11 ms·

Another awesome US immigration experience

211 points by nphase 14y ago

iloveponies 14y ago
So I've experienced something similar minus the overcrowded room with British immigration. I watched the immigration official turn from apathy the moment I handed my passport over into passive agression with loaded questions ("When was the last time you were deported?" answer: "never") into apologies ("Sorry for making you wait sir there clearly has been a misunderstanding") to vague answers to the question of future prevention. After being told "and there's nothing you can do to stop this happening again", I tell every British immigration official I stand before briefly what happens every time I want to come back here and they're usually understanding about it all.
- UnoriginalGuy 14y ago
  British immigration are as bad as US immigration. They aren't even polite, which as a Brit' myself I am both shocked and disappointed with. I'd like to see changes there...
  - X-Istence 14y ago
    Until you Brits do away with the requirement for me to go through the porno scanners I refuse to visit the country. Sorry, but just because I am traveling from your country doesn't mean I want to go through a machine that to date still hasn't been verifiable been tested by a 3rd party to not have negative health risks associated with it.
    - iloveponies 14y ago
      As someone who goes in and out of the UK on a regular basis, this is news to me as I've yet to be subjected to full body scanners.
      - X-Istence 14y ago
        http://www.independent.co.uk/travel/news-and-advice/no-optout-for-passengers-on-body-scanners-6265565.html http://www.independent.co.uk/travel/news-and-advice/no-optou... http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/ca6c8bd4-142b-11e1-b07b-00144feabdc0.html http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/ca6c8bd4-142b-11e1-b07b-00144feabd... http://www.prisonplanet.com/despite-eu-ban-uk-makes-radiation-firing-body-scanners-compulsory.html http://www.prisonplanet.com/despite-eu-ban-uk-makes-radiatio...
jfb 14y ago
I like particularly the sneering attitude of superiority towards the initial immigration officer in this article. I'm no apologist for the US immigration system (Canada's, on the other hand, I have nothing but good words for), but Jesus creeping Christ, having to deal with that sort of entitled horseshit ten hours a day would turn the Buddha into Dick Cheney.
- seldo 14y ago
  I can see why you'd think that, but I was totally polite and respectful to the immigration officer at all times -- like I said, I'm a very nervous immigrant, so I would never do anything to jeopardize my processing. I don't fidget or roll my eyes, or indicate impatience. While I'm no fan of the staff of the USCIS, I would never say anything to them to indicate it. Apart from it being very impolite, it would be stupid, and I am TERRIFIED of these guys.
  - jfb 14y ago
    I understand the terror, particularly of the US ICE people, who are unnecessarily militarized at the best of times. But why the puerile jab at the officer's "educational attainment"? Needed to feel big? Story wasn't "punchy" enough?
    - seldo 14y ago
      Partly because I think it's a relevant detail -- I think he genuinely didn't understand that a web developer is a type of software developer. But partly because they scared the shit out of me, and the system is stupid and unnecessarily hostile, so, yes, I'm angry at them.
      - deleted 14y ago
        [deleted]
      - jfb 14y ago
        It's not only insulting and juvenile, it's irrelevant. I've met PhDs from the LSE who wouldn't know the difference between email and snail mail, but that's not material to a) how good they were at their jobs or b) whether or not they were good people. The system is stupid, and hostile, and (in my opinion) totally self-defeating. And people -- normal, decent people -- will act like petty little tyrants in that sort of system. Isn't that sufficient to call them out? An asshole is an asshole, regardless of their eduction, no? EDIT: Too, it may very well be material that you gave a different answer. There's only one word different between "landscape architect" and "naval architect", and those are significantly and materially different positions. How is J. Random Tyrant supposed to know that a is a member of the set b for all given a? EDIT the second: Man, I was in love with the word "material", eh?
codegeek 14y ago
Seems like you name might be similar to a name they had in their database who might have the criminal/arrest record. These are false hits and irritating but once the verify, they let you go. Hope they correct it soon for you. Also, sometimes they randomly (not sure how random though) select individuals for what they call "secondary inspection". Here, you are just asked "extra" questions to ensure you are not a threat. I was pulled over once and the guy had a great time asking me all kinds of questions.
- seldo 14y ago
  It's highly unlikely to be a name match -- my name is not very common, and combined with my gender is literally globally unique: there is no other male called Laurie Voss in the whole world.
  - DoubleMalt 14y ago
    See ... very suspicious. No MAN is called Laurie. Seriously. Sorry for your experence. WIll try to avoid MIA, as this is not the first bad story I heard from there.
deleted 14y ago
[deleted]
rajeshd 14y ago
His experience doesn't seem all that bad. It looks like they were merely doing their jobs trying to ascertain that they aren't making a mistake letting him in. If the immigration officer isn't sure of something (either because of an unclear answer to a question or a nervous vibe), it's not abnormal for him/her to ask for a more thorough check of the person. I wouldn't expect them to clear everyone with a quick, cursory glance of a passport or a green card. I sympathize with him, but it doesn't look like his rights were violated in anyway.
- GiraffeNecktie 14y ago
  You're setting a very, very, low bar for "doing their jobs". The reason we employ human beings at border points is so that they will, theoretically, use good judgement to allow the free flow of legitimate goods and travelers (i.e. not create massive delays without a clear reason).
rdl 14y ago
I hate how hostile and incompetent the US immigration process seems to be for foreigners. It's sad to go by an embassy basically anywhere in the world, see the fortress that is the US embassy, and the huge lines and amount of documentation needed for people to get US visas. Even worse is the non-deterministic hell on actual arrival. I'm glad I've never had immigration or customs problems anywhere, despite going to some really sketchy places (flying into Iraq as a civilian at the civilian airport with no visa a few times after the invasion...) or otherwise bending the rules ($200k in computers, including 6 big 21" CRTs, on my way to set up an office in Anguilla...).
- mailshanx 14y ago
  Whats the backstory?
- jzwinck 14y ago
  I'm a US citizen, and recently visited my embassy abroad. I was denied entry and told to make an appointment. The first available was about 10 days away. This was for a simple document I needed signed by them. And I was leaving this country in less than 10 days. The guard who turned me away said they used to take walk-ins but not since mid-2012. So as far as embassies go, being a citizen doesn't help too much.
  - patrickod 14y ago
    My experience with US embassies (both the one in Brussels and Dublin) has never seen them refuse entry to a US citizen and tell them to re-schedule. They usually have separate entrances as well with different procedures.
    - jzwinck 14y ago
      Well this was in London. It's a large embassy obviously. They do have separate entrances--we went to the US Citizens one. We were blocked from even entering the security lobby at all--the outermost door to the street was locked and the guard who cracked it open gave us a postcard with the embassy contact information to make an appointment. I called them immediately and explained I was in front of their building and could I make an "appointment" for right then, but they said I had to use the website. Which told me there was a 10-day wait. As I said, apparently this practice was instituted just last year.
zee007 14y ago
I had many similar run-ins with immigration when I worked for Microsoft in the Redmond area (brown guy with a beard, likes to travel the world [sometimes taking trips as short as one weekend]). I've missed more than my share of flights (at one time my name was in the do-not-fly list because it partially matched the name of someone they wanted). Final straw came when one time I was returning from an international trip with my x-wife and kids when the immigration officer decided she didn't qualify to accompany me (we were married at the time). "No big deal, she'll just fly back to Canada" (we're Canadians). We were told she couldn't do that, she had to be deported to the country she came from. "But sir, we just had a single entry visa and cannot re-enter". "That's not my problem, the law is the law. You need to be deported back to countryX". "But sir, we have no ties to countryX. We dont have visa to countryX. We have a Canadian passport, if you dont want to admit us then let us just turn around and go to Canada". "Oh y'all can come in, but she can't". So I ask for a supervisor and he refused (I later learned he wasn't allowed to do that). Had us sit there for many hours with cranky kids after a transatlantic flight and then said: "You can take her now (take her??) but I'll hold on to her passport. She can come before the judge in 30 days with the document and collect her passport or she'll be deported to countryX". I had to unnecessarily waste time and money hiring a lawyer to figure out what the heck went wrong. She showed up 30 days later with our lawyer and the judge couldn't figure out why she was there. Gave us the passport. My x-wife dropped me home, told me to pack up and drove up to Toronto the same day. Even though I was about to get my green card (everything including labour cert was done) I told my employer to halt the process and moved back. For next few years I continued to work for US companies but remotely from Canada and pulled in close to $1 million in salary and stocks over the years that IRS wasn't able to tax at all. Canadian economy (not the American economy) benefited from my well over average spending over these years. I can wrap my mind around "your name is similar to xyz we are looking for [even though xyz was a different ethnicity with a different age, height and everything]. But for me this made me realize how vulnerable non-citizens are when it comes to US immigration and border patrol. To this day I have no idea what ticked that guy off to single us out like that but I decided I did not want to live in a country where I had such little rights. I am well educated, make a lot of charitable contributions and spend a lot of time volunteering in the local community. Everything the US used to benefit from but now Canada does.
