3 ms·

No, they’re really not. Turns out, sail-power scales sublinearly and, shocker, the wind isn’t a reliable source of power for the logistics demands of today’s s

No, they’re really not. Turns out, sail-power scales sublinearly and, shocker, the wind isn’t a reliable source of power for the logistics demands of today’s supply chains. We’re never going back to wind, but we will be de-carbonizing shipping either with ammonia combustion, fuel cells, or both.

nradov 15d ago
Longer term I think we'll also use synthetic liquid hydrocarbon fuels manufactured through the Fischer–Tropsch process. People have proposed bringing back nuclear powered merchant ships but that's a non-starter for cost and security reasons. We can keep the nuclear plants safely on land and use them to make carbon-neutral fuel.
- mschuster91 15d ago
  That is insanely inefficient however. It only makes sense for transoceanic air travel, probably supplanted by synthfuel from biomass, but in the long term we will see ships powered by batteries. Far far more efficient.
  - nradov 14d ago
    Batteries are already being used for ferries but they're too large and heavy for transoceanic merchant ships. I doubt that operators will be willing to make more frequent port calls just to recharge.
    - mschuster91 14d ago
      ... at the moment. We might find ourselves with containers full of batteries being exchanged on sea by feeder ships. Doesn't help across the real oceans, but works along coastal routes (which Asia-Europe definitely is). The more expensive oil is, the faster the transition will have to be done. Simply because at some point, even the trash that freight ships burn will be more expensive than a bunch of battery containers and an electric drivetrain.
      - citrin_ru 14d ago
        Oil will not stay expensive for a long time without some carbon tax. Even if Hormuz will remain closed for years production will rise elsewhere. The main reason production is not increasing significantly right now - investors are not sure that prices will stay at the current level for a long time (3+ years) and expect prices to fall before they’ll get enough to recoup investments. The longer prices will stay around $100 the more will be invested into new oil wells.
        mschuster91 14d ago
        > Oil will not stay expensive for a long time without some carbon tax. Which the EU already does. > Even if Hormuz will remain closed for years production will rise elsewhere. There aren't that many places outside of MENA that produce oil in reasonable quantities. European reserves are effectively at capacity, can't really build out any more. The only ones who can expand are the US but they have to ship their oil elsewhere to refine it (and in turn get refined products back), the US is only net self-sufficient but not gross self-sufficient. Even if the US were to increase shale oil/fracking... it wouldn't help the markets too much.
        citrin_ru 14d ago
        > There aren't that many places outside of MENA that produce oil in reasonable quantities AFAIK all these countries can increase production given enough investments: US Canada Guyana Venezuela (high political risk but with high oil prices the risk will be taken) Brazil Whether the US is self sufficient or not is not that important as net production and its dynamics.
        mschuster91 14d ago
        > Whether US is self sufficient or not is not that important as net production and its dynamics. Unfortunately it is. When there is no oil coming to the US any more that US refineries can handle and process into the stuff the US needs... all the reserves and production capacity the US has don't matter. The US cannot process its own oil.
rendaw 15d ago
Couldn't they use sails plus that? Are these companies advocating for just sails, or sails plus other stuff?
- Cthulhu_ 15d ago
  Sails plus the regular engines, for a % in fuel reduction that adds up at scale.
- scott_w 15d ago
  That’s exactly what they’re doing to reduce fuel usage by up to 6%.
  - orwin 15d ago
    I think it's up to 24% for rotor sails,no?
Razengan 15d ago
How about the equivalent of an space elevator turned 90°: Can we built giant conveyer belts across the ocean?
- forcedtolinux 15d ago
  transpacific zipline (don't tell musk he might start a company)
  - internet_points 15d ago
    s/start/buy ftfy
    - usrusr 15d ago
      Get rich quick scheme with the catch that you'll have to deal with Musk? Guess I'll pass
- robbomacrae 15d ago
  Ships are ~5x more efficient than trains so unlikely a good trade off. It would have to be a maglev to beat shipping.
- pholypilz 15d ago
  [flagged]
  - deleted 15d ago
    [deleted]
CorvusCrypto 15d ago
Agree that it's not going to be a binary shift. The tech does look promising for at least rotor sails, but that's an improvement which also demands use of traditional powerplants to drive the rotors ofc. Still worth investigating imo considering the shipping industry is the area of the world that still contributes highest to carbon output and is sort of an "untouchable" industry due to criticality. If cheap enough this could help while we wait for e.g. "greener" fuel or other things to develop. But yeah, to underscore further, not like shipping will look like my sailing yacht any time soon.
satvikpendem 15d ago
[flagged]
gehsty 15d ago
I think it’s clear that they are not turning back to use them exclusively, but clearly are ‘turning back’ in an additive way. Eg putting these things on ammonia powered vessel will reduce the amount of fuel needed, which is probably a net benefit.
rob74 15d ago
