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Stop Generalizing About Europe
- deleted 14y ago[deleted]
- conradfr 14y agoIf you think of it, pop culture shared amongst Europeans have a greater chance to be American than European.
- VeejayRampay 14y agoAs a French dude, I've always dreamt of a more unified European culture. As in producing movies, TV shows with European money, catering to a European audience. England already produces some more-than-decent TV shows as it is. We should also make English the official language, that would help us all move forward.
- wolfgke 14y ago> We should also make English the official language, that would help us all move forward. We should better create an entirely new artificial official language so that nobody feels discriminated.
- conradfr 14y agohttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Esperanto http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Esperanto ?
- VeejayRampay 14y agoNah. English is an easy language, taught in a vast majority of high schools in Europe, the Northerners already all speak it perfectly, it has Latin roots and Germanic roots, it's fairly neutral, used by the US and Canada and is so far the de facto language of business. We should invest in English. I've wanted English to be a mandatory second language after your native one in all of Europe for a while. Also creating languages never works, see Esperanto and all those ridiculous lab-synthetized languages that pretend to solve all the problems and all end up showing the very same bias it was trying to avoid in the first place (Esperanto for example is WAY easier for a romance-family speaker than for say a dude from Poland).
- eli_gottlieb 14y agoPlease no. The world's languages are already being killed-off by English a little too quickly.
- klausjensen 14y agoGood thing. Inability to communicate in a common language is a huge barrier for development, peace and understanding global issues.
- jarek-foksa 14y agoIf I were to design a new international language I would take the vocabulary and grammar from Basic English [1] and modernize the writting system to be fully phonetic. Still, I'm afraid that such Newspeak-like language could be implemented only in some totalitarian dictatorship, so I hope that it won't happen any time soon... [1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Basic_English http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Basic_English
- riffraff 14y agothey do them some times, think eurovision, or the (IIRC) french-german production of the borgias' story. And I must have a seen a thousand things co-produced by Canal+. Anyway, I really miss jeux sans frontieres :(
- cllns 14y agoI was curious so here are some population figures (from wikipedia) Eurozone: 332,839,084 EU: 503,492,041 Europe: 739,165,030 So 45% of Europeans (66% of EU citizens) are in the Eurozone.
- personlurking 14y agoHere's a great lil' venn diagram of all the European bodies http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/84/Supranational_European_Bodies.png http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/84/Supranati...
- ColinWright 14y agoOne of my bugbears, but to be completely accurate this is an Euler Diagram, not a Venn Diagram. Technically, a Venn Diagram has to have all possible intersections represented. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Euler_diagram http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Euler_diagram http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Venn_diagram http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Venn_diagram http://blog.stevemould.com/venn-vs-euler-diagrams/ http://blog.stevemould.com/venn-vs-euler-diagrams/
- jonascopenhagen 14y agoFor those who don't know, the Eurozone is basically those 17 EU member states who use the Euro as their currency. The remaining 10 members of the EU use their own national currency.
- rmc 14y agoFun fact: There are countries outside the EU that use the Euro, but Eurozone (or Euro area) only includes EU. (FTR: Kosovo and Montenegro use the Euro, aswell as some microstates like Monaco and Vatican City)
- VeejayRampay 14y agoCan't stress enough that the 740 million figures includes Russia and Kazakhstan in the bunch. Two countries that are more Asian than they are European.
- Vivtek 14y agoHmm. Perhaps you could stop generalizing about people generalizing about Europe. Varsavsky has lived and built businesses in Madrid since 1995, so I think that his contrasts between the European market and the American market from the entrepreneur's point of view are really pretty trustworthy. Your points about European diversity are quite valid, although I think they're beside the point. But your ad hominem "Oh my, another American is butting his nose into Europe" framing is less than persuasive.
- SeniorKlem 14y agoVivtek, you are projecting. Stop being a dick.
- jacquesm 14y ago> Stop being a dick. Indeed.
- SeniorKlem 14y agoYou're projecting.
- Xylakant 14y agoHave you followed the HN discussion about Varsavskys post? http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4968589 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4968589 He takes his experience from Spain and UK and glosses it all over europe with some hearsay in between. Some of his statements may apply to spain and the UK, but pretty much all of them don't apply in germany - even the ones about germany. So it's not an ad hominem attack when the author says "another one that falls in the trap."
