6 ms·

PayPal Assault On File-Sharing Sites Makes Business Case For Bitcoin

62 points by pelle 14y ago

lmm 14y ago
There was talk of some EU "payment neutrality" regulations in the wake of visa/mastercard cutting off wikileaks; did that ever get anywhere?
- rprasad 14y ago
  No. It turns out the EU delegates were more worried about their own governments getting Wikileaked than they were about "payment neutrality," so the proposals were put on the backburner. People don't seem to understand that it's very easy to kill bitcoin, the same way they killed online gambling in the U.S.: make it illegal to transfer money to bitcoin exchanges or to financial institutions known to violate these regulations. This would kill all the legitimate exchanges and essentially prevent legitimate users from using bitcoin. This solution also has the advantage of being jurisdiction agnostic; the rules would apply only to US banks (or if such laws are issued by the EU, to EU banks) or to other financial institutions operating in the U.S. or with U.S. customers. It's also (relatively) trivial to implement such a blacklist--financial institutions can act on a dime if jail time is at stake.
  - Dylan16807 14y ago
    Is it really so easy to outlaw an arbitrary product? Gambling has a history of regulation as a vice. But bitcoin? What about suddenly outlawing trading cards? It doesn't seem that simple.
    - pavel_lishin 14y ago
      > Is it really so easy to outlaw an arbitrary product? Like hemp and alcohol?
      - Dylan16807 14y ago
        Hemp itself isn't outlawed, and the drug law again goes into 'vice'. And alcohol isn't an example of a law at all. Don't even joke about a bitcoin constitutional amendment.
    - mrgoldenbrown 14y ago
      Unfortunately, Bitcoins are not arbitrary products, they are currency (or at the very least a currency analogue), and governments have plenty of history regulating currency. There are also potential regulations/taxes/inspections of every single arbitrary good entering the country.
    - dbpatterson 14y ago
      Money laundering is illegal, and it isn't too much of a stretch to imagine the US political system deciding that bitcoin amounts to laundering money.
  - darkarmani 14y ago
    > People don't seem to understand that it's very easy to kill bitcoin, the same way they killed online gambling in the U.S.: make it illegal to transfer money to bitcoin exchanges or to financial institutions known to violate these regulations. What happens when people don't need to "buy" money with their bitcoins and just use it for goods?
    - nwh 14y ago
      Ideally that would be the case. If I could freelance and be paid in bitcoin, and could alternatively pay for services in bitcoin I'd be smiling. In reality, it'll probably be outlawed in the US as a money laundering system.
      - stefanix 14y ago
        also you can't pay your taxes in bitcoin
  - mrb 14y ago
    "People don't seem to understand that it's very easy to kill bitcoin, the same way they killed online gambling in the U.S." No, online gambling was hardly "killed" in the US: the illegal annual market is estimated to be $4-6 billion [1]! Similarly, Bitcoin would not be "killed" by declaring it illegal, it would most likely continue to prosper like online gambling. "This would kill all the legitimate exchanges and essentially prevent legitimate users from using bitcoin" I don't think so. There are many other ways to acquire bitcoins: you can sell goods/services in exchange of coins, you can mine, you can buy them from a friend in cash, etc. [1] http://www.businessweek.com/articles/2013-01-03/bitcoin-making-online-gambling-legal-in-the-u-dot-s-dot http://www.businessweek.com/articles/2013-01-03/bitcoin-maki...
  - stefanix 14y ago
    The bitcoin argument is harder to negate: There is nothing fundamentally wrong with a free currency.
nym 14y ago
Here's a free guide on how to buy bitcoins in America: http://howdoyoubuybitcoins.com/in/united-states/ http://howdoyoubuybitcoins.com/in/united-states/ Hope it's helpful. Please let me know if it can be improved.
- HockeyPlayer 14y ago
  CoinBase doesn't mention it on their site, but in addition to the 1%, you are also paying the bid/offer spread. So if a bitcoin is worth 13.5 US dollars, you will pay 13.6 at CoinBase and only get 13.4 when you change back into dollars. BitMe.com lets you deposit cash at any Chase branch for free, and you can take money out via ACH for 25 cents. All of the ways you suggest are fine for small amounts, but if you are trying to move thousands of dollars into BTC, percentage-based fees matter.
- diminoten 14y ago