If you had bothered to at least skim TFA, this is addressed in the third paragraph: > The idea is not to turn modern cargo ships back into sailing vessels. Instead, these systems are designed to work alongside conventional engines, using the wind to reduce fuel consumption whenever conditions allow.
- askvictor 15d ago
  News articles to this effect have been popping up occasionally for the past 20 years at least. So the economics don't seem to stack up. At least not yet; but if oil gets a bit dearer...
  - JeremyNT 14d ago
    They really are being built and used commercially. Probably incentives play a part in this, but their numbers are slowly increasing, so it's not totally vaporware (of course we don't need new articles every ~6 month talking about how amazing this technique is) [0] [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rotor_ship#Modern_vessels https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rotor_ship#Modern_vessels
  - nomel 14d ago
    Some of these sails claim 10% fuel reduction, which is ~5% operational cost, or ~150k per trip to spend on some tubes of metal or sheets of cloth.
    - nomel 14d ago
      Sorry, typo, and unclear. I meant to say fuel is ~50% operational cost.
    - ricree 14d ago
      I've seen a few articles about Norsepower (mentioned in the top article) validating the shipboard measurement equipment meant to confirm how much is actively being saved by their sails. I haven't seen any hard numbers on what the actual savings are, but they've had at least one ship (Chinook Oldendorff) with sails since at least 2024. So hopefully the public will get some concrete numbers on how much is saved. Given the increasing number of companies that are mentioned as upcoming partners for actual installations, it might be that they've finally been able to convince shippers that wind power is viable for cost savings.
vintermann 15d ago
We're not going "back" to wind, but there are vessels with modern sails already deployed to save a couple of % fuel costs. There were 9 in 2020 and are 64 now, according to Sintef. Of course kinks are still getting ironed out, but it seems likely it will continue to grow.
defrost 15d ago
And yet: Klaveness Combination Carriers (KCC) has launched a brand-new vessel that aims to use wind technology that the company believes will not just reduce emissions, but also improve fuel efficiency on its voyages between China and Australia. Equipped with the first wind-assisted propulsion system in KCC’s fleet and a range of advanced energy efficiency technologies, MV Baltazar was officially launched at Fremantle Port this week .. According to the company, due to the ship’s trading area, size and advanced energy efficiency measures including suction sails, MV Baltazar has the lowest carbon footprint of any vessel in these trades. ~ (September 16, 2026) https://www.watoday.com.au/national/western-australia/high-seas-and-low-fuel-energy-efficient-ship-launches-in-fremantle-20260915-p60xok.html https://www.watoday.com.au/national/western-australia/high-s... > de-carbonizing shipping either with ammonia combustion, fuel cells, or both. Or methanol: Methanol is emerging as one of the most practical low-greenhouse gas (GHG) fuels for deep-sea shipping. * https://methanol.org/what-fuels-shipping https://methanol.org/what-fuels-shipping * https://www.dnv.com/maritime/publications/methanol-fuel-in-shipping-download/ https://www.dnv.com/maritime/publications/methanol-fuel-in-s... * https://www.lr.org/en/knowledge/research/fuel-for-thought/methanol/ https://www.lr.org/en/knowledge/research/fuel-for-thought/me...
- GJim 15d ago
  > methanol Currently made from crude oil in a CO2 emitting process from a finite fossil fuel resource. And yes, whilst methanol can be distilled from wood/crops (a more expensive process), this simply cannot scale, especially if humanity wishes to eat...... You do realise a large container ship is 1/4 mile long and carries north of 18,000 TEU containers; that's 9000 lorries worth. They are big.
  - defrost 15d ago
    [flagged]
    - GJim 14d ago
      > green hydrogen plants. Splitting fresh water (salt water is a non-starter) for hydrogen is a rather energy inefficient and expensive process. > People still use miles? In maritime world, yes we do; nautical and statute. > do blather on in that condescending tone. I do appear to have touched a nerve old sport.
TeMPOraL 15d ago
I think news publishing has recurring schedule for topics for filler articles, and this is just the regularly scheduled appearance of Flettner rotors. I saw the headline, and immediately knew what it is. Always the same: headline implying sail power is back, body correcting that it's about minor fuel savings, and that some shipping companies are planning to install rotors on their fleet.
- cucumber3732842 15d ago
  Somewhere in a cube farm that hasn't been updated since the 90s: "This month's analytics report indicates our college educated white collar employed left leaning traffic to our properties is down over the same month last year" <puffs vape> "Don't worry about it, I'm having AI re-write all the green tech articles from 2005-15, it'll be back by November"
- dinfinity 14d ago
  "The International Windship Association says more than 100 large merchant ships are now equipped with modern wind propulsion systems, representing more than 5 million deadweight tons of carrying capacity." It's not much, but it's more than just planned stuff. I do generally agree with your sentiment.
- jerf 14d ago
  Let me just check the schedule here... ah, yes, it looks like we should be getting "AIRSHIPS - HAS THEIR TIME FINALLY COME" swinging back around here in about 6 weeks. See you all then.

