12 ms·

How should I deal with an employee who has slept with my wife?

147 points by DigitalSea 14y ago

nvr219 14y ago
The guy in the OP values his company over all other personal relationships it seems.
- JesseObrien 14y ago
  If you read it you'd know his wife left him. After that, what relationships do you have left?
  - nvr219 14y ago
    There is the relationship between the owner and the employee. From the question it sounds like the owner doesn't want to dissolve this relationship (at least in part) due to the negative impact on his company.
- enjo 14y ago
  If he's willing to sleep with the damn owners wife, what else is he willing to do? Cheat? Steal? At best he's a poison to the culture.
  - baddox 14y ago
    Why would a romantic affair have any correlation to stealing?
    - dickbasedregex 14y ago
      If you are willing to have an affair with someone else's spouse, especially when that person has been a mentor and championed you by promoting you, you're probably pretty devoid of any loyalty or moral fiber. And then to refuse to leave? Yeah, you can assume that person is completely untrustworthy in any regard. Note, I'm not referring to a single mistake in a moment of weakness but an ongoing affair.
      - baddox 14y ago
        I get the tautology that if you can't be trusted then you can't be trusted, but I still don't see any reason to believe this would extend to something like theft.
Benferhat 14y ago
What's the point of owning the company if you can't fire the guy who cuckolded you? Come on! If you were into it, it'd be another story.
deleted 14y ago
[deleted]
mrslx 14y ago
Open an office in a warzone and assign him there. He doesn't accept, fire.
- mrslx 14y ago
  ... imagine the reference check...
andyl 14y ago
Consult your attorney, train a replacement, fire the guy. The breach of trust can never be repaired. How can this decision take more than ten seconds?
tptacek 14y ago
Here is a more interesting question: You're the boss. Your immediate report is the competent VP/Engineer. His report, the company's best dev, is the one who committed the personal-life transgression against him. The two will never work together well again. Now what?
- rscale 14y ago
  In such a situation, I'd figure out what I'd do if (best developer) got hit by a bus, and proceed from there.
  - jessaustin 14y ago
    As in, you'd hire a bus driver?
    - austingunter 14y ago
      As in, "I'd figure out how to keep the company successful and growing after one of my employees suddenly wasn't there any longer."
      - jessaustin 14y ago
        whoosh!
- optimus 14y ago
  How is that more interesting? You'd consider canning the _competent_ VP/Engineer, adding insult to injury? C'mon.
  - salemh 14y ago
    I think he is showing a more obvious solution that removes his own emotional investment by reframing the situation.
  - yen223 14y ago
rscale 14y ago
I find it very, very strange that his first stop wasn't an employment lawyer. He has an employee with a demonstrated willingness to lie about the most important of things, to cause massive distraction and disruption, and to do so with little regret. What else isn't he telling you? If he really doesn't believe he can fire this guy, he has a succession planning problem that needs to be solved.
georgemcbay 14y ago
To be completely blunt, if someone has to ask a question like this on stackexchange and he didn't fire the other guy immediately (or at least after consulting a lawyer to cross the Ts and dot the Is), I'm not entirely surprised that he isn't "doing it" for his wife. This isn't meant to excuse her cheating in any way as I believe cheating is a cowardly and inexcusable way to get out of a relationship that isn't working, but c'mon. For what it is worth, I'd advocate firing if the guy found out an employee was cheating on any other employee, so while it would be impossible to separate your feelings in his situation, I think it is the right action regardless of who got cheated on. Talk about workplace poison and unethical behavior!
zalew 14y ago
what happened to beat the crap out of him?
mtraven 14y ago
Promote the guy to sales, he's clearly a closer.
- DannyBee 14y ago
  Reddit is over that way.
hugh4life 14y ago
Challenge him to a duel.
scottmagdalein 14y ago
Option #1: Ask him (face to face) to talk with him privately, punch him as hard as you can right in the nose, then talk to an employment lawyer to make sure you're in the clear to dismiss him for a breach of professional trust. Option #2: Most of #1, but (instead of an employment lawyer) demote him to the mail room so he'll resign (no severance or unemployment). Also, never allow a single person, however trustworthy, to be so indispensable to your business that you can't thrive without them.
- dickbasedregex 14y ago
  > Also, never allow a single person, however trustworthy, to be so indispensable to your business that you can't thrive without them. So many times this!
- gnu8 14y ago
  #2 is more complicated than you think. It would be seen as a constructive dismissal, basically equivalent to a termination. Only a lawyer can properly advise if this is a good idea. I'm going to type the words a few more times for emphasis: lawyer lawyer lawyer lawyer lawyer lawyer lawyer lawyer up.
  - greenyoda 14y ago
    If this is happening in the U.S., then the employee is probably an "at-will" employee, who can be fired for any reason whatsoever - as long as you're not discriminating against him based on his sex, religion, or membership in some other legally protected class. People who've slept with your wife are not a protected class under law.
    - gnu8 14y ago
      The point is giving an employee nothing useful to do so that they resign may be the same as terminating them, so they might still be entitled to severance or unemployment benefits.
- lallysingh 14y ago
escaped_reddit 14y ago
Did your wife leave because you found out or did the employee sleep with ur wife after she left?
deleted 14y ago
[deleted]
- swift 14y ago
  You cannot be serious. You cannot go through life letting people walk all over you and abuse your trust. Your approach isn't "better than most alternatives"; it's encouraging him to accept the role of victim. Life is too short for THAT.
solusglobus 14y ago
From evolutionary point of view, the employee has dominated him by taking over his wife from him. Therefore he will naturally feel inferior. The employee's dominance is reflected in his subtle arrogance with no sign of remorse. He should man up and fire him or he is just a pushover, Mr. Nice Guy (http://www.amazon.com/No-More-Mr-Nice-Guy/dp/0762415339 http://www.amazon.com/No-More-Mr-Nice-Guy/dp/0762415339).
- zalew 14y ago
  not sure why someone downvoted you.
  - drivebyacct2 14y ago
    Because we're more mature than this "puff out your chest, be a man and get the girl" crap. And of course your other comment here is "beat the crap out of him". Wow.
    - solusglobus 14y ago
      This is more than just "puff out your chest, be a man and get the girl". This whole event is rooted in evolutionary psychology. The power dynamics has unconsciously shifted towards the employee. This is like a power frame which is adopted in Pitch Anything (http://www.amazon.com/Pitch-Anything-Innovative-Presenting-Persuading/dp/0071752854 http://www.amazon.com/Pitch-Anything-Innovative-Presenting-P...). To overcome a power frame, you need to break it. If not, he will always submit to the employee's power frame unconsciously. This is not good for his productivity, his leadership, his being as a man and ultimately his company. One way to break the employee's power frame is to fire him.
      - hnriot 14y ago
        You're neglecting the wife in this armchair psychology. There's a much mor complex power dynamic going on entirely.
rbanffy 14y ago
Sleep with his daughter? Wait for him to marry your ex and sleep with her again? Hire an outplacement company and place him inside a competitor you particularly dislike? Seriously: why employ someone you can't trust?
chernevik 14y ago
If I work for you, and you don't fire him, I quit. That we're even discussing this has me looking at the door. I'm not sure you can do anything to redeem not having already fired the guy. If you won't stand up for yourself here, I don't know when you will. I certainly don't know when you would stand up for me. Get a lawyer and do it right. But fire him. ALSO: Maybe more important. Get yourself into therapy of some kind. Immediately. Get screened for depression and pyschological disorder. That you are even asking this question suggests that your priorities and self-image have departed from normal ranges in unhealthy ways. Never mind the goddam business. You aren't even living your life. Something is seriously haywire. If you don't go to work on it you are going to end up a very sad and strange story.
- purplelobster 14y ago
  Firing somebody in the UK is very difficult. No matter how aggravated he is, if the law is not on his side then there's nothing he can do.
  - sergiosgc 14y ago
    Firing people in Portugal is also hell, but loopholes exist in every law; I'm sure it's not different in the UK. My favorite, which also appears applicable to this case is: promote him into a top managerial position, then fire him for breach of trust (top managerial positions require trust from shareholders, the board and the CEO) Speak to a lawyer, though. IANAL, obviously.
    - elithrar 14y ago
      > My favorite, which also appears applicable to this case is: promote him into a top managerial position, then fire him for breach of trust (top managerial positions require trust from shareholders, the board and the CEO) You can't retroactively apply "breach of trust" in this situation though, and promoting him with the intention of firing him (which would be obvious) won't help your case.
  - ChuckMcM 14y ago
pm 14y ago
Fire him. However, how you handle it is of the utmost importance. The truth is, not only will you not be able to work with him, but once it gets out to the company, everyone else will begin asking, "Why hasn't he been fired?". If you avoid that decision, you will very quickly begin to lose the trust of your employees, as they'll think you're indecisive and that your employee is the one with hand. If you decide to continue working with him, the employee will continue to undermine you at work. And then he'll leave, start his own company doing the same product, and bring three quarters of your best devs with him, because they think you've lost your edge. So get it the fuck together, fire him, and make a public statement that his firing was due to a lack of personal integrity and make it clear that you won't tolerate that kind of personal betrayal. Details can be spared, because those kinds of rumours spread faster than diseases through a workplace. This is a pure power play. Don't let him win.
