19 ms·

Proposition HN: I will pay $8000 for you to build your side-project/MVP

• hmexx 14y ago
  Pre-emptive FAQ: Isn't this a horrible deal? Incubators typically inject more money for far less equity! I earn $10K a month, I could easily save up $8K in a few months, and do this myself for 100% equity. True. If you can get into YCombinator, for example , you should obviously go for it. I can't compete with that. If you're earning $150K+, or you've already been working on your side-project for a year, this may not be for you. On the other hand, if you're just getting started and you need a little push, both financially and emotionally, this could be right up your alley. Who the hell are you? Why would I work with you? I'm also a techie. Have had one moderately successful venture so far, which has given me a comfortable life (but not quite retirement amount). I want to reduce my coding time and instead help people get their ideas to market using my resources. Hopefully we can build a few success stories along the way. You can find out more during our first Skype chat! Will you fund everyone and every thing? No. I'll still need to like your idea, and feel that a positive long-term return is possible. But my belief in Premise 1, combined with the favorable structure of the proposition, means I don't need to be that picky. I'll also need you to commit to working on the MVP full-time until it's done. Evenings + Weekend work is something this structure is actively aiming to avoid. Sign up, ship it, then go back to earning a steady income.
  • hmexx 14y ago
    If interested, drop me a line at hnproject2013@gmail.com If you have questions or HN-style critic on the structure/proposition, write below and help me build proposition version 1.1!
    • traxtech 14y ago
      US resident only / Europe / rest of the world ? Payment terms ? (upfront / milestones / finished) Future company as a delaware C/S-corp ?
      • hmexx 14y ago
        Still need to iron out the details but... World. Upfront will be small (possibly nil) to prevent time-wasters. We can agree milestones based on nature of project. Once code is flowing onto a shared repository for a couple days, I'll feel comfortable starting the money drip. C/S corp in Delaware sounds reasonable. A yet to be drafted, founder's agreement to be signed at project start also to protect both parties.
        • deleted 14y ago
          [deleted]
        • traxtech 14y ago
          Good. I still have 3-6 months of work to do for a customer, but after I'll get back to you if you still pursue this aventure.
        • coecoventures 14y ago
          What about terms? Would your ownership be participating preferred? preferred? common? In other words, would all founders be diluted equally?
        • aangjie 14y ago
          World, great... i have been having this idea running through my head for some time, but need to iron it out a little and do some research .. Am on a 3-6 month project here, will contact you after.
• fluorid 14y ago
  Great proposal. I just upvoted it. Don't know if the typical freelancer dev will jump on it and has enough will power but I totally agree on premise 1,2 and 3, so true. Great post!
• shawndumas 14y ago
  Why should someone do this instead of a KickStarter?
  • lighthazard 14y ago
    Kickstarter doesn't accept just any project. They're more crowd oriented whereas a regular investor would look more for business potential than anything else.
    • klibertp 14y ago
      To be fair the OP won't pick just any project either... But it seems like he's thinking about just one project and of his personal involvement in it - so it's definitely very different than kickstarter.
  • drelihan 14y ago
    Web Apps aren't allowed on Kickstarter per their guidelines http://www.kickstarter.com/help/guidelines http://www.kickstarter.com/help/guidelines "As in all categories, Kickstarter is for projects that can be completed, not things that require maintenance to exist. This means no e-commerce sites, web businesses, or social networking sites. (Yes, this means Kickstarter wouldn’t be allowed on Kickstarter. Funny, but true.)"
• tarr11 14y ago
  I can't seem to see any biography about you on your HN profile or this post. Are you planning on doing this anonymously?
  • hmexx 14y ago
    No, but I prefer sharing my identity on a 1-on-1 basis during project discussions, rather than put it in the proposition.
    • brudgers 14y ago
      [thread flagged] To me, this is a red flag. The offer is set before the entire HN community. It has substantial financial and legal implications. You are competing with YC. Your track record is relevant to the ranking of this thread on HN.
      • hmexx 14y ago
        Fair enough. I can see where you are coming from, although even if you found out my real identity (which might be possible if you look carefully enough through my history of comments), you would not find anything that would substantially strengthen the proposition. I'm no one special... just a techie with some moderate success who wants to help launch some cool new products.
        • drp4929 14y ago
          Until you reveal your identity, you're wasting everyone's time.
          • thom 14y ago
            He's really only wasting about 30 seconds of it, though, as comments and Google are indeed the only two things required. He appears to be exactly what he says he is.
          • duked 14y ago
• rohamg 14y ago
  Cool proposition but because of your onerous terms you are self selecting for bottom barrel. In startups (where there is a power law distribution of outcomes) it would be much preferable to offer more generous terms and simply be more picky selecting for founder competence. Also- need to figure out statute of limitations: who decides when one MVP stops and another begins? What if a freelancer takes your money hacks up a bunch of MVPs and learns enough to do the full swing by themselves?
• nkohari 14y ago
  Wow. I'd rather go on fucking Shark Tank. If someone is willing to take $5,000 to do the heavy lifting up front (therein taking most of the risk) for only 50% equity, their idea is either terrible or they aren't committed to seeing it through.
  • a3camero 14y ago
    Or they live in a second/third world country, or they're a student, or...
    • samdunne 14y ago
      Exactly my thoughts
    • danielweber 14y ago
      $5000 to spend a month working on something you love isn't that bad for many places in the US, even. I wouldn't take this deal, because stopping / starting employment isn't that easy for me, but I can see other people rationally taking it. And if other people think he's underbidding, I would encourage them to bid him up.
      • kamjam 14y ago
        I wouldn't take this deal, because stopping / starting employment isn't that easy for me But for those people who freelance, and are in between jobs this may well be an ideal opportunity to (continue) being paid for doing something they have been thinking about for a long time.
      • emidln 14y ago
        A couple years ago I would have been all over this. I've done several ventures similar to this resulting in modest exits as well as couple resulting in being simply paid for working 4-12 weeks on something I want netting nice contacts. It's okay if you don't hit a home run. It's even better if you don't starve or get evicted for your troubles.
    • klibertp 14y ago
• natural219 14y ago
  I think this is a great idea, but you could possibly word it more effectively. If I read that last sentence right, you're looking to go into business (IE, cofound) a startup with a dedicated, resourceful developer, presumably on an idea that you yourself buy into. Is this closer to what you're talking about than an angel/investment model?
• brudgers 14y ago
  The deal amounts to $6500 dollars in exchange for 50% equity. The $3000 spent acquiring users/customers is to the benefit of both parties equally. As the offer is written, the $3000 could be spent on AdWords and similar services.
  • hmexx 14y ago
    Correct. Thought I'd confirm this response so there is no confusion as to what I am offering. The $8000 in the title is not 100% accurate.
    • mark_l_watson 14y ago
      hmexx, to be clear: you pay $5000 to the developer to seed full time development for a month or two and on completion you will in addition spend $3000 promoting the product. An open question is: how active of a partner would you be once the business (hopefully) becomes a real/profitable business? Are you offering to be a full active partner in running the successful businesses that you seed with this offer? If so, then your offer sounds like a good deal for developers. Anyway, great idea!
• samdunne 14y ago
  Despite the naysayers I emailed you my idea. I think it's a great opportunity
• deleted 14y ago
  [deleted]
• killpg 14y ago
  I've been wanting to write a Facebook competitor. Your $5000 is the motivation I need to see it through. It will be awesome owning 50% in the next Facebook. Let's do this!
• rafekett 14y ago
  Sorry, but $6500 for 1/2 of your company seems like a raw deal at any stage. If your idea is even halfway decent, you should be able to do better than $13000 for your initial valuation. Protip: find real investors who are interested in giving you a fair price. This offer is basically equivalent to a payday advance or a loan shark in terms of cost.
  • jeremyarussell 14y ago
    Not sure why you got down-voted so much, it didn't seem like you were being ridiculous. Maybe people didn't like when you equated the OP with a loan shark? That said sometimes people need loan sharks.
• juanpdelat 14y ago
  I think this is a great opportunity. As a developer coming from a third world country, I am sure many people could benefit from things like this. In a third world country, a student or recent graduate with no experience, would make those $8k in a year.
• xauronx 14y ago
  Neat idea. Personally I think it's a good opportunity for guys like me who have a ton of ideas but half implement them, or implement them and never market. Sure, 50% is a large chunk for doing "all of the work" but I don't have to worry about funding or marketing, so that's pretty solid. You say you're a "techie" as well. Do you bring anything else to the table? Would you create marketing materials (websites, ads, etc) or would your partner be responsible for that as well?
• StylusEater 14y ago
  Intriguing. There are websites like Elance that could help you structure the terms and refine your pitch to make it more appealing. Have you looked there or are you content trying to snag a shark with a freshwater minnow?
• dcaranda 14y ago
  - Model would probably work best for small, consumer-focused ideas (enterprise sales cycle is too long to know if there's traction after 2 months). - 50% is too expensive. - "Co-Founder" role is too much commitment. - Reduce equity ask, package with a 1 year cliff + vesting schedule, market it to college students as a way to spend your summer. - Maybe there's a model where an incubator can scale to thousands of companies, instead of dozens.