nradov 15d ago

Longer term I think we'll also use synthetic liquid hydrocarbon fuels manufactured through the Fischer–Tropsch process. People have proposed bringing back nuclear powered merchant ships but that's a non-starter for cost and security reasons. We can keep the nuclear plants safely on land and use them to make carbon-neutral fuel.

mschuster91 15d ago
That is insanely inefficient however. It only makes sense for transoceanic air travel, probably supplanted by synthfuel from biomass, but in the long term we will see ships powered by batteries. Far far more efficient.
- nradov 14d ago
  Batteries are already being used for ferries but they're too large and heavy for transoceanic merchant ships. I doubt that operators will be willing to make more frequent port calls just to recharge.
  - mschuster91 14d ago
    ... at the moment. We might find ourselves with containers full of batteries being exchanged on sea by feeder ships. Doesn't help across the real oceans, but works along coastal routes (which Asia-Europe definitely is). The more expensive oil is, the faster the transition will have to be done. Simply because at some point, even the trash that freight ships burn will be more expensive than a bunch of battery containers and an electric drivetrain.
    - citrin_ru 14d ago
      Oil will not stay expensive for a long time without some carbon tax. Even if Hormuz will remain closed for years production will rise elsewhere. The main reason production is not increasing significantly right now - investors are not sure that prices will stay at the current level for a long time (3+ years) and expect prices to fall before they’ll get enough to recoup investments. The longer prices will stay around $100 the more will be invested into new oil wells.
      - mschuster91 14d ago
        > Oil will not stay expensive for a long time without some carbon tax. Which the EU already does. > Even if Hormuz will remain closed for years production will rise elsewhere. There aren't that many places outside of MENA that produce oil in reasonable quantities. European reserves are effectively at capacity, can't really build out any more. The only ones who can expand are the US but they have to ship their oil elsewhere to refine it (and in turn get refined products back), the US is only net self-sufficient but not gross self-sufficient. Even if the US were to increase shale oil/fracking... it wouldn't help the markets too much.
        citrin_ru 14d ago
        > There aren't that many places outside of MENA that produce oil in reasonable quantities AFAIK all these countries can increase production given enough investments: US Canada Guyana Venezuela (high political risk but with high oil prices the risk will be taken) Brazil Whether the US is self sufficient or not is not that important as net production and its dynamics.
        mschuster91 14d ago
        > Whether US is self sufficient or not is not that important as net production and its dynamics. Unfortunately it is. When there is no oil coming to the US any more that US refineries can handle and process into the stuff the US needs... all the reserves and production capacity the US has don't matter. The US cannot process its own oil.

rendaw 15d ago

Couldn't they use sails plus that? Are these companies advocating for just sails, or sails plus other stuff?

Cthulhu_ 15d ago
Sails plus the regular engines, for a % in fuel reduction that adds up at scale.
scott_w 15d ago
That’s exactly what they’re doing to reduce fuel usage by up to 6%.
- orwin 15d ago
  I think it's up to 24% for rotor sails,no?

Razengan 15d ago

How about the equivalent of an space elevator turned 90°: Can we built giant conveyer belts across the ocean?

forcedtolinux 15d ago
transpacific zipline (don't tell musk he might start a company)
- internet_points 15d ago
  s/start/buy ftfy
  - usrusr 15d ago
    Get rich quick scheme with the catch that you'll have to deal with Musk? Guess I'll pass
robbomacrae 15d ago
Ships are ~5x more efficient than trains so unlikely a good trade off. It would have to be a maglev to beat shipping.
pholypilz 15d ago
[flagged]
- deleted 15d ago
  [deleted]

CorvusCrypto 15d ago

Agree that it's not going to be a binary shift. The tech does look promising for at least rotor sails, but that's an improvement which also demands use of traditional powerplants to drive the rotors ofc. Still worth investigating imo considering the shipping industry is the area of the world that still contributes highest to carbon output and is sort of an "untouchable" industry due to criticality. If cheap enough this could help while we wait for e.g. "greener" fuel or other things to develop. But yeah, to underscore further, not like shipping will look like my sailing yacht any time soon.

satvikpendem 15d ago

[flagged]

gehsty 15d ago

I think it’s clear that they are not turning back to use them exclusively, but clearly are ‘turning back’ in an additive way. Eg putting these things on ammonia powered vessel will reduce the amount of fuel needed, which is probably a net benefit.

rob74 15d ago

If you had bothered to at least skim TFA, this is addressed in the third paragraph: > The idea is not to turn modern cargo ships back into sailing vessels. Instead, these systems are designed to work alongside conventional engines, using the wind to reduce fuel consumption whenever conditions allow.