- pm 14y ago
  Also, consult with a lawyer before doing anything (that should go without saying), but do it quick and your goal should be getting him out of there as fast as possible.
- coopdog 14y ago
  Great advice, you're right that there's a chance that he could lose the entire company over this. There's a chance he can't fire him, in which case he should probably contain him in a room doing menial tasks and receiving written warnings whenever they aren't satisfactory (3 warnings = can be fired where I live). Either way dealing with it head on is the only way to keep everyone's respect. If he takes everyone's advice and deals with it, but also has the benefit of patience and wisdom to ask before acting (not sure I could), that's probably the most respect deserving course of all.
  - pm 14y ago
    I would suggest patience insofar as he can collect his thoughts to focus enough on the sitatuion at hand without getting bitter, and execute a plan with cold ruthlessness. Whether he likes it or not, his employee is now an adversary, and his wife is only the beginning. It's like the old lion being ejected from the pride because his time has come. He's taken his wife, why not take his company? Just like a serial killer, he's only going to escalate.
dkokelley 14y ago
I think the only correct answer is to talk to a lawyer and determine the best way to legally terminate the employee. Also, another lawyer should be involved to settle matters between the company owner and unfaithful wife. Things could reach another level of complicated if the wife decides she wants a say in the matter. Does she own any portion of the company, or have a voice in how it is operated? The end action is obvious (to me). It's the legal minefield of steps necessary to get to that action that the owner needs to carefully consider (with the advice of sound legal council).
jetti 14y ago
The wife is the one at fault, not the employee. Chances are that if the employee said 'no', then the wife would've found somebody else to sleep with. The wife was the one who took a vow to remain faithful, not the employee.
- Frozenlock 14y ago
  I don't know why you got downvoted. When you have a relationship with a man/woman, it's with this individual, not with every single other human being on the planet. If I'm not with anyone and I try to seduce your girlfriend, it's HER job to say no. Unless you don't think she is smart enough to make her own decisions. But in this case we have other problems... As opposed to jetti, I'm not sure the wife would just have found somebody else. But regardless, she was the one in couple with the boss. I'm confused by most of the reactions I see here. It's as if they expect the boss to be able to tell employees who they can fuck. Kudos to this boss for at least considering that firing the guy is not the only solution.
  - MordinSolus 14y ago
    > As opposed to jetti, I'm not sure the wife would just have found somebody else. Irrelevant. Here's the problem: "At the same time, every time I see his face, I feel like that just kills me inside." It is silly to think that this doesn't affect productivity and won't affect the business in the future, especially with communication between these two individuals. A person's well being does is in fact a work matter, the acknowledgment of which makes the employees position absolutely untenable. You cannot possibly sleep with a fellow employee's spouse (regardless of whether it is a superior or not) and not expect that to be a work matter. > It's as if they expect the boss to be able to tell employees who they can fuck. This isn't about telling the employee who they can fuck. It's about fostering a productive and positive work environment. Knowingly choosing to create animosity between yourself and a superior (or any fellow employee for that matter) in such a hurtful manner is simply stupid. This employee should be fired immediately.
    - Frozenlock 14y ago
fooooobar 14y ago
I would give him a pay raise for outing my wife as untrustworthy. You already know your employees only continue to show up because you pay them money and you only hire them because you profit from their work. Your spouse on the other hand, was in what was supposed to be a committed relationship where she would stick with you even if you were broke.
jpeg_hero 14y ago
Very surprised nobody has mentioned "at will" employment. .. or as my old employment law professor used to say: You can require all of your employees to wear purple shirts. And then the next day when one of them shows up wearing purple, you can fire him for wearing purple.
edouard1234567 14y ago
Was your wife working for the company? A lot of companies forbid husband and wife to work for the company at the same time.
dancole 14y ago
> I'm the owner of a business [...] If he divorces his wife, could she potentially get part ownership of the company?
- pdonis 14y ago
  IANAL, but I think it depends on the state (or country) and how the business is set up (are any shares of stock in her name or held jointly?).
MrMcDowall 14y ago
Law No. 2 of The 48 Laws of Power could have made you more wary about this situation: Never put too much trust in friends; learn how to use enemies. [0] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_48_Laws_of_Power http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_48_Laws_of_Power
- mahmud 14y ago
  Robert Greene and his Machiavellian bullshit. The sooner you ignore that conniving crap the happier you will live.
tyang 14y ago
Besides the obvious answer of firing him or making his life so miserable he'll quit, etc., here's an out of the box idea (I don't know if the preceding 38 comments touch on this - if they did, that validates my idea a bit): What about the idea of selling the company to him or firing yourself with a nice, generous severance or golden parachute? One possibility is that you don't yet respect yourself as much as you could. Another is he may be more important than you right now. A third is that you will start messing up at work if you keep him around, so you are future value add will at some point be less than his. Any of these three possibilities suggest that the company is better off with him staying and you leaving. That said, my first suggestion for you is to get a good therapist. Get some help from your real friends and family (parents? siblings?) And when you man up, fire his ass. Good luck. You seem like a good person intent on doing what is right for all but it may be time to do what's right for yourself.
rossjudson 14y ago
Give the asker a bit of a break. He just got run over by a truck, and some are taking him to task for not bouncing right back up and picking a fight. He got run over by a frickin' truck. Emotionally. He's looking for reassurance and contact with others. Once he heals, he'll be the kind of person who put a 40-man company together again, and he'll do what needs to be done.
tedunangst 14y ago
Looks like there is an exception to the rule that "my private life is none of my employer's business, no exceptions".
- dredmorbius 14y ago
  The exception is and always has been "until it materially affects performance".
  - tedunangst 14y ago
    It sounds like its only affecting performance because the employer has chosen to make it affect performance. Look at all the comments from people saying if the boss doesn't fire the employee (perhaps because its not affecting performance) they'd quit because the boss has no backbone. Where's the job performance related justification for that?
    - dredmorbius 14y ago
      What part of people leaving a company on account of the breach of trust between a co-worker and the boss, and the related loss of institutional knowledge and incurred replacement recruiting costs, don't constitute a business impact. It's not necessary for the impact to be on the productivity of the employee whose behavior is in question. Say, an employee starts showing up at work in tactical combat gear with various hate slogans put up around their workplace and on their car, which make other employees understandably scared. Or sexual harassment creating a hostile work environment for others. In neither case would the offender necessarily be the one whose productivity is impacted. I'd support termination in either case, however.
checker659 14y ago
How about he sell the company and move on?
kevinalexbrown 14y ago
I'll lead the specific advice to SE, but one general observation: If he's actually that valuable, this is a great reason to spread responsibility, coach newer employees, and invest in other people besides your indispensable "rockstar/ninja/guru" before you might have to let them go for a non-performance-based liability, like suspicions of fraud, etc.
- joeblau 14y ago
  Yeah I totally agree. Separation of duties and rotation of duties is actually a pretty important security measure that should be employed at any company. When there is one person that does/knows it all-everything rises and falls on that employee; even your morality.
jessaustin 14y ago
This is a good story to know, just to motivate decision-makers to get the business on a no-indispensibles footing. It's more... vivid than the hit-by-a-bus scenario. If I might put on my amateur-analyst's hat, if your employee fucked your wife, there is a very good chance that he's been fucking you for much longer. A fresh-from-college hire might very well test his boss to see what he can get away with in the first few months on the job, especially if the employee plays the central business role described here. In many situations that youthful experimentation can be indulged, within reason. In this situation indulgence became pathological, and the employee was trapped in a cycle of escalating transgression. You have sown the wind with this employee. The second professional you should retain, after a lawyer (and indeed this will be a good lawyer's advice) is a private investigator. This guy has been robbing you. If this employee has access to business computers, that investigator should be skilled in forensic computer security. If the employee has access to the books, you'll need a forensic accountant. You might not be able to fire this guy for the ultimate transgression, but you'll definitely be able to fire him (and possibly refer him to prosecutors) for all the steps that led up to it. If your spirit is so broken by now that you can't contemplate the above then maybe you should just sell the business. It would be nice if you could keep the proceeds away from the ex, but that seems unlikely.