• ezl 14y ago
  I love this idea. I realize there are haters out there. I'll match this offer as well for anyone who is interested. Yes, it sounds like a bad deal for some people. But for a lot of people its a great way to: 1. not have to find work for a month, 2. work on something they're passionate about anyways, 3. have an idea of theirs that may not have otherwise seen light of day become a reality.
  • lifeisstillgood 14y ago
    Can I suggest that this is turning into a HN Matchmaking service Perhaps a little codification might be good: * A Maker puts their idea onto HS with "MatchMake HN: " * Any interested Investor then replies * Maker chooses Investor (possibly publically) * A month later a "Show HN" is published. I would be interested seeing everyone's results
    • derefr 14y ago
      I'm now imagining building a marketplace site roughly like eLance/oDesk/whatever else, where the investor can put money in escrow and clients (freelancers) can "bid"--but it's the freelancers who are proposing the jobs in their entirety, not the investor.
      • phogster 14y ago
        I'm loving this entire thread. I wish HN had more brainstorming sessions like these.
      • orionblastar 14y ago
        Wouldn't it be funny if a MVP uses one of those freelance sites and spends the $5000 on a team in India to finish the project in two months and then has the $3000 to promote it? Subcontracting can be fun you know.
      • panther2k 14y ago
        http://makermatch.herokuapp.com http://makermatch.herokuapp.com Just put this together. No escrow or anything and haven't fully implemented bidding but let's see if there's any interest.
• dorkitude 14y ago
  How many such projects will you be funding?
• at_joanojr 14y ago
  Brilliant, reminds me of this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orteig_Prize http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orteig_Prize 25,000 price meant that hundreds of people invested a total of 400,000 in pursuit of the prize. Pretty much gave birth to the modern aviation industry.
• cjmagee 14y ago
  Ask 3 people what defines "MVP" and you'll get 3 definitions. What's your definition and how will completion be determined?
• drelihan 14y ago
  Just one point: the 50/50 split can just be a starting point for profit sharing. Companies can be structured for that decisions/voting are handled independently from ownership percentages. 50/50 splits aren't forever either. Additional equity can be issued at certain milestones. There are a lot of ways something like this can be setup so its fair for everyone and it seems like hmexx is open to suggestions to make that fair.
• jeswin 14y ago
  Is it OK if people (if they want to) post their ideas directly on this thread, instead of emailing? So perhaps, others like you could offer similar capital. I can be excluded, but here is an example: I have a hibernating project, called Lapp'd. It could be thought of as Medium.com for businesses. Here's the only screen I made: http://www.lappd.com http://www.lappd.com
• philip1209 14y ago
  I'm interested, but I have an important question: Are you an accredited investor? Must you be, for this plan to work?
  • aaronevans 14y ago
    Accredited by the American Dental Association or the Fidelity Investments sales intern training program?
• faramarz 14y ago
  My only comment is to setup a buffer vote in the contract so to mediate with a third-party in times of conflict. 50-50 equal partners means no one gets what they want. That is both good and bad.
• jacquesm 14y ago
  To the naysayers in this thread: You have several options here other than just saying 'oohhh, this is mean and nasty'. - match the offer with a better one, so all those that would take up the OP would flock to you instead - build your MVP, keep 100% and then do your own marketing. $5000 for 50% difference but you get to do all the work. Either one of those would be so much more effective than just berating the OP or warning others of this evil and greedy person.
  • tyang 14y ago
    Exactly. This is great, out-of-the box thinking by the OP. Anyone who want to do something like this (esp. the OP and jacquesm), please connect with me on LinkedIn: Terrence C. Yang, mentor, angel.
    • brudgers 14y ago
      Despite my 'naysaying,' I recognize the value of the idea as an MVP. However, I believe that the HN community is well served by vetting this particular offer.
      • jacquesm 14y ago
        The proof of the pudding is in the eating. Either make a better counter offer using your rep as your backing or go build something. Saying 'nay' is easy, improving on the concept is a bit harder but can easily be done if you're so inclined. You are essentially saying that people here can't make up their own minds if they want to take a chance on something or not. If the OP is full of it then I'm pretty sure he/she will be hung out to dry and someone may be out a month and will have gained $5K. Whether that was an acceptable risk to take is up to them.
        • brudgers 14y ago
          Unlike much of Western Europe, the US has pay to play model for elite youth sports. It is largely a side effect of the role colleges play in amateur athletics. There is no La Masia. There are no schoolboy contracts. I referee youth soccer. My son plays. I see the way the business works. Dreams of college scholarships fill the trough at which professional youth coaches feed. All premised on the misconception that women's soccer is like college football. But women's soccer is only allowed 12 scholarships - football has 88. The general conception of what it means to own stock in any business tends to be closer to the Microsoft secretary and the Google chef than to an approximation of $zero. My biggest criticism of the offer is the anonymity of the investor serving as precedent for similar offers to the HN community. My concern is that such offers feed off people's dreams. The deal is structured in a way almost guaranteed to require additional investment should the project gain traction. There's no runway by design and once the technical founder's position is diluted, he can be swiftly booted to the curb. If hmexx is a moral paragon, I cannot offer a better deal. If he isn't, I can offer no deal at all. And that may be a better one.
• helen842000 14y ago
  This is a great deal. I posted not too long ago asking why there isn't more micro-funding available. This kind of offer removes the friction to getting started. By covering the basics for an entrepreneur they can work pressure free with total focus on the project. I could build several projects in that time. I think the difficulty in this deal comes after the first couple of months when you have to earn your normal wage and continue to build upon the first version.
• rafaqueque 14y ago
  I sent anyway. We never know...
• katzgrau 14y ago
  Just thinking aloud. Is this really ... ? Dev: Is rock star techie whose disadvantage is lack of motivation Dev: Builds MVP that Proposer thinks is going to be valuable Proposer: "Validates" it by showing it around Proposer: Sells flips MVP for considerably more than $8k It's not necessarily bad, it's probably symbiotic. So.. * Do all stars care about 5k? * If they do, why is short-term motivation of $5k show powerful? * 50/50 with equal voting rights? Disputes, ahoy. Two people that never worked with each other before.
• jborden13 14y ago
  I applaud this. It may not be the perfect deal for everyone, but creating options for want-repreneurs is typically a good thing. My only caution would be to vet the would-be investor to ensure that this is someone you want to be in bed with.
• webbruce 14y ago
  This is a great idea. I think people strongly undervalue the step called traction. Getting people to pay for your service.
• lifeisstillgood 14y ago
  Financially I do not think this is a great deal. Emotionally its probably what many devs need. Accelerators, meetups, co-founders, all serve the same need. Believing that the idea has at least one person who believes in it, and prods you to move on. That said, this is probably a bad split - hmexx might be better to decide if he is an investor (early stage) or a co-founder -> if the latter then really its just one company - you cannot be a founder of two companies at the same time...
  • greghinch 14y ago
    Agreed about the co-founder vs. investor problem. I would suggest anyone who wants to take this offer up do their diligence on hmexx and find out what he's bringing to the table as a co-founder. If it's just $8k for half a company that you will have to split 50/50 for the rest of it's existence, be wary. If he's a co-founder, he should join in on the workload after the MVP is proven. I would also consider vesting for both of you, keeps things honest. That being said, I think this idea does have the potential to be very interesting, and if circumstances were different I might even consider it.
    • lifeisstillgood 14y ago
      Yeah - I am sure hmexx has hit on something - and I think it needs to evolve before its right (pivot! :-) My guess (above) is that HN is the ideal place for investor / 'prenuer matchmaking. Whether pg will let it be I cannot tell you. But it should beat AngelList just because.
      • benologist 14y ago
        This sounds almost tailor-made for YC to use as filter for their own applications. It's closer to their roots too, a tiny team with exactly enough money and time to do something.
    • gknoy 14y ago
      > I would also consider vesting for both of you, keeps things honest. For those of us who are complete neophytes at things like this, would you be willing to elaborate on what this means, and why it's important?
• nicholas73 14y ago
  I think this is worth it if you would be a good co-founder in any case. That means you are really putting in 8000 for not working the first two months, and then work the same amount as the other founder. However if putting in 8000 is the only thing you do, then it's a horrible idea. Putting in more money, maybe. This is the perspective of someone in the Bay Area though. 5000 is easily saved/spent here. You can find someone else cheaper, but likely would have to communicate remotely. That increases your risk too.
• katzgrau 14y ago
  It's funny, because developers do this sort of thing all the time for much less equity. Startup: Hey, come work here for below market salary for 5% that vests over 4 years Dev: Sounds rad! This guy: Hey, work on your own project for 50%, and you only have to work on is the MVP for a month, and I'll pay you sort of crappy but probably better than other people in other fields. HN Devs: You. fucking. bastard.
  • freehunter 14y ago
    Also - Startup: And you're going to be working on our project, with the documents and design we came up with. Dev: Great! This guy: Work on your own idea! Have your own dream! I'll just put in the money and experience to make the business a success. HN Devs: You're not offering enough to have a 50% share in the company that wouldn't exist without you!
    • taytus 14y ago
      > I'll just put in the money and experience What experience?, I don't know who this guy is!.
      • freehunter 14y ago
        Well I didn't say it's true, just that he's claiming it's true.