- Vivtek 14y agoNo, actually, I hadn't; I'm nominally on vacation. What I'm about to say is intellectually sloppy. But Varsavsky's facts are not terribly important. His point about German startups was true at one time, and is no longer true, but his larger point about legal requirements for the workplace being strict in Europe and essentially non-existent in America is true. His contrast of personal liability for entrepreneurs in Europe with the essential absence of any such liability in America is true. His post is not directed towards Europeans. It is directed towards American entrepreneurs who are looking at Europe - and could come to Europe with vastly incorrect assumptions about what it means to start and run a business here. Along the way, sure, he makes some pretty generalized points about business in Europe that may be less than accurate. The "no new valuable businesses" point is a little off and to my mind not even the point. But what he is actually saying is that, should you want to start a startup in Europe as an American, here are some things you should know in advance, and here are some reasons you might want to do it despite a risk profile that is entirely different. The diversity of Europe doesn't even matter in this context, except as a reason Americans might like to live here. And OP's point that the income diversity between Scandinavia and Russia is really beside the point. The point is that the European middle class is healthier than the American middle class, and if you can steer around the problem that they speak fifty different languages, you've actually got a bigger market for consumer goods and services here than in the States - and that's a weird and unusual thought that I, personally, found quite inspiring.
- mbell 14y agoI could make an almost identical argument about the usage of terms like "Americans". The states and even cities themselves are all very different.
- neumann_alfred 14y agoAnd you'd be right. But you'd also have admit that Americans tend to do that to themselves. "The American Way" and whatnot; less bright people even saying "Unamerican" as if that was a thing. Those aren't labels others gave you, Americans proudly confess them. And then there is this ever-present flag and/or red-white-blue. From far away those similiarities seem to kinda outweigh the differences, it's just real hard to look past that, it being everywhere and all the time.
- mbell 14y agoHonestly this post is a perfect example. You've classified "Americans" as one group when your really talking about "American Nationalists". It sounds like your attributing nationalist propaganda you see on Fox News to all Americans. This is also a great example of state/city variation. Living in Boston for 7 years I can probably count the number of times I've heard someone talking about "The American Way" or using the term "Unamerican" on one hand. One week long trip to Texas and you hear it a dozen times or more.
- neumann_alfred 14y agoI didn't say all Americans are that way, I just said some (rather loud, rather constant) Americans generalize themselves; while I don't quite get that vibe from Europe. Movies, presidential speeches, whatnot... it's really not just some nationalists, you export that a lot. That doesn't say anything about those who have no use for that stuff and see through it, I'm just claiming you have a lot of people who don't. I cannot think of any country that is so developed and so into nationalism, at least appearing so from the outside.
- abduhl 14y ago
- fahadkhan 14y agoI think you are pedantic about other people's semantics and not your own. E.G. when you say American, do you mean US citizens or people from the two continents of America? I think you mean the former. Just like they most likely mean Western Europe.
- pixie_ 14y agoI think it's pedantic to confuse 'americans' with everyone from north/south america.
- jordinl 14y agoSo when Americans say American do they mean US Citizen or someone from North/South America? ...
- rmah 14y agoThey mean residents of the USA. Note that there are two nations that are "United States of _____" in the western hemisphere.
- elomarns 14y agoAs a brazilian, I completely understand this feeling. A lot of people think Buenos Aires is Brazil's capital, when it's actually Argentina's capital. And small parts of our culture are taken as national main interest, as carnival. But it's ok to me. In the end, there's no much to do besides correcting people. It's not worth to be upset with this behaviour. People will always generalize and will always state things about places they don't even know with total confidence.
- jonascopenhagen 14y agoWhat worries me is that some American entrepreneurs may be deterred from starting businesses in Europe based on untrue generalizations, whether positive or negative. There are huge possibilities in Europe, but in order to plan your business strategy you need facts.
- elomarns 14y agoI agree. What I was trying to say is that it doesn't worth to be upset with any misunderstanding about the place you born, wherever it is. Instead, you can correct people, so they have a more realistic view of your country. But I also believe that any entrepreneur considering to start a company in Europe must research deeply, in a way that he find facts, and not only opinions from people from Internet.
- peteridah 14y agoI am an African currently living in Europe. When you think that my home country ( just 1 out of 54 in Africa ) is made up of over 500 tribes which were really separate and distinct nations pre-colonializiation by the British, you come to realize that any generalization made of a continent is rarely (if ever) a representation of the observed set.
- JohnFromBuffalo 14y agoMy 2c, is stop trying to be one nation then. The EU zone is something of a fiasco and its really killing the entire zone with countries like Turkey and Greece. Don't blame us .. blame your governing body for making it difficult to operate in Europe.
- arethuza 14y agoTurkey isn't in the EU.
- kmfrk 14y agoThey've been struggling to become a part of the EU, though. Could be what he meant.