richardjordan 14y ago
This is stupid. You fire the guy and I'd take the pepsi challenge on any really unlikely legal issues that arise (which they wouldn't). If this is even a question for you I genuinely believe you're not cut out to be a CEO and you should take plan B - promote the guy to CEO and slink off into the background yourself.
deleted 14y ago
[deleted]
dchichkov 14y ago
I think one should be more careful posting such stuff 'anonymously'. It looks like there is enough bits of information here, to identify the original poster. Owner of the company with 30-40 employees; technology company; oldest employee in the company was recruited straight from the university; divorced; likely UK; likely has another account on stack-exchange; writing style.
- MartinCron 14y ago
  This may be the only valuable bit of advice posted here.
- rehack 14y ago
  How do you know that, the 'anonymous' poster has not posted this to shame the bastard and the ex-wife?... Doubt a small (30-40 employee) tech company's employees don't spend any time on stackexchange or on HN. And the poster has left just enough clues for his target audience (other employees and his and his ex-wife personal friends) to figure out things. At the same time he is within limits such that he is legally safe (against any defamation suits). One can't be sure, but if this posting, indeed was a shaming strategy. I would say good solid punch. Bang on the face.
lousy_sysadmin 14y ago
Adultery isn't punishable legally in some places...really? This is the first time I heard this. I'm talking about married couple, adultery here. Wasn't marriage a "legal contract"? In this case does it mean that if the couple were to be divorced, the guy still need to pay alimony et cetera?
- tomku 14y ago
  There are two separate issues here, adultery as a crime and adultery as a breach of contract. I'll talk about US laws, since they're the ones I'm most familiar with. Adultery as a crime is still surprisingly common, but going away fast. Prosecutions for it in Western countries are extremely rare, and the laws making it illegal in 23 US states are just waiting to be challenged and overthrown. Most people seem to think that it's not the government's business to decide that all husbands and wives must remain faithful or be fined/jailed. Adultery as a breach of contract is a little trickier, because a marriage contract is a special kind of contract that covers things that normal contracts can't. You can't sue someone for breaching their marriage vows, but you can divorce them. In the past, you needed grounds (such as adultery) to do so, but no-fault divorces are available now in every US state and several other Western countries. Whether adultery is factored into decisions about alimony depends on the jurisdiction - some do, some don't. It's a tricky issue, and relationships (particularly rocky ones) tend to be more complex than rigid rules can allow for. On a more general point, I think that you'd have a hard time convincing a judge that lifetime sexual exclusivity is something you can sign away in any normal legal contract. Marriage gets special treatment to allow for things like that, but the trade-off is that we expect married couples to try to deal with their own issues rather than getting the courts involved immediately.
- colanderman 14y ago
  I'm talking about married couple, adultery here. Wasn't marriage a "legal contract"? Yep. The wife broke her marriage contract. The other guy was not party to the contract and thus did nothing illegal (except in places with backward definitions of adultery). Doesn't mean he wasn't a jerk for emotionally harming his mentor.
onetwothreefour 14y ago
Fire him. The end.
crymer11 14y ago
Maybe I'm naive, but everywhere I've been employed, it's been an "at-will" employment where either party has the right to terminate the employment contract without notice (discriminatory termination notwithstanding).
Eliezer 14y ago
I'm glad I don't live on that planet and that none of my girlfriends' boyfriends have a problem with me. The algorithm here isn't complicated. Ask yourself whether you're someone who can be happily monogamous. If the answer is "no", own up to it, date poly people and have awesome dinners with your new extended family. If the answer is "yes", you have the option of dating somebody who needs your fidelity and offers you theirs in return, and the two of you can live happily ever. And then there are all the other options - but regardless, try to figure it out and be honest with yourself before you get married.
- potatolicious 14y ago
  People cheat for many reasons besides "I secretly yearn to be poly", there's nothing here that suggests that OP's wife falls under that case.
  - jspthrowaway2 14y ago
    His view is less about the reason and more about the action itself.
OGinparadise 14y ago
Step One: Fire Him (at least make that decision in your head) Step Two: Work it out for maximum payback to him and less trouble for you. But a lot depends on how long you were married, maybe the wife still loves him and she may own part of the company.
brudgers 14y ago
Many personal and business relationships have survived far more serious problems than sex with an ex. Seriously, an employee's sex life is generally none of the employer's business - neither is the sex life of one's ex-spouse. Objectively, the employee did not violate the bosses trust and the relationship might be repaired. Though not exactly typical, a marriage and family counselor might help in working toward that end if the parties are willing.
- clarky07 14y ago
  Are you kidding? This wasn't sex with an ex. This was an affair while they were married that was the reason for ending the marriage. You can't see a difference?
angersock 14y ago
It's a shame seeing something like this come up, especially since there is basically no way we can really get a useful picture of events to give advice. Several statements lack qualifying detail that could be useful: Recently, I found out that one of my employees has been having an affair with my wife. Drunk hookup at New Year's Eve party, semi-monthly when the timing works out, or on your office desk every Friday when you're out playing golf? My wife has since left me For the employee? For another party entirely? For Scientology? I've spoken to him, and he says he's sorry about what's happened but he's also not leaving. He's sorry he got caught, or that he got caught up in the heat of the moment? Seriously, there's degrees here and a simple "The arrogant little bastard cuckolded me!" likely doesn't do the situation justice. Moreover, as the guy points out himself, the employee is technically competent and also the matter is private at the moment--presumably, he may be able to let sleeping dogs lie. This is stupid drama and we can't help because we're all supposing things wildly.
greggman 14y ago
It's not the employee's responsibility to stay away from your wife. It's your wife's responsibility to not sleep with other people and your responsibility not to give her any reason to. I've never understood the Hollywood story of wife cheats on husband, husband beats up her lover. As far as you know he wasn't even aware she was married. In this case clearly he was aware it was your wife. Would it change the story if she was your girlfriend instead of your wife? Your x-wife? Your x-girlfriend? I'd say effectively since she had the affair she already was your x-wife. Do the circumstances matter? If he she had left first then later started a relationship with this guy would that change how you feel? If he'd never met your wife while you were married and then met her without knowing she was your wife would that change things? I'm not suggesting you shouldn't feel upset or want to fire the guy or get him to leave. You feel how you feel. All I'm suggesting is other ways to frame the issue that might subtly change your P.O.V.
frogpelt 14y ago
If a person who worked for me slept with anyone else's wife I would start looking for reasons to fire them. Even more so if it was a coworker's wife. Furthermore, if it was my wife I would fire them immediately and ask questions later. This loser hasn't an ounce of integrity and integrity is a must in almost any setting. If you expect productivity and team solidarity to ever exist again the garbage must be taken out.
usablebytes 14y ago
Important question unanswered, before we could give any advice: When did your wife leave? Was it after you found out about the affair or before? Ideally, our life partner cheating on us should hurt us more than somebody we mentored. But may be since the wife couldn't be controlled, the anguish is on the employee who can be controlled somehow. The law, surely would support the employee as the personal matters can't be mixed with office. But yea, if you want to fire him, you can do with some other reasons, if not this.
jspthrowaway2 14y ago
Threads like this are a nice sampling of the kinds of people you find on Hacker News. I find myself saying "yep, I'd work for you," "not in a million years," and so on. It's fun. Try it. Hint: Immediate-fire responses are managers who shouldn't have reports. Take notes.
- blisterpeanuts 14y ago
  You'd rather work for some unassertive, passive-aggressive guy who lets employees betray his trust and just turns the other cheek?
  - jspthrowaway2 14y ago
    I said "immediate-fire", not "fire". Take time to consider all the facts before reacting; reacting quickly is usually a sign of a bad manager.
    - blisterpeanuts 14y ago
      OK, so you'd rather work for a guy who fires the adulterer the next day, not the same day that he finds out he's been poking his wife? Because he's taken 24 hours to "think it over"? I can understand if the employee was caught stealing petty cash or fudging the time sheets; then you'd want some semblance of due process to gain absolute proof, give him a chance to resign rather than be fired, etc. But adultery? Confessed adultery?
      - jspthrowaway2 14y ago
        It's not about the proof required to fire him. It's about understanding the situation entirely before reacting. Immediate reactions are usually problematic because emotions are involved, particularly in this case.