  I was under the impression that the largest barrier to bitcoins is the inability to get them cheaply. Your link shows it's possible and has gotten better, but is still not as quick as a service like PayPal. I think it'll get there however, with larger adoption.
driverdan 14y ago
If you used PayPal to accept donations for a controversial / illegal service such as a private torrent tracker you're foolish. It was only a matter of time before PayPal shut down these accounts. For that matter, anyone who trusts PayPal is foolish. Keeping money in a PP account is a great way to lose it.
lectrick 14y ago
Here's a list of online stores that accept Bitcoin: http://www.bitcoinstore.com/ http://www.bitcoinstore.com/ http://bitcoincoffee.com/ http://bitcoincoffee.com/ http://www.bitcoinin.com/ http://www.bitcoinin.com/ http://www.bitcoinblaster.com/ http://www.bitcoinblaster.com/ http://www.bitmit.net/en/recent http://www.bitmit.net/en/recent (like eBay for BTC) There's a bunch more out there (and growing), that's just a starter list. There's also a whole bunch of gambling sites (surprise) which will take BTC now. I think Bitcoin will take over all online gambling sites, then all Usenet sites, it will become the go-to currency for all virtual good buying/selling, and now all private torrent trackers, all they need is someone like Wikipedia or Reddit to start accepting BTC and it's game over, I think.
- mrb 14y ago
  The ultimate list of (online and physical) stores accepting bitcoins is https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Trade https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Trade
- ihsw 14y ago
  Are there any ISPs or hosting companies that accept BTC?
  - runeks 14y ago
    There's plenty of hosting companies accepting BTC: https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Trade#Web_Hosting https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Trade#Web_Hosting I haven't heard about any ISP accepting it.
adventured 14y ago
I don't think it's hard to imagine a near future in which the US Government outlaws the use of bitcoin within its borders. In fact I'd almost guarantee that outcome. Bitcoin is far too threatening to the establishment (from the likes of Visa and Paypal to the Treasury and Fed due to the monetary aspects). If they owned it or could control it, that might be a different story. Indeed, I'll pin a time table on it. At the current growth rate, within 24 months the first calls to outlaw bitcoin will echo from some Senator or House member's office in DC. It'll lead to blanket legislation targeting bitcoin and any similar services that could exist in the future.
- pixie_ 14y ago
  Not if politicians are receiving donations in bitcoins ;) Mark Warden already does. http://www.markwarden.com/page/bitcoin-donation http://www.markwarden.com/page/bitcoin-donation also your 'matter of fact' attitude annoys me.
  - rthomas6 14y ago
    Do you disagree with the actual argument, or just how they said it?
    - pixie_ 14y ago
      You aren't annoyed when someone acts 'matter of fact' especially about things that haven't even happened yet? It's the ultimate in arrogance.
      - rthomas6 14y ago
        If you only disagree with the posturing and not the actual argument, how would you phrase what they said?
- ihsw 14y ago
  It's a currency that can topple governments.
- 14y ago
b1n 14y ago
As all transactions are public, what would stop a government creating a blacklist of bitcoin transactions? Permanently banning legitimate businesses and bitcoin exchanges/banks from accepting coins from 'tainted' wallets that have received these transactions (as well as parent and grandparent wallets). I accept that there are use cases when this isn't a problem, but being able to transfer wealth from one currency to another is a feature that a lot of successful currencies have.
- lubos 14y ago
  I don't see how government could enforce this. not to mention you never know as an outsider which wallet belongs to who.
  - b1n 14y ago
    Creating a sub network of approved bitcoins who's ownership/lineage could be verified. Perhaps by forcing companies to register their wallet addresses and the details of anyone buying through their bank using a credit card (this is assuming that the company doesn't want to break the law). A 3rd party (government) signed hash could be required for all transaction to prove legality. Deep packet inspection could be used to locate people who send bitcoin transactions (by default transactions are far from anonymous). Offline seizure could be used to prove large wallets illegality (e.g. if they tracked down silk road owners). There are plenty of algorithms that can infer people you might know based on your FB friends friends, I'm sure they can be easily applied to transactions.