jacquesm 14y ago
As long as you feel the benefits outweigh the downsides the only person you can complain to is yourself. You're still going there aren't you? I've had an episode quite comparable to this one and it was the last time I visited the US. I don't bitch about it, I don't begrudge the border guards their jobs or attitude (I assume they get a lot of shit heaped on them every day, not an excuse for a non-professional attitude but I'm sure that it eventually wears you down). I simply took my few-hundred-K per year benefit for the US elsewhere, their loss. Don't like US immigration? Good, don't emigrate to the US. Once enough people do this that it starts to affect the US GDP I'm sure there will be some change. As long as everybody accepts it this will continue or it will even get worse. I had a pretty lucrative offer about two years ago to become involved in a company. The catch: the work had to be done in the United States. No thanks... But call me when the TSA is abandoned and the border guards are no longer treating immigrants like shit. You know, the way it used to be before everybody went crazy. And on an off-topic and non-related note, additional conditions would be that Guantanamo is closed, the US ceases its drone program and the CIA gets thoroughly reamed for their 'renditions' program, including full exposure of all parties that were involved domestically and abroad. Until then the US will have to do without me, I'm quite sure they don't care one bit.
- rdtsc 14y ago
  > I don't bitch about it, I don't begrudge the border guards their jobs or attitude Is it because of lack of time? It seems like those are general problems and highlighting them in some form might help improve the situation. Sometimes it just takes a model story "An investor is turned away by power tripping and unprofessional immigration officer" or something like that. Maybe it won't be the story but one of thousands out there.
  - jacquesm 14y ago
    I really don't think it is my problem to solve. There is no upside to me from writing that. Such blog posts you can find by the thousands, and yet nothing changes. When Obama first became president I had some hope that things would this time change for the better. But he's as much a chip off the old block as the guys before him. Let's just say that I'm disappointed in how the US has squandered its goodwill and potential over the last decade and a bit but it's entirely theirs to squander. China and India are the entities that stand to gain the most from this and in another few decades you'll learn just how much was lost. The US is still #1 in exporting its IP (and is trying hard to get proxy laws enacted the world over by using the WTO/WIPO/Worldbank triumvirate as a means of strong-arming the unwilling), they've outsourced an irresponsibly large portion of their manufacturing capability and they're in debt at a level that can only be described as reckless. This will go on for quite a while but it won't go on forever, if the US does not learn to play nice and responsibly with others then in the longer term this will take care of itself. Look at what's left of the former superpower known as the UK to see how fast you can fall. My writing or not writing a blog post is not going to make one shred of a difference in this respect, these wheels are moving and have an inertia of their own. Stopping them or reversing their direction will have to be done from within rather than without. When I quit going to the United States I essentially gave up, thinking that within my lifetime things will not be getting any better.
ryan 14y ago
If you have a green card you can avoid this by signing up for Global Entry[1]. Then you can avoid customs lines and just swipe your card at the kiosk - enter the country without ever talking to anyone. As an extra benefit the kiosk is always empty so you are through in minutes... hmm maybe I shouldn't be spreading the word about this :) [1] http://www.globalentry.gov/ http://www.globalentry.gov/
- onetwothreefour 14y ago
  Serious question: can you be non-white and get one of these?
  - surfmike 14y ago
    Uh, yes. A (non-white) friend of mine has it. The program also allows South Korean and Dutch citizens to enroll.
  - Samuel_Michon 14y ago
    "Global Entry is also available to citizens of the Netherlands who are enrolled Privium, Canadian NEXUS members and Korean SES members. Global Entry is also available to citizens of Mexico." [1] Mexicans and Koreans tend not to be caucasian, so at least some non-whites can get one of these. Not sure whether you would want one, though. It sounds pretty intrusive. "Travelers must be pre-approved for the Global Entry program. All applicants undergo a rigorous background check and interview before enrollment." [2] Also, the system relies on a fingerprint scanner. Since I have no fingerprints (due to medication), I would receive a big ole 'X' on my receipt every time. "If the kiosk receipt has an “X” printed on it, then you must report to a CBP officer. Please report to the nearest staffed CBP passport control station. You do not have to get back in line. The CBP officer at the passport control booth will review your documents, determine the reason the “X” was printed on the receipt and either release you from there or refer you to “secondary” for additional processing. The “X” can mean many different things: random inspection; you have items to declare; you have duty to pay; you have agriculture products that need to be examined; your membership may need review; your fingerprints may not have matched, the system may have trouble completing the transaction; you may have timed out on one of the screens, or other issues. " [1] http://www.globalentry.gov/faq.html http://www.globalentry.gov/faq.html [2] http://www.globalentry.gov/about.html http://www.globalentry.gov/about.html
photorized 14y ago
As someone who went though lengthy (10+ years) immigration process, from student visa to work visa to Green Card to Citizenship, with extensive travel in between - there is nothing particularly unreasonable about the experience described. OK, so he was delayed for a few hours, due to some error or inconsistency in the USCIS database... There's no reason to freak out. And the condescending remarks about the officer not knowing the difference between "web developer" and "software developer" were unnecessary.
- deleted 14y ago
  [deleted]
  - meej 14y ago
    The footer at seldo.com refers to Laurie as 'he'.
    - jacquesm 14y ago
      You're right!
  - seldo 14y ago
    I promise I'm male, Jacques :-)
    - jacquesm 14y ago
      Hehe, yes, my bad :) Apologies!
Permit 14y ago
>They keep taking breaks to crack off-color jokes about each other’s sex lives, and moan about how hard they’re having to work tonight. The jokes might be uncalled for, but you just told us they were under-staffed and had hundreds of extra people to process. I can see why they'd be upset. Especially when absolutely zero of the hundreds of people they talk to in a day are happy to see them. I get the impression you've never worked in the service industry or in retail. The immense fuckup that is United States immigration is not the fault of its lowest level employees.
- deleted 14y ago
  [deleted]
- mscarborough 14y ago
  One of the first rules of service industry is that you don't complain about your job in front of the customers. I haven't worked retail but have done plenty of years in restaurants. I'm not sure how you can use "you've never worked in the service industry" as some kind of trump card, as this kind of behavior could easily get you fired from any half-decent service industry position.
  - tolmasky 14y ago
    That's in a private company. Here, for all practical purposes, there is no incentive for things to get better. There is no one to complain to since the "customers" here are completely antagonized and have no power, imagine on top of all this complaining! There really isn't anyone to be held accountable, period. And no, "voting" is not the way these things get fixed. if it was, the DMV would have stopped being miserable ages ago: 1. As mentioned above, the people most affected can't vote. 2. Even if they could, it's not clear at all how to use your vote to affect change. Which candidate exactly represents better service at government agencies? 3. Even if you knew, you get effectively four federal representative choices that could affect this (president, 2 senators, and 1 house representative). In those 4 choices you must weigh all your grievances. How high on the list is immigration staffing going to be? The reality is that our system is not set up to deal with this kind of particular issue well. There's no good gradual feedback loop. Things have to get really bad, beyond where it's clear exactly what caused the problems, to the point where huge sweeping changes get made, probably over zealous and too far in the opposite direction then.
ajg1977 14y ago
Pointless, wasteful bureaucracy I think few people would consider border controls to be any of these things. You were flagged somehow and that sucks, but if you don't like the immigration procedures of the US you are free to either a) live elsewhere or b) try to take action to change it (we are a democracy after all). On the other hand, venting on a blog isn't going to do anything but irk people who wish they were fortunate enough to hold a US green card, or come back to haunt you if this happens again and some cranky overworked agent google's you. FWIW I'm a former, now naturalized, US green card holder and this happened to me twice in six years. It sucks, but I considered it a very small price to pay for being able to freely travel and work (or not work!) in this country.
- natrius 14y ago
  "Venting on a blog" is most certainly considered action in a democracy. That's basically what the Federalist Papers were.
  - ajg1977 14y ago
    Aye, they were just some guys blowing out their frustrations. Or not.