- erebrus 14y agoSeemed more that he was giving an example of how Turkey was a country that was pulling the Eurozone down from within... illustrating the depth of his understanding of the geography and economy of the region...
- jballanc 14y agoUh, what's the problem with Turkey?
- JohnFromBuffalo 14y agoIt's not Merica and you guys don't have NASCAR.
- saosebastiao 14y agoThere is a small town very near to where I grew up where everybody speaks Portuguese. The mayor and his councilmen speak Portuguese in their chambers. There are Festas and bullfights, of which I have attended many, and even played Baritone in an Azorian-tradition marching band. The local grocery stores have food with labels in Portuguese (occasionally Spanish as a second language). The most popular sports team in the entire city is Benfica, and the most popular TV channel is RTP. This town is called Gustine, and it is located in California. If you are going to throw a fit about generalizations of Europe, at least have the courtesy to do the same with your generalizations of the US. After having lived in multiple corners of this country, I can honestly tell you that our majority language and our TV stations are the lowest common denominators of our culture...not defining aspects of it.
- jonascopenhagen 14y agoI addressed all that in my post. I never claimed that Americans were one homogenous group (and by the way, I've lived in California, too). I claimed that US, despite being a melting pot, is an actual nation (which is not the case with the EU) and that there are a least some common denominators - one of them being the language which is spoken natively by more than 80% of the population.
- saosebastiao 14y agoSo how exactly is it imprudent or offensive for Americans to point out some of the common denominators of Europe?
- Xylakant 14y agoNot at all - as long as you're at least generally right. If you're grossly misrepresenting things that apply to one country as "common denominator of Europe" it's offensive. It's offensive to pretend all germans wear lederhosen or probably a couple of americans were annoyed if I'd say that all americans wear cowboy boots and hats, have a winchester on their back and a colt on their belt and speak the worst texan dialect ever.
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- crazygringo 14y agoThis post feels awfully pedantic. While it may not be clear to non-Americans, when Americans talk about "Europe", they're generally talking about Western Europe, not Eastern, and are excluding the UK too. They almost certainly aren't including Russia. (Just like when Americans talk about Asia, they aren't usually thinking of India.) Of course, that's geographically inaccurate -- but it's what we usually mean. The Europe that Americans refer to does mostly use the Euro, have better-distributed wealth, plenty of consumers, and ambivalent feelings toward entrepreneurs in most of its parts. Just because Europe is made up of lots of countries, and there are lots of different ways to define it, doesn't mean you can't make statements about it. Perhaps the main point of the post was, be aware that Eastern Europe exists?
- kmfrk 14y agoJust like "America" is a synecdoche for "The United States". :) It depends on how the words are used; "Africa" to describe an area larger than a lot of continents combined, when you only mean a few countries - or just one! - is borderline offensive, though.
- bane 14y agoThank you! I've been grasping to try and find a good word for this bit of semantics. Synecdoche is it!
- antiterra 14y agoAmerica is the name of the country. It's The United States of America, like the Federal Republic of Germany or The People's Republic of China, etc.
- jjio 14y agoAmerica/Americas is the entire land mass containing all North American countries and South American countries. It's just also slang for "The United States of America".
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- paulhauggis 14y agoThen stop comparing things like healthcare in a country of less than 10 million to one with 300 million+
- grego 14y agoAs a European myself, I think it is fine to generalize* about Europe. Many points in Varsavsky's blog post were correct and it raised awareness of some things to consider. Sure, it had its omissions and errors, but also remember it was a blog post, not an article in a peer reviewed journal. Reading the article + the ensuing hacker news discussion one is already much better informed. What is naive is to expect some blog post to give you an overarching view of a very complex subject. Kind of like reading a wikipedia article something and expecting to be expert on the subject matter after that. *Making generalizations is a wonderful property of the human brain. Without that we'd all be lost in the fractal complexity of everyday detail.
- jonascopenhagen 14y ago> Making generalizations is a wonderful property of the human brain. Without that we'd all be lost in the fractal complexity of everyday detail. Sure - the problem is when the generalizations are so broad as to become complete falsehoods. If I went to Upper East Side in New York and concluded that Americans are extremely wealthy persons who live in townhouses, I would be incorrect.
- grego 14y agoIn my opinion Varsavsky's blog post was ok. Sure it mostly covered Spain and France, but that's where he's worked at. It conveyed actual experience from one person's perspective. Some responsibility always lies with the reader: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Critical_reading http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Critical_reading
- jonascopenhagen 14y agoThat's like saying that it's alright if I write a blog post about how all Americans drive Chevrolets, and then it's up to the reader to figure out the truth by applying critical reading. While the reader should apply critical reading, the writer should certainly make sure his facts are straight.
