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Australia says it could follow Canada in forging deeper ties with EU

245 points by doener 18d ago

dude250711 18d ago
Do it. Make it less embarrassing for UK to come back too somehow.
- tim333 17d ago
  Also, speaking as Brit, Australia and Canada getting involved might increase the argument for it being about trade and maybe travel and less about political integration, which the UK was never very keen on.
FlowingRiver 18d ago
It is an interesting position we are in here, I suspect we will do the usual thing and walk the middle road. Australia, is part of the Commonwealth, huge trade partner with Asia and allies with the US. Why not throw Canada into the mix some more. This setup is why I call this place an equal opportunist whore. If we can do business with you, we will. I also call it the worlds largest Mining town, but that just acknowledging the reality of the place a little. As much as many are going against the US, I don't think there is much constitution at the top here to make such a bold move. We will just be pottering around down here hoping all the bad stuff passes us by as nobody notices us.
- XorNot 18d ago
  Which is exactly the sensible plan. I want a government which does the cost effective thing, not one which tries to make statements with bold headlines. I want boring government policy which sensibly hedges against future risk in correct appreciation of our unbelievably fortunate geopolitical luck.
- bGl2YW5j 18d ago
  I'm Australian and am increasingly ok with this approach. I'm growing slowly out of a protectionist mindset, toward one of cautious, and considered collaboration. Singapore follows this approach and it has worked well for them so far.
  - xdennis 18d ago
    Singapore is a city, Australia is a continent. Singapore is a poor analog for pretty much every other country. It was founded precisely because it sits near a busy sea route. It makes sense for Singapore to be very open to trade. That does not mean it works for Australia. (I'm not arguing that the reverse is true, just that Singapore proves nothing.)
    - senectus1 18d ago
      its not just a city its an island and a country on it's own. but its posistioning is relevent yes.
    - bGl2YW5j 18d ago
      What do you reckon would work well for Aus?
  - BLKNSLVR 18d ago
    I've never really understood the protectionist mindset. It kinda only makes sense to me as a fading shadow of WWII paranoia. The invasion of Australia by a foreign adversary has never been something I've worried about (but, maybe, that's _because_ of the alignment with the US). I've also struggled with the practical logistics of it.
    - marcus_holmes 18d ago
      100%. The only conceivable threat of invasion would be China, and they can just buy Australian resources [0] for far cheaper than it would cost them to invade us. I don't understand who the cookers think we're defending against. [0] https://shunculture.com/article/what-australian-companies-are-chinese-owned https://shunculture.com/article/what-australian-companies-ar... it's about 2% in 2025
- akudha 18d ago
  India does the same. They try to be friendly (or at least on business terms) with as many countries as they can and stay out of global conflicts as much as possible. They were buying oil from Russia well after the Russia-Ukraine war started. It also worked well for India as they were able to get rock bottom prices. From a purely economic standpoint, this would make sense. Not sure what to feel about the ethics of it though - at least part of the Russian war bill was footed by the money India paid for Russian oil. One can argue the Ukraine's problems are not India's problems. One could also argue it would be nice to not fund shitty wars, even a little, even indirectly. Geopolitics is a complex subject I suppose, for a layman like me.
  - triceratops 18d ago
    > at least part of the Russian war bill was footed by the money India paid for Russian oil It's weird India gets held to this standard. Don't European countries still buy some natural gas from Russia?
    - carefree-bob 18d ago
      Russian natgas is laundered through third parties, whereas India is laundering Russian oil. Not saying I support any of these sanctions or tariffs, but India is making bank selling Russian oil to Europe right now, so there is going to be some political blowback. Malaysia also.
      - triceratops 17d ago
        > India is making bank selling Russian oil to Europe So...Europe is buying Russian oil and gas? Bit counterproductive, no?
  - gg82 18d ago
    Russian crude made up 35-40% of India's oil imports in 2024. I'm sure it is not much different at present. Although a bill just passed through congress that will allow Trump to put up to a 100% Tariff on Indian imports.
- BLKNSLVR 18d ago
  But there's also no fundamental need for a bold move either. Country relationships are almost entirely based on trade. It's 'nice' when there are ideology and policy overlaps, but they would get overlooked if there were serious trade disputes (although it's less likely to happen as it's easier to form trade agreements with the like-minded). The relationship with the US is deteriorating entirely due to trade. The Iran war is an example of this because it completely fucks international and internal logistics. I don't think Australia, politically, cares if the US bomb Iran or even commit war crimes there, but the fact it affects trade (via oil prices and all the ripple effects of that) is the reason for at least preparation of an 'exit relationship' stance (and, of course, the other trade circus sideshows Trump is putting on, vis a vis tariffs). I'm not sure Australia does much trade with Russia, hence Australia can support Ukraine until the cows come home, without risking trade margins.