DrSbaitso 14y ago
I'm a Canadian citizen and get this type of treatment all the time. Every time I enter the US, which is about once a month or so, they send me to a back room for secondary screening. The reason? Their system thinks I overstayed my visa once back in 1995. What actually happened was my family took a road trip to New England, and nobody bothered to check our passports on the way out, so there was no departure record. So for the last 18 years, they've sent me back for questioning every single time, wasting countless hours of both my time and their time. They always ask me if I worked illegally in the States in 1995 and I just tell them, "No, I was nine years old." When I ask them if they can remove the flag on my account, they say it's impossible because only the government department that created the flag can remove it, and that department no longer exists.
- opinali 14y ago
  "they say it's impossible because only the government department that created the flag can remove it, and that department no longer exists" -- omg, real-world Kafkian anecdote...
  - _pferreir_ 14y ago
    I think Kafka foresaw all of this. The man was a Genius.
- 3825 14y ago
  you needed a visa in 1995 to come to the US? Why? Could you not get a waiver? o.O
  - DrSbaitso 14y ago
    It was before I became a Canadian citizen, but yeah, it would have been on the Visa Waiver Program. So technically they think I overstayed my visa waiver.
- kafkaesque 14y ago
  I'm a Canadian citizen. I live in the States. Without getting into too much detail, I pretty much go around feeling paranoid. When I think about it logically, I really have absolutely no reason to be this way. I sometimes ask myself why I'm here and when the day I finally leave will come, if it ever comes.
surfmike 14y ago
It's embarrassing how poorly people are treated when entering the US. We should put pressure on the government to improve that, but also pragmatically if we want to keep attracting talented people from around the world we really need to change this. For the time being, I'd highly recommend to the poster to enter into Global Entry (people with PR are eligible: http://www.globalentry.gov/eligibility.html http://www.globalentry.gov/eligibility.html)
- smsm42 14y ago
  Second that. All you need is your papers, short interview in a closest major airport and you don't have to do this passport-fingerprint-photo stuff anymore.
trimbo 14y ago
This story is true the world over. A friend got deported from India the other day for a mistake they (as in the Indian government) made on his visa.
rjzzleep 14y ago
welcome to how germany treats their own citizen
- sourishkrout 14y ago
  BS
Mvandenbergh 14y ago
There is nothing unique to the US about this in my experience. There is literally one part of the government that deals (by definition) with people who cannot vote and do not have elected representatives. If you want to know what it's like dealing with government agents in highly undemocratic countries, it's precisely this. Except it's every day and it's in your own country.
smsm42 14y ago
Let's look at the incentives. The picture here is not pretty. There's a big incentive to squeeze budgets, of course, anybody who watches US politics knows you can't just get any money you want, especially when there's 2 dozen another 3-letter agencies competing for the same. There's some incentive to serve citizens better - since once in the country, the citizen can call his congressmen or his local paper and raise hell if he was mistreated, and if bureaucratic middle-management hates something it is being featured in bad press and asked unpleasant question by his superiors. But when it comes to visitors, there's pretty much zero incentive to treat them better. I'm not saying that immediately leads to bad treatment - I am a non-citizen, I crossed US border more than a dozen times last few years and always was treated with courtesy and respect, which I assign to the good nature of the people that worked there. But there always are bad apples, and there's very little that can keep those in check. If the immigration officer mistakenly denies entry or costs a person 5 hours of their life, there are no consequences, ever. So these things are bound to happen, unless some kind of incentive to become better will be found.
- seldo 14y ago
  One of those incentives could be if US citizens decided to complain about the immigration system -- the point of the post is to attempt to marginally contribute towards that happening.
  - jakejake 14y ago
    As sad as it may be I don't think the average US citizen is concerned about a 5-hour delay for non-citizens at the border. The ordinary Joe is likely to be OK with 200 people being delayed if that results in a few people being deported and 1 person being hauled off to jail (which is pretty much what the OP said happened). I have a feeling the "average" consensus would be that it was worth in in order to keep those 4 people out. I'm not saying I agree with this whatsoever - I'm just saying my gut tells me this mentality is likely to get you more votes if you are running for office in a border state. The average citizen is not thinking about the relatively small number of skilled IT workers and entrepreneurs entering the country. They are thinking about all of the unskilled labor that is coming in and "taking their jobs" as some people perceive. That, plus I'm sure there is an aspect of "doesn't affect me - I have my own problems to worry about".
zobzu 14y ago
I entered quite a few times under visa so far and my experience has been more than fine (in fact, it's even been pleasant). Hopefully, it'll never get to what you've had. It happened a couple of times that the officer wasn't sure if I was doing what I said I was, for whatever reason, and they generally just asked a follow up question like "do you have an access card for this company and can I see it?" which resolved the matter every time. Didn't realize it was so close to "wait in the horror room for hours".
- jzwinck 14y ago
  Ironically, it is poor security practice to print names on access cards. But it is fairly common.
dkokelley 14y ago
I would not want to be a non-citizen in America. I love my country, but I agree with the general sentiment that we have things very wrong when it comes to treatment of non-citizens. I believe that much of it stems from fears about 9/11. The Bill of Rights does lots to protect US citizens from an agressive/repressive government. The spirit of the law is that there are basic human rights that the government can't remove without due process. Unfortunately those "human" rights in practice only barely apply to US citizens.
- philwelch 14y ago
  Perhaps when entering the country, and there is a risk of deportation, and the difficulty of immigrating legally puts far too many people on unsafe footing due to the constant risk of being reported, but on a basic, everyday level you have the same rights. If you get pulled over on the road, the cop can't search your car without a warrant, whether you're a US citizen or just a tourist.
  - dkokelley 14y ago
    This is true, but I would argue that it's only true because of the assumption that random driver being pulled over is a citizen (or rather that you can't ask a citizen if he or she is a citizen. This was part of the big deal with Arizona's new laws a year or two ago). When writing my post, I was considering the "unlimited detainment", and lack of due process for non-citizens in too many special cases.
cunac 14y ago
I am Canadian citizen and for two years I was traveling every second week to US on TN visa. In all that time I got 1 "bad" experience from US side and 2 from Canadian side. (it wasn't that bad just longer questioning with 'trick' questions) Question which confused me a most entering Canada was "How long you plan to stay ?" , WTF , I have Canadian passport ? It took me a moment not to say "Not your damn business." and just play nice.... But in general crossing border is 99% no issue
tmktmk 14y ago
This is the biggest non-problem ever: 1) Did the author get in? Yes 2) Did customs do their job and scrutinize the person's paperwork? Yes 3) Was the person held for an inordinately long time? No -- 3 hours is not a "long time." If you can't deal with the fact that you just flew (potentially) halfway across the world in an airplane 4) Was the author unduly molested or given harsh treatment, perhaps by being denied food, water, medication, or otherwise harassed? No -- the author points out that there was a water fountain and snack machines, and the author was not strip searched, nor was he otherwise harassed/degraded. Sitting in a waiting room while your paperwork clears is "not a big deal." Please stop blowing things out of proportion, and criticizing the US for no reason. I've immigrated to and lived in 3 different countries, and BY FAR the procedure described here is not difficult or tedious. If you can't deal with a a 3 hour wait, how can you deal with anything? Patience is a virtue. BTW -- I was a paying awe.sm customer -- I just cancelled my account due to this overblown blog posting. Enjoy.
y1426i 14y ago
This is not an immigration issue. There is no place for common sense in government matters. Some day computers will take over the decision making and we will have a joyous experience coming in or happily avoid this country because the decision will be known.
tlear 14y ago
Was coming back from NYC (vacation over Christmas) and got the typical BS bully treatment by the security guy, I made a decision there, I will not go on vacation to US ever again.
tinbad 14y ago
As a non-US citizen, I've had similar experiences where I was taken apart and asked some more questions by border patrol. However none of those experiences, although very similar to yours, came over as unnecessary harassment. I don't quiet understand why you would be 'terrified' crossing the border if you have all your shit together, which it seems you have. The people "whose educational attainments have qualified them to sit behind a desk stamping passports" were simply doing their job and from what you described they did it without causing more inconvenience for you than necessary. Like some others commented, if you don't like to abide by the rules of your new country of residence, nobody is forcing you to be there. Oh, and downplaying other people's intellectual abilities does come across quiet snobbish :)
ta201301 14y ago