  • mingpan 14y ago
    It is funny. Although, I don't think that comparison is completely fair. Usually, a startup that has started hiring has already achieved some degree of progress, traction, and demonstrated potential.
• krmmalik 14y ago
  What if the person isn't a techie, and doesn't necessarily need to build a product, but just needs to take time out to build the business?
• dschiptsov 14y ago
  We split the resulting company 50-50, as equal co-founders. - you must be trolling?) How would you like to become equal to the years of thinking and trying by just throwing some money?
  • unreal37 14y ago
    Its a classic startup. One partner has the money/business expertise, and one develops/produces. Apple started like that. If Woz told Jobs, "You can't code? I don't need you", there'd be no Apple today.
    • michaelfdeberry 14y ago
      Jobs didn't have much business experience when they started the company and there was a friendship there. I have tried going a similar route as this when starting a company and it didn't work.
    • dschiptsov 14y ago
      Money is not enough. One should be worth of partnering with - well-connected, or even better - a market maker. Basically, what companies like YC do is looking at you, and thinking to whom they will sell you - they are evaluating a few exit strategies. Money usually isn't a problem. Ability to meet the right people and negotiate good terms are.
• PaulJoslin 14y ago
  I really like this idea. It removes the risk for the developer to just 'build' (which is ultimately what they enjoy doing) and also shifts the key responsibility for the initial marketing / customer acquisition away from the developer (which is often what they either don't enjoy doing or suck at). After this phase, either the idea is a success, the developer gets paid and a mvp is now a business hopefully with profit (for both parties involved) or the idea was not a success and the developer still gets paid some money. If you have a world changing idea and you've quit your job with a plan to start a start up - that's fine. This probably isn't the right opportunity for you - try Y Combinator or go in search of real funding once you've built a self financed MVP. However, if you're a developer with a niggling idea that you keep meaning to work on because you know it could turn into something bigger or you just don't feel confident in your own marketing / customer (or user) acquisition skills then this is a really great opportunity! I've literally missed so many opportunities before, where I've had an idea - not executed it due to no short term monetary reward or no confidence that I could market it correctly and then watched as a start up is formed a year or two later by someone else which was essentially that idea!
• BigBalli 14y ago
  I'm in, have many iPhone app ideas (businesses) that only need funding so I can allot time. How can we reach you? http://www.giacomoballi.com/apps http://www.giacomoballi.com/apps
• ssharp 14y ago
  "At this point, I'll take over and spend an additional $3000 to acquire enough users/customers for us to evaluate the project's likelihood of success. We split the resulting company 50-50, as equal co-founders." How does this scale. Presumably in Hacker X builds a product you like and you're able to find success with your $3000 and marketing efforts, how does the relationship move on. Presumably, you've now built a product dependent on both of you. Hacker X needs to build new features/scale and you need to ramp up your marketing efforts in equal measure. But you have products from Hacker Y and Hacker Z that you're currently working on, and Hacker A, Hacker B, and Hacker C's products are also financially viable. What happens now? I suppose my issue is (from the hacker perspective) that for 50% equity, I expect some lasting relationship with the person handling the marketing of my product beyond wherever $3000 gets you. For those jumping on OP for requiring 50%, remember it's an offer and you're free to explore other avenues. Nobody is holding a gun to your head. For many people, this is a pretty fair deal. It might not be for you, but I don't see how OP is taking advantage of anyone. He's significantly reducing risk for freelancers to work full-time on their own projects and that significant risk reduction comes with a price tag.
  • dutgriff 14y ago
    That is a very good though. I sure would hate to put 100% into my 50% and the other 50% of the company only allow 10% because the other 90% is in 9 other companies... You said it better.
• arthurquerou 14y ago
  While it might not be interesting for some people already working in a company (as you mentioned in the FAQ), it might very well be interesting for some students for example. Instead of an internship, they could work on their project for 2 months (or more) with your help. This is an amazing initiative. I study (in parallel of my own company) in a really good engineering school specialized in the field of computer science in France. If you would like to get some people there. While I am not directly interested, I could help you get some students there. Drop me a mail at arthurquerou [@] gmail.com if you are interested.
• dschiptsov 14y ago
  Here is something to read for a freelancers with good ideas before considering any such "propositions" - http://karma-engineering.com/lab/wiki/Hiring http://karma-engineering.com/lab/wiki/Hiring
• porter 14y ago
  Would it not be more effective for you to first spend the $3,000 talking to customers (perhaps pre-selling)? Then once you land on an idea customers want, then you can invest $5,000 (or more) to actually build the product.
  • uladzislau 14y ago
    I agree that finding product/market fit first is much more efficient than building a product with unknown market response.
• suhastech 14y ago
  I think this is perfect for first time wannapreneurs with very limited connections which seems like a large untapped space. I applaud the proposal. I'd love to hear about a follow up post in the near future.
• slav 14y ago
  Obviously everything depends on hmexx's credentials, but I think to many this may be quite attractive proposition (depending how fast you can achieve MVP) eg. if it's a 1-2 month thing you can just take a break from contracting and do this - if it works out - great! you have 50% of the business if not then you just go back to contracting...
• deleted 14y ago
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• michaelochurch 14y ago
  Initial thoughts: not disruptive enough to justify the extremely low valuation. How are you different from a reputable angel investor, who also brings connections? $5000 lasts about a month in NYC or the Bay Area. I like the ambition (of disrupting the funding process) but, in all honesty, to me this sounds like "I just need an idea guy" (as opposed to "I just need a programmer").
  • manaskarekar 14y ago
    What if it's for guys not in NYC or the Bay Area?
    • rwallace 14y ago
      Or even in those places, if you're in high school or college, have some skills and an idea, this could be an attractive alternative to looking for a summer job.
• sylvinus 14y ago
  50-50 is usually a terrible idea, moreover if you don't know each other beforehand.
• frankyurban 14y ago
  For a person that constantly has ideas with great potential and no time/money to put into them, this is a great deal. I think 50/50 for a push like this is worth a try. Shipping a project that has been in my back-burner for a year would certainly be a gratifying experience by itself. Getting paid to do that? Hell yes!
• deleted 14y ago
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• gesman 14y ago
  50% upfront. 75% upon 50% completion. 100% upon 100% completion. Your 50% ownership is contingent upon at least $10,000 sales resulted from your effort to "acquire enough users/customers", tracked within 6 months from full delivery. Deal?
• mark_ellul 14y ago
  hmexx I think this is a pretty good opportunity. However as others have commented its not so easy to just drop all client work for 2 months, especially when you have responsibilities. Apart from that I think its a brilliant idea!
• geebee 14y ago
  This is very intriguing. A lot of people have objected to the 50-50 split. It does seem like a lot for the amount of money invested. To me, this depends on how much work the investor will put into it. Let me put it this way - if someone with money offered me 8K total for 50% of my side project, and that was it, I'd say no way. If someone with talent, motivation, and a remarkable ability to get things done offered me nothing other than his or her dedication to making my side project a success in exchange for 50%, I might say yes. So it isn't really about the 8k. Here's the thing. Suppose you're one of those highly motivated and effective people, but you know yourself and you just aren't the creative force behind a project. You know that there are lots of creative programmers who would produce an app if they could just get away and be funded for month or so. So you offer some money. Instead of finding prototypes and looking for one to fund and support, you're finding programmers and looking for one to produce a prototype. Instead of looking to join an early startup, you're offering a small amount of money to create a startup to join. Maybe one way to modify this would be to say - if I pass, you keep the money and your prototype, and I give up on my share (or it is greatly reduced). If I decide your app is the one I want to run with, we are now 50-50 partners in the venture.
  • ezl 14y ago
    I think of the proposition as an intro to a PARTNERSHIP. I posted above that I'm willing to match the offer. I don't think of this as an "investment" so much as me trying to kick start a relationship where I'm a cofounder. As such, I'm interested specifically in ideas where I believe I can provide value that the other cofounder doesn't, so we both benefit. I expect it to be an ongoing pursuit where I continue to work on the company. Buying half a company for 5k and then putting in 3k of advertising only to walk away would be the wrong move on my part and that's not the intention I have going into any transaction that may result from this.
• negamax 14y ago
  I think it's a great proposal and interesting experiment. Kudos. Hoping some notable result from it.
• deleted 14y ago
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• clark-kent 14y ago
  The big problem I have with this is that the 50-50 split gives hmexx too much control. With this 50-50 split who decides the future direction of the project. After the MVP is ready there is still a lot of coding required to make it a successful business, you need the developer to be fully committed to the project. Losing 50% stake this early is not that much motivation. Unless the new partner brings specific skills to the table that the business can't survive without. It's better to take a small stake like 15% and just choose a project very selectively.
• shareme 14y ago
  I like this..sort of a mini Jason Calacanis Launch
• dlf 14y ago
  My concern with the approach is that it doesn't seem very lean. An idea that a developer has kicking around isn't necessarily one that has a market. I'd suggest getting involved early on the product development side and getting out and talking to customers. Articulated market needs are much more valuable than just an idea... Nathan Barry had a nice post on HN the other day having to do with this: http://nathanbarry.com/finding-ideas-project/ http://nathanbarry.com/finding-ideas-project/ Business Model Generation (http://www.businessmodelgeneration.com/book http://www.businessmodelgeneration.com/book) is a helpful resource as well.
