8 ms·

If I work for you, and you don't fire him, I quit. That we're even discussing this has me looking at the door. I'm not sure you can do anything to redeem not

• purplelobster 14y ago
  Firing somebody in the UK is very difficult. No matter how aggravated he is, if the law is not on his side then there's nothing he can do.
  • sergiosgc 14y ago
    Firing people in Portugal is also hell, but loopholes exist in every law; I'm sure it's not different in the UK. My favorite, which also appears applicable to this case is: promote him into a top managerial position, then fire him for breach of trust (top managerial positions require trust from shareholders, the board and the CEO) Speak to a lawyer, though. IANAL, obviously.
    • elithrar 14y ago
      > My favorite, which also appears applicable to this case is: promote him into a top managerial position, then fire him for breach of trust (top managerial positions require trust from shareholders, the board and the CEO) You can't retroactively apply "breach of trust" in this situation though, and promoting him with the intention of firing him (which would be obvious) won't help your case.
  • ChuckMcM 14y ago
    I am not familiar at all with UK law, in California you can show someone the door because they hum out of tune if you want, its the other side of the 'right to work' thing. But if you, or someone reading, knows UK law, is there anything that prevents you from renting an separate office with a telephone and re-assigning him to work in that office? Still pay him and all but just keep him out of the way where he can't do any more damage.
    • njs12345 14y ago
      The UK has restrictions on why you can fire people (unlike CA which is at will), but they're largely quite fair (IMO). See https://www.gov.uk/dismissal/overview https://www.gov.uk/dismissal/overview
      • martythemaniak 14y ago
        According to that link you can be fired for "Gross Misconduct", which seems about right in this case.
        • ramtamtam 14y ago
          I don't see how screwing around has anything to do with professional conduct.
    • asveikau 14y ago
      > in California you can show someone the door because they hum out of tune if you want, Really? So you can show them the door for anything then? In California, can you fire someone for their racial background? For their gender? For their age? Religion? Family status? I suspect a lot of this thread is just a bunch of software types pretending to know what the law is (myself included). Best advice on this whole discussion: talk to a lawyer.
      • deleted 14y ago
        [deleted]
  • njs12345 14y ago
    IANAL, but I'm fairly sure a tribunal would look quite favourably on a company which fired someone for adultery when it had destroyed working relationships. I think it would come under the 'gross misconduct' provision.
  • chernevik 14y ago
    If the OP cannot legally fire this guy then it is time to depart that jurisdiction. Law prevents the OP from just shooting the bastard, and rightly so. We surrender whatever right we may have to fight and kill on own our behalf, in return for protection from others and enforcement of just outcomes. The point is to remove our personal biases from interpretation of "just". But if the sovereign jurisdiction won't allow this guy to fire someone who has done this, then its "law" has departed from its proper functions and can't be relied upon. I don't know what it is doing, but it isn't overseeing justice. I wouldn't wait to find out how it goes wrong next. I'd just leave.
    • onetwothreefour 14y ago
      Oh please, leave the jurisdiction? With his 30-40 employees? I'm sure he's gonna get right on that. The guy is fireable in any country.
      • elithrar 14y ago
        > The guy is fireable in any country. Not at all. As aforementioned, you can't legally fire him in the UK (or Australia). Doing so would immediately welcome a legal battle with Fair Work (in Australia) and your chances of winning that one are slim to none.
        • clarky07 14y ago
          I'm not familiar with the law in the UK. Could someone fill me in? I'm confused as to how someone can be forced to continue to give money to someone that they don't want to continue giving money to? What if I decide I can't afford those employees because we aren't making enough money? Surely I can close down the business if I want to, effectively firing everyone?
          • bzbarsky 14y ago
            > What if I decide I can't afford those employees because > we aren't making enough money? Then in various jurisdictions you have to prove that. In court. See item 1 of http://www.nytimes.com/2006/03/28/world/europe/28iht-letter.html http://www.nytimes.com/2006/03/28/world/europe/28iht-letter.... and this sort of thing is not limited to France. The US setup of at-will employment looks just as weird on that side of the Atlantic, I'm told, as theirs does to us. I can't tell you what the setup is with being able to close down a business. It wouldn't terribly surprise me if there are legal hurdles to that too.
  • richardjordan 14y ago
    As someone who's worked in HR in the UK (albeit 15 years ago) and hired and fired people there I can see zero reason to not fire the guy.
    • mrtron 14y ago
      As someone who considered law in his teens 15 year ago, I see zero reason to consider this valid legal advice.
      • richardjordan 14y ago
        as someone who never claimed it to be legal advice I fail to see why you SHOULD consider it valid legal advice doesn't mean I wouldn't fire the guy's ass because I have yet to see a plausible argument for what negative legal consequences might befall me if I did
• amackera 14y ago
  That he's thinking about this situation this hard and is trying to find a safe path through this emotional minefield makes me respect him more than if he had simply fired his employee out of passion. I don't agree that firing his employee outright would show the same strength of character, though I understand your point of view.
• richardjordan 14y ago
  Dead right. If I'm an employee and you don't fire the guy I'm following the ex wife out the door.