jlakai 14y ago
He can fire him, but not without the risk of being sued. I think his dilemma is salvaging the time/investment he made into the employee who basically is his right hand man. A person like that is difficult if not impossible to replace. He's a logical thinker, but his employee is pretty shady to want to stay around and not quit and seems to be quite arrogant. This can be an advantage. The wife won't get shit. She is the one who had the affair. The right choice and most difficult choice is to keep him around. It's likely he is still reliable in terms of the company and vital for his day to day operations. It is extremely for him to take a new stance with his employee though. Make sure you document in writing all the mistakes or problems you have here on out (Extremely Important). Start looking for a replacement, and have the employee start going through day to day operations. This will stop the employee from stepping all over his boss. Realizing he can be replaced is important especially since the guy seems to not have respect for his boss. This will put him in his place and he'll have the choice to step up and outperform or make mistakes that puts him in a situation where there is just cause to fire him. The best case scenario would be for his employee to quit on his own so that he doesn't have have to give severance pay, health insurance or unemployement. This is what usually happens. You could also cut his hours etc, other ways to get him to leave without having to fire him.
Zenst 14y ago
Facts: you dont like him now, this was outside work and in that would be unfair to fire as not work related and also legal issues. You are splitting from your wife. My solution would be make the divorce settlement to be mostly made up from the company. Offload what else you can onto the other chap with fiscal compensation. Then once that has setteled and be all friendly about it you then after a nice little holiday break set up a competeing company and do what you want to do with a clean slate with the knowledge of the buisness, list of employee's you wish to recruit from the old company and relationships with the customers. That is what I would do, only fair and works on many levels of karma as well as enabling you to completely in effect restructure the company in a way that enables you to do it with all that hindsite you have gained and is an emense advantage. Also get misconduct clauses in the contracts that can be leveridged in such matter. Though even if you did have that enabling you to dismiss him without fallback you still need to perhaps make people more dispensible in your company design. But your company is your life and so is your wife and with that too lose one and have the other stabbed up is certainly a unplesant situation and with that; Don't get mad, get even. But it is had not to get mad so channel it and tap into that new resovoir of energy - some of us have to drink lots of coffee to obtain that level of energy.
grot 14y ago
all's fair in love and war right?
conductr 14y ago
If you can't fire him, change his role with the company. He is now the bathroom attendant. He is expected to clean the toilet, provide a towels to dry hands, offer mints, etc. No tips allowed. He won't be around for long
lancewiggs 14y ago
This is for the guy himself, the one who had the affair. Hi. What an awful situation - uncomfortable doesn't really begin to describe it. However what's done is done, and if you are now with the wife of the boss, then clearly you and she are happier in that state. Even if not, clearly life is once again far more complicated than we ever envisage, and you have both chosen the difficult path. So what to do? Let's paint three options - fight, flee or transition. Under Fight, you would stand your ground, and insist that business is business, and personal matters are separate. With Flee, you'd exit immediately and allow you and your new partner to start a new life together away from her former husband. With Transition you'll take into account the knowledge that things will never be the same at work, and negotiate a graceful exit and transition, perhaps retaining a share of the business, and also ensuring that you formally settle any claim on the business the wife may have. The Fight approach may seem logical, in a Spock kind of way, but it is bereft of all feeling. You will be demonstrating to all around you that you are completely non-empathic, and some may start pondering your scores from The Psychopath Test (book). I suspect that it would result in an uncomfortable work and personal experiences which will almost certainly end badly for all parties, including the business and the ex-wife. The Flee approach is the most empathetic, signaling that relationships and family matter more than business, which is a view held by almost everybody else in the world. It's kindest to your Boss, and to your new lover, and allows you all to make genuine re-starts. However you'll lose some of the benefits from being in the company, and you will leave an immediate gap with your knowledge and skills. The Transition or negotiate and leave approach is probably wisest. The transition period could be days to months, but does need to be defined and progress monitored. You would each agree a list of tasks to complete, and on a way of behaving to each other. You may (should really) choose to have a third party or two involved with this negotiation, but don't hire expensive lawyers and do it in court, for obvious reasons. Come to a rapid agreement within a few days, and then honourably complete the terms. No doubt there are other approaches, and they should be considered as well. All of them should include a genuine apology - indeed a series of genuine apologies. Of course it wasn't entirely clear whether you are still with the ex-wife, but even if it was a fairly brief fling, serious consideration of the approach to take and the apologies is still very valid.
bramcohen 14y ago
In regards to the question of 'Is it legal to fire this person for this?' at least in California it's a slam dunk - the answer is yes. One of the questions on the harassment training I had to take was for a related scenario, where a boss cut off an affair with an employee and later on fired her because his wife found out and wanted him to, and the whole point of the question was that the firing was legal. If it's legal to fire under that circumstance, it's definitely legal to fire under this one.
viveksec 14y ago
I think the OP is balancing the economic costs of firing with the psychological advantages to be had by chucking him and clearing his mind. If the guy wasnt "close to indispensible", he'd likely be gone by now. One way out could be to bring some other employees up to speed and then fire the guy. Overall I agree with the top comment. Having the guy around for long would inflict a negative air at the top that might permeate the entire organization. Gotta go for sure.
blisterpeanuts 14y ago
Unbelievable. Fifty or sixty years ago, such an act of betrayal would have been answered with a summary firing, at least, and possibly a good beating as a parting gift. Today, in our namby pamby world, someone has to ask: should I fire him? Would that be insensitive of me? Will I be sued? How will my (ex)wife feel? The answer, since you asked, is to fire his ass for unethical behavior. If he tries to take you to court, hire a good lawyer and fight back. File a civil suit against him. Make him famous. Make him sorry he ever walked in the door. What goes around, comes around. Important employee, my ass. No one is worth that.
- colanderman 14y ago
  * a good beating as a parting gift * Fortunately that's illegal.
  - blisterpeanuts 14y ago
    So is murder. But 75 or 100 years ago, men were commonly murdered for sleeping with another man's wife. Sometimes the killer went to jail. Other times a smart lawyer could get him a lenient sentence. After all, the prevailing morality of the era (arguably still true today) was that you keep your hands off another person's spouse, at risk of life and limb if you don't.
patmcguire 14y ago
You can't really expect yourself to deal with someone "fairly" when this happens. A person can reason about it all he wants, he's never going to not hate the guy who slept with his wife. Get it over with at any cost, it'll drag down the company much worse than losing any employee.
exodust 14y ago
Nobody is questioning the legitimacy of the anonymous post? Have you seen the early edits of the question? * His wife's name is Jenny * been together for 15 years * high school sweethearts * 3 yr old son Way to stay anonymous. The user has been a member for 2 days, already attracted 403 reputation points (whatever that means). Anyway, people seem to enjoy discussing the topic, and enjoy assuming it's all real and their advice will make it back to the questioner. Hook, line, sinker. If it is real, the full story is needed including the other man's version before anyone can say what to do.
ekm2 14y ago
I truly admire your composure and ability to think of a sensible,legal way of dealing with this situation.Call me irrational but i would have properly & firmly physically 'fixed' this employee.
thedealmaker 14y ago
Fire the employee and either commit to counseling or separate from from your wife asap. If anyone presents any other options they are sugar coating the situation. Either way short term you are in for some pain personally and professionally. Deal with it and move on with or without your wife but the employee has to go.
ramtamtam 14y ago
Well here's a thought: Perhaps he himself should pack up and leave? After all he is the one with trust issues in the workplace.
gurvinder372 14y ago
Let's be honest here, personal and professional life will always impact each other. They can't be separated no matter how much you want to reason it out. I can't image how you two will be able to get into a meeting room and only discuss about business. And if you are unable to do that his technical competence will not add any value to you. His words may sound convincing, but your employee sounds arrogant and self-righteous if he says this shouldn't be a work matter. I would suggest that you first take a break from your employee, make up your mind to terminate him, and finally talk to a lawyer to understand your options from him.
gadders 14y ago
First fire him. Then kick his arse.