- kmfrk 14y agoA good and bad article all in one. It's good, because it addresses some common misconceptions. It's bad, because it implies that you can't generalize about anything nor anyone. Obviously, there are - broadly - common traits in Europe. The point is fine, to the extent that the broader generalizations you make, the more people will be described incorrectly - and you cite some great numbers to emphasize that. The post makes it sound as if there is some scientific constant for maximum population size you can generalize about.
- arctic 14y agoBroadly common traits such as breathing and eating.
- PoliticsJunkie 14y agoCreated an account just to state this: tech people please don't go into discussing politics / economics. Brits want to exit EU because of wars in the past? This is ridiculous! What about the real reasons: 1. Britain has 70% of its laws created by the EU by burocrats who were never voted into the office and can't be voted out of the office: Barroso (President of the European Commission) and Von Rumpoy (whatever his name - never elected President of the UE). 70% of British laws are created by unelected foreigners who definitely don't share their anglo-saxon heritage, focusing more on Germany-centered economic views. Germany has always been goods producer. UK has always been a trading nation. You say forcing UK to obey Teutonian laws will prevent future wars and upheaval and I'm telling you it may as well cause them (look at another country not consistent with German economic policies: Greece) Not to mention other things: UK is banned from entering into trade treaties with Canada, Australia, India, and the US - their historical partners - EU has to do it for them! They have to accept EU imposed anti-British customs with India, Australia and Canada because by the EU law they have to trade openly with EU and mustn't with Anglo-Saxon world. And economically - this is killing them. EU exports into UK much more than UK into EU. Why bother? It's not like they will loose business once outside of the block. And other things - newly passed EU laws that will basically kill London's stock exchange and investment banks to keep German tax payers happy. THIS and not history of wars is the cause of 2 in 3 Britons being in favor of EU exit. It's just bad business for them and their economy and nobody in the EU seem to care. As long as the Chancellor is happy.
- lispm 14y ago> Germany has always been goods producer. UK has always been a trading nation Yeah, why has the UK then stopped trading? Btw., I live in a German Hansestadt, which for centuries has been trading with all the known world. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hanseatic_League http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hanseatic_League The UK can't trade with the US? Haha, what a joke. Let's face it: the UK has focused on its financial 'industry' and has sold products of questionable quality.
- justincormack 14y agoIndeed the UK had a couple of Hanseatic ports, in London https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steelyard https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steelyard and King's Lynn. I don't understand people who think a trading nation can survive outside a free trade area either.
- nhebb 14y agoI think a lot of us need to admit that the author is right. I, for one, do generalize about Europe. I think of social democracies with high taxes. I think of arcane rules and regulations to start and run a business. And most of all, I limit the term "Europe" to include about 20 of the 50 European countries. I will never think of Russia as a European country. If I entered a contest and won a vacation to "Europe" - and the destination turned out to be Albania - I'd be thinking "Wat?!? That's not Europe." From the outside, the term "Europe" is a confusing morass of distinctions. There's Europe, the Eurozone, the EU. The UN also has a geoscheme that is different than all three of those. Hell, half of Americans probably don't know the difference between England, Great Britain, and the United Kingdom.
- alexchamberlain 14y agoMost British people would struggle to tell you the difference between Great Britain and the UK.
- aes256 14y agoThen again, I think a fair number of Brits would state Northern Ireland (the difference between Great Britain and the United Kingdom) is part of Great Britain
- alexchamberlain 14y agoYou've also got the Channel Islands, and the Isles of Mann and Wight to contend with. Then there's the fact that one is a political union and one a union under the monarch... something like that anyway.
- lucaspiller 14y agoThis video explains all: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rNu8XDBSn10 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rNu8XDBSn10
- arethuza 14y ago
- pretoriusB 14y agoWell, I'm a European myself, but the corrections sounds a little on the pedantic side: >"Most of Europe has the euro as a common currency" -- Only 17 of Europe's 50 countries use the Euro. Yes. Only some of the LARGEST countries, for a total of 332 million people. Not to mention that he did say "most". >"Europe is great for an American tech entrepreneur because wealth is better distributed" The difference between the Scandinavian countries and, say, Russia is enourmous when it comes to wealth distribution. That's one of the reasons most people don't include Russia when they talk about Europe. Not to mention that it can even refer only to the EU countries. >"More consumers can buy your products and services" Certainly depends on whether you're selling to Swiss or Romanians. The same point keeps repeated. It's as if someone talked about investing in the US, and someone felt obliged to blog about the differences between Illinois and New York and rural Idaho, Mississippi, Alabama and South Dakota. Yes, we got it already. It's not like someone will go to invest blindly to the _geographic region_ that is Europe. He will most likely go to what is called Western Europe, or the EU.
