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In the line, I recommend „The Egg” by Andy Weir https://www.galactanet.com/oneoff/theegg_mod.html https://www.galactanet.com/oneoff/theegg_mod.html

by stared 6d ago

amelius 6d ago
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h6fcK_fRYaI https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h6fcK_fRYaI (animated version)
itsalwaysgood 6d ago
That's such a great read. Asimov's 'The Last Question' is another good one that's in line: https://users.ece.cmu.edu/~gamvrosi/thelastq.html https://users.ece.cmu.edu/~gamvrosi/thelastq.html
- sph 6d ago
  I love both of these, and I wonder why would I need mainstream religion when stories like these are deep enough to provide answers, hope and meaning for those who seek it. If the message resonates with you, why not adopt it? Nobody could ever prove they’re just fantasy. Sorry for the digression, I’m just an atheist with a love for philosophy and spirituality.
  - AnimalMuppet 6d ago
    If you're going to be content with "nobody could ever prove it wrong", what do you have against mainstream religion? Fantasy is fantasy. Either it's true to what's really there, or it isn't.
    - Tadpole9181 5d ago
      Unlike the other religions, "The Egg" doesn't impose morals or pretend to be an infallible historical record, prophet of things to come, or explainer of the universe. It's just a cute philosophical story that exists entirely within the imagination to make us feel better and less lost. That is to say, it just lacks the same "baggage" of the others.
    - sph 5d ago
      I’m not against, I’m just saying one can find answers to the deep questions of life without having to buy into religion wholesale. No one ever told me this was even an option, especially due to the toxic discourse around atheism and Christianity by Americans that have poisoned the conversation for everybody else (quelle surprise…)
      - itsalwaysgood 5d ago
        Conviction influences behavior. You can believe whatever you want: and we believe things based on experience, and personal knowledge. And we 'stick' to those beliefs for certain reasons. There is a friction to being pushed into believing something else: read up on Plato's 'Allegory of the Cave' for an idea of what I'm talking about. Your own personal beliefs can become a religion if you start to shape your life around it: that is, you start thinking of, and living by, principles or guidelines that affect your behavior. The stories offer up core ideas or beliefs, but no principles or guidelines to live by. If you find the story interesting, and don't form rigid guidelines or rules to live by: then perhaps you've just been influenced in a positive way, a way that resonates with you. The problem with conviction, is when people try to force it onto others. It's something that has to be grown from within.
  - deleted 5d ago
    [deleted]
ndarray 6d ago
Engage in the thought experiment that you are/were/will be every human for a sec. Is self-harm morally ok? Many would say yes. So "the egg" already gives those people a pass to hurt everyone else in this world because it's a form of self-harm. Great. Now for those who explicitly don't want to self-harm. "The egg" implies that your rebirths happen serially in meta-time. You live this life, then the next, then another,... those lives may overlap on earth, but in egg-time, they don't. This means you can statistically expect you've already lived 50% of them. There's no guarantee of this, but the distribution is normal, not uniform [1] (similar reasoning found in doomsday argument [2]). 50%, give or take, humans out there you've already been. Everything you do to them, you do to your PAST self. You're not only absolved of moral accountability, but also of the physical consequences of treating them horribly. So while "the egg" tries to do the opposite, it really seems to justify psycho maxxing. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Central_limit_theorem https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Central_limit_theorem [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doomsday_argument https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doomsday_argument
- curtisblaine 6d ago
  I don't think you're "absolved" if you don't know you're harming, in fact, yourself. Guilt is all about intention.
  - ndarray 6d ago
    Assuming the premise of the short story is true, of course. Otherwise, what's the point. I can't simultaneously grant the premise and pretend that I didn't just grant it, by denying my knowledge of the rebirth mechanism.
- pstuart 6d ago
  > Is self-harm morally ok? Is self-harm ok? What could be considered good about it?
  - ndarray 6d ago
    I probably should have phrased it "do you have a moral right to self-harm"? The starting point is usually that you're allowed to do anything you want, total freedom, and then we blacklist everything we deem immoral. You don't have an explicit license to breathe either, it's just not blacklisted, not by your gov, nor morally. As far as I can tell, many people refuse to morally blacklist self-harm, because there's no victim other than the perpetrator. This is doubly true in the egg scenario where you are also everyone who suffers any secondary harm from the self-harm, like also being every saddened family member. To make a long story short, I'm not asking about goodness of anything here, "ok" just means "granted."
cesarsk 6d ago
Amazing. So, I am most of you commenting here, and the author of this incredible short story. Thank [myself] for sharing!
ralfd 6d ago
I go against the grain and say that I dislike the egg. It is spiritually stupid and heretic and morally fake enlightened.
- JKCalhoun 6d ago
  I don't know. I just read it now—my thought was that it was an interesting idea (thankfully now overly long). "“Seriously? You’re asking me for the meaning of life? Isn’t that a little stereotypical?”" I think the word he was looking for was clichéd.