This is precisely the sort of nonsense that made me decide to leave my job a few years ago. I used to work for <household name Internet technology company>. After some re-structuring I would have had to travel to the US a lot more often, or possibly even move to the US. For me it wasn't really worth it. The dehumanizing experience of subjecting myself to dangerously stupid, underpaid, over-empowered, assholes on a bi-weekly basis made the decision easy. While I do love California, and the Bay Area in particular, it is still inside the US. And I do not enjoy travelling to the US. To get to the US you have to go through the twilight zone that is immigration and customs. Not to mention the TSA. I can remember travelling to germany as a kid during the Baader-Meinhof terrorist era. I can remember that I felt it was somewhat unpleasant being pointed at by germans with sub-machine guns. But you know what: they were not even half as frightening as the sort of personel you encounter when travelling to, from or within the US. Because with the germans you at least have the sense that the people holding the gungs are not the lowest life-forms of their society. But I am not complaining. Taking this choice meant that I had to figure out what to do. And now, some years later, over 100 people have jobs because I don't want to travel to the US ever again.
aneth4 14y ago
Immigration processes millions of people each day. There are going to be mistakes. This sounds like they got a false positive, investigated, and released him. That's how the process is supposed to work. Making this into some massive anti-American rant says more about the author than America. This experience sounds unpleasant, but like it was handled professionally. I've spent an hour being searched by customs. I don't know why - perhaps because I was returning from India and hadn't shaved in a month. It was inconvenient, but also the job of customs. This did not bother me. I fly domestically and internationally at least 20 times a year. I get caught up briefly in all sorts of different ways all over the world. It's part of travel, and it's really not that bad. This is how nations protect their borders and enforce their laws, because not everyone is a saint like you. All you idiots saying you won't work in or travel to the US because of the TSA searches - give me a break. EVERY country in the world I have ever been to has nearly identical search procedures as the TSA and most countries have stringent immigration checks. Many asking far more probing questions than American immigration, including Netherlands, Israel, and Britain. I was nearly denied entry to Britain because I didn't know the address of a friend who I was staying with. Sorry, I'm tired of all this false outrage about minor f-ups with the TSA and DHS. These organizations have some major policy and procedural problems, but a few hours one time while immigration officials do their job of making sure you don't have false documents is not among them. If you don't like it, go somewhere else where a $20 bribe instead of an objective investigation gets you admitted - which is most countries in the world.
- nottrobin 14y ago
  When was the last time you had to wait in one crowded room for 3 hours without being allowed to use your phone, and without a seat? The last time I was in a situation anywhere close to this was when I accompanied my girlfriend to get her visa renewed in London. We had to wait for about 5 hours in a fairly crowded hot room with pretty uncomfortable seats. But we had each other's company and while there was a sign saying we weren't allowed to use electronic devices, most people seemed to be ignoring it, so it wasn't so bad. But still worse than anything I ever have to experience in my normal travel as a white British man.
  - 14y ago
thawt 14y ago
I haven't seen anyone say it, but I can tell you that the experience of entering the US as a US citizen is only marginally better. Leaving/entering the US is something I avoid at all costs. Sad but true.
blago 14y ago
I am a US citizen and I had a similar experience. About a year ago I spent a few months in Asia while working remotely for my US employer. Reentering the states (after an almost 24 hour trip), the border agent really didn't like the fact and went out of his way to find a hole in my "story" - "So you did work in Asia?", "But your company did not send you there?" This dragged on for a while. This was the climax of the confrontation: - "Have you been in trouble with law enforcement before?" - "No, but you make it sound like I am now. Am I?" - "We'll see" - "I am a law abiding citizen and I've been giving honest answers to all of you questions. What can I possibly be afraid of?" Ever since, I DREAD reentering the states. I have dual citizenship, work flexibility, and friends and family all over the place. I find myself spending less and less time in the US.
_pferreir_ 14y ago
I know what you mean. The bureaucratic establishment allows people in low ranking public jobs to have a disproportionate amount of power over pretty much anyone. 9/11 seems to have made things worse for pretty much everyone. Governments went paranoid and chose the easy way: delegating extra authority on people that were not prepared to exert it. But border guards tend to be dumb and/or rude pretty much everywhere, so, don't take it too seriously.
madaxe 14y ago
I have a simple solution for not dealing with US immigration's bullshit. Too many trips marred by days spent in featureless rooms waiting for Godot, a full-time employee of your border agency. Anyway - simple solution - don't go to America. Don't work with Americans. Europe and Asia are big markets.
stickdick 14y ago
There's somebody on the US no-fly list that has the exact same name as me. I can't check-in online with any airline, and checking in at the desk anywhere in the US results in some sort of warning on their computer, and a quick call to somebody to come out from the back and check it out. Unfortunately I have to fly at least once a month. A quick look over the passport shows it's obviously not me (though I don't have any details of the real bad guy). Must happen to quite a few because I have a fairly bland, common British name.
- UnoriginalGuy 14y ago
  Didn't they try to resolve this by issuing redress numbers or whatever? When I enter my passport on most airline's web-sites it gives me the option to add a redress number, which in theory should allow them to identify you as NOT the individual on the no-fly list. See this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_Fly_List#DHS_Traveler_Redress_Inquiry_Program http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_Fly_List#DHS_Traveler_Redres...
  - stickdick 14y ago
    Interesting. I've never really looked into it, I just get over the fact I have to check-in at the airport, and over time it's become less embarrassing since I just expect to see the assistants face drop in panic, and be pulled to the side. It's never been mentioned to me either. I'm not actually a US citizen, so perhaps it doesn't apply. I'll look into it further, thanks for the advice.
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gadders 14y ago
I know everyone hates on the US Immigration people, but as a fairly regular traveller to the US (normally at least twice a year, mixture of business and pleasure), I've never had a bad experience. The guards I've dealt with have never been less than professional, and some have gone out of their way to make smalltalk ("You have nice handwriting" (?), "Your birthday is the same as mine.") etc. I even got let back through immigration from baggage control as I had a bad stomach and really badly needed to use the toilet, No guns were drawn on me. Of course, it probably helps that I'm white and British, but I thought I would offer up at least one counterpoint.
alexkus 14y ago
My first two attempts at entry to the US on my H1-B were simple, maybe one question and in I go. It was the third entry that they asked more questions and asked to see more paperwork (which I did have with me). I guess it's to catch people who obtain visa/green-cards and then pass them off to others or their situation changes (and they no longer qualify for the visa). I'd also guess that frequent visitors to the US go through at least one of these increased scrutiny experiences every few years. I don't think it's unreasonable given the amount of problems they have with people trying to sneak into the country; I know that I don't have a right to be there so I expect some hassle. The only other problem I had was coming back into the US after I'd gone to Canada for a friend's wedding (all on a VWP); so UK->US, then two weeks later US->Canada->US, and I wasn't due to fly back to the UK for another 2 weeks or so. I was nowhere near the 90 days of my original VWP, but they might have thought I was taking a quick trip to Canada in order to reset my 90 days with a new VWP entry. It just took a few extra minutes explanation. Other than that I've done lots of trips to the US (20 on the Visa Waiver Program, 5 with my H1-B and another 10 or so since I moved back to the UK) with no problems at all.
nottrobin 14y ago
Thanks so much for sharing this. I think treatment of immigrants by border controls is shocking, and the biggest problem is how little attention / voice the problem gets. Please continue to write about your experiences.
flavmartins 14y ago
I completely agree with your feelings here. I, too, am a permanent resident with a green card. I live in fear of immigration deciding that "something isn't in order" and then my life is completely upside down. I've grown up in the US, my wife is a US citizen, my kids are all US citizens, yet dad always has that crazy worry in the back of his mind. AND...for those of you who brush this off. Please contact my wife and ask her feelings about immigration. When I was going through my green card process she just about went nuts at the immigration office and destroyed a few of the workers. Eventually she had to stop coming to the appointments and just wished me luck. She is more frustrated with the process than I am. The problem is that we're talking about immigrants here. No one is going to stand up for them. Citizens never have to deal with the these issues, and most immigrants, once they've gone through the process, never want to look back on it again, let alone try to fight it.
donohoe 14y ago
This is why I choose citizenship. I have kids so I cannot risk some guy having a bad day at the border ruining my life.