- klapinat0r 14y ago> It's as if someone talked about investing in the US, and someone felt obliged to blog about the differences between Illinois and New York and rural Idaho, Mississippi, Alabama and South Dakota. This, exactly, seems to be the point OP is missing.
- erebrus 14y agoIt's all about scale. That is the point that almost everyone else is missing! The differences between New York and rural Idaho, in all, are smaller than the differences between Greece and Norway. They are however comparable to the differences between North and Southern Italy. Scale
- pretoriusB 14y ago>It's all about scale. That is the point that almost everyone else is missing! The differences between New York and rural Idaho, in all, are smaller than the differences between Greece and Norway. You'd be surprised. Rural Idaho and New York have very little in common in buying preferences, business opportunities, employment opportunities, cost of living, potential market and such. And New York and parts of Mississippi or South Dakota have even less. Would you base an startup on Holly Ridge or Indianola? Heck, there are parts of South Dakota (the Indian reservations) that have a life expectancy of 48 years -- a third world like number.
- Kim_Bruning 14y agoCan we agree on the colloquial: "American"=USAian , "European"=EUian ? (And specify otherwise if otherwise?)
- RivieraKid 14y agoFrom the outside, Europe may seem more united than it is. I think that the difference between two randomly selected European states is the same as the difference between a random European state and the US. Also I disagree, that there is a need for a stronger union. Free trade union yes, but other than that, every state should be sovereign.
- digitalWestie 14y agoI agree with everything said here - maybe apart from the points about demographics. We know Varsavsky was referring to Western Europe. In any case, I don't think it's such a bad thing to ignore differences for a moment and do a bit of generalizing. We end up making preconceptions and assumptions about what will and won't work in other countries. Cultural and linguistic barriers are almost being used as an excuse. This is a massive mistake we are making in Europe. There are plenty of products and/or ideas which all of Europe has had an appetite for. Naturally, appetite for ideas/services may exist in one country more than the others. That's where you'll find your early adopters but it's not the bigger picture!
- vanhalt 14y agoAmerica is a continent. No matter how much the people from the US call themselves "Americans" You are generalizing when you say "Americans". Thanks
- rmah 14y agoAmerica is NOT a continent. North America and South America are the two continents. Further, there are more than one United States. Ever consider how the people of the United States of Mexico feel when you ignore them like that?
- Kynlyn 14y agoReverse "Europeans" with "Americans" and this post is equally good advice for Europeans who say "Oh Americans are...". Stereotypes aren't just an American thing. They exist worldwide.
- adventured 14y agoThe comedy to this is the extreme generalizing that goes on globally when talking about America / Americans. We're all cowboy surfer rednecks that love our guns and religion, are all broke with maxed out credit cards and overweight with a nasty case of diabetes.
- erebrus 14y agoYes, that's a silly generalization, but it's not comparable to the one mentioned in the OP. If you want to compare thinking of all Americans as rednecks, you can compare it to thinking of of all french as sweet talking wine lovers, spaniards as lazy and always sleeping the siesta, or germans as rigid uptight and rude; and so on an so forth.
- Xylakant 14y agoWe are rigid uptight and rude. Call me, I'll prove that to you.
- eli_gottlieb 14y agoWell, actually, 2/3 of Americans are overweight and 75% are indebted in some fashion (though that could be "good debt"). And Americans have one of the most disturbing attitudes towards religion I've ever seen. American seculars turn entirely away from God while fundamentalists also turn entirely away from God... in the other direction. So you get a country where service employees working on Christmas is considered totally normal, but fundamentalists crow on and on about the disrespect done to Christianity by deigning to acknowledge Hanukah and Kwanzaa. Which is ironic, because prior to Kwanzaa being invented from whole cloth and Hanukah morphing into Jewsmas, it really was solely and only the Christmas season. Damned capitalist pigs ;-) (yes, I'm originally American). Oh, and there are more guns than people in America, but those are mostly concentrated in rural states where guns are easier to obtain legally. The population of America has only recently tipped over from being mostly rural/suburban to mostly urban/suburban.
- jusben1369 14y agoOk. Then what? Try and imagine an article written for US based entrepreneurs that didn't generalize about Europe to some degree? It would be awfully confusing (if written at all) So better to gently chide some of the more extreme generalizations than worry about stopping the practise entirely.