147 points by DigitalSea 14y ago

nvr219 14y ago

The guy in the OP values his company over all other personal relationships it seems.

JesseObrien 14y ago
If you read it you'd know his wife left him. After that, what relationships do you have left?
- nvr219 14y ago
  There is the relationship between the owner and the employee. From the question it sounds like the owner doesn't want to dissolve this relationship (at least in part) due to the negative impact on his company.
enjo 14y ago
If he's willing to sleep with the damn owners wife, what else is he willing to do? Cheat? Steal? At best he's a poison to the culture.
- baddox 14y ago
  Why would a romantic affair have any correlation to stealing?
  - dickbasedregex 14y ago
    If you are willing to have an affair with someone else's spouse, especially when that person has been a mentor and championed you by promoting you, you're probably pretty devoid of any loyalty or moral fiber. And then to refuse to leave? Yeah, you can assume that person is completely untrustworthy in any regard. Note, I'm not referring to a single mistake in a moment of weakness but an ongoing affair.
    - baddox 14y ago
      I get the tautology that if you can't be trusted then you can't be trusted, but I still don't see any reason to believe this would extend to something like theft.

Benferhat 14y ago

What's the point of owning the company if you can't fire the guy who cuckolded you? Come on! If you were into it, it'd be another story.

deleted 14y ago

[deleted]

mrslx 14y ago

Open an office in a warzone and assign him there. He doesn't accept, fire.

mrslx 14y ago
... imagine the reference check...

andyl 14y ago

Consult your attorney, train a replacement, fire the guy. The breach of trust can never be repaired. How can this decision take more than ten seconds?

tptacek 14y ago

Here is a more interesting question: You're the boss. Your immediate report is the competent VP/Engineer. His report, the company's best dev, is the one who committed the personal-life transgression against him. The two will never work together well again. Now what?

rscale 14y ago
In such a situation, I'd figure out what I'd do if (best developer) got hit by a bus, and proceed from there.
- jessaustin 14y ago
  As in, you'd hire a bus driver?
  - austingunter 14y ago
    As in, "I'd figure out how to keep the company successful and growing after one of my employees suddenly wasn't there any longer."
    - jessaustin 14y ago
      whoosh!
optimus 14y ago
How is that more interesting? You'd consider canning the _competent_ VP/Engineer, adding insult to injury? C'mon.
- salemh 14y ago
  I think he is showing a more obvious solution that removes his own emotional investment by reframing the situation.
- yen223 14y ago

rscale 14y ago

I find it very, very strange that his first stop wasn't an employment lawyer. He has an employee with a demonstrated willingness to lie about the most important of things, to cause massive distraction and disruption, and to do so with little regret. What else isn't he telling you? If he really doesn't believe he can fire this guy, he has a succession planning problem that needs to be solved.

georgemcbay 14y ago

To be completely blunt, if someone has to ask a question like this on stackexchange and he didn't fire the other guy immediately (or at least after consulting a lawyer to cross the Ts and dot the Is), I'm not entirely surprised that he isn't "doing it" for his wife. This isn't meant to excuse her cheating in any way as I believe cheating is a cowardly and inexcusable way to get out of a relationship that isn't working, but c'mon. For what it is worth, I'd advocate firing if the guy found out an employee was cheating on any other employee, so while it would be impossible to separate your feelings in his situation, I think it is the right action regardless of who got cheated on. Talk about workplace poison and unethical behavior!

zalew 14y ago

what happened to beat the crap out of him?

mtraven 14y ago

Promote the guy to sales, he's clearly a closer.

DannyBee 14y ago
Reddit is over that way.

hugh4life 14y ago

Challenge him to a duel.

scottmagdalein 14y ago

Option #1: Ask him (face to face) to talk with him privately, punch him as hard as you can right in the nose, then talk to an employment lawyer to make sure you're in the clear to dismiss him for a breach of professional trust. Option #2: Most of #1, but (instead of an employment lawyer) demote him to the mail room so he'll resign (no severance or unemployment). Also, never allow a single person, however trustworthy, to be so indispensable to your business that you can't thrive without them.

dickbasedregex 14y ago
> Also, never allow a single person, however trustworthy, to be so indispensable to your business that you can't thrive without them. So many times this!
gnu8 14y ago
#2 is more complicated than you think. It would be seen as a constructive dismissal, basically equivalent to a termination. Only a lawyer can properly advise if this is a good idea. I'm going to type the words a few more times for emphasis: lawyer lawyer lawyer lawyer lawyer lawyer lawyer lawyer up.
- greenyoda 14y ago
  If this is happening in the U.S., then the employee is probably an "at-will" employee, who can be fired for any reason whatsoever - as long as you're not discriminating against him based on his sex, religion, or membership in some other legally protected class. People who've slept with your wife are not a protected class under law.
  - gnu8 14y ago
    The point is giving an employee nothing useful to do so that they resign may be the same as terminating them, so they might still be entitled to severance or unemployment benefits.
lallysingh 14y ago

escaped_reddit 14y ago

Did your wife leave because you found out or did the employee sleep with ur wife after she left?

deleted 14y ago

[deleted]

swift 14y ago
You cannot be serious. You cannot go through life letting people walk all over you and abuse your trust. Your approach isn't "better than most alternatives"; it's encouraging him to accept the role of victim. Life is too short for THAT.

solusglobus 14y ago

From evolutionary point of view, the employee has dominated him by taking over his wife from him. Therefore he will naturally feel inferior. The employee's dominance is reflected in his subtle arrogance with no sign of remorse. He should man up and fire him or he is just a pushover, Mr. Nice Guy (http://www.amazon.com/No-More-Mr-Nice-Guy/dp/0762415339 http://www.amazon.com/No-More-Mr-Nice-Guy/dp/0762415339).

zalew 14y ago
not sure why someone downvoted you.
- drivebyacct2 14y ago
  Because we're more mature than this "puff out your chest, be a man and get the girl" crap. And of course your other comment here is "beat the crap out of him". Wow.
  - solusglobus 14y ago
    This is more than just "puff out your chest, be a man and get the girl". This whole event is rooted in evolutionary psychology. The power dynamics has unconsciously shifted towards the employee. This is like a power frame which is adopted in Pitch Anything (http://www.amazon.com/Pitch-Anything-Innovative-Presenting-Persuading/dp/0071752854 http://www.amazon.com/Pitch-Anything-Innovative-Presenting-P...). To overcome a power frame, you need to break it. If not, he will always submit to the employee's power frame unconsciously. This is not good for his productivity, his leadership, his being as a man and ultimately his company. One way to break the employee's power frame is to fire him.
    - hnriot 14y ago
      You're neglecting the wife in this armchair psychology. There's a much mor complex power dynamic going on entirely.

rbanffy 14y ago

Sleep with his daughter? Wait for him to marry your ex and sleep with her again? Hire an outplacement company and place him inside a competitor you particularly dislike? Seriously: why employ someone you can't trust?

chernevik 14y ago

If I work for you, and you don't fire him, I quit. That we're even discussing this has me looking at the door. I'm not sure you can do anything to redeem not having already fired the guy. If you won't stand up for yourself here, I don't know when you will. I certainly don't know when you would stand up for me. Get a lawyer and do it right. But fire him. ALSO: Maybe more important. Get yourself into therapy of some kind. Immediately. Get screened for depression and pyschological disorder. That you are even asking this question suggests that your priorities and self-image have departed from normal ranges in unhealthy ways. Never mind the goddam business. You aren't even living your life. Something is seriously haywire. If you don't go to work on it you are going to end up a very sad and strange story.