62 points by pelle 14y ago

lmm 14y ago

There was talk of some EU "payment neutrality" regulations in the wake of visa/mastercard cutting off wikileaks; did that ever get anywhere?

rprasad 14y ago
No. It turns out the EU delegates were more worried about their own governments getting Wikileaked than they were about "payment neutrality," so the proposals were put on the backburner. People don't seem to understand that it's very easy to kill bitcoin, the same way they killed online gambling in the U.S.: make it illegal to transfer money to bitcoin exchanges or to financial institutions known to violate these regulations. This would kill all the legitimate exchanges and essentially prevent legitimate users from using bitcoin. This solution also has the advantage of being jurisdiction agnostic; the rules would apply only to US banks (or if such laws are issued by the EU, to EU banks) or to other financial institutions operating in the U.S. or with U.S. customers. It's also (relatively) trivial to implement such a blacklist--financial institutions can act on a dime if jail time is at stake.
- Dylan16807 14y ago
  Is it really so easy to outlaw an arbitrary product? Gambling has a history of regulation as a vice. But bitcoin? What about suddenly outlawing trading cards? It doesn't seem that simple.
  - pavel_lishin 14y ago
    > Is it really so easy to outlaw an arbitrary product? Like hemp and alcohol?
    - Dylan16807 14y ago
      Hemp itself isn't outlawed, and the drug law again goes into 'vice'. And alcohol isn't an example of a law at all. Don't even joke about a bitcoin constitutional amendment.
  - mrgoldenbrown 14y ago
    Unfortunately, Bitcoins are not arbitrary products, they are currency (or at the very least a currency analogue), and governments have plenty of history regulating currency. There are also potential regulations/taxes/inspections of every single arbitrary good entering the country.
  - dbpatterson 14y ago
    Money laundering is illegal, and it isn't too much of a stretch to imagine the US political system deciding that bitcoin amounts to laundering money.
- darkarmani 14y ago
  > People don't seem to understand that it's very easy to kill bitcoin, the same way they killed online gambling in the U.S.: make it illegal to transfer money to bitcoin exchanges or to financial institutions known to violate these regulations. What happens when people don't need to "buy" money with their bitcoins and just use it for goods?
  - nwh 14y ago
    Ideally that would be the case. If I could freelance and be paid in bitcoin, and could alternatively pay for services in bitcoin I'd be smiling. In reality, it'll probably be outlawed in the US as a money laundering system.
    - stefanix 14y ago
      also you can't pay your taxes in bitcoin
- mrb 14y ago
  "People don't seem to understand that it's very easy to kill bitcoin, the same way they killed online gambling in the U.S." No, online gambling was hardly "killed" in the US: the illegal annual market is estimated to be $4-6 billion [1]! Similarly, Bitcoin would not be "killed" by declaring it illegal, it would most likely continue to prosper like online gambling. "This would kill all the legitimate exchanges and essentially prevent legitimate users from using bitcoin" I don't think so. There are many other ways to acquire bitcoins: you can sell goods/services in exchange of coins, you can mine, you can buy them from a friend in cash, etc. [1] http://www.businessweek.com/articles/2013-01-03/bitcoin-making-online-gambling-legal-in-the-u-dot-s-dot http://www.businessweek.com/articles/2013-01-03/bitcoin-maki...
- stefanix 14y ago
  The bitcoin argument is harder to negate: There is nothing fundamentally wrong with a free currency.

nym 14y ago

Here's a free guide on how to buy bitcoins in America: http://howdoyoubuybitcoins.com/in/united-states/ http://howdoyoubuybitcoins.com/in/united-states/ Hope it's helpful. Please let me know if it can be improved.