- zalew 14y agowhat about calling countries by their name? let's say, when you're talking about Germany, you say "Germany" instead of "Europe"?
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- jballanc 14y agoI'd wager $100 that 99% of HN readers can't even name the fastest growing economy in Europe...
- carbocation 14y agoI'd wager that they also can't name the fastest growing economy in the United States. What of it?
- erebrus 14y agoI can name the fastest growing national economy in the USA. It's easy...there is only one nation. In Europe, there are 50... how hard to get can this be?
- carbocation 14y agoThat's trivial, and obviously not the point of this offshoot thread. While the federal government regulates interstate commerce, each state is free to set up its own tax structure, create different incentives for businesses to open up shop, etc. And each state has its own set of natural resources and hazards. The question of which US state has the fastest growing economy is equally interesting as the GP's question about European economies.
- jballanc 14y agoI don't see how they are at all related. For one thing, I can pretty much guarantee you that the difference in GDP growth between the fastest growing European economy and the slowest is leaps and bounds larger than the same difference between states. For another thing, for many businesses in the US, it's fairly trivial to relocate should things go south. Not so for moving between countries in Europe.
- moultano 14y agoI don't think you are correct. There are some deeply poor regions of the US that have been that way for 100 years. http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_U.S._states_by_poverty_rate http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_U.S._states_by_povert... http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2008/10/081031102640.htm http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2008/10/081031102640.ht... Between states it ranges from 5% to 20%. Between countries in Europe it ranges from 10% to 20%. I'm sure the figures aren't directly comparable, but it at least suggests that there's a similar level of economic diversity.
- erebrus 14y agoIt's amazing how many from the USA insist that the inner diversity in the USA is comparable to the one in Europe. I've heard this many times, namely here in HN. It is not comparable. PERIOD. Even if the poster goes a bit to the extreme of bringing Russia in to the conversation, even inside the EU, there is still no comparison on how how diverse Europe is (e.g. Portugal to Norway, Greece to France, Spain to Germany) compared to the USA. Some countries, like Austria and Germany do have some similarities, but - to the untrained eye - Canada and the USA will seem relatively similar also, when compared to Mexico!
- artimaeis 14y agoPerhaps the diversity of the USA is not the extreme of Europe, but I would be quick to point out that the regional differences in the US are quite notable even to an outside observer. There are 5 major regions of the US: Northeast, Southeast, Midwest, Southwest, and West. Each of these regions has noted differences in: dialect, culture, food, general behavior, economy, and quality of life. Now regardless of US or Europe we have to factor in the population density of a location. It's no secret that urban culture is very different from rural culture be it in Oregon or in France. Granted: we mostly speak the same language, we all share a common currency, and we all answer to the same federal body which represents us. There is more diversity in Europe, that much I am sure of. But there is no problem with a comparison of the two.
- unconed 14y agoIf you focus on 'diversity', you miss the bigger picture, because of course every place is unique. The US has for example far more pronounced extremes of urban vs rural (which many too forget). The real issue is distance, and how Europeans and Americans in general have vastly different concepts of what's far. If you're in the US or Canada, driving for 10 hours means you're going to visit your aunt. Doing the same anywhere in Europe means you're likely 2 countries over, and it becomes a 'huge trip' in people's heads. Heck, I know several people who have driven more than halfway across Canada, in Europe no-one who drove e.g. from Paris to Istanbul. And while the European market is supposedly unified, in practice there are significant variations in pricing and availability as soon as you cross a border, simply because that's something few people do. And of course the language difference means most local media is opaque to outsiders. So I would say that the US is definitely diverse, but it's a gradual diversity, that transitions smoothly from ultra-urban to no-one-for-miles rural. It works on very large distances, and is mediated by a shared media, politics and language. European countries meanwhile are much more homogenous on the inside, but there are a lot of forces keeping each one unique.
- jpeg_hero 14y agoWow, there is so much euro-hurt over that Varsavsky post that people are resorting to random nit-picking on the definition of Europe.
- tubbo 14y agoEvery time you tell Americans to stop doing something, you are generalizing on a much larger level than if I were to say something like "Most Europeans are white-skinned". ;)
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- dimitar 14y agoStereotypes and generalizations are so common because they are useful, not because Americans are ignorant. Not just because no one cannot remember every detail about everything - generalizations are models, simplifications of reality, which help you make an informant decision confidently. For example: are you willing to adhere to workplace regulations? If its a low priority maybe you should skip Europe. I'm from an EU country that in my opinion was 150 degrees (180-30) from what Martin Varsavsky described, but I still appreciated his article. I know it meant Western Europe and I learned that US entrepreneurs are a lot different. Generally.