211 points by nphase 14y ago

So I've experienced something similar minus the overcrowded room with British immigration. I watched the immigration official turn from apathy the moment I handed my passport over into passive agression with loaded questions ("When was the last time you were deported?" answer: "never") into apologies ("Sorry for making you wait sir there clearly has been a misunderstanding") to vague answers to the question of future prevention. After being told "and there's nothing you can do to stop this happening again", I tell every British immigration official I stand before briefly what happens every time I want to come back here and they're usually understanding about it all.

UnoriginalGuy 14y ago
British immigration are as bad as US immigration. They aren't even polite, which as a Brit' myself I am both shocked and disappointed with. I'd like to see changes there...
- X-Istence 14y ago
  Until you Brits do away with the requirement for me to go through the porno scanners I refuse to visit the country. Sorry, but just because I am traveling from your country doesn't mean I want to go through a machine that to date still hasn't been verifiable been tested by a 3rd party to not have negative health risks associated with it.
  - iloveponies 14y ago
    As someone who goes in and out of the UK on a regular basis, this is news to me as I've yet to be subjected to full body scanners.
    - X-Istence 14y ago
      http://www.independent.co.uk/travel/news-and-advice/no-optout-for-passengers-on-body-scanners-6265565.html http://www.independent.co.uk/travel/news-and-advice/no-optou... http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/ca6c8bd4-142b-11e1-b07b-00144feabdc0.html http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/ca6c8bd4-142b-11e1-b07b-00144feabd... http://www.prisonplanet.com/despite-eu-ban-uk-makes-radiation-firing-body-scanners-compulsory.html http://www.prisonplanet.com/despite-eu-ban-uk-makes-radiatio...

jfb 14y ago

I like particularly the sneering attitude of superiority towards the initial immigration officer in this article. I'm no apologist for the US immigration system (Canada's, on the other hand, I have nothing but good words for), but Jesus creeping Christ, having to deal with that sort of entitled horseshit ten hours a day would turn the Buddha into Dick Cheney.

seldo 14y ago
I can see why you'd think that, but I was totally polite and respectful to the immigration officer at all times -- like I said, I'm a very nervous immigrant, so I would never do anything to jeopardize my processing. I don't fidget or roll my eyes, or indicate impatience. While I'm no fan of the staff of the USCIS, I would never say anything to them to indicate it. Apart from it being very impolite, it would be stupid, and I am TERRIFIED of these guys.
- jfb 14y ago
  I understand the terror, particularly of the US ICE people, who are unnecessarily militarized at the best of times. But why the puerile jab at the officer's "educational attainment"? Needed to feel big? Story wasn't "punchy" enough?
  - seldo 14y ago
    Partly because I think it's a relevant detail -- I think he genuinely didn't understand that a web developer is a type of software developer. But partly because they scared the shit out of me, and the system is stupid and unnecessarily hostile, so, yes, I'm angry at them.
    - deleted 14y ago
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    - jfb 14y ago
      It's not only insulting and juvenile, it's irrelevant. I've met PhDs from the LSE who wouldn't know the difference between email and snail mail, but that's not material to a) how good they were at their jobs or b) whether or not they were good people. The system is stupid, and hostile, and (in my opinion) totally self-defeating. And people -- normal, decent people -- will act like petty little tyrants in that sort of system. Isn't that sufficient to call them out? An asshole is an asshole, regardless of their eduction, no? EDIT: Too, it may very well be material that you gave a different answer. There's only one word different between "landscape architect" and "naval architect", and those are significantly and materially different positions. How is J. Random Tyrant supposed to know that a is a member of the set b for all given a? EDIT the second: Man, I was in love with the word "material", eh?

codegeek 14y ago

Seems like you name might be similar to a name they had in their database who might have the criminal/arrest record. These are false hits and irritating but once the verify, they let you go. Hope they correct it soon for you. Also, sometimes they randomly (not sure how random though) select individuals for what they call "secondary inspection". Here, you are just asked "extra" questions to ensure you are not a threat. I was pulled over once and the guy had a great time asking me all kinds of questions.

seldo 14y ago
It's highly unlikely to be a name match -- my name is not very common, and combined with my gender is literally globally unique: there is no other male called Laurie Voss in the whole world.
- DoubleMalt 14y ago
  See ... very suspicious. No MAN is called Laurie. Seriously. Sorry for your experence. WIll try to avoid MIA, as this is not the first bad story I heard from there.

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rajeshd 14y ago

His experience doesn't seem all that bad. It looks like they were merely doing their jobs trying to ascertain that they aren't making a mistake letting him in. If the immigration officer isn't sure of something (either because of an unclear answer to a question or a nervous vibe), it's not abnormal for him/her to ask for a more thorough check of the person. I wouldn't expect them to clear everyone with a quick, cursory glance of a passport or a green card. I sympathize with him, but it doesn't look like his rights were violated in anyway.

GiraffeNecktie 14y ago
You're setting a very, very, low bar for "doing their jobs". The reason we employ human beings at border points is so that they will, theoretically, use good judgement to allow the free flow of legitimate goods and travelers (i.e. not create massive delays without a clear reason).

rdl 14y ago

I hate how hostile and incompetent the US immigration process seems to be for foreigners. It's sad to go by an embassy basically anywhere in the world, see the fortress that is the US embassy, and the huge lines and amount of documentation needed for people to get US visas. Even worse is the non-deterministic hell on actual arrival. I'm glad I've never had immigration or customs problems anywhere, despite going to some really sketchy places (flying into Iraq as a civilian at the civilian airport with no visa a few times after the invasion...) or otherwise bending the rules ($200k in computers, including 6 big 21" CRTs, on my way to set up an office in Anguilla...).

mailshanx 14y ago
Whats the backstory?
jzwinck 14y ago
I'm a US citizen, and recently visited my embassy abroad. I was denied entry and told to make an appointment. The first available was about 10 days away. This was for a simple document I needed signed by them. And I was leaving this country in less than 10 days. The guard who turned me away said they used to take walk-ins but not since mid-2012. So as far as embassies go, being a citizen doesn't help too much.
- patrickod 14y ago
  My experience with US embassies (both the one in Brussels and Dublin) has never seen them refuse entry to a US citizen and tell them to re-schedule. They usually have separate entrances as well with different procedures.
  - jzwinck 14y ago
    Well this was in London. It's a large embassy obviously. They do have separate entrances--we went to the US Citizens one. We were blocked from even entering the security lobby at all--the outermost door to the street was locked and the guard who cracked it open gave us a postcard with the embassy contact information to make an appointment. I called them immediately and explained I was in front of their building and could I make an "appointment" for right then, but they said I had to use the website. Which told me there was a 10-day wait. As I said, apparently this practice was instituted just last year.

zee007 14y ago

I had many similar run-ins with immigration when I worked for Microsoft in the Redmond area (brown guy with a beard, likes to travel the world [sometimes taking trips as short as one weekend]). I've missed more than my share of flights (at one time my name was in the do-not-fly list because it partially matched the name of someone they wanted). Final straw came when one time I was returning from an international trip with my x-wife and kids when the immigration officer decided she didn't qualify to accompany me (we were married at the time). "No big deal, she'll just fly back to Canada" (we're Canadians). We were told she couldn't do that, she had to be deported to the country she came from. "But sir, we just had a single entry visa and cannot re-enter". "That's not my problem, the law is the law. You need to be deported back to countryX". "But sir, we have no ties to countryX. We dont have visa to countryX. We have a Canadian passport, if you dont want to admit us then let us just turn around and go to Canada". "Oh y'all can come in, but she can't". So I ask for a supervisor and he refused (I later learned he wasn't allowed to do that). Had us sit there for many hours with cranky kids after a transatlantic flight and then said: "You can take her now (take her??) but I'll hold on to her passport. She can come before the judge in 30 days with the document and collect her passport or she'll be deported to countryX". I had to unnecessarily waste time and money hiring a lawyer to figure out what the heck went wrong. She showed up 30 days later with our lawyer and the judge couldn't figure out why she was there. Gave us the passport. My x-wife dropped me home, told me to pack up and drove up to Toronto the same day. Even though I was about to get my green card (everything including labour cert was done) I told my employer to halt the process and moved back. For next few years I continued to work for US companies but remotely from Canada and pulled in close to $1 million in salary and stocks over the years that IRS wasn't able to tax at all. Canadian economy (not the American economy) benefited from my well over average spending over these years. I can wrap my mind around "your name is similar to xyz we are looking for [even though xyz was a different ethnicity with a different age, height and everything]. But for me this made me realize how vulnerable non-citizens are when it comes to US immigration and border patrol. To this day I have no idea what ticked that guy off to single us out like that but I decided I did not want to live in a country where I had such little rights. I am well educated, make a lot of charitable contributions and spend a lot of time volunteering in the local community. Everything the US used to benefit from but now Canada does.