  • aaronevans 14y ago
    Anyone can come up with an idea. Lots of people can build a product for a wage. Finding someone who will develop their own idea is what's valuable. The question is whether people who can deliver technically want a partner who can deliver marketing and are willing to take the risk finding them.
• jwb119 14y ago
  First off, I love this idea and don't listen to the naysayers. Second, I would strongly recommend getting a lawyer to draft up some sort of agreement that specifies what happens if the project isn't up to spec, etc. It would essentially be a basic contract. I know there's always the temptation to say "well the legal costs would be too much to enforce it" but that's not always the case. This is garden variety stuff here. You don't need to protect every scenario to provide some value to yourself.
• hudell 14y ago
  I liked the idea. How long will you keep the offer up? I'm currently moving to a new place and won't have time to do it right now, but would love to accept the offer in about two months.
• aleprok 14y ago
  This is somewhat interesting, but I can always work half the speed and save that $3,000 for marketing on the way to completion of the MVP, get a friend to come along with much less equity to help out. Then again you want the idea, you want the initial work and piggy back possibly on a billion dollar idea.
• r0fls 14y ago
  I would love to do this... is this real? How would I go about applying?
• kwang88 14y ago
  I'd personally be much more in favor of a case where you take 25% equity and the builder (or potentially, a builder / marketer team) handles all of the marketing.
• budu3 14y ago
  I'm uncomfortable with the "At this point, I'll take over ..." bit. I can foresee it becoming a mess if the project becomes successful and there is no chemistry between founder and investor.
• zbruhnke 14y ago
  Why not just pay someone to code up your own idea and spend your time and money marketing that? it doesn't have to be perfect to become a successful product. Dan Shapiro has built and sold a couple of products that way and it has worked out well for him. I don't see the value in paying someone a fee (and a minimal one at that) then giving them half the company for a relatively small amount of work. Also, your email is not in your profile, so if someone wanted to contact you, you are already making that part of the process exponentially harder
• cedricd 14y ago
  How many of these deals are you doing? Just one? And if so once you've got your 50% you'll work on it full-time too?
• IgorPartola 14y ago
  How many ideas are you looking to fund? Also, is your proposition negotiable?
• saddino 14y ago
  Premise 2 is flawed IMO. An MVP built by a lone, but talented techie for $5000 / number_of_hours, isn't likely to turn into something 'successful' at all because 1) someone who values their time so little is probably not that talented, and 2) an idea whose perceived valuation is essentially $8K probably isn't that good to begin with.
  • ricardobeat 14y ago
    The US isn't the only country in the world where business and software dev happens. US$ 5k is ~2 months a good developer salary over here in Brazil, it's a pretty decent amount for one month of work. Most importantly, 99% of ideas are valued at $0.
  • GFischer 14y ago
    As another Latin American mentioned, the US isn't the only country in the world. U$ 5.000 is about what I get for 3 months of salary, so it works out. I agree I'm not talented... at selling myself, but I do believe myself capable of building something in 3 months. I like the proposition in principle, I won't do it because I have too many financial commitments and it sounds too risky and I have only one shot, if I was a kid just out of college I might have done it. The government of my country has a similar offer, but with 0% equity, for local entrepreneurs, I'll try to take on that offer :) .
• drizzo4shizzo 14y ago
  wow has NOBODY considered the idea that this guy is just harvesting your ideas? who knows how sincere the offer is. phishing 101
  • lvturner 14y ago
    Ideas aren't as sacred as you'd think. It's the execution of them that generates revenue.
    • codexnight 14y ago
      You are underestimating ideas.While I do agree with you in 80%-90% of cases, there are still excellent ideas that should stay under the radar.If you don't execute an idea doesn't mean it worths nothing.It means you don't harness it's power.It's kind of the same as having 1 ton of gold in your garage and keeping it there.
• ChuckMcM 14y ago
  This discussion is awesome! I would never have believed such a simple conjecture could provide so much illumination around the myths and realities of startups. First, its a great deal, both for hmexx and folks who take him up on it. Frankly I think it could be revolutionary. My reasoning is as follows; Many "products" over the last couple of years have been fairly straight forward web "apps" built on top of existing infrastructure. They provide some basic customer value, they tend to be fashionable (moderate lifetime), and generally take less than a year to produce. That is almost exactly the same as the book publisher model. So hmexx sets himself up as an MVP "publisher" and pays "authors" $5000 up front and a 50% interest in the proceeds going forward. Now lots of new book authors would love that deal because they know how to write books but they have no idea how to promote them into bookstores and Amazon's top lists etc. Unlike books though web apps don't pay out a revenue stream on per-unit sales. Instead they tend to either a pay a chunk via a buyout, or they generate income over time with advertising/partnerships. If we're talking about "apps" for mobile then there is a revenue stream very similar to books. So I reason its a good deal because the content creator has a much better chance to benefit from their creation than previous generations of artists had. Now as an illumination, the whole 50/50 thing shines a light right into the core of the startup 'dream' mentality. It is the idea that you will start a company that becomes the next Facebook and you become a billionaire over about 10 years of nights. 50% of zero is zero, 50% of a billion dollar company is $500M worth. The closer reality is that if the idea has 'legs' then you can expect a series A round that will reduce both of you to 33% and then a series B which takes you to 20% to 25%. If you get there you're probably making a decent salary and have some small but non-zero shot of a return. Every year somebody makes over $50M on one of the big lottery games in the US, its only like once in 5 years that people make over $50M from their startup. The good news is that fewer people have the chops to "buy in" to a startup lottery ticket. So that is the reality. If you want to make some money, buy a house, raise a family. Go work for Oracle or Apple or Microsoft or Google. Don't do startups for the money, do them because you are passionate about what they are trying to create. If you do them for the money you will become bitter and depressed. But this offer, to be paid $5000 in exchange for a half interest in the lottery ticket you create? Given the 'two, three month' worth of work estimate. There is not a whole lot to complain about.
  • chiquitabacana 14y ago
• loceng 14y ago
  50/50 is dangerous split. We disagree, nothing happens. Developer invested time (sure they got paid), but now their idea is highly-likely landlocked with you.
• pajju 14y ago
  Warning checklist: Ask yourself repeatedly, "I'm giving out my valuable idea, which I protected so long." Let's consider a premise now: Say you gave your idea to him, i.e you sold it off full! (Don't forget you have to convince him hard to win, so you literally sold the whole idea, the strategy and all) Followup: Now, say he rejects your idea, are you fine that your once great idea/side-project being sold or ripped off? If you believe much in yourself and your idea, then don't apply, keep all the equity to yourself and find a better co-founder in your niche.
• RockyMcNuts 14y ago
  If the investor is a good co-founder and committed to the idea and has the network and chops to make something happen for $3000, might be a good idea for some people. But... you want a co-founder who is committed, can point you to the right way to build the MVP so that you can actually acquire customers, has a network in and some knowledge of your vertical. Otherwise, you build an MVP, give up 50% for... not necessarily very much. Now you have a weak co-founder with 50%, might make it hard to take the next step, sort out control issues, have enough equity to get more people interested and still be interesting for the founder. And if you really believe in your idea, and are the kind of strong hacker and entrepreneur that will be successful, is $5,000 that big a hurdle for friends and family, credit cards etc.?
  • loceng 14y ago
    You summed it up nicely here.
• rdl 14y ago
  The big question here is how many of these will you do, and will you be able to be a real co-founder to them. Doing one would be great. I could maybe even see up to 5 or so, since there's going to be an attrition rate on the people getting to MVP -- maybe a deal where if you decide not to go forward, they keep the $5k and 98% of the business? I have no idea who you are, but if someone who seemed to be a credible cofounder offered to do a startup, front $5-8k, and do sales/dev/etc., that could be an entirely reasonable deal for some people.
• chiquitabacana 14y ago
  I was born long ago, on 1894. I've been hungry, i've been cold and now i'm growing old. But that was the worst i've ever seen.
• dude_abides 14y ago
  This proposition will work IFF the OP has street cred. Why did you choose to go anonymous? Founders want a backer with street cred more than they want money. Most founders will gladly give 90% equity for a pittance if the investor is in the league of Ron Conway or a16z...
• pknerd 14y ago
  Is this offer only for US residents?
• cheez 14y ago
  The way I'd see this working is: - You pay me $5K - I do the thing - In N months, I license the software to you for M months as payment for the $5L - You spend $3K and decide it's worth it - Formal agreement Not bad at all. My only reservation: how do I know that $3K + you = worthwhile for me? How do I know that you are good at acquiring customers? This is actually my main problem (acquiring customers).
• dorkrawk 14y ago
  Considering the very low percentage of IDEAS that turn into valuable companies, especially without the injection of new contacts and business expertise that an incubator might provide this actually seems like an OK deal. If hmexx does 10 of these, there's a very good chance that he'll flush $80K down the crapper and 10 developers will have had a great time building something they care about and learning a TON about what it's like to work full time on something alone. Perhaps some new friendships are forged. If you know that your idea is THE big idea that can be worth millions, take $5K out of the bank or your retirement fund or sell your car or do anything in your power to come up with 2 months of survival money and do it on your own. If not, have some risk free fun and a great experience building something awesome with hmexx's money.
