3 ms·

No. Price discrimination and locking hardware are not illegal.

by Aurornis 5d ago

smilespray 5d ago
You'd be well advised to remember there is a world beyond your visible horizon.
- Aurornis 5d ago
  I prefer to stay grounded in the reality of how the world works when responding to questions about legalities.
  - smilespray 5d ago
    What you said isn't true for quite a few countries.
    - iso1631 5d ago
      That's quite possible, but could you name a couple where locking a raspberry pi type of computer would be illegal?
      - smilespray 5d ago
        EU Right to Repair Directive specifically prohibits manufacturers from using HW/SW locks or firmware limits to block part replacement.
        Aurornis 5d ago
        The part can be replaced with the same part to repair the item. This is not locked.
        smilespray 5d ago
        Part locking against unoriginal parts is prohibited in the EU.
        asdfasgasdgasdg 5d ago
        "Each chip is programmed with the timing settings and storage size settings of just the RAM we ship it with, and doesn't know how to boot with anything else." I don't know if you could call that "blocking." I mean you could call it that but I don't know if that's legally what it would be.
DoctorOetker 5d ago
lets try proof by exhaustion: in those jurisdictions where either price discrimination or locking hardware are not illegal, it is typically perfectly legal to reverse engineer for compatibility purposes. So nothing prevents such resellers from upping their game and learning a thing or two about link training and general SDRAM bringup. Once they have acquired the knowledge legally in such jurisdictions the product just flows in the other jurisdictions anyway. Courts upheld the monopolistic position of microsoft etc. for decades, but respect has no finality, "re" + "spect" to review, so later such companies were fined for their decades long transgressions. But during those decades it may appear legal to the average consumer. Inaction is not permission.
- Grombobulous 5d ago
  All of this is pretty irrelevant from a legal perspective. Reverse engineering is legal, but manufacturers don’t have to help you figure out how to reverse engineer their products and they’re allowed to design their products in a way that makes it difficult. There’s generally not a lot of jurisdictions out there that make stuff like hardware lockdowns of this nature illegal, especially for companies that are not in regulated industries or are not monopoly/oligopoly players.
  - DoctorOetker 5d ago
    > All of this is pretty irrelevant from a legal perspective. > Reverse engineering is legal, but manufacturers don’t have to help you figure out how to reverse engineer their products and they’re allowed to design their products in a way that makes it difficult. I'm not asking for help to figure this out, and of course RP is allowed to shoot themselves in any foot they like. Consider Europe where such reverse engineering is perfectly legal for compatibility purposes. Let's consider an idealized scenario, there were no security bugs or other issues with the product that would justify reverse engineering RP blobs in public. When they do something like this, they are GIVING CARTE BLANCHE to public reverse engineering efforts to attain compatibility with other RAM chips. Why would you provide legal cover in some jurisdictions for others in publicly reverse engineering your own products by introducing artificial incompatibility? Also from a consumer perspective, RP tries to place itself front and center in maker communties, emphasizing modularity, not just hobbyists, also companies build and design end products using RP units. All of these companies must now be wondering where RP Foundations exact red line resides: can we resell an RP board in a Kiosk we made? or only for as long as it doesn't compete with RP's future Kiosk modules? Today its the RAM upgrade, but tomorrow RP modules may refuse to boot some popular Kiosk hardware intentionally. What prevents RP Foundation from eventually "not copying" end-application hardware like a Kiosk design from their customers, and then enforcing compatibility only with RP Kiosks? So not only are they providing legal cover for public reverse engineering efforts, they are scaring part of their customer base. > There’s generally not a lot of jurisdictions out there that make stuff like hardware lockdowns of this nature illegal, especially for companies that are not in regulated industries or are not monopoly/oligopoly players. That's a very shallow interpretation of law, looking only at what RP is or isn't allowed to do. There's generally not a lot of jurisdictions out there that make stuff like reverse engineering for compatibility or security applications illegal either.
Hizonner 5d ago
Lots of things aren't illegal... unless you do them for illegal purposes. I doubt antitrust would get anywhere on this RAM issue, but antitrust law is not defined in terms of either of those categories.