jacquesm 14y ago

As long as you feel the benefits outweigh the downsides the only person you can complain to is yourself. You're still going there aren't you? I've had an episode quite comparable to this one and it was the last time I visited the US. I don't bitch about it, I don't begrudge the border guards their jobs or attitude (I assume they get a lot of shit heaped on them every day, not an excuse for a non-professional attitude but I'm sure that it eventually wears you down). I simply took my few-hundred-K per year benefit for the US elsewhere, their loss. Don't like US immigration? Good, don't emigrate to the US. Once enough people do this that it starts to affect the US GDP I'm sure there will be some change. As long as everybody accepts it this will continue or it will even get worse. I had a pretty lucrative offer about two years ago to become involved in a company. The catch: the work had to be done in the United States. No thanks... But call me when the TSA is abandoned and the border guards are no longer treating immigrants like shit. You know, the way it used to be before everybody went crazy. And on an off-topic and non-related note, additional conditions would be that Guantanamo is closed, the US ceases its drone program and the CIA gets thoroughly reamed for their 'renditions' program, including full exposure of all parties that were involved domestically and abroad. Until then the US will have to do without me, I'm quite sure they don't care one bit.

rdtsc 14y ago
> I don't bitch about it, I don't begrudge the border guards their jobs or attitude Is it because of lack of time? It seems like those are general problems and highlighting them in some form might help improve the situation. Sometimes it just takes a model story "An investor is turned away by power tripping and unprofessional immigration officer" or something like that. Maybe it won't be the story but one of thousands out there.
- jacquesm 14y ago
  I really don't think it is my problem to solve. There is no upside to me from writing that. Such blog posts you can find by the thousands, and yet nothing changes. When Obama first became president I had some hope that things would this time change for the better. But he's as much a chip off the old block as the guys before him. Let's just say that I'm disappointed in how the US has squandered its goodwill and potential over the last decade and a bit but it's entirely theirs to squander. China and India are the entities that stand to gain the most from this and in another few decades you'll learn just how much was lost. The US is still #1 in exporting its IP (and is trying hard to get proxy laws enacted the world over by using the WTO/WIPO/Worldbank triumvirate as a means of strong-arming the unwilling), they've outsourced an irresponsibly large portion of their manufacturing capability and they're in debt at a level that can only be described as reckless. This will go on for quite a while but it won't go on forever, if the US does not learn to play nice and responsibly with others then in the longer term this will take care of itself. Look at what's left of the former superpower known as the UK to see how fast you can fall. My writing or not writing a blog post is not going to make one shred of a difference in this respect, these wheels are moving and have an inertia of their own. Stopping them or reversing their direction will have to be done from within rather than without. When I quit going to the United States I essentially gave up, thinking that within my lifetime things will not be getting any better.

ryan 14y ago

If you have a green card you can avoid this by signing up for Global Entry[1]. Then you can avoid customs lines and just swipe your card at the kiosk - enter the country without ever talking to anyone. As an extra benefit the kiosk is always empty so you are through in minutes... hmm maybe I shouldn't be spreading the word about this :) [1] http://www.globalentry.gov/ http://www.globalentry.gov/

onetwothreefour 14y ago
Serious question: can you be non-white and get one of these?
- surfmike 14y ago
  Uh, yes. A (non-white) friend of mine has it. The program also allows South Korean and Dutch citizens to enroll.
- Samuel_Michon 14y ago
  "Global Entry is also available to citizens of the Netherlands who are enrolled Privium, Canadian NEXUS members and Korean SES members. Global Entry is also available to citizens of Mexico." [1] Mexicans and Koreans tend not to be caucasian, so at least some non-whites can get one of these. Not sure whether you would want one, though. It sounds pretty intrusive. "Travelers must be pre-approved for the Global Entry program. All applicants undergo a rigorous background check and interview before enrollment." [2] Also, the system relies on a fingerprint scanner. Since I have no fingerprints (due to medication), I would receive a big ole 'X' on my receipt every time. "If the kiosk receipt has an “X” printed on it, then you must report to a CBP officer. Please report to the nearest staffed CBP passport control station. You do not have to get back in line. The CBP officer at the passport control booth will review your documents, determine the reason the “X” was printed on the receipt and either release you from there or refer you to “secondary” for additional processing. The “X” can mean many different things: random inspection; you have items to declare; you have duty to pay; you have agriculture products that need to be examined; your membership may need review; your fingerprints may not have matched, the system may have trouble completing the transaction; you may have timed out on one of the screens, or other issues. " [1] http://www.globalentry.gov/faq.html http://www.globalentry.gov/faq.html [2] http://www.globalentry.gov/about.html http://www.globalentry.gov/about.html

photorized 14y ago

As someone who went though lengthy (10+ years) immigration process, from student visa to work visa to Green Card to Citizenship, with extensive travel in between - there is nothing particularly unreasonable about the experience described. OK, so he was delayed for a few hours, due to some error or inconsistency in the USCIS database... There's no reason to freak out. And the condescending remarks about the officer not knowing the difference between "web developer" and "software developer" were unnecessary.

deleted 14y ago
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- meej 14y ago
  The footer at seldo.com refers to Laurie as 'he'.
  - jacquesm 14y ago
    You're right!
- seldo 14y ago
  I promise I'm male, Jacques :-)
  - jacquesm 14y ago
    Hehe, yes, my bad :) Apologies!

Permit 14y ago

>They keep taking breaks to crack off-color jokes about each other’s sex lives, and moan about how hard they’re having to work tonight. The jokes might be uncalled for, but you just told us they were under-staffed and had hundreds of extra people to process. I can see why they'd be upset. Especially when absolutely zero of the hundreds of people they talk to in a day are happy to see them. I get the impression you've never worked in the service industry or in retail. The immense fuckup that is United States immigration is not the fault of its lowest level employees.

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mscarborough 14y ago
One of the first rules of service industry is that you don't complain about your job in front of the customers. I haven't worked retail but have done plenty of years in restaurants. I'm not sure how you can use "you've never worked in the service industry" as some kind of trump card, as this kind of behavior could easily get you fired from any half-decent service industry position.
- tolmasky 14y ago
  That's in a private company. Here, for all practical purposes, there is no incentive for things to get better. There is no one to complain to since the "customers" here are completely antagonized and have no power, imagine on top of all this complaining! There really isn't anyone to be held accountable, period. And no, "voting" is not the way these things get fixed. if it was, the DMV would have stopped being miserable ages ago: 1. As mentioned above, the people most affected can't vote. 2. Even if they could, it's not clear at all how to use your vote to affect change. Which candidate exactly represents better service at government agencies? 3. Even if you knew, you get effectively four federal representative choices that could affect this (president, 2 senators, and 1 house representative). In those 4 choices you must weigh all your grievances. How high on the list is immigration staffing going to be? The reality is that our system is not set up to deal with this kind of particular issue well. There's no good gradual feedback loop. Things have to get really bad, beyond where it's clear exactly what caused the problems, to the point where huge sweeping changes get made, probably over zealous and too far in the opposite direction then.

ajg1977 14y ago

Pointless, wasteful bureaucracy I think few people would consider border controls to be any of these things. You were flagged somehow and that sucks, but if you don't like the immigration procedures of the US you are free to either a) live elsewhere or b) try to take action to change it (we are a democracy after all). On the other hand, venting on a blog isn't going to do anything but irk people who wish they were fortunate enough to hold a US green card, or come back to haunt you if this happens again and some cranky overworked agent google's you. FWIW I'm a former, now naturalized, US green card holder and this happened to me twice in six years. It sucks, but I considered it a very small price to pay for being able to freely travel and work (or not work!) in this country.

natrius 14y ago
"Venting on a blog" is most certainly considered action in a democracy. That's basically what the Federalist Papers were.
- ajg1977 14y ago
  Aye, they were just some guys blowing out their frustrations. Or not.