• edw519 14y ago
  Any limit to the number of projects you'll fund per person? I'll just write an MVP generator and spit 'em out as fast as I can think them up. At one per day (a walk in the park), I'd earn $2,920,000 per year and you'd have enough stuck on the wall to keep you busy forever. (I wrote this partially in jest, but not really. Between my propensity to write software that writes software and OP's imagination and drive, maybe we're on to something.)
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  • devcpp 14y ago
    He says he expects people to work full-time for about a month and will pay nex to nothing before he sees some code. So yeah, I guess about one per month per person...
• Gabriel_Martin 14y ago
  I'm at GabrielMtn@gmail.com, would be happy to correspond, and support your initiative.
• odedvard 14y ago
  Any room for a designer in this proposal? If a talented programmer has a great idea, and is able to make it functional, thats great. However, as a designer I'm interested in how these projects will turn out visually.
  • coecoventures 14y ago
    I agree. It would be good to have a biz partner, design partner, and technical partner to round out the team.
  • aaronevans 14y ago
    I'll take a design partner. Your idea or mine. $5000. I don't have any marketing chops though.
• z-factor 14y ago
  Here's a counter-offer. If you have an idea and I like it, I'll take your $5000 and will build an MVP. You'll have to commit to spend at least $3000 more on marketing right after it. And I'll take 50% of the business.
• pablius 14y ago
  Nice idea! The 50/50 split is dangerous unless you specify a way to know who has the final decision. A coin flip maybe? :) Also more specifics about the "take over" part would be nice.
• alexanderh 14y ago
  Where do I apply? I have at least 3 side projects in the oven, but definitely am in a dire financial situation currently. This sort of thing sounds right up my alley. I imagine competition is going to be steep though?
• piyush_soni 14y ago
  Good idea, but personally I'd take a $5000 loan instead.
• dinky 14y ago
  If you would like to negotiate this or another proposition, you can use a service I wrote: http://lookapinky.com http://lookapinky.com
• embplat 14y ago
  1. Find someone on (Elance|Odesk|etc.) to do it for less than half of $5,000 2. Get the difference 3. Profit
• phereford 14y ago
  I don't at all understand why people are berating this proposition. This proposition makes a helluva lot of sense. I have done the hustling/marketing side of a startup. I got my failed (sigh) startup lots of good press and lots of users. I would venture to say that I probably put in more work than any developer on my team at that point. Now, I am a hacker but I 100% fully understand the value he is putting down. He will be just as invested in your MVP as you will be. His sole job is something you never have to worry about. Maybe he doesnt hold his end up of the bargain, which may happen. If that does happen, well make sure there is a clause in whatever agreement you sign.
• djabatt 14y ago
  I have to say this is genius and I agree with the premise 2 totally.
• seivan 14y ago
  I am very interested in this. I believe as you do "An MVP built by a lone, but talented techie is almost as likely to turn into something 'successful' as a startup on angellist that has: 4 founders, 9 advisors, 13 press releases, 600 followers, etc"
• dhardy 14y ago
  I have a site that I would consider selling you for $5000. In fact, I just asked HN what they thought I should do with it - http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5028846 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5028846 Sadly, I didn't get any traction so not many people saw it or gave feedback. It is a complete MVP that I do not have the time or money remaining to market. The code is all there and it is extremely portable. I have an idea or two about how to make a profit with it as well as several features you could add to make it really great. Take a look and let me know.
• ronreiter 14y ago
  No sane person would take a deal where 50% of the idea is owned by someone who isn't doing anything. Your idea has a very serious flaw - why should someone who put 5000$ get 50% of the idea, and he has nothing to contribute to it.
• nnpodz 14y ago
  This idea is retarded. You'll build an mvp, and buy a few users, but you won't be building a business. A business is more than a one time mvp and a sales person. You'll need constant improvements / tweaks / changes, an ongoing marketing effort, new feature releases, new leads and sales, etc, which probably won't be accomplished by a static mvp and a single person.
• SonicSoul 14y ago
  i'd be curious to see what kind of interested this generated, and how many product ideas you considered to be worthy of your 5k investment.
• mikeleeorg 14y ago
  I can't wait to see the Show HN for this 2-3 months later. And if the cofounders are willing, I would love to see a retrospective/post-mortem a year from now.
• vik1211 14y ago
  I like this idea so much that I'm willing to join hmexx and e21 by matching the offer for the right idea. Further, the right idea/individual would get my full, undivided attention, resources, and limitless brainstorming/pivoting sessions. I'm also a fan of the idea of documenting the process and milestones on hn for the benefit of future teams or projects. My background is in law and business and I'm interested in technologies that bridge offline and online domains. I'm a daily reader of hn but a new poster. hmexx -- thanks for stepping up and encouraging more of us to do so.
  • ricardobeat 14y ago
    You should add your e-mail to your profile - it must be in the "about" field for everyone to see it. I happen to be sitting on a project that bridges online and offline, we applied for the last YC batch but didn't make it. Will send more info as soon as I'm able to :)
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  • calgaryeng 14y ago
    Give me a shout here: http://brandonparsons.me/contact/ http://brandonparsons.me/contact/
  • vik1211 14y ago
    Contact info: @vik1211 about.me/viksingh
• dirktheman 14y ago
  I think it's an awesome idea, and I'll gladly take you up on it. I have a side project that's nearly completed for some months now, and this is exactly the kind of kick in the butt I need to finish. To all the naysayers: I take it that you all have finished your ideas, went through YC and are accomplished millionaires? If not, what's with the negative attitude? Here's someone OFFERING you money for your project, and OFERING to do all the hustling for you. You underestimate how much work and trouble hustling is... Thank you for this opportunity, and you can expect my email later today!
• mikeleeorg 14y ago
  What is especially interesting to me is to see how well this "build it and they will come" approach will fare against the popular "customer discovery" approach. Of course, I assume the OP will be vetting the ideas through some kind of idea rubric, so he has some idea of market validity and isn't pushing forward some technology blindly.
• eranation 14y ago
  I like it but I think what you should do is reverse the order a little, I would first get ideas from people (sign NDA etc if people require it), then put a landing page, get the marketing going for a few weeks, the ones that get the most sign ups, go back to the developer and make that deal, the rest, well, you save your 5000$ and the developers time on a potentially bad idea (could be a great idea, but not attracting enough interest)
• Devlin_Donnelly 14y ago
  The model described here in this post sounds like a good start-up idea itself. Although you would need a fair amount of capital to mitigate the risk of company ideas that may fail.
• hhuio 14y ago
  The government should fund startups, via money printing. Instead of say pay people to stay unemployed.
  • jacquesm 14y ago
    Yes, but where's the pork in that?
  • lgieron 14y ago
    In Poland, the government does fund startups. It tends to draw all kinds of scam artists which will take the gov money and create some kind of hopeless facebook-for-dogs website just to satisfy formal requirements. The funding system is designed to weed out such individuals, but obviously they are highly motivated (free money!) so many of them manage to game it anyway.
• devb0x 14y ago
  Premise 3 is true for me. Too intensive is how I usually state it.
• wheelerwj 14y ago
  im in.
• delinquentme 14y ago
  "I'll take over and spend an additional $3000 to acquire enough users/customers for us to evaluate the project's likelihood of success." ... So if selected you're taking over the branding and sales of said company? If so how is pricing settled on?
• centdev 14y ago
  If this was answered, I can't find it. - At $5k / 50%, who is covering the costs of creating a separate entity (LLC formation)? - What happens in the event that the project is completed in time, but the addl $3k spent to acquire enough customers doesn't yield any positive results? - Who owns the IP in case after all is said and done, it falls into a dead pool? IP in code that didn't survive as a startup is still valuable. - How many side-projects are you funding and are you expected to be directly involved in each one? Some people look at getting paid $5k to complete a side project as plus. I guess to some it is. Taking 2 months to build means you were paid $2.5k per month (around $15 per hour) assuming 40hr work weeks. Customer acquisition is the most time consuming, costly and difficult part of any startup. Is $3k really realistic to determine if the market is there?
  • uladzislau 14y ago
    Very important questions here. Also it's much better to validate the idea before building the product.
  • aaronevans 14y ago
    Worry about that crap when you have something to worry about.
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• centdev 14y ago
  It seems there is a fair amount of devs willing to do this and from what I can see a fair amount of people who would invest in projects. Wouldn't it make sense to pool a small amount of $2-5k investments from a number of individuals who all agree on a particular project and taking it to launch. Not speaking about crowd-funding/kickstarter. There's clearly a lot of very smart people who can build shit, and a small amount of folks willing to invest. Why not just pool everything together. Spread the risk, but combine the talents of more people.
• cdcarter 14y ago
  I'm in, and emailing you now, for the exact same reason I applied for Pinboard's PIC-PC within minutes of it going live. I have an idea for a project that I really like and find really helpful. I think others will like it too. I'm also really really busy. This will give me just enough of a push to actually DO instead of just think about it, and enough of a backing that I can get SOMEONE else involved once it's built, so I don't have to spend all my free time running it, while working full time.