purplelobster 14y ago
Firing somebody in the UK is very difficult. No matter how aggravated he is, if the law is not on his side then there's nothing he can do.
- sergiosgc 14y ago
  Firing people in Portugal is also hell, but loopholes exist in every law; I'm sure it's not different in the UK. My favorite, which also appears applicable to this case is: promote him into a top managerial position, then fire him for breach of trust (top managerial positions require trust from shareholders, the board and the CEO) Speak to a lawyer, though. IANAL, obviously.
  - elithrar 14y ago
    > My favorite, which also appears applicable to this case is: promote him into a top managerial position, then fire him for breach of trust (top managerial positions require trust from shareholders, the board and the CEO) You can't retroactively apply "breach of trust" in this situation though, and promoting him with the intention of firing him (which would be obvious) won't help your case.
- ChuckMcM 14y ago

pm 14y ago

Fire him. However, how you handle it is of the utmost importance. The truth is, not only will you not be able to work with him, but once it gets out to the company, everyone else will begin asking, "Why hasn't he been fired?". If you avoid that decision, you will very quickly begin to lose the trust of your employees, as they'll think you're indecisive and that your employee is the one with hand. If you decide to continue working with him, the employee will continue to undermine you at work. And then he'll leave, start his own company doing the same product, and bring three quarters of your best devs with him, because they think you've lost your edge. So get it the fuck together, fire him, and make a public statement that his firing was due to a lack of personal integrity and make it clear that you won't tolerate that kind of personal betrayal. Details can be spared, because those kinds of rumours spread faster than diseases through a workplace. This is a pure power play. Don't let him win.

pm 14y ago
Also, consult with a lawyer before doing anything (that should go without saying), but do it quick and your goal should be getting him out of there as fast as possible.
coopdog 14y ago
Great advice, you're right that there's a chance that he could lose the entire company over this. There's a chance he can't fire him, in which case he should probably contain him in a room doing menial tasks and receiving written warnings whenever they aren't satisfactory (3 warnings = can be fired where I live). Either way dealing with it head on is the only way to keep everyone's respect. If he takes everyone's advice and deals with it, but also has the benefit of patience and wisdom to ask before acting (not sure I could), that's probably the most respect deserving course of all.
- pm 14y ago
  I would suggest patience insofar as he can collect his thoughts to focus enough on the sitatuion at hand without getting bitter, and execute a plan with cold ruthlessness. Whether he likes it or not, his employee is now an adversary, and his wife is only the beginning. It's like the old lion being ejected from the pride because his time has come. He's taken his wife, why not take his company? Just like a serial killer, he's only going to escalate.

dkokelley 14y ago

I think the only correct answer is to talk to a lawyer and determine the best way to legally terminate the employee. Also, another lawyer should be involved to settle matters between the company owner and unfaithful wife. Things could reach another level of complicated if the wife decides she wants a say in the matter. Does she own any portion of the company, or have a voice in how it is operated? The end action is obvious (to me). It's the legal minefield of steps necessary to get to that action that the owner needs to carefully consider (with the advice of sound legal council).

jetti 14y ago

The wife is the one at fault, not the employee. Chances are that if the employee said 'no', then the wife would've found somebody else to sleep with. The wife was the one who took a vow to remain faithful, not the employee.

Frozenlock 14y ago
I don't know why you got downvoted. When you have a relationship with a man/woman, it's with this individual, not with every single other human being on the planet. If I'm not with anyone and I try to seduce your girlfriend, it's HER job to say no. Unless you don't think she is smart enough to make her own decisions. But in this case we have other problems... As opposed to jetti, I'm not sure the wife would just have found somebody else. But regardless, she was the one in couple with the boss. I'm confused by most of the reactions I see here. It's as if they expect the boss to be able to tell employees who they can fuck. Kudos to this boss for at least considering that firing the guy is not the only solution.
- MordinSolus 14y ago
  > As opposed to jetti, I'm not sure the wife would just have found somebody else. Irrelevant. Here's the problem: "At the same time, every time I see his face, I feel like that just kills me inside." It is silly to think that this doesn't affect productivity and won't affect the business in the future, especially with communication between these two individuals. A person's well being does is in fact a work matter, the acknowledgment of which makes the employees position absolutely untenable. You cannot possibly sleep with a fellow employee's spouse (regardless of whether it is a superior or not) and not expect that to be a work matter. > It's as if they expect the boss to be able to tell employees who they can fuck. This isn't about telling the employee who they can fuck. It's about fostering a productive and positive work environment. Knowingly choosing to create animosity between yourself and a superior (or any fellow employee for that matter) in such a hurtful manner is simply stupid. This employee should be fired immediately.
  - Frozenlock 14y ago

fooooobar 14y ago

I would give him a pay raise for outing my wife as untrustworthy. You already know your employees only continue to show up because you pay them money and you only hire them because you profit from their work. Your spouse on the other hand, was in what was supposed to be a committed relationship where she would stick with you even if you were broke.

jpeg_hero 14y ago

Very surprised nobody has mentioned "at will" employment. .. or as my old employment law professor used to say: You can require all of your employees to wear purple shirts. And then the next day when one of them shows up wearing purple, you can fire him for wearing purple.

edouard1234567 14y ago

Was your wife working for the company? A lot of companies forbid husband and wife to work for the company at the same time.

dancole 14y ago

> I'm the owner of a business [...] If he divorces his wife, could she potentially get part ownership of the company?

pdonis 14y ago
IANAL, but I think it depends on the state (or country) and how the business is set up (are any shares of stock in her name or held jointly?).

MrMcDowall 14y ago

Law No. 2 of The 48 Laws of Power could have made you more wary about this situation: Never put too much trust in friends; learn how to use enemies. [0] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_48_Laws_of_Power http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_48_Laws_of_Power

mahmud 14y ago
Robert Greene and his Machiavellian bullshit. The sooner you ignore that conniving crap the happier you will live.

tyang 14y ago

Besides the obvious answer of firing him or making his life so miserable he'll quit, etc., here's an out of the box idea (I don't know if the preceding 38 comments touch on this - if they did, that validates my idea a bit): What about the idea of selling the company to him or firing yourself with a nice, generous severance or golden parachute? One possibility is that you don't yet respect yourself as much as you could. Another is he may be more important than you right now. A third is that you will start messing up at work if you keep him around, so you are future value add will at some point be less than his. Any of these three possibilities suggest that the company is better off with him staying and you leaving. That said, my first suggestion for you is to get a good therapist. Get some help from your real friends and family (parents? siblings?) And when you man up, fire his ass. Good luck. You seem like a good person intent on doing what is right for all but it may be time to do what's right for yourself.

rossjudson 14y ago

Give the asker a bit of a break. He just got run over by a truck, and some are taking him to task for not bouncing right back up and picking a fight. He got run over by a frickin' truck. Emotionally. He's looking for reassurance and contact with others. Once he heals, he'll be the kind of person who put a 40-man company together again, and he'll do what needs to be done.

tedunangst 14y ago

Looks like there is an exception to the rule that "my private life is none of my employer's business, no exceptions".

dredmorbius 14y ago
The exception is and always has been "until it materially affects performance".
- tedunangst 14y ago
  It sounds like its only affecting performance because the employer has chosen to make it affect performance. Look at all the comments from people saying if the boss doesn't fire the employee (perhaps because its not affecting performance) they'd quit because the boss has no backbone. Where's the job performance related justification for that?
  - dredmorbius 14y ago
    What part of people leaving a company on account of the breach of trust between a co-worker and the boss, and the related loss of institutional knowledge and incurred replacement recruiting costs, don't constitute a business impact. It's not necessary for the impact to be on the productivity of the employee whose behavior is in question. Say, an employee starts showing up at work in tactical combat gear with various hate slogans put up around their workplace and on their car, which make other employees understandably scared. Or sexual harassment creating a hostile work environment for others. In neither case would the offender necessarily be the one whose productivity is impacted. I'd support termination in either case, however.

checker659 14y ago

How about he sell the company and move on?

kevinalexbrown 14y ago

I'll lead the specific advice to SE, but one general observation: If he's actually that valuable, this is a great reason to spread responsibility, coach newer employees, and invest in other people besides your indispensable "rockstar/ninja/guru" before you might have to let them go for a non-performance-based liability, like suspicions of fraud, etc.

joeblau 14y ago
Yeah I totally agree. Separation of duties and rotation of duties is actually a pretty important security measure that should be employed at any company. When there is one person that does/knows it all-everything rises and falls on that employee; even your morality.

jessaustin 14y ago

This is a good story to know, just to motivate decision-makers to get the business on a no-indispensibles footing. It's more... vivid than the hit-by-a-bus scenario. If I might put on my amateur-analyst's hat, if your employee fucked your wife, there is a very good chance that he's been fucking you for much longer. A fresh-from-college hire might very well test his boss to see what he can get away with in the first few months on the job, especially if the employee plays the central business role described here. In many situations that youthful experimentation can be indulged, within reason. In this situation indulgence became pathological, and the employee was trapped in a cycle of escalating transgression. You have sown the wind with this employee. The second professional you should retain, after a lawyer (and indeed this will be a good lawyer's advice) is a private investigator. This guy has been robbing you. If this employee has access to business computers, that investigator should be skilled in forensic computer security. If the employee has access to the books, you'll need a forensic accountant. You might not be able to fire this guy for the ultimate transgression, but you'll definitely be able to fire him (and possibly refer him to prosecutors) for all the steps that led up to it. If your spirit is so broken by now that you can't contemplate the above then maybe you should just sell the business. It would be nice if you could keep the proceeds away from the ex, but that seems unlikely.

richardjordan 14y ago

This is stupid. You fire the guy and I'd take the pepsi challenge on any really unlikely legal issues that arise (which they wouldn't). If this is even a question for you I genuinely believe you're not cut out to be a CEO and you should take plan B - promote the guy to CEO and slink off into the background yourself.

deleted 14y ago

[deleted]

dchichkov 14y ago

I think one should be more careful posting such stuff 'anonymously'. It looks like there is enough bits of information here, to identify the original poster. Owner of the company with 30-40 employees; technology company; oldest employee in the company was recruited straight from the university; divorced; likely UK; likely has another account on stack-exchange; writing style.