askvictor 15d ago
News articles to this effect have been popping up occasionally for the past 20 years at least. So the economics don't seem to stack up. At least not yet; but if oil gets a bit dearer...
- JeremyNT 14d ago
  They really are being built and used commercially. Probably incentives play a part in this, but their numbers are slowly increasing, so it's not totally vaporware (of course we don't need new articles every ~6 month talking about how amazing this technique is) [0] [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rotor_ship#Modern_vessels https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rotor_ship#Modern_vessels
- nomel 14d ago
  Some of these sails claim 10% fuel reduction, which is ~5% operational cost, or ~150k per trip to spend on some tubes of metal or sheets of cloth.
  - nomel 14d ago
    Sorry, typo, and unclear. I meant to say fuel is ~50% operational cost.
  - ricree 14d ago
    I've seen a few articles about Norsepower (mentioned in the top article) validating the shipboard measurement equipment meant to confirm how much is actively being saved by their sails. I haven't seen any hard numbers on what the actual savings are, but they've had at least one ship (Chinook Oldendorff) with sails since at least 2024. So hopefully the public will get some concrete numbers on how much is saved. Given the increasing number of companies that are mentioned as upcoming partners for actual installations, it might be that they've finally been able to convince shippers that wind power is viable for cost savings.

vintermann 15d ago

We're not going "back" to wind, but there are vessels with modern sails already deployed to save a couple of % fuel costs. There were 9 in 2020 and are 64 now, according to Sintef. Of course kinks are still getting ironed out, but it seems likely it will continue to grow.

defrost 15d ago

And yet: Klaveness Combination Carriers (KCC) has launched a brand-new vessel that aims to use wind technology that the company believes will not just reduce emissions, but also improve fuel efficiency on its voyages between China and Australia. Equipped with the first wind-assisted propulsion system in KCC’s fleet and a range of advanced energy efficiency technologies, MV Baltazar was officially launched at Fremantle Port this week .. According to the company, due to the ship’s trading area, size and advanced energy efficiency measures including suction sails, MV Baltazar has the lowest carbon footprint of any vessel in these trades. ~ (September 16, 2026) https://www.watoday.com.au/national/western-australia/high-seas-and-low-fuel-energy-efficient-ship-launches-in-fremantle-20260915-p60xok.html https://www.watoday.com.au/national/western-australia/high-s... > de-carbonizing shipping either with ammonia combustion, fuel cells, or both. Or methanol: Methanol is emerging as one of the most practical low-greenhouse gas (GHG) fuels for deep-sea shipping. * https://methanol.org/what-fuels-shipping https://methanol.org/what-fuels-shipping * https://www.dnv.com/maritime/publications/methanol-fuel-in-shipping-download/ https://www.dnv.com/maritime/publications/methanol-fuel-in-s... * https://www.lr.org/en/knowledge/research/fuel-for-thought/methanol/ https://www.lr.org/en/knowledge/research/fuel-for-thought/me...

GJim 15d ago
> methanol Currently made from crude oil in a CO2 emitting process from a finite fossil fuel resource. And yes, whilst methanol can be distilled from wood/crops (a more expensive process), this simply cannot scale, especially if humanity wishes to eat...... You do realise a large container ship is 1/4 mile long and carries north of 18,000 TEU containers; that's 9000 lorries worth. They are big.
- defrost 15d ago
  [flagged]
  - GJim 14d ago
    > green hydrogen plants. Splitting fresh water (salt water is a non-starter) for hydrogen is a rather energy inefficient and expensive process. > People still use miles? In maritime world, yes we do; nautical and statute. > do blather on in that condescending tone. I do appear to have touched a nerve old sport.

TeMPOraL 15d ago

I think news publishing has recurring schedule for topics for filler articles, and this is just the regularly scheduled appearance of Flettner rotors. I saw the headline, and immediately knew what it is. Always the same: headline implying sail power is back, body correcting that it's about minor fuel savings, and that some shipping companies are planning to install rotors on their fleet.

cucumber3732842 15d ago
Somewhere in a cube farm that hasn't been updated since the 90s: "This month's analytics report indicates our college educated white collar employed left leaning traffic to our properties is down over the same month last year" <puffs vape> "Don't worry about it, I'm having AI re-write all the green tech articles from 2005-15, it'll be back by November"
dinfinity 14d ago
"The International Windship Association says more than 100 large merchant ships are now equipped with modern wind propulsion systems, representing more than 5 million deadweight tons of carrying capacity." It's not much, but it's more than just planned stuff. I do generally agree with your sentiment.
jerf 14d ago
Let me just check the schedule here... ah, yes, it looks like we should be getting "AIRSHIPS - HAS THEIR TIME FINALLY COME" swinging back around here in about 6 weeks. See you all then.