• abhishivsaxena 14y ago
  http://muis.co/abhishiv http://muis.co/abhishiv
• robomartin 14y ago
  OK, I'll put something concrete on the table to get away from the hypothetical. Here's one of my MVP's (yes folks, I am working on more than one idea at a time): http://www.tommyteaches.com/ http://www.tommyteaches.com/ Go on, check it out and come back. This is actually a finished product. There's nothing new to build at this stage except for additional installments of Tommy Teaches apps (additional subjects) and a few that will require slightly different technology. So, it is an MVP only in the sense that it is the first "hook in the water" to be able to start gathering a little bit of an audience and start testing a hypothesis. Where is it now? It just launched, and, as a paid app, it enjoyed all of three days in the "new in education" list and notched down from there. I probably should have released it as a free app and then convert to paid. It has a built-in recommendation system which --I would hope-- would then serve to gather a larger audience. The real power is in having Tommy teach additional topics and have more hooks in the water. Then it can leverage into other areas, such as a more elaborate online portal with advertising, affiliate stuff and online games to keep them coming. You have to start somewhere. And yes, the strategy with new titles will be to release them as free apps and then migrate into paid at certain point. This app required a lot of heavy lifting in order to creatively utilize a genetic algorithm to optimize teaching. All-in-all, between various experiments and concepts you are looking at about a year's worth of work. Why take it that far? Because that was part of the initial hypothesis. It came out of helping my own kids with school-work. The realization was that the vast majority of apps out there use mindless (and useless) repetition to "teach". A real human teacher actually observes the student and adjusts teaching style, sequence and content in order to focus on what the kid is having trouble with and optimize/maximize learning. That's what Tommy Teaches attempts to do. OK, long explanation. Let's get back to the OP's proposal and the potential relevance to this project. With Tommy's engine (rev 1) and his first app released I am engaged in the following: - Planning follow-on titles (as seen on the website) - Marketing, building an audience - Monitoring usage (analytics) to try to determine if and how to mutate Tommy for better results - Looking for additional revenue-generating opportunities for Tommy Amazon affiliate links on the site for kid's books and toys being one example. In other words, mostly business development. So, what might inspire me to give up a percentage of my business to someone else? Yes, there's still plenty of development work to do. Nothing is ever finished. As projects go, this is a fairly polished actual product, not a cripple-ware MVP. In my eyes outside funding would be of use to accelerate the production of additional titles. That, I think, is important. It would also be interesting to consider accelerating the release of these titles for Android and perhaps even consider dipping toes in the Windows 8 Phone landscape. The other very important element here is the use of outside funding AND know-how/connections to accelerate marketing and audience-building efforts. This could be, by far, the most valuable part of a deal. This is particularly true when the technology is already built and it is basically a product that needs to be sold. Herein lies the issue, at least for me. The OP hasn't really provided enough information to evaluate the quality of his money (no offense intended). For most projects dumb money is useless. It can even be dangerous. Smart money comes with contacts, methods, audience, perspective, experience, outlook and a whole host of other items that go into making it "smart". Then there's the idea that $8,000 isn't a lot of money at all. If you are working in tech you should be able to put together $8,000, even if it takes you a year to do so. Equity is sacred and it should not be given-up without great justification. Again, on the premise that a tech worker earns a good living, giving-up 50% of your company for $8,000 (meaning, just money and a nebulous offer to market) simply doesn't make a ton of sense. I've hired and fired many sales and marketing people in prior business ventures. If there's one thing I can say conclusively is that there really isn't a perfect correlation between the ability of a person selling product A translating into selling product B. I've hired people who were fantastic at selling product A, had a huge client list and came with recommendations. They couldn't sell my product to save their lives. There's something, for lack of a better term, "organic" about the relationship or the fit between the marketeer/sales-person and the product. This is to say that just because someone says that they are going to market your product it does not mean --not for a second-- that they are actually going to be able to deliver results. Just to set things straight: I think the OP is doing this community a huge service by opening-up this paradigm for discussion. And, while the proposed structure isn't something I would be inclined to consider, I am sure there are those for whom it could be fantastic and even potentially life-changing. I am more than willing to consider a partner for Tommy Teaches. However, this partner needs to bring to the table a really convincing value proposition that goes beyond money. By all means, if you are that person and are interested drop me an email (see HN profile).
• charleshaanel 14y ago
  Anyone considering this offer will find this HBS professor's interview relevant to your interests - http://www.thestartupslingshot.com/startup-slingshot/should-you-find-a-co-founder-or-go-at-it-alone-with-noam-wasserman-of-harvard-business-school/ http://www.thestartupslingshot.com/startup-slingshot/should-...
• desireco42 14y ago
  This whole discussion is amazing. He pretty much removed any obstacle you might have to create your idea, offered his experience... and then a torrent of excuses and whining came back :). I am sure a bunch of smart people are probably taking him on the offer. hmexx if you would like, hit me up, I have several ideas that I am trying to create, you obviously have experience gaining traction, so maybe we could agree on one or two to work on it, I need a good cofounder. You don't need to pay me anything, in fact, we could both add 2-3K (more is excessive) as initial funds for each project. Obviously I would like to know a little about you and you can evaluate me as a potential partner.
• mingpan 14y ago
  This sounds like a very interesting deal. It wouldn't be right for my particular circumstances, but I imagine there are others out there for which it is a good fit. I would be really interested in hearing progress reports from your venture(s) down the line.
• fieldforceapp 14y ago
  Love this idea, really looking forward to learning about your results. I would recommend that in Version 1.1 you clarify the legal ownership & indemnification terms. $5k to build, with payment upon MVP completion... spend an additional $3k, including costs to establish a legal entity with joint ownership and friendly buy-out terms... Good luck!
• newyorktoe 14y ago
  This proposition was a great idea being trapped in a limited framework. Great because it was validated very well in the most profitable segment, i.e., HN programmers. Limited because right now, the investor side is monopolistic (no offense). Scaling MVP takes time, and hmexx won't be able to run 20 projects at the same time. I think this model should be expanded into two-sided market to attract more capital and more diverse background from techie investors. These techie investors may indeed come from Hacker News community themselves, who are more mature startup-wise (more capital and experience). Although the model has not been tested on the investors' side, I can sense a healthy demand from the comments here (especially from haters' camp :)) P/S: hmexx, would you consider this as my proposal for your 8K investment? :)
• coecoventures 14y ago
  I think this is great. One risk to hmexx, but may actually be a good thing, is that they get the 2nd or 3rd best idea from their dev partner. Then, if there is a healthy exit, the dev partner can fund their no.1 good idea. However, after a successful exit with hmexx, they may be in pole position to participate in the next deal with their dev partner while seriously reducing the biz partner's work load. This would be great for deal flow.
• suyash 14y ago
  I don't need your money to work on my own idea. I'm enough by myself to do all the required work.
• MrKristopher 14y ago
  I am interested but do not see any way to contact hmexx. I'll check back later.
• hxf148 14y ago
  How do I get in touch with you? I was about to possibly undertake an idea that would fit well into your idea and offer.
• jv22222 14y ago
  I love this! The numbers are wrong though. Over time the developer will get resentful. Imagine that the developer created a SaaS site that brings in 50k a year, after a few years of dev (which I have). Anyone would feel resentful about paying an ongoing 50% "tax" to an initial investor. In the 50k/year scenario the investor get's a 5x on investment for years to come. That would be an awful feeling for the developer who's putting in the ongoing maintenance effort. A better idea would be for the investor to claim 50% until capital investment was recouped, then gradually scale back. - So, 50% until the $8k was paid back. - Then 25% until a 2x return. - Then move to a 10% ongoing royalty fee. This excites and incentives the developer to keep building things out knowing that one day they will get the the 90% lions share of profits. It also works for the investor who can rinse and repeat the process with multiple developers.
• orionblastar 14y ago
  Ah how about no? As tempting as it seems, a big project like that requires a team. A Lone Ranger cannot finish it in two months and even so it would not be of good quality and patched potential security holes. By the time the 'beta' is released to the public after two months, who exactly is the target market? You don't know what I am developing, you don't know who is going to use it, or who will pay for it, and of course no business plan either. Work on the business plan first, research the market doing a SWOTT (Strengths Weaknesses Opportunities Threats Trends), pick the platform and language best suited for the project, write the proof of concept or 'beta', and then recruit beta testers to work out the bugs, and then after patching all the bugs and security holes you can release it and raise money to go public or whatever. I'm not like these other guys, I have experience, I know what I am doing and how to turn a profit. I can smell failure like your offer. I don't want to create yet another Dotbomb that self-destructs. Sure I got countless project ideas, why don't I do at least one of them? Well I have to do a feasibility study and all I mentioned above. I've been throwing around project ideas with former business partners of mine. I ran two small businesses before, I've worked for FORTUNE 500 companies, I worked for small and medium businesses, I've worked for a college, I've done software consulting for the US Army and Federal Government. We don't do anything until we've done all the research first. As tempting as that $8000 offer is, I'd be doing 100% of the work writing the software, and then you get 50% of the stock. I put in $2M USD worth of labor for a multimillion dollar project, and for your $8000 you get half the stock? I can find users and promote my web site for free you know. Anyway thanks for the good laugh, I'd rather take my time and do it right than rush into two months with no research done at all.