DrSbaitso 14y ago

I'm a Canadian citizen and get this type of treatment all the time. Every time I enter the US, which is about once a month or so, they send me to a back room for secondary screening. The reason? Their system thinks I overstayed my visa once back in 1995. What actually happened was my family took a road trip to New England, and nobody bothered to check our passports on the way out, so there was no departure record. So for the last 18 years, they've sent me back for questioning every single time, wasting countless hours of both my time and their time. They always ask me if I worked illegally in the States in 1995 and I just tell them, "No, I was nine years old." When I ask them if they can remove the flag on my account, they say it's impossible because only the government department that created the flag can remove it, and that department no longer exists.

opinali 14y ago
"they say it's impossible because only the government department that created the flag can remove it, and that department no longer exists" -- omg, real-world Kafkian anecdote...
- _pferreir_ 14y ago
  I think Kafka foresaw all of this. The man was a Genius.
3825 14y ago
you needed a visa in 1995 to come to the US? Why? Could you not get a waiver? o.O
- DrSbaitso 14y ago
  It was before I became a Canadian citizen, but yeah, it would have been on the Visa Waiver Program. So technically they think I overstayed my visa waiver.
kafkaesque 14y ago
I'm a Canadian citizen. I live in the States. Without getting into too much detail, I pretty much go around feeling paranoid. When I think about it logically, I really have absolutely no reason to be this way. I sometimes ask myself why I'm here and when the day I finally leave will come, if it ever comes.

surfmike 14y ago

It's embarrassing how poorly people are treated when entering the US. We should put pressure on the government to improve that, but also pragmatically if we want to keep attracting talented people from around the world we really need to change this. For the time being, I'd highly recommend to the poster to enter into Global Entry (people with PR are eligible: http://www.globalentry.gov/eligibility.html http://www.globalentry.gov/eligibility.html)

smsm42 14y ago
Second that. All you need is your papers, short interview in a closest major airport and you don't have to do this passport-fingerprint-photo stuff anymore.

trimbo 14y ago

This story is true the world over. A friend got deported from India the other day for a mistake they (as in the Indian government) made on his visa.

rjzzleep 14y ago

welcome to how germany treats their own citizen

sourishkrout 14y ago
BS

Mvandenbergh 14y ago

There is nothing unique to the US about this in my experience. There is literally one part of the government that deals (by definition) with people who cannot vote and do not have elected representatives. If you want to know what it's like dealing with government agents in highly undemocratic countries, it's precisely this. Except it's every day and it's in your own country.

smsm42 14y ago

Let's look at the incentives. The picture here is not pretty. There's a big incentive to squeeze budgets, of course, anybody who watches US politics knows you can't just get any money you want, especially when there's 2 dozen another 3-letter agencies competing for the same. There's some incentive to serve citizens better - since once in the country, the citizen can call his congressmen or his local paper and raise hell if he was mistreated, and if bureaucratic middle-management hates something it is being featured in bad press and asked unpleasant question by his superiors. But when it comes to visitors, there's pretty much zero incentive to treat them better. I'm not saying that immediately leads to bad treatment - I am a non-citizen, I crossed US border more than a dozen times last few years and always was treated with courtesy and respect, which I assign to the good nature of the people that worked there. But there always are bad apples, and there's very little that can keep those in check. If the immigration officer mistakenly denies entry or costs a person 5 hours of their life, there are no consequences, ever. So these things are bound to happen, unless some kind of incentive to become better will be found.

seldo 14y ago
One of those incentives could be if US citizens decided to complain about the immigration system -- the point of the post is to attempt to marginally contribute towards that happening.
- jakejake 14y ago
  As sad as it may be I don't think the average US citizen is concerned about a 5-hour delay for non-citizens at the border. The ordinary Joe is likely to be OK with 200 people being delayed if that results in a few people being deported and 1 person being hauled off to jail (which is pretty much what the OP said happened). I have a feeling the "average" consensus would be that it was worth in in order to keep those 4 people out. I'm not saying I agree with this whatsoever - I'm just saying my gut tells me this mentality is likely to get you more votes if you are running for office in a border state. The average citizen is not thinking about the relatively small number of skilled IT workers and entrepreneurs entering the country. They are thinking about all of the unskilled labor that is coming in and "taking their jobs" as some people perceive. That, plus I'm sure there is an aspect of "doesn't affect me - I have my own problems to worry about".

zobzu 14y ago

I entered quite a few times under visa so far and my experience has been more than fine (in fact, it's even been pleasant). Hopefully, it'll never get to what you've had. It happened a couple of times that the officer wasn't sure if I was doing what I said I was, for whatever reason, and they generally just asked a follow up question like "do you have an access card for this company and can I see it?" which resolved the matter every time. Didn't realize it was so close to "wait in the horror room for hours".

jzwinck 14y ago
Ironically, it is poor security practice to print names on access cards. But it is fairly common.

dkokelley 14y ago

I would not want to be a non-citizen in America. I love my country, but I agree with the general sentiment that we have things very wrong when it comes to treatment of non-citizens. I believe that much of it stems from fears about 9/11. The Bill of Rights does lots to protect US citizens from an agressive/repressive government. The spirit of the law is that there are basic human rights that the government can't remove without due process. Unfortunately those "human" rights in practice only barely apply to US citizens.

philwelch 14y ago
Perhaps when entering the country, and there is a risk of deportation, and the difficulty of immigrating legally puts far too many people on unsafe footing due to the constant risk of being reported, but on a basic, everyday level you have the same rights. If you get pulled over on the road, the cop can't search your car without a warrant, whether you're a US citizen or just a tourist.
- dkokelley 14y ago
  This is true, but I would argue that it's only true because of the assumption that random driver being pulled over is a citizen (or rather that you can't ask a citizen if he or she is a citizen. This was part of the big deal with Arizona's new laws a year or two ago). When writing my post, I was considering the "unlimited detainment", and lack of due process for non-citizens in too many special cases.

cunac 14y ago

I am Canadian citizen and for two years I was traveling every second week to US on TN visa. In all that time I got 1 "bad" experience from US side and 2 from Canadian side. (it wasn't that bad just longer questioning with 'trick' questions) Question which confused me a most entering Canada was "How long you plan to stay ?" , WTF , I have Canadian passport ? It took me a moment not to say "Not your damn business." and just play nice.... But in general crossing border is 99% no issue

tmktmk 14y ago

This is the biggest non-problem ever: 1) Did the author get in? Yes 2) Did customs do their job and scrutinize the person's paperwork? Yes 3) Was the person held for an inordinately long time? No -- 3 hours is not a "long time." If you can't deal with the fact that you just flew (potentially) halfway across the world in an airplane 4) Was the author unduly molested or given harsh treatment, perhaps by being denied food, water, medication, or otherwise harassed? No -- the author points out that there was a water fountain and snack machines, and the author was not strip searched, nor was he otherwise harassed/degraded. Sitting in a waiting room while your paperwork clears is "not a big deal." Please stop blowing things out of proportion, and criticizing the US for no reason. I've immigrated to and lived in 3 different countries, and BY FAR the procedure described here is not difficult or tedious. If you can't deal with a a 3 hour wait, how can you deal with anything? Patience is a virtue. BTW -- I was a paying awe.sm customer -- I just cancelled my account due to this overblown blog posting. Enjoy.

y1426i 14y ago

This is not an immigration issue. There is no place for common sense in government matters. Some day computers will take over the decision making and we will have a joyous experience coming in or happily avoid this country because the decision will be known.

tlear 14y ago

Was coming back from NYC (vacation over Christmas) and got the typical BS bully treatment by the security guy, I made a decision there, I will not go on vacation to US ever again.