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- TeMPOraL 14y agoAnd for the similar reasons I think it would be in the interest of fruitful discussion to try and not generalize India and China into... well, India and China, respectively. Yes, they are both single countries, but every one of them has a population greater than America and Europe combined. At this scale I'd expect that those countries have cultural substructures corresponding to european nation-states in size and diversity.
- anigbrowl 14y agoI'm European and think this article is bunk. Hardly anyone (in western Europe at least) considers Russia to be a part of Europe.
- jeltz 14y agoI am Swedish and I believe most Swedes consider Russia to be part of Europe. Making generalizations about Europe or even Western Europe (something which did not exist before the cold war) is dangerous.
- gudukassa 14y agoI am from Africa - a continent of more than a billion people speaking around two thousand languages. In Africa, you find one of the first Christian nations in the word as well as communities practicing ancient forms of traditional belief systems. Climate ranges from scorching heat and arid desert to tropical rain forests. You find the very wealthy elite monopolizing all the resources as well as mass poverty. I could go on. To make matters worse, borders between countries are artificially drawn by colonialists. That results in frequent conflicts and makes effective governance or business extremely difficult. Yet, almost everyone refers to Africa as one homogeneous (dark) unit. Schadenfreude from your African fellow.
- _pferreir_ 14y agoWell, it's not uncommon to hear the expression "Sub-saharan Africa". That's better than nothing. At least in Europe, we usually differentiate between Mediterranean/Maghreb/Islamic Africa and "everything below". Actually, I believe most southern Europeans refer to "Africa" in the loosest sense of the word as being the sub-Saharan part, since the northern countries are seen as Mediterranean and are just too close to home to be thought of as in another continent. Likewise, no-one will refer to the Near East as being "Asia".
- corwinstephen 14y agoTrue, you're generalizing when you say "Europeans are...", but you would also be generalizing if you said "Americans are...", "San Franciscans are...", "Rich people are...", "Programmers are...", and so on and so forth for any group of people you can think of. Talking about a group of people is generalizing, and generalizing is a necessary part of life, because despite the fact that doing so may cause untrue things to be said about certain people, it is also true that generalizations are true about more people than they are untrue about. That's why they're called generalizations. People say "vc's in the bay area understand startups." Is this universally true? Of course not. But am I ignorant for saying so? Not in the slightest, because in more cases than not, it is true. So yeah, the guy's statements might not be holistically accurate, but who's are? He's offering guidlines, and I believe that's fair. Disclosure: I have not yet had the pleasure of visiting Europe. It is possible that my opinions might change after experiencing life there firsthand.
- polskibus 14y agoI was taught at my (European-based) business negotiation course that such generalizations as the ones mentioned in the article, are a basic American negotiation strategy to undermine European confidence. I was told that Americans are aware (most of the time) that their behaviour is received as ignorant and rude. After reading the article, I'm back to wondering whether my business negotiation professor was just prejudiced or is there a grain of truth in what he told me?
- roboneal 14y agoTo sum up the comments: Stop generalizing about my generalizing.
- readme 14y agoI'm going to take this a step further and just say "Stop Generalizing" (Wait... was that a generalization?)
- jacoblyles 14y agoIsn't it true that the Western European economies are high-tax, high-regulation economies with high degrees of risk-aversion (both public and private) compared to America? Where does that stereotype fail? From what I know, it's hard to fire underperformers in most of Western Europe. Many traditional industries are protected (like French book stores). Taxes are high. Anti-market sentiment is strong. It's not a place where I would want to start a company to do what has never been done before. I'd like to be wrong. I hear Europe is a nice place to live, otherwise. But it is called the "old world" for a reason.
- laut 14y agoIn Monaco there's no income tax. And it's not the only country in Europe without income tax. In Estonia the marginal tax rate is 21%. In the US it's 35%+ ? > From what I know, it's hard to fire underperformers in most of Western Europe. That's typical in places like France, Spain, Italy. But as my fellow Dane tries to say in his article: don't generalize and think it's the same everywhere :)
- charlescearl 14y agoWhat's a harder climb -- getting Americans to stop generalizing about Europe or Africa? Wait -- if they could get to the point of realizing that Africa is a continent and not a country, that in itself would be a giant leap forward.
- aufreak3 14y agoI would love to write a similar post titled "Americans and Europeans, stop generalizing about India". As much as I cringe every time I hear someone do an "Indian accent" (it differs vastly from state to state), drawing simple boundaries is the way we make sense of the world around us. As experience grows, we learn to make finer distinctions and the texture of life around us grows from monochrome to technicolour. Please feel free to draw these simple boundaries around anything of importance to you as long as those generalizations are adequate for your life and those around you. Don't however think that your generalizations are absolutely real. They're real for you and may not be for others. This is what is ultimately so beautiful about the world.