  • ricardobeat 14y ago
    That wasn't a personal offer to you. Why are you wasting your time on HN? You're losing millions!
  • rficcaglia 14y ago
    I really do appreciate your overall point and caution, BUT I wouldn't exactly hold up the Feds or Fortune 500 companies as icons of rapid innovation (yes i too have worked with them and speak from grey hair - much of which was torn out weeding out useful info from reams of Reasearch documents :) The OP, has clearly touched on something, given the activity here, so kudos to him/her! I dont think you should have been downvoted, lest we prevent open and honest discourse. That said I would not laugh at blind ambition, however naieve; I'll bet on that over inaction any day!
• thatcherclay 14y ago
  Creative deal, I like it. Anything that gets people off their couch and building something is a winner in my book. This is something that I half completed, but stopped because I lacked the marketing chops: http://www.mailreceipts.com/ http://www.mailreceipts.com/
• IgorPartola 14y ago
  FWIW, I have a story of a better proposition. I currently do a lot of subcontract work for a consulting company. These guys have been around for a while, but to gain more exposure, so they have been wanting to publish some Open Source stuff. I've been working, on and off, on an interesting (to me, at least) project that I was planning to release under a BSD license and if it gains traction, turn it into a business. What the consultancy proposed was this: they would pay me to finish the project and publish it under their name. We would then market it as an OSS project, gaining more exposure for their firm and for the project. Later, if I choose to turn it into a business, I already have a potential partner who is intimately familiar with the project. If not, I get paid, and they get a cool OSS project to show off. This is strictly a better offer than the OP's: I get paid for about the same amount of time, and I get to keep 100% of the creation (so does everyone else, since it's Open Source). In other words everybody wins.
  • ZoFreX 14y ago
    > This is strictly a better offer than the OP's Is it available to everyone, though?
    • IgorPartola 14y ago
      Yes, anyone will be able to use the project for free and modify the code under a BSD license. Thus anyone can build a business off it if they choose. That is the risk I am taking. It is mitigated by the fact that the firm I am working with and I will be the ones most familiar with the code and free usage of this project will simply validate the idea. Edit: or do you mean the offer? If so, then no, currently just to me. Though if others could negotiate similar terms.
      • ZoFreX 14y ago
        I meant the offer. It does sound better, but there are lots of better offers out there, this one has lower barriers to entry though. I see it less as the route to go if you are an entrepreneur and more a good way of giving people the kick up the pants they need to start their journey.
• luney 14y ago
  What if we don't want money? Would you take less equity to simply help form the business and grow the product? I can afford to build and host a product that I would use. I am looking for someone that can validate and grow the business, leaving me to do what I am good at, which is Product.
• maxk42 14y ago
  Hi hmexx. I have a counter-proposition for you: I am a talented web developer who has made others millions of dollars, but I never do the same for myself for pretty much exactly the reasons you describe. I've launched one site successfully in the past, and it was profitable to the tune of beer money, but I never really wanted to make anything more complex in part because I'm terribly vexed by business requirements. I want to build a bunch of shit and throw it at the wall to see what sticks, but I don't want to deal with the business end of things. I require no financial investment -- I only ask that you use your time, contacts and expertise to promote the business. I'd be happy to discuss this at more length. I'd be happy to discuss this offer with anyone else as well. Contact me via the info in my profile for further details.
• joshuamcclure 14y ago
  This is a pretty cool idea. I'd be interested in discussing putting this into a system which allows the good ideas to rise to the top for a scholarship like this.
• aschroder 14y ago
  you could generalize this to crowdsourcing non-tech founders - call it kickstartup.com.
• damian2000 14y ago
  Why not save up the $8000 yourself. Take leave (without pay) from your day job and pay yourself a regular wage from that $5000. Work on your MVP for two months. When you're done, use the remaining $3000 to crowdsource some beta testers, get feedback and start some initial marketing to gain customers. Who needs the OP?
• volandovengo 14y ago
  I'll take you up on it - please shoot me a note.
• MarcM 14y ago
  I like the spirit of this opportunity. It is not for everyone, but it feels like a micro incubator that could work for some. It would be great to have a legal structure that is the equivalent the MVP you are asking your developers to build--the simplest agreement that works. Forming a new company for each seed project is too much overhead, but there are other techniques that could be cheap and effective.
• se85 14y ago
  1. 50/50 partnerships are absolutely dreadful for conflict resolution. 2. $3000 for marketing is nothing and will most likely get little results even if op is a marketing guru which does not appear to be the case.
• droithomme 14y ago
  Hell, I'll pay $5001 for a 50% total ownership of your entire new company and all its developed IP in perpetuity, provided I get to check out your secret idea in advance before deciding. That's a no brainer, and I'm even being honest about what you're getting, not saying it's $8000 when I'm actually paying $5000 for half of all your labor for however long it takes for you to get it all working, then investing $3000 on some hand wavy "marketing" thing.
• cientifico 14y ago
  I think that in 2013 is more important how you build it than what you build. The implementation become more important than the idea, so the ideas are overestimated. Things that can actually succeed: * A payable gmail alternative. * A payable mail list (I think 37 signas was working in to that). * A payable online book designer like (write in markdown and have a professinal like pdf output, epub, mobi...). * Online radios. There are a lot of labels that want to promote their new records, and a lot of music lovers that want to have their online radio. * A payable service that evaluates and give you reports about your internet connection. * Humble bundle as a service. * [1 thousand more] So... ideas there are a lot. Problem is decide which one to build or improve. There are for sure companies that do already all the previous examples, but small changes can become totally different products. The good products have people with good criteria behind. What i mean is that instead of looking for someone with good idea, is better to look for someone with good criteria. On any case, thanks for the initiative.
• luney 14y ago
  Out of curiosity. Do any developers reading this refer to themselves as "techie" ? Am I the only one who finds this term to be suspicious?
  • aaronevans 14y ago
    I hope hmexx isn't a developer. My one concern was that he might be.
• cientifico 14y ago
  I will not trust in someone to develop a product, that can not save 8000$ in one year and get 100% of the business. a) That guy is not able to save such money = Doesn't have real interest in the product. b) That guy is willing to share 50% the company, so probably doesn't trust on the idea as much as he/she can say. c) If that guy doesn't have the money, and can't get the money, is because is probably not good enough to develop such product. So if you want to pay as little at 8000 I really hope you where meaning it is not in America or Europe and it is in another country, where the base salary is lower than 500$.
• wanghq 14y ago
  Hi @hmexx, this is a great idea! ex-prj.com is my side-project and I hope you like it. Yes, the project is absolutely inspired by you. Thanks.
• panther2k 14y ago
  I threw together a matchmaking service based on the OP's premise. http://makermatch.herokuapp.com http://makermatch.herokuapp.com You sign up as either a 'Maker' or an 'Investor/Co-Founder/Other'. Makers post their idea and investors can click on the maker's name and send them a PM if they would like to start a dialogue. I started to set it up so that Investors can bid on ideas but haven't implemented that yet. If this is of interest to enough people, I'll work on it some more tomorrow and make it a bit more robust. Would be pretty cool if any new products/investments/co-founder teams come out of this. Shoot me a message if you have any thoughts on what I should build into it.
• fish2000 14y ago
  Ok, great! I've been spinning my wheels trying to create a flexible database architecture for image features – Where do I sign? Do you want to see my work-in-progress? But yeah, great! Do I get a check up front or like a stipend-style disbursement, and how often should we meet up?
• marcamillion 14y ago
  Out of curiosity, what about those that are not developers - but are still tech savvy (e.g. maybe they are growth hackers and have the marketing side down pat) do you offer similar terms just flipped? i.e. if someone wanted to get the funds to pay someone like myself to build their MVP, but based on their expertise, they would do the marketing - do you have any accomodations for that? If you do, and anyone is looking for a good MVP builder, I gladly offer 5KMVP's services.
• MWil 14y ago
  I'm late to the party apparently because I heard about this secondhand through reddit but I'm looking to build my MVP ASAP (and just started prototyping last week) You can watch a youtube video I made here http://youtu.be/3m194rui52Q http://youtu.be/3m194rui52Q email me at wilcut.matthew@gmail.com
• klangner 14y ago
  I think it is very interesting and creative offer. I am software developer who tried to build many different products. From my perspective money was never a problem. The problem was to find partner who knows how to promote and sell product. Or at least someone who want to learn it. IMHO this person is worth its 50%. Or 33% if there are 3 founders (marketing, programmer and graphics designer). Even without any up front money. So this $5000 makes this offer even better. For me this proposition would look better if instead of money it would contains some milestones. At each milestone we will define some metrics and based on this metrics we will decide if we move on or pivot/drop the idea. For example: M1. Agree on problem we want to solve and the way we reach our customers. I would love to change the world not just make money. Can we agree on it? etc. M2. Create and promote MVP. Example metrics: how many people clicked learn more button? Good partner is more worth then invested money. But that's of course my point of view. I don't need money and can spend half my time building the product (The other half need to make living :-) ) But I believe for many people it could be great offer. And I wish you best luck. Would love to hear how it turns out.