tinbad 14y ago

As a non-US citizen, I've had similar experiences where I was taken apart and asked some more questions by border patrol. However none of those experiences, although very similar to yours, came over as unnecessary harassment. I don't quiet understand why you would be 'terrified' crossing the border if you have all your shit together, which it seems you have. The people "whose educational attainments have qualified them to sit behind a desk stamping passports" were simply doing their job and from what you described they did it without causing more inconvenience for you than necessary. Like some others commented, if you don't like to abide by the rules of your new country of residence, nobody is forcing you to be there. Oh, and downplaying other people's intellectual abilities does come across quiet snobbish :)

ta201301 14y ago

This is precisely the sort of nonsense that made me decide to leave my job a few years ago. I used to work for <household name Internet technology company>. After some re-structuring I would have had to travel to the US a lot more often, or possibly even move to the US. For me it wasn't really worth it. The dehumanizing experience of subjecting myself to dangerously stupid, underpaid, over-empowered, assholes on a bi-weekly basis made the decision easy. While I do love California, and the Bay Area in particular, it is still inside the US. And I do not enjoy travelling to the US. To get to the US you have to go through the twilight zone that is immigration and customs. Not to mention the TSA. I can remember travelling to germany as a kid during the Baader-Meinhof terrorist era. I can remember that I felt it was somewhat unpleasant being pointed at by germans with sub-machine guns. But you know what: they were not even half as frightening as the sort of personel you encounter when travelling to, from or within the US. Because with the germans you at least have the sense that the people holding the gungs are not the lowest life-forms of their society. But I am not complaining. Taking this choice meant that I had to figure out what to do. And now, some years later, over 100 people have jobs because I don't want to travel to the US ever again.

aneth4 14y ago

Immigration processes millions of people each day. There are going to be mistakes. This sounds like they got a false positive, investigated, and released him. That's how the process is supposed to work. Making this into some massive anti-American rant says more about the author than America. This experience sounds unpleasant, but like it was handled professionally. I've spent an hour being searched by customs. I don't know why - perhaps because I was returning from India and hadn't shaved in a month. It was inconvenient, but also the job of customs. This did not bother me. I fly domestically and internationally at least 20 times a year. I get caught up briefly in all sorts of different ways all over the world. It's part of travel, and it's really not that bad. This is how nations protect their borders and enforce their laws, because not everyone is a saint like you. All you idiots saying you won't work in or travel to the US because of the TSA searches - give me a break. EVERY country in the world I have ever been to has nearly identical search procedures as the TSA and most countries have stringent immigration checks. Many asking far more probing questions than American immigration, including Netherlands, Israel, and Britain. I was nearly denied entry to Britain because I didn't know the address of a friend who I was staying with. Sorry, I'm tired of all this false outrage about minor f-ups with the TSA and DHS. These organizations have some major policy and procedural problems, but a few hours one time while immigration officials do their job of making sure you don't have false documents is not among them. If you don't like it, go somewhere else where a $20 bribe instead of an objective investigation gets you admitted - which is most countries in the world.

nottrobin 14y ago
When was the last time you had to wait in one crowded room for 3 hours without being allowed to use your phone, and without a seat? The last time I was in a situation anywhere close to this was when I accompanied my girlfriend to get her visa renewed in London. We had to wait for about 5 hours in a fairly crowded hot room with pretty uncomfortable seats. But we had each other's company and while there was a sign saying we weren't allowed to use electronic devices, most people seemed to be ignoring it, so it wasn't so bad. But still worse than anything I ever have to experience in my normal travel as a white British man.
- 14y ago

thawt 14y ago

I haven't seen anyone say it, but I can tell you that the experience of entering the US as a US citizen is only marginally better. Leaving/entering the US is something I avoid at all costs. Sad but true.

blago 14y ago

I am a US citizen and I had a similar experience. About a year ago I spent a few months in Asia while working remotely for my US employer. Reentering the states (after an almost 24 hour trip), the border agent really didn't like the fact and went out of his way to find a hole in my "story" - "So you did work in Asia?", "But your company did not send you there?" This dragged on for a while. This was the climax of the confrontation: - "Have you been in trouble with law enforcement before?" - "No, but you make it sound like I am now. Am I?" - "We'll see" - "I am a law abiding citizen and I've been giving honest answers to all of you questions. What can I possibly be afraid of?" Ever since, I DREAD reentering the states. I have dual citizenship, work flexibility, and friends and family all over the place. I find myself spending less and less time in the US.

_pferreir_ 14y ago

I know what you mean. The bureaucratic establishment allows people in low ranking public jobs to have a disproportionate amount of power over pretty much anyone. 9/11 seems to have made things worse for pretty much everyone. Governments went paranoid and chose the easy way: delegating extra authority on people that were not prepared to exert it. But border guards tend to be dumb and/or rude pretty much everywhere, so, don't take it too seriously.

madaxe 14y ago

I have a simple solution for not dealing with US immigration's bullshit. Too many trips marred by days spent in featureless rooms waiting for Godot, a full-time employee of your border agency. Anyway - simple solution - don't go to America. Don't work with Americans. Europe and Asia are big markets.

stickdick 14y ago

There's somebody on the US no-fly list that has the exact same name as me. I can't check-in online with any airline, and checking in at the desk anywhere in the US results in some sort of warning on their computer, and a quick call to somebody to come out from the back and check it out. Unfortunately I have to fly at least once a month. A quick look over the passport shows it's obviously not me (though I don't have any details of the real bad guy). Must happen to quite a few because I have a fairly bland, common British name.

UnoriginalGuy 14y ago
Didn't they try to resolve this by issuing redress numbers or whatever? When I enter my passport on most airline's web-sites it gives me the option to add a redress number, which in theory should allow them to identify you as NOT the individual on the no-fly list. See this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_Fly_List#DHS_Traveler_Redress_Inquiry_Program http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_Fly_List#DHS_Traveler_Redres...
- stickdick 14y ago
  Interesting. I've never really looked into it, I just get over the fact I have to check-in at the airport, and over time it's become less embarrassing since I just expect to see the assistants face drop in panic, and be pulled to the side. It's never been mentioned to me either. I'm not actually a US citizen, so perhaps it doesn't apply. I'll look into it further, thanks for the advice.

deleted 14y ago

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gadders 14y ago

I know everyone hates on the US Immigration people, but as a fairly regular traveller to the US (normally at least twice a year, mixture of business and pleasure), I've never had a bad experience. The guards I've dealt with have never been less than professional, and some have gone out of their way to make smalltalk ("You have nice handwriting" (?), "Your birthday is the same as mine.") etc. I even got let back through immigration from baggage control as I had a bad stomach and really badly needed to use the toilet, No guns were drawn on me. Of course, it probably helps that I'm white and British, but I thought I would offer up at least one counterpoint.

alexkus 14y ago

My first two attempts at entry to the US on my H1-B were simple, maybe one question and in I go. It was the third entry that they asked more questions and asked to see more paperwork (which I did have with me). I guess it's to catch people who obtain visa/green-cards and then pass them off to others or their situation changes (and they no longer qualify for the visa). I'd also guess that frequent visitors to the US go through at least one of these increased scrutiny experiences every few years. I don't think it's unreasonable given the amount of problems they have with people trying to sneak into the country; I know that I don't have a right to be there so I expect some hassle. The only other problem I had was coming back into the US after I'd gone to Canada for a friend's wedding (all on a VWP); so UK->US, then two weeks later US->Canada->US, and I wasn't due to fly back to the UK for another 2 weeks or so. I was nowhere near the 90 days of my original VWP, but they might have thought I was taking a quick trip to Canada in order to reset my 90 days with a new VWP entry. It just took a few extra minutes explanation. Other than that I've done lots of trips to the US (20 on the Visa Waiver Program, 5 with my H1-B and another 10 or so since I moved back to the UK) with no problems at all.

nottrobin 14y ago

Thanks so much for sharing this. I think treatment of immigrants by border controls is shocking, and the biggest problem is how little attention / voice the problem gets. Please continue to write about your experiences.

flavmartins 14y ago

I completely agree with your feelings here. I, too, am a permanent resident with a green card. I live in fear of immigration deciding that "something isn't in order" and then my life is completely upside down. I've grown up in the US, my wife is a US citizen, my kids are all US citizens, yet dad always has that crazy worry in the back of his mind. AND...for those of you who brush this off. Please contact my wife and ask her feelings about immigration. When I was going through my green card process she just about went nuts at the immigration office and destroyed a few of the workers. Eventually she had to stop coming to the appointments and just wished me luck. She is more frustrated with the process than I am. The problem is that we're talking about immigrants here. No one is going to stand up for them. Citizens never have to deal with the these issues, and most immigrants, once they've gone through the process, never want to look back on it again, let alone try to fight it.

donohoe 14y ago

This is why I choose citizenship. I have kids so I cannot risk some guy having a bad day at the border ruining my life.