- fyredge 18d ago
  You'd be surprised at how many equal opportunist whores there are on earth. These are the countries that I believe Mark Carney referred to when he said "middle powers". It is simply the most rational choice for countries who wish to thrive to play all sides, taking none and survive the disruptions.
  - FlowingRiver 18d ago
    Carney saying 'middle powers' really is the most polite way of saying this.
nl 18d ago
Just to be clear on this - Australia is primarily interested in methods of reducing trade barriers, not any sort of political union. Australia is economically served well by free trade: most of its production is low cost, high quality primary production of mining outputs and agricultural goods (grains, wool and meat) where if price and quality are the primary selection criteria it wins. The downside of this is that Australia hasn't really got any significant manufacturing or advanced technology industry. But it has made Australia one of the best performing economies of the past 25 years.
- someperson 18d ago
  A big part of what makes Australia a better performing economy is maintaining high population growth rate of 1.5%, mostly through immigration. Has had implications on housing affordability, but it's great for GDP statistics. https://www.macrotrends.net/global-metrics/countries/aus/australia/population https://www.macrotrends.net/global-metrics/countries/aus/aus...
  - PorciiVorbesc 18d ago
    >Has had implications on housing affordability, but it's great for GDP statistics. Which high performing economy DOESN'T struggle with housing affordability? >mostly through immigration *SKILLED immigration
    - qball 18d ago
      The high performing economies that didn't make it illegal to build are high performing because of that. This is why the highest standard of living on the planet, with the highest GDP over the largest population... is in Texas. The fact the people there aren't pathologically conservative/authoritarian in the "build absolutely nothing anywhere near anything" sense is the precise reason why that is.
      - pinchydev 18d ago
        Texas has the world's high standard of living? I don't know what metric you're using, but it ranks 37th of the 50 states just behind Arizona on the Human Development Index which ranks health, education, income. Texas at 0.917 is above the EU average (0.915) but below many others including the top Iceland (0.972), Norway (0.970), Australia (0.958), Canada (0.939), Japan (0.925) and the US as a whole (0.938) So while Texas is indeed the wealthiest per GDP per capital (using your "over the largest population" filter) ($91,594 / 31.71M pop), it has a much lower HDI than countries with much lower GDP per capita, like Japan ($35,973 / 123.29M pop). In other words Texas out-earns Australia per head by 38% but trails it by 0.041 on HDI HDI uses the log of income, so extra dollars count for less, and Texas lags on the life expectancy and schooling components. For example, if we take the life expectancy in isolation to see the dragging metric, Texas is ranked 46th in the world at 79.1 years (2022 data), just behind 45th Estonia at 79.3 years (2024 data), but a long way behind 6th Australia (84.1 years) and 3rd Japan (84.9 years). (edit: I used Japan as illustrative of a large population with a low GDP per capital to highlight that GDP isn't everything, and Australia as that's the country of question in this tread)
temp3452 18d ago
[flagged]
- smcin 18d ago
  CFMEU sounded like some EU thing, but it's not, it's Construction, Forestry and Maritime Employees Union (CFMEU), one of Australia's largest blue-collar trade unions.
- jojobas 18d ago
  Nobody in Australia should like it.
  - 1attice 18d ago
    That seems harsh, despite all the hot weather
ernsheong 18d ago
They should resurrect the Commonwealth into a stronger union of sorts instead of just playing sports every four years.
- bawolff 18d ago
  Be deeply ironic if USA revives the British Empire.
bjt12345 18d ago
The Australian government has always taken "great interest" in what Canada does in regards to policy - they practically copy Canada all the time, even my Economics lecturer made a point about this. This isn't news. Australia also has a huge problem with exports. For decades, China had huge demand for Australia's resources, particularly Iron Ore. However China is reducing this, so Australia needs a new plan.
- kimos 18d ago
  There are many obvious differences, but Canada and Australia share many characteristics and I find myself comparing to Aussies. Similar population, massive landmass, population mostly contained in narrow stripes at the edges, ex UK colony, middle power, etc..
- willsmith72 18d ago
  you might be overstating the problem. for sure there's overreliance on China which is decreasing slightly (1-3% from what I remember), but Australian exports are still increasing because of the US, India, Japan and many others
bhaak 18d ago
That's a brilliant move by von der Leyen and Mark Carney (I guess he's in on it as well). There is currently no such status as "associate member" defined in the EU treates although the idea of special status for not being a complete member was floating around for a while now. Just calling it a "unique alliance" or "deepening of their relationship" wouldn't have had such a public effect. Half of the right wing influencers on X is going bananas because when the US was "offering" Canada to join them, they said a firm "NO" but for the EU they are opening the door. Trump even said when the Canada joins the EU as associate member, it could be considered a hostile act. All that for a status nobody knows yet what it will entail. More than a simple trade deal, for sure, but also a lot less than a proper membership.