- robinwauters 14y agoMartin is from Argentina, not American, and he has built and invested in businesses in both Europe and the US. He knows what he's talking about.
- bitteralmond 14y agoThis guy seriously doesn't understand that "Europe" to most us westerners basically means "All European countries with a coastline, down to Italy."
- vixen99 14y agoA trifle off-topic but it's interesting to read that the author believes in a 'strong European union' with 27 unelected commissioners and an unelected president following a constitution that has never been put to the peoples of the EU countries.
- brightsize 14y agoI think there's a lot of truth to this essay. As am American, I've certainly been guilty of these kinds of generalizations. To Americans (colloquially meaning U.S. citizens here), I think the phenomenon can be attributed mainly to two causes. The first is that Americans don't travel much, only a small minority hold passports. And who can travel with a meagre two contiguous weeks of holiday per year, and with real incomes of the 99% declining for the past 30 years? The second is that the political propaganda machine in the States explicitly lumps all the nations of Europe into the "un-American, thus wrong-thinking" category. You need look no further than our last presidential election for evidence of this: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-16583813 http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-16583813 . There's probably a third force at work that just occurred to me: I think that in American schools, kids are not taught anything meaningful about Europe other than perhaps a vague bit about the World Wars. Namely who was "good", and who was "evil", black & white just like modern American politics. My apartment here in Berlin has a Berlin-raised caretaker who I've had a few extended conversations with. I'm astounded by how much he knows about American history, to the point of even forming opinions (historical ones, not politico-propaganda-influenced ones as far as I can tell) on individual events such as the battle of Little Bighorn. He's in his late 40s, speaks English fluently, and knows more about American history than most Americans I've met. I'm not sure that I entirely know what to make of this, but it certainly leaves me with the impression that there's an element of learning and sheer curiosity about the world that's largely absent in the States.
- mkr-hn 14y agoThis is a byproduct of the world being so far away for so long. The distance had an impact in both directions. I ran into people from other countries making ridiculous generalizations about the US when I first stepped on to the Internet in the '90s. Now I know hundreds of people from other countries, and there's very little generalizing going on in either direction. But this is mostly people in their 20s and 30s, not people who grew up without a direct link to the world.
- mmaunder 14y agoOP: Stop generalizing about Americans.
- kafkaesque 14y agoI came to this party rather late, but here are my $0.02. I don't pretend to be a super well-traveled individual, but I have traveled a bit. I feel both Jonas Bentzen and the article he refutes are wrong to some degree, though Mr Bentzen seems to be making a less severe generalisation. What I see occurring here is a classic example of metonymy and cosmopolitan and metropolitan cities vs. perceived 'real culture'. Metonymy: A country seems to be defined by its major city or cities--to the outsider, the fewer cities represent it, the better. Cosmopolitan cities: The problem is these major cities tend to be cosmopolitan cities. Think Alpha-, Alpha, Alpha+ and Alpha++. These types of cities tend to strive towards homogeneity. I had a history prof (who leaned towards socialism) lay out and explain how, historically, the bigger a city gets, the less unique and further away from its ancestors and traditions it culturally becomes. Cultural hegemony. Metropolitan cities: Then there are 'medium-size' cities, or 'second major cities' that fight to keep some traditions and cultures from their respective countries. Some metropolitan cities strive to be more cosmopolitan, and have that sensation; I'm thinking of a few (very few) Beta-, Beta, and Beta+ cities here. During the French Revolution, there were two major schools of thought in Spain. One went like this: Bonaparte wants to modernise countries and wage war on 'tradition'; let's join the French movement and abolish our backward traditions. These people, in Spain, were called 'afrancesados' ('Frenchifieds', pro-French), pejoratively. They were found in major Spanish cities. Here is the really important part: people outside of major Spanish cities thought they were protecting the 'real' Spanish culture; they were often of humble birth, people that had given rise to what people outside of Spain thought was 'very Spanish' (flamenco, cante jondo, running of the bulls, gypsies, etc.) from a cultural perspective. They had traditions; old traditions. They were superstitious, street-smart, but they were also deceived by kings and, to use a modern term, their governments. I don't see much has changed with regard to cultural representation. The government projects/sells an image of their country to foreigners. Some people buy into it. The reality is that not only is each country vastly different, each region and city is. We should be comparing cities with cities, not countries with countries.