  • gamechangr 14y ago
    well said
• colanderman 14y ago
  If your co-worker sleeps with your wife, can you ask your boss to fire him? Just because he's a manager and makes hiring decisions based on technical abilities doesn't give him the power to exact revenge for personal problems.
  • fatbird 14y ago
    Actually, in any at-will employment state in the U.S., he certainly does have the power, just because he's a manager. I'd go so far as to say that in all the U.S., he has a right to fire the guy; he just might have to give him severance because 'fucking my wife' isn't 'for cause'. And on a practical level, no one could reasonably expect him to continue working with, let alone managing someone who'd done this, in this small a company.
    • shawn-butler 14y ago
      I believe the supreme court of Iowa recently ruled that an employer (a dentist I believe) was not wrong to fire an female employee to whom he found himself irresistably sexually attracted. According to court docs, his wife wanted her fired and he did so. [0] Dentist had made some pretty dumb comments that could probably count as a hostile work environment but he wasn't liable for wrongful termination. Obviously doesn't apply anywhere but Iowa but interesting nonetheless. [0]: http://www.iowacourts.gov/Supreme_Court/Recent_Opinions/20121221/11-1857.pdf http://www.iowacourts.gov/Supreme_Court/Recent_Opinions/2012...
  • donw 14y ago
    This isn't about revenge. It's about dealing with a breech of trust and a massive conflict of interest. I don't want my business depending on someone I can't trust, especially if that someone is going to be on the opposite side of a massive legal battle (divorce, in this case). The owner of the company would be irresponsible to allow his employee to continue while the situation is unresolved; at a minimum, he'd be suspended until after the divorce proceedings complete. Frankly, I'd get rid of him on the deception and dishonesty alone, because keeping that kind of employee around is a disservice to the rest of the company.
• hnriot 14y ago
  You're implying some pretty serious things here, and entirely it's entirely unwarranted. This kind of armchair analysis is really disturbing to read, it's the same with anything legal, when all it becomes amateur hour at the law. Getting screened for depression and psychological disorders is just rude and callous. You've not factored into your analyss the wife's role in all this or what might have motivated her to have an affair with this employee. All factors which you've completely neglected to consider... It's even more sad that this is the top comment. All these chest banging alpha make wanna bees
  • donw 14y ago
    No, those are good advice. Boss Man has just suffered a massive psychological shock, and needs to manage his mental state properly. Not talking to a psychiatrist would be crazy.
    • yannis 14y ago
      Talking to a psychologist is not a panacea. The sane thing to do, is to talk to the employee and tell him that the __minimum__ you expect from the guy is to hand in his resignation and leave within the hour. Failing which I would have fired him.
      • lostlogin 14y ago
        Psychologist or psychiatrist. The latter is a rather serious turn of events...
• brudgers 14y ago
  That this sort of psychobabble internet diagnosis is the top comment disproves all theories supporting the wisdom of crowds. Dealing sensibly with a spouses sleeping around is not a pathology. Neither is dealing sensibly with a friend or colleague who participated.
  • chernevik 14y ago
    The OP: "every time I see his face, I feel like that just kills me inside." We are discussing a situation as postulated. That postulate is a deep betrayal of trust and enormous emotional damage. Maybe _your_ reaction would be different, and those are your values, and that's fine. If I worked with you and knew your sexual mores were such that this was no big deal for you, my reaction could well be different. But that isn't the case here.
    • tedunangst 14y ago
      What if the boss had said, "I just found out a favorite employee is gay. Now every time I see him, I'm terribly upset because I know he's going to burn in hell. I feel so betrayed that someone I trusted is so immoral. Should I fire him?"
      • Karn 14y ago
        The two aren't even remotely related. Being gay is a strictly individual choice that has no effect on the employee's performance or that of other employees. Sleeping with the spouse of a co-worker immediately and intimately involves the co-worker and is devastating to them. I don't even begin to see how you could compare the two.
        • brudgers 14y ago
          Sleeping with someone's spouse is far more of a choice than being gay.
          • Karn 14y ago
• nonissue 14y ago
  Goddamn, created an account to reply to this. Can't believe how stupidly judgemental and absolute you're being. There is absolutely nothing wrong with taking your time, thinking about this rationally and approaching it with a cool head. It's complicated, it's way more complicated than just "FIRE HIM." Your comment is ridiculous. Slow your roll. Don't just run around saying people need therapy.
• gebe 14y ago
  This wouldn't hold at all where I am from. Also I don't get your point at all to be honest, it's completely disconnected from work. Even though it may feel like a personal betrayal I just don't see how this is work related.
• deleted 14y ago
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• pasbesoin 14y ago
  You'd better also plan and execute a... "due diligence" with your business/technology, before and during termination. This fellow has to know termination is a possibility, and while he continues to work there -- and given the attitude he's already expressed -- who knows what "mines"/"bombs"/"trapdoors" he may be putting in place. Maybe he's not that sort of fellow. But... he already slept with your wife. And... he's not willing to take the initiative and bow out gracefully, now that this is known.