- kevin_thibedeau 18d ago
  There is this Venn diagram[1]. Canada could shift into the Council of Europe like Georgia or join Schengen with an independent currency like the Swiss. The latter would be a nice arrangement for Canadian passport holders. [1] https://www.reddit.com/r/europe/comments/1qbq43v/european_integration_2026_a_comprehensive_venn/ https://www.reddit.com/r/europe/comments/1qbq43v/european_in...
  - Sanzig 18d ago
    Canada doesn't share a land border with any Schengen countries, so I'm not sure how valuable passport-free travel would be - you're already taking a transatlantic flight, it's not like passport control is a huge additional hassle. However, I could see a big argument for a labour mobility agreement similar to the NAFTA model, where EU citizens in a long list of professions have the right to work in Canada and vice-versa.
    - manyatoms 18d ago
      It says a lot psychologically to take a 'domestic' flight instead though, gives people more of a sense of togetherness
  - rsynnott 18d ago
deleted 18d ago
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mindwok 18d ago
As an Australian, I have noticed a shift personally in feeling like I identify more with "European" culture, compared to 10 years ago I felt like we were the 51st state and I felt very close with the US. This seems to be shared by others, I remember reading there was a survey that asked Australians who they felt our closest international friend was. The US was the top answer for over a decade, having stolen the crown from the UK I think in the late 90s or something. Recently though, it switched to New Zealand.
- drekipus 18d ago
  I don't believe that. Can you find this survey you were talking about?
  - latexr 18d ago
    Basic web search for “australia survey closest international friend” returned https://poll.lowyinstitute.org/charts/australias-best-friend-world/ https://poll.lowyinstitute.org/charts/australias-best-friend...
    - drekipus 18d ago
      Right, so the US had a high of 35% and then dropped and has never been higher than that. I just wanted to check the OPs survey because it could have been something different i.e.: that supports the claim
- cosmic_cheese 18d ago
  From the American side it felt like we had more cross-pollination with Australia in the 90s than in the decades following. Disney even had a studio out there that animated some of the TV shows it aired in the US (and presumably in Australia too). Not sure what changed.
  - carefree-bob 18d ago
    Apart from the "Crocodile Dundee" and "Men at Work" phenomena in the late 80s, there is no real cultural pollination between Australia and the US, as far as I can tell. It's too far away and there are no real reasons for Americans to visit, nor are there enough internationally notable Australian music brands, films, or products that give visibility to the country, which is one price of being a commodity producing nation rather than finished goods. We know about Japanese and British prodigious cultural output, Japanese manufactures, German cars and Swiss machine tools and watches, but what product makes Australia stand out? Coal, copper, etc. Didn't Australia used to have an auto industry? I kinda feel like Australia stopped producing culturally relevant output in the late 80s or 90s.
bpbp-mango 18d ago
The current government seems to be quite determined to pretend our British heritage isn't a large and important part of us. I don't understand it.
- marcus_holmes 18d ago
  It's because the British heritage involved committing huge crimes against the indigenous folks that we haven't really acknowledged and haven't dealt with. We can't move on until we do. So we're kinda stuck.
  - BLKNSLVR 18d ago
    I think it's fairly well acknowledged, but there is no 'dealt with' that fits into any kind of reality I'm familiar with. My purely observational understanding is that there are fundamental incompatibilities between aboriginal and 'western/British' culture. "Ownership" of land as probably the primary example. I don't know how that gets 'dealt with'.
    - lokar 18d ago
      I don’t know the discussion in Australia, but in Alaska (also having an indigenous population with land ownership) they found solutions. Regional “native corporations” were given large amounts of valuable land, natives were given preferential resource rights (fishing, etc). Not everything is perfect (far from it), but a lot has been done.
      - marcus_holmes 18d ago
        Yeah, other ex-British colonies with similar problems are doing great work in reconciling their differences. We could learn from them.
        lokar 17d ago
        I think in Alaska it helps that the natives have enough votes to be politically relevant.
bethekidyouwant 18d ago
Canada is just trying to encourage Europe to invest in Canada which is fine I suppose… all the power to Europeans if they want to invest their money here instead of the US… but I am not holding my breath
- akarpenko 18d ago
  What money? Their economic growth is half of the US and with strong headwinds. EU GDP is also smaller than the US by far.