No. Price discrimination and locking hardware are not illegal.

smilespray 5d ago

You'd be well advised to remember there is a world beyond your visible horizon.

Aurornis 5d ago
I prefer to stay grounded in the reality of how the world works when responding to questions about legalities.
- smilespray 5d ago
  What you said isn't true for quite a few countries.
  - iso1631 5d ago
    That's quite possible, but could you name a couple where locking a raspberry pi type of computer would be illegal?
    - smilespray 5d ago
      EU Right to Repair Directive specifically prohibits manufacturers from using HW/SW locks or firmware limits to block part replacement.
      - Aurornis 5d ago
        The part can be replaced with the same part to repair the item. This is not locked.
        smilespray 5d ago
        Part locking against unoriginal parts is prohibited in the EU.
        asdfasgasdgasdg 5d ago
        "Each chip is programmed with the timing settings and storage size settings of just the RAM we ship it with, and doesn't know how to boot with anything else." I don't know if you could call that "blocking." I mean you could call it that but I don't know if that's legally what it would be.

DoctorOetker 5d ago

lets try proof by exhaustion: in those jurisdictions where either price discrimination or locking hardware are not illegal, it is typically perfectly legal to reverse engineer for compatibility purposes. So nothing prevents such resellers from upping their game and learning a thing or two about link training and general SDRAM bringup. Once they have acquired the knowledge legally in such jurisdictions the product just flows in the other jurisdictions anyway. Courts upheld the monopolistic position of microsoft etc. for decades, but respect has no finality, "re" + "spect" to review, so later such companies were fined for their decades long transgressions. But during those decades it may appear legal to the average consumer. Inaction is not permission.

Grombobulous 5d ago
All of this is pretty irrelevant from a legal perspective. Reverse engineering is legal, but manufacturers don’t have to help you figure out how to reverse engineer their products and they’re allowed to design their products in a way that makes it difficult. There’s generally not a lot of jurisdictions out there that make stuff like hardware lockdowns of this nature illegal, especially for companies that are not in regulated industries or are not monopoly/oligopoly players.
- DoctorOetker 5d ago
  > All of this is pretty irrelevant from a legal perspective. > Reverse engineering is legal, but manufacturers don’t have to help you figure out how to reverse engineer their products and they’re allowed to design their products in a way that makes it difficult. I'm not asking for help to figure this out, and of course RP is allowed to shoot themselves in any foot they like. Consider Europe where such reverse engineering is perfectly legal for compatibility purposes. Let's consider an idealized scenario, there were no security bugs or other issues with the product that would justify reverse engineering RP blobs in public. When they do something like this, they are GIVING CARTE BLANCHE to public reverse engineering efforts to attain compatibility with other RAM chips. Why would you provide legal cover in some jurisdictions for others in publicly reverse engineering your own products by introducing artificial incompatibility? Also from a consumer perspective, RP tries to place itself front and center in maker communties, emphasizing modularity, not just hobbyists, also companies build and design end products using RP units. All of these companies must now be wondering where RP Foundations exact red line resides: can we resell an RP board in a Kiosk we made? or only for as long as it doesn't compete with RP's future Kiosk modules? Today its the RAM upgrade, but tomorrow RP modules may refuse to boot some popular Kiosk hardware intentionally. What prevents RP Foundation from eventually "not copying" end-application hardware like a Kiosk design from their customers, and then enforcing compatibility only with RP Kiosks? So not only are they providing legal cover for public reverse engineering efforts, they are scaring part of their customer base. > There’s generally not a lot of jurisdictions out there that make stuff like hardware lockdowns of this nature illegal, especially for companies that are not in regulated industries or are not monopoly/oligopoly players. That's a very shallow interpretation of law, looking only at what RP is or isn't allowed to do. There's generally not a lot of jurisdictions out there that make stuff like reverse engineering for compatibility or security applications illegal either.

Hizonner 5d ago

Lots of things aren't illegal... unless you do them for illegal purposes. I doubt antitrust would get anywhere on this RAM issue, but antitrust law is not defined in terms of either of those categories.