HockeyPlayer 14y ago
CoinBase doesn't mention it on their site, but in addition to the 1%, you are also paying the bid/offer spread. So if a bitcoin is worth 13.5 US dollars, you will pay 13.6 at CoinBase and only get 13.4 when you change back into dollars. BitMe.com lets you deposit cash at any Chase branch for free, and you can take money out via ACH for 25 cents. All of the ways you suggest are fine for small amounts, but if you are trying to move thousands of dollars into BTC, percentage-based fees matter.
diminoten 14y ago
I was under the impression that the largest barrier to bitcoins is the inability to get them cheaply. Your link shows it's possible and has gotten better, but is still not as quick as a service like PayPal. I think it'll get there however, with larger adoption.

driverdan 14y ago

If you used PayPal to accept donations for a controversial / illegal service such as a private torrent tracker you're foolish. It was only a matter of time before PayPal shut down these accounts. For that matter, anyone who trusts PayPal is foolish. Keeping money in a PP account is a great way to lose it.

lectrick 14y ago

Here's a list of online stores that accept Bitcoin: http://www.bitcoinstore.com/ http://www.bitcoinstore.com/ http://bitcoincoffee.com/ http://bitcoincoffee.com/ http://www.bitcoinin.com/ http://www.bitcoinin.com/ http://www.bitcoinblaster.com/ http://www.bitcoinblaster.com/ http://www.bitmit.net/en/recent http://www.bitmit.net/en/recent (like eBay for BTC) There's a bunch more out there (and growing), that's just a starter list. There's also a whole bunch of gambling sites (surprise) which will take BTC now. I think Bitcoin will take over all online gambling sites, then all Usenet sites, it will become the go-to currency for all virtual good buying/selling, and now all private torrent trackers, all they need is someone like Wikipedia or Reddit to start accepting BTC and it's game over, I think.

mrb 14y ago
The ultimate list of (online and physical) stores accepting bitcoins is https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Trade https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Trade
ihsw 14y ago
Are there any ISPs or hosting companies that accept BTC?
- runeks 14y ago
  There's plenty of hosting companies accepting BTC: https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Trade#Web_Hosting https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Trade#Web_Hosting I haven't heard about any ISP accepting it.

adventured 14y ago

I don't think it's hard to imagine a near future in which the US Government outlaws the use of bitcoin within its borders. In fact I'd almost guarantee that outcome. Bitcoin is far too threatening to the establishment (from the likes of Visa and Paypal to the Treasury and Fed due to the monetary aspects). If they owned it or could control it, that might be a different story. Indeed, I'll pin a time table on it. At the current growth rate, within 24 months the first calls to outlaw bitcoin will echo from some Senator or House member's office in DC. It'll lead to blanket legislation targeting bitcoin and any similar services that could exist in the future.

pixie_ 14y ago
Not if politicians are receiving donations in bitcoins ;) Mark Warden already does. http://www.markwarden.com/page/bitcoin-donation http://www.markwarden.com/page/bitcoin-donation also your 'matter of fact' attitude annoys me.
- rthomas6 14y ago
  Do you disagree with the actual argument, or just how they said it?
  - pixie_ 14y ago
    You aren't annoyed when someone acts 'matter of fact' especially about things that haven't even happened yet? It's the ultimate in arrogance.
    - rthomas6 14y ago
      If you only disagree with the posturing and not the actual argument, how would you phrase what they said?
ihsw 14y ago
It's a currency that can topple governments.
14y ago

b1n 14y ago

As all transactions are public, what would stop a government creating a blacklist of bitcoin transactions? Permanently banning legitimate businesses and bitcoin exchanges/banks from accepting coins from 'tainted' wallets that have received these transactions (as well as parent and grandparent wallets). I accept that there are use cases when this isn't a problem, but being able to transfer wealth from one currency to another is a feature that a lot of successful currencies have.

lubos 14y ago
I don't see how government could enforce this. not to mention you never know as an outsider which wallet belongs to who.
- b1n 14y ago
  Creating a sub network of approved bitcoins who's ownership/lineage could be verified. Perhaps by forcing companies to register their wallet addresses and the details of anyone buying through their bank using a credit card (this is assuming that the company doesn't want to break the law). A 3rd party (government) signed hash could be required for all transaction to prove legality. Deep packet inspection could be used to locate people who send bitcoin transactions (by default transactions are far from anonymous). Offline seizure could be used to prove large wallets illegality (e.g. if they tracked down silk road owners). There are plenty of algorithms that can infer people you might know based on your FB friends friends, I'm sure they can be easily applied to transactions.