MartinCron 14y ago
This may be the only valuable bit of advice posted here.
rehack 14y ago
How do you know that, the 'anonymous' poster has not posted this to shame the bastard and the ex-wife?... Doubt a small (30-40 employee) tech company's employees don't spend any time on stackexchange or on HN. And the poster has left just enough clues for his target audience (other employees and his and his ex-wife personal friends) to figure out things. At the same time he is within limits such that he is legally safe (against any defamation suits). One can't be sure, but if this posting, indeed was a shaming strategy. I would say good solid punch. Bang on the face.

lousy_sysadmin 14y ago

Adultery isn't punishable legally in some places...really? This is the first time I heard this. I'm talking about married couple, adultery here. Wasn't marriage a "legal contract"? In this case does it mean that if the couple were to be divorced, the guy still need to pay alimony et cetera?

tomku 14y ago
There are two separate issues here, adultery as a crime and adultery as a breach of contract. I'll talk about US laws, since they're the ones I'm most familiar with. Adultery as a crime is still surprisingly common, but going away fast. Prosecutions for it in Western countries are extremely rare, and the laws making it illegal in 23 US states are just waiting to be challenged and overthrown. Most people seem to think that it's not the government's business to decide that all husbands and wives must remain faithful or be fined/jailed. Adultery as a breach of contract is a little trickier, because a marriage contract is a special kind of contract that covers things that normal contracts can't. You can't sue someone for breaching their marriage vows, but you can divorce them. In the past, you needed grounds (such as adultery) to do so, but no-fault divorces are available now in every US state and several other Western countries. Whether adultery is factored into decisions about alimony depends on the jurisdiction - some do, some don't. It's a tricky issue, and relationships (particularly rocky ones) tend to be more complex than rigid rules can allow for. On a more general point, I think that you'd have a hard time convincing a judge that lifetime sexual exclusivity is something you can sign away in any normal legal contract. Marriage gets special treatment to allow for things like that, but the trade-off is that we expect married couples to try to deal with their own issues rather than getting the courts involved immediately.
colanderman 14y ago
I'm talking about married couple, adultery here. Wasn't marriage a "legal contract"? Yep. The wife broke her marriage contract. The other guy was not party to the contract and thus did nothing illegal (except in places with backward definitions of adultery). Doesn't mean he wasn't a jerk for emotionally harming his mentor.

onetwothreefour 14y ago

Fire him. The end.

crymer11 14y ago

Maybe I'm naive, but everywhere I've been employed, it's been an "at-will" employment where either party has the right to terminate the employment contract without notice (discriminatory termination notwithstanding).

Eliezer 14y ago

I'm glad I don't live on that planet and that none of my girlfriends' boyfriends have a problem with me. The algorithm here isn't complicated. Ask yourself whether you're someone who can be happily monogamous. If the answer is "no", own up to it, date poly people and have awesome dinners with your new extended family. If the answer is "yes", you have the option of dating somebody who needs your fidelity and offers you theirs in return, and the two of you can live happily ever. And then there are all the other options - but regardless, try to figure it out and be honest with yourself before you get married.

potatolicious 14y ago
People cheat for many reasons besides "I secretly yearn to be poly", there's nothing here that suggests that OP's wife falls under that case.
- jspthrowaway2 14y ago
  His view is less about the reason and more about the action itself.

OGinparadise 14y ago

Step One: Fire Him (at least make that decision in your head) Step Two: Work it out for maximum payback to him and less trouble for you. But a lot depends on how long you were married, maybe the wife still loves him and she may own part of the company.

brudgers 14y ago

Many personal and business relationships have survived far more serious problems than sex with an ex. Seriously, an employee's sex life is generally none of the employer's business - neither is the sex life of one's ex-spouse. Objectively, the employee did not violate the bosses trust and the relationship might be repaired. Though not exactly typical, a marriage and family counselor might help in working toward that end if the parties are willing.

clarky07 14y ago
Are you kidding? This wasn't sex with an ex. This was an affair while they were married that was the reason for ending the marriage. You can't see a difference?

angersock 14y ago

It's a shame seeing something like this come up, especially since there is basically no way we can really get a useful picture of events to give advice. Several statements lack qualifying detail that could be useful: Recently, I found out that one of my employees has been having an affair with my wife. Drunk hookup at New Year's Eve party, semi-monthly when the timing works out, or on your office desk every Friday when you're out playing golf? My wife has since left me For the employee? For another party entirely? For Scientology? I've spoken to him, and he says he's sorry about what's happened but he's also not leaving. He's sorry he got caught, or that he got caught up in the heat of the moment? Seriously, there's degrees here and a simple "The arrogant little bastard cuckolded me!" likely doesn't do the situation justice. Moreover, as the guy points out himself, the employee is technically competent and also the matter is private at the moment--presumably, he may be able to let sleeping dogs lie. This is stupid drama and we can't help because we're all supposing things wildly.

greggman 14y ago

It's not the employee's responsibility to stay away from your wife. It's your wife's responsibility to not sleep with other people and your responsibility not to give her any reason to. I've never understood the Hollywood story of wife cheats on husband, husband beats up her lover. As far as you know he wasn't even aware she was married. In this case clearly he was aware it was your wife. Would it change the story if she was your girlfriend instead of your wife? Your x-wife? Your x-girlfriend? I'd say effectively since she had the affair she already was your x-wife. Do the circumstances matter? If he she had left first then later started a relationship with this guy would that change how you feel? If he'd never met your wife while you were married and then met her without knowing she was your wife would that change things? I'm not suggesting you shouldn't feel upset or want to fire the guy or get him to leave. You feel how you feel. All I'm suggesting is other ways to frame the issue that might subtly change your P.O.V.

frogpelt 14y ago

If a person who worked for me slept with anyone else's wife I would start looking for reasons to fire them. Even more so if it was a coworker's wife. Furthermore, if it was my wife I would fire them immediately and ask questions later. This loser hasn't an ounce of integrity and integrity is a must in almost any setting. If you expect productivity and team solidarity to ever exist again the garbage must be taken out.

usablebytes 14y ago

Important question unanswered, before we could give any advice: When did your wife leave? Was it after you found out about the affair or before? Ideally, our life partner cheating on us should hurt us more than somebody we mentored. But may be since the wife couldn't be controlled, the anguish is on the employee who can be controlled somehow. The law, surely would support the employee as the personal matters can't be mixed with office. But yea, if you want to fire him, you can do with some other reasons, if not this.

jspthrowaway2 14y ago

Threads like this are a nice sampling of the kinds of people you find on Hacker News. I find myself saying "yep, I'd work for you," "not in a million years," and so on. It's fun. Try it. Hint: Immediate-fire responses are managers who shouldn't have reports. Take notes.

blisterpeanuts 14y ago
You'd rather work for some unassertive, passive-aggressive guy who lets employees betray his trust and just turns the other cheek?
- jspthrowaway2 14y ago
  I said "immediate-fire", not "fire". Take time to consider all the facts before reacting; reacting quickly is usually a sign of a bad manager.
  - blisterpeanuts 14y ago
    OK, so you'd rather work for a guy who fires the adulterer the next day, not the same day that he finds out he's been poking his wife? Because he's taken 24 hours to "think it over"? I can understand if the employee was caught stealing petty cash or fudging the time sheets; then you'd want some semblance of due process to gain absolute proof, give him a chance to resign rather than be fired, etc. But adultery? Confessed adultery?
    - jspthrowaway2 14y ago
      It's not about the proof required to fire him. It's about understanding the situation entirely before reacting. Immediate reactions are usually problematic because emotions are involved, particularly in this case.