In the line, I recommend „The Egg” by Andy Weir https://www.galactanet.com/oneoff/theegg_mod.html https://www.galactanet.com/oneoff/theegg_mod.html

by stared 6d ago

In the line, I recommend „The Egg” by Andy Weir https://www.galactanet.com/oneoff/theegg_mod.html https://www.galactanet.com/oneoff/theegg_mod.html

amelius 6d ago

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h6fcK_fRYaI https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h6fcK_fRYaI (animated version)

itsalwaysgood 6d ago

That's such a great read. Asimov's 'The Last Question' is another good one that's in line: https://users.ece.cmu.edu/~gamvrosi/thelastq.html https://users.ece.cmu.edu/~gamvrosi/thelastq.html

sph 6d ago
I love both of these, and I wonder why would I need mainstream religion when stories like these are deep enough to provide answers, hope and meaning for those who seek it. If the message resonates with you, why not adopt it? Nobody could ever prove they’re just fantasy. Sorry for the digression, I’m just an atheist with a love for philosophy and spirituality.
- AnimalMuppet 6d ago
  If you're going to be content with "nobody could ever prove it wrong", what do you have against mainstream religion? Fantasy is fantasy. Either it's true to what's really there, or it isn't.
  - Tadpole9181 5d ago
    Unlike the other religions, "The Egg" doesn't impose morals or pretend to be an infallible historical record, prophet of things to come, or explainer of the universe. It's just a cute philosophical story that exists entirely within the imagination to make us feel better and less lost. That is to say, it just lacks the same "baggage" of the others.
  - sph 5d ago
    I’m not against, I’m just saying one can find answers to the deep questions of life without having to buy into religion wholesale. No one ever told me this was even an option, especially due to the toxic discourse around atheism and Christianity by Americans that have poisoned the conversation for everybody else (quelle surprise…)
    - itsalwaysgood 5d ago
      Conviction influences behavior. You can believe whatever you want: and we believe things based on experience, and personal knowledge. And we 'stick' to those beliefs for certain reasons. There is a friction to being pushed into believing something else: read up on Plato's 'Allegory of the Cave' for an idea of what I'm talking about. Your own personal beliefs can become a religion if you start to shape your life around it: that is, you start thinking of, and living by, principles or guidelines that affect your behavior. The stories offer up core ideas or beliefs, but no principles or guidelines to live by. If you find the story interesting, and don't form rigid guidelines or rules to live by: then perhaps you've just been influenced in a positive way, a way that resonates with you. The problem with conviction, is when people try to force it onto others. It's something that has to be grown from within.
- deleted 5d ago
  [deleted]

ndarray 6d ago

Engage in the thought experiment that you are/were/will be every human for a sec. Is self-harm morally ok? Many would say yes. So "the egg" already gives those people a pass to hurt everyone else in this world because it's a form of self-harm. Great. Now for those who explicitly don't want to self-harm. "The egg" implies that your rebirths happen serially in meta-time. You live this life, then the next, then another,... those lives may overlap on earth, but in egg-time, they don't. This means you can statistically expect you've already lived 50% of them. There's no guarantee of this, but the distribution is normal, not uniform [1] (similar reasoning found in doomsday argument [2]). 50%, give or take, humans out there you've already been. Everything you do to them, you do to your PAST self. You're not only absolved of moral accountability, but also of the physical consequences of treating them horribly. So while "the egg" tries to do the opposite, it really seems to justify psycho maxxing. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Central_limit_theorem https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Central_limit_theorem [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doomsday_argument https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doomsday_argument

curtisblaine 6d ago
I don't think you're "absolved" if you don't know you're harming, in fact, yourself. Guilt is all about intention.
- ndarray 6d ago
  Assuming the premise of the short story is true, of course. Otherwise, what's the point. I can't simultaneously grant the premise and pretend that I didn't just grant it, by denying my knowledge of the rebirth mechanism.
pstuart 6d ago
> Is self-harm morally ok? Is self-harm ok? What could be considered good about it?
- ndarray 6d ago
  I probably should have phrased it "do you have a moral right to self-harm"? The starting point is usually that you're allowed to do anything you want, total freedom, and then we blacklist everything we deem immoral. You don't have an explicit license to breathe either, it's just not blacklisted, not by your gov, nor morally. As far as I can tell, many people refuse to morally blacklist self-harm, because there's no victim other than the perpetrator. This is doubly true in the egg scenario where you are also everyone who suffers any secondary harm from the self-harm, like also being every saddened family member. To make a long story short, I'm not asking about goodness of anything here, "ok" just means "granted."

cesarsk 6d ago

Amazing. So, I am most of you commenting here, and the author of this incredible short story. Thank [myself] for sharing!

ralfd 6d ago

I go against the grain and say that I dislike the egg. It is spiritually stupid and heretic and morally fake enlightened.

JKCalhoun 6d ago
I don't know. I just read it now—my thought was that it was an interesting idea (thankfully now overly long). "“Seriously? You’re asking me for the meaning of life? Isn’t that a little stereotypical?”" I think the word he was looking for was clichéd.