• chris123 14y ago
  Is there a draft agreement written yet? If so, can you share it with us and/or open source it so we can evaluate, fork, etc? Thks :)
• mmwanga 14y ago
  This is pretty good actually. With $5000 in the bank, you can spend the next 60 days not going hungry or worrying about rent and build that MVP. On the flip side, you should ask for < 50% to keep the controlling stake out of your hands.
• sglsgl 14y ago
  typical lottery : many will answer for very few $ spent :-)
• simonrbone 14y ago
  Hi hmexx - sounds like a great idea - like a mini MVP incubator! 2 things: 1. could you at least say where you are based, I take it the US if you are offering $ 2. after all the dust has settled would you be so kind as to repost and say how many applicants you got (perhaps broken down by idea sector) as I'm sure lots of people here would find this info useful/interesting
• zpk 14y ago
  Hmexx, I'm so late to the game responding here...but I like this idea a lot....From the investor side. I am in a similar boat as you, maybe we can pool resources up the ante and invest in several mvps. Let me know.
• hmexx 14y ago
  Can't edit the main article anymore, but here's a rally-point for future updates: http://hnproposition.blogspot.co.uk/ http://hnproposition.blogspot.co.uk/ Been emailed to everyone who contacted me. Hopefully has not hit too many spam boxes.
  • aaronevans 14y ago
    I never saw the email.
• phildionne 14y ago
  Startups are becoming a commodity. Am I alone seeing this?
• j0hnlucas 14y ago
  ha! I've had a very similar idea when I was being bugged by so many co-founders who were looking for equity based tech co-founders. I thought: so many startups have no skills to build their mvp so let's build it for them! I've then created a lean landing page to get feedback about the idea of building mvps for startups: mvpeers.com. A full-stack dev friend of mine was also involved in the experiment. I followed a totally lean approach: I started off with just a title and began posting my landing page in startup forums asking people what kind of information I should have put on the page. After a day I had a full page, signups and referrals. I've made a time lapse of the page itself for fun :) http://j0hnlucas.tumblr.com/post/22121212880/git-time-lapse http://j0hnlucas.tumblr.com/post/22121212880/git-time-lapse re premise 2: I believe a lone coder is not all it takes to create a successful mvp, you need to have experience with lean concepts. Building "just enough" and finding real insight from feedback are not easy tasks. I spent a month or so gathering online and offline feedback and tried to close deals with customers but then gave up. My takeaway: 1. first timer startuppers are so naive sometimes that they believe they are making you - an experienced coder - a favour by sharing their idea with you. So 50-50 is not even obvious to them (even without any cash!) 2. first time startuppers don't have much money. 3. more experienced startuppers who understand real value in mvps tend to partner up with someone who can code. All this said, I still believe there must be a niche for selling these services if awareness is raised properly. It's important to find the right customers who are educated enough to understand the value of a good mvp and have up to $10k to put on an idea.
• j45 14y ago
  I'm wondering if there's been an offer like this before on HN. It's so simple, reasonable, and plausible that I tried searching for more and couldn't find any. hmexx, if there's a way a cofounder should find a technical co-founder, this looks to be one way. Please keep posting about your experience, I think it's eye opening and worthy of ongoing reflection.
• rficcaglia 14y ago
  Premise 2: (not being snarky - genuine scientific inquiry) do you have data to back that up? That would be very interesting indeed. Does AL have an API to get data on their portfolio? PG - why not make a YC api available and put data out there....yeah i know the answer already (that was snarky) Hey, there's an $8000 idea for some young buck - go build the data api for VCs/angels to submit each of their projects and update them with performance metrics .... Then devs and founders can slice through the powerpoints and see real data on the value they add .... and can compare to random chance. We promise not to share with CalPERS ;) wait i just saw a flying pig...
• thar2012 14y ago
  Let me know whats your thought on this proposition. http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5043742 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5043742
• _uoi8 14y ago
  Essentially you want to get lucky! :) In my opinion, the success of a start-up is determined by: 1. Co-founder chemistry (how well they know each other, shared vision etc.). With this approach, you'll have no idea what your "so-called" co-founder is like. BIG risk! 2. A vision. Not sure how you can even run a company without having a vision of what you like to do, or what problem you're going to solve. At best, you can be an investor but not a co-founder. And unless you're well networked and bring something valuable to the table, not sure 8k means a lot; and 50% equity for that is too high. 3. Execution - LOT of work. Not sure a startup is as simple as you make it sound. A prototype for 5k + customers for 3k = success? I agree the cost of building a tech. start-up has gone down significantly, but IMO it takes a lot beyond that. Unless you have advantage of owning a groundbreaking idea/IP or something with high barriers of entry it all comes down to execution. 4. The right support and network. 5. And yes, luck! ...having said that, think there is still a chance (however small it is) that it might just work and you might get lucky, but what are the odds?
• Tycho 14y ago
  I will contribute an idea if anyone wants to use it: somebody should make a website for people to arrange adhoc day-trips with strangers. Sometimes at the weekend I think I would like to catch a train to some city in Britain that i've never been to - say Bath, or Durham. But I don't really have anyone to go with, and traveling on your own is a bit dull. If you could sign up to a weekend 'away party' online and head off to the destination with some basic itenary, it would be cool. If everyone is in the same boat then it's not awkward going with strangers. Call it DayTripper.com or something.
• chrisyeh 14y ago
  Let's walk through hmexx's premises. Premise 1, that investors overestimate their ability to pick good ideas is undoubtedly true. The best investors are still usually wrong. But the consistent returns that the Sequoias of the world suggest that even if they're usually wrong, they're right enough to make oodles of money. Premise 2, that an MVP built by a lone founder is just as likely to succeed as a full team on AngelList is almost certainly false. Years of research have demonstrated that founding teams help success. A lone founder can certainly succeed, but is less likely to do so. Premise 3, that freelancers don't pursue their ideas is absolutely true. Premise 4, that HackerNews has talented people with good ideas is also absolutely true. Now comes the key--he's offering $8K (plus the value of his marketing expertise) for 50% of the company. Let's be generous and assume the marketing consulting is worth $7K. If the average seed investor is paying a $5 million premoney these days, that's a 99.7% discount! Even if a sole founder is 1% as likely to succeed as an AngelList startup, he'll still be 3X ahead. My conclusion is that hmexx is a marketing genius. He's found a way to buy stock at a 99%+ discount. Also, he's still going to apply a selection process--if Premise 1 were true, he ought to choose at random. Hmmm, maybe I should invest in him! Also, just to add to the scrum, I'll double the offer to $10,000!
  • aaronevans 14y ago
    Problem is, no one believes you.
    • chrisyeh 14y ago
      My investing bona fides: https://angel.co/chrisyeh https://angel.co/chrisyeh
• makeautocadfast 14y ago
  MVP? Minimum viable product. I have an idea. I'm not sure you could call it a minimum viable product. Maybe you know. I'm very good at AutoLISP programming. I' m trying to make a business out of it. Do you know AutoLISP? It is a the programing language of AutoCAD. Working with AutoCAD. That is the problem. It takes a long time before an AutoCAD drawing is created. And that is not all. Once the AutoCAD drawing has been created, it must be checked. So creating a drawing in AutoCAD takes a lot of time. I could write a program in AutoLISP. The program creates an AutoCAD drawing in no time. And there is no need to check the drawing. Who could be interested in what I'm doing? Who could be my customers? Well. That is easy. AutoCAD users are interested. I'm now promoting my business. I'm trying to find customers for my business. But I'm not very successful up till now. I have opened an AutoLISP blog and I have opened an AutoLISP newsletter. Every week I post a different article on them. I also have written a demo AutoLISP program that I give away to people that are interested. And I have written an AutoLISP paper. Right now I want to find subscribers for my blog and for my newsletter. Maybe you have some suggestions for me. You had a proposal. You are willing to invest a total of $ 8,000 in my business. And if we are successful, you will be my 50% partner. I think it is a fair proposal. I can agree with that proposal. But my business idea. Do you think it is any good?
• makeautocadfast 14y ago
  Sorry. My e-mail address: makeautocadfast@ymail.com Jos van Doorn
• mariaslickflick 14y ago
  Who are 'you'?
• vccafe 14y ago
  It's a really interesting investing scheme for Hmexx, but this is no co-founder partnership... The HN Proposition compelled me to write "Indecent proposals" for startup founders - http://www.vccafe.com/2013/01/17/indecent-proposal-for-startup-founders/ http://www.vccafe.com/2013/01/17/indecent-proposal-for-start...
• TheFoundersHive 14y ago
  I believe that could be ideal for some people but click this and see an alternative deal/option http://www.thefoundershive.com/how-it-works/ http://www.thefoundershive.com/how-it-works/
• jyf1987 14y ago
  i do think a resource providing is more suite. 8k dollar is not a large number for those programmer if you could provide a large amazone ec2 or other needed resource for us, that would be more cool than just the money and could reduce the cost more
• b3b0p 14y ago
  I like this idea and I think a lot of people have thought of it before. Congratulations to actually come out and post it on Hacker News though. I would be all over this, but right now I'm lost on ideas. I'd do it in a heart beat though.