jlakai 14y ago

He can fire him, but not without the risk of being sued. I think his dilemma is salvaging the time/investment he made into the employee who basically is his right hand man. A person like that is difficult if not impossible to replace. He's a logical thinker, but his employee is pretty shady to want to stay around and not quit and seems to be quite arrogant. This can be an advantage. The wife won't get shit. She is the one who had the affair. The right choice and most difficult choice is to keep him around. It's likely he is still reliable in terms of the company and vital for his day to day operations. It is extremely for him to take a new stance with his employee though. Make sure you document in writing all the mistakes or problems you have here on out (Extremely Important). Start looking for a replacement, and have the employee start going through day to day operations. This will stop the employee from stepping all over his boss. Realizing he can be replaced is important especially since the guy seems to not have respect for his boss. This will put him in his place and he'll have the choice to step up and outperform or make mistakes that puts him in a situation where there is just cause to fire him. The best case scenario would be for his employee to quit on his own so that he doesn't have have to give severance pay, health insurance or unemployement. This is what usually happens. You could also cut his hours etc, other ways to get him to leave without having to fire him.

Zenst 14y ago

Facts: you dont like him now, this was outside work and in that would be unfair to fire as not work related and also legal issues. You are splitting from your wife. My solution would be make the divorce settlement to be mostly made up from the company. Offload what else you can onto the other chap with fiscal compensation. Then once that has setteled and be all friendly about it you then after a nice little holiday break set up a competeing company and do what you want to do with a clean slate with the knowledge of the buisness, list of employee's you wish to recruit from the old company and relationships with the customers. That is what I would do, only fair and works on many levels of karma as well as enabling you to completely in effect restructure the company in a way that enables you to do it with all that hindsite you have gained and is an emense advantage. Also get misconduct clauses in the contracts that can be leveridged in such matter. Though even if you did have that enabling you to dismiss him without fallback you still need to perhaps make people more dispensible in your company design. But your company is your life and so is your wife and with that too lose one and have the other stabbed up is certainly a unplesant situation and with that; Don't get mad, get even. But it is had not to get mad so channel it and tap into that new resovoir of energy - some of us have to drink lots of coffee to obtain that level of energy.

grot 14y ago

all's fair in love and war right?

conductr 14y ago

If you can't fire him, change his role with the company. He is now the bathroom attendant. He is expected to clean the toilet, provide a towels to dry hands, offer mints, etc. No tips allowed. He won't be around for long

lancewiggs 14y ago

This is for the guy himself, the one who had the affair. Hi. What an awful situation - uncomfortable doesn't really begin to describe it. However what's done is done, and if you are now with the wife of the boss, then clearly you and she are happier in that state. Even if not, clearly life is once again far more complicated than we ever envisage, and you have both chosen the difficult path. So what to do? Let's paint three options - fight, flee or transition. Under Fight, you would stand your ground, and insist that business is business, and personal matters are separate. With Flee, you'd exit immediately and allow you and your new partner to start a new life together away from her former husband. With Transition you'll take into account the knowledge that things will never be the same at work, and negotiate a graceful exit and transition, perhaps retaining a share of the business, and also ensuring that you formally settle any claim on the business the wife may have. The Fight approach may seem logical, in a Spock kind of way, but it is bereft of all feeling. You will be demonstrating to all around you that you are completely non-empathic, and some may start pondering your scores from The Psychopath Test (book). I suspect that it would result in an uncomfortable work and personal experiences which will almost certainly end badly for all parties, including the business and the ex-wife. The Flee approach is the most empathetic, signaling that relationships and family matter more than business, which is a view held by almost everybody else in the world. It's kindest to your Boss, and to your new lover, and allows you all to make genuine re-starts. However you'll lose some of the benefits from being in the company, and you will leave an immediate gap with your knowledge and skills. The Transition or negotiate and leave approach is probably wisest. The transition period could be days to months, but does need to be defined and progress monitored. You would each agree a list of tasks to complete, and on a way of behaving to each other. You may (should really) choose to have a third party or two involved with this negotiation, but don't hire expensive lawyers and do it in court, for obvious reasons. Come to a rapid agreement within a few days, and then honourably complete the terms. No doubt there are other approaches, and they should be considered as well. All of them should include a genuine apology - indeed a series of genuine apologies. Of course it wasn't entirely clear whether you are still with the ex-wife, but even if it was a fairly brief fling, serious consideration of the approach to take and the apologies is still very valid.

bramcohen 14y ago

In regards to the question of 'Is it legal to fire this person for this?' at least in California it's a slam dunk - the answer is yes. One of the questions on the harassment training I had to take was for a related scenario, where a boss cut off an affair with an employee and later on fired her because his wife found out and wanted him to, and the whole point of the question was that the firing was legal. If it's legal to fire under that circumstance, it's definitely legal to fire under this one.

viveksec 14y ago

I think the OP is balancing the economic costs of firing with the psychological advantages to be had by chucking him and clearing his mind. If the guy wasnt "close to indispensible", he'd likely be gone by now. One way out could be to bring some other employees up to speed and then fire the guy. Overall I agree with the top comment. Having the guy around for long would inflict a negative air at the top that might permeate the entire organization. Gotta go for sure.

blisterpeanuts 14y ago

Unbelievable. Fifty or sixty years ago, such an act of betrayal would have been answered with a summary firing, at least, and possibly a good beating as a parting gift. Today, in our namby pamby world, someone has to ask: should I fire him? Would that be insensitive of me? Will I be sued? How will my (ex)wife feel? The answer, since you asked, is to fire his ass for unethical behavior. If he tries to take you to court, hire a good lawyer and fight back. File a civil suit against him. Make him famous. Make him sorry he ever walked in the door. What goes around, comes around. Important employee, my ass. No one is worth that.

colanderman 14y ago
* a good beating as a parting gift * Fortunately that's illegal.
- blisterpeanuts 14y ago
  So is murder. But 75 or 100 years ago, men were commonly murdered for sleeping with another man's wife. Sometimes the killer went to jail. Other times a smart lawyer could get him a lenient sentence. After all, the prevailing morality of the era (arguably still true today) was that you keep your hands off another person's spouse, at risk of life and limb if you don't.

patmcguire 14y ago

You can't really expect yourself to deal with someone "fairly" when this happens. A person can reason about it all he wants, he's never going to not hate the guy who slept with his wife. Get it over with at any cost, it'll drag down the company much worse than losing any employee.

exodust 14y ago

Nobody is questioning the legitimacy of the anonymous post? Have you seen the early edits of the question? * His wife's name is Jenny * been together for 15 years * high school sweethearts * 3 yr old son Way to stay anonymous. The user has been a member for 2 days, already attracted 403 reputation points (whatever that means). Anyway, people seem to enjoy discussing the topic, and enjoy assuming it's all real and their advice will make it back to the questioner. Hook, line, sinker. If it is real, the full story is needed including the other man's version before anyone can say what to do.

ekm2 14y ago

I truly admire your composure and ability to think of a sensible,legal way of dealing with this situation.Call me irrational but i would have properly & firmly physically 'fixed' this employee.

thedealmaker 14y ago

Fire the employee and either commit to counseling or separate from from your wife asap. If anyone presents any other options they are sugar coating the situation. Either way short term you are in for some pain personally and professionally. Deal with it and move on with or without your wife but the employee has to go.

ramtamtam 14y ago

Well here's a thought: Perhaps he himself should pack up and leave? After all he is the one with trust issues in the workplace.

gurvinder372 14y ago

Let's be honest here, personal and professional life will always impact each other. They can't be separated no matter how much you want to reason it out. I can't image how you two will be able to get into a meeting room and only discuss about business. And if you are unable to do that his technical competence will not add any value to you. His words may sound convincing, but your employee sounds arrogant and self-righteous if he says this shouldn't be a work matter. I would suggest that you first take a break from your employee, make up your mind to terminate him, and finally talk to a lawyer to understand your options from him.

gadders 14y ago

First fire him. Then kick his arse.