNet hasn't been a reputable download source for some time.

luser001 14y ago

Do you have Adblock Plus installed? It frequently removes the illegitimate download links since it (rightly) classifies many of them as ads.