  - marcus_holmes 18d ago
    You should read more Krugman. There's a whole argument about this.
    - akarpenko 18d ago
      Krugman :'D Why not post a reference to the argument?
      - marcus_holmes 18d ago
        Let me Kagi that for you... https://paulkrugman.substack.com/p/europe-v-america-whos-really-winning https://paulkrugman.substack.com/p/europe-v-america-whos-rea...
  - ocd 18d ago
    US GDP is mostly imaginary and not tangible. It's dependent on both international respect for intellectual property laws (reason for the anger toward China), and the natural resources of other lands (that have had their governments blamed by the current administration actively misleading US citizens about provenance of what is needed to sustain American life) Intellectual property laws being recognized, US fiat currency, etc. vs. the hard value of natural resources of these other countries (that the US would prefer to try to annex and loot since the former is not a base you can build on) When you're deciding on long term trade and economic policy, are you thinking about fabricated valuations of US tech companies, or whether you have energy, minerals, and food supply that have an actual value attached?
kelt_row 18d ago
Hope this means less friction for EU/AU tech companies. Navigating different privacy laws is a pain.
486sx33 18d ago
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kwhitlock 18d ago
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jojobas 18d ago
Like ordering the submarines from France... again?
- marcus_holmes 18d ago
  At least there's a chance those ones might actually turn up. They'll still be useless, but at least we'd actually have them.
  - XorNot 18d ago
    The Trump admin will be 2 years out of office by the time the Virginia deliveries are slated to start. If America goes fully fascist by then, then the wisdom of that contract will be the least of our problems (or to put it another way: what's the alternative? Because if you're serious about the threat it's "crash course nuclear weapons and a delivery vehicle" if you want to guarantee our sovereignty).
spiralpolitik 18d ago
I'm guessing Canada and Australia would go for an EFTA 'lite' type deal. As EFTA doesn't require a customs union it's probably the easiest to implement and build up from. I think they amended EFTA to require free movement which was a no-op as all the EFTA countries had free movement with the EU. I could see the EU agreeing to a NAFTA style workers visa if they really wanted push the freedom of movement side hence the 'lite' bit.
- flir 18d ago
  If .ca and .au did arrange free movement in and out of the EU (and with each other?), that would really be the cherry on the Brexit cake.
- notatoad 18d ago
  canada already has CETA for EU trade and CEFTA for trade with the EFTA. it seems like "associate membership" must mean something that goes beyond just a free trade agreement, because that already exists.
  - johneth 17d ago
    And not all EU members have ratified CETA either, so I'm not sure why everyone's getting their hopes up about "associate membership", whatever that is (it's not defined in the EU treaties). They can't even fully ratify a trade deal after almost a decade.
avazhi 18d ago
As yes, I was wondering when my Federal government’s sense of FOMO would compel it to needlessly yap into the void like anybody cares. I see today was the day.
whatsThisBtn4 18d ago
[flagged]
- xethos 18d ago
  > Gosh if Kamala was elected, there'd still be a war in Iran, but we'd pretend it's different. Obama bombed Syria and no one cared. Are we really going to pretend the 51st state rhetoric would be the same with any Democrat in the White House? > Do we hate giving the uneducated masses a vote? No, I but I do think they've had some dogshit candidates picked for them, especially recently
  - whatsThisBtn4 18d ago
    Still more democracy. And rethoric doesn't matter in international relations. It's empty posturing. When is France going to send troops to Ukraine? Sorry pals, this is one of the failings/successes of k12. We are taught Idealism. Words don't matter. It's wild the disconnect between people who study international relations and highly educated westerners.
  - YZF 18d ago
    The rhetoric was trolling. It's sad that a childish troll is president but let's call this what it was. Trump trolling Trudeau. Certainly riled everyone up, changed the Canadian elections results, etc. Doesn't seem to matter if it's uneducated masses or educated masses, the intelligence of the masses seems to be a minimum function at best. But yeah the quality of people in politics is terrible. I thought very highly of Obama in terms of intellect, honesty, pragmatism, etc. Postcard leader. but he seemingly still managed to mess lots of things up. Or maybe we over-estimate the impact this one person on the top actually has on anything.
    - bawolff 18d ago
      The rhetoric was backed by action. That is what makes it different than trolling Not to mention Trudeau has been gone for a while now, so I dont know how that is relavent.
unixhero 18d ago
Can I move to Asutralia now... please
- BLKNSLVR 18d ago
  Spelling the country's name correctly is one of few prerequisites. Maybe if Australia created very strong trade ties with Taiwan, we would change the name of the country to Asustralia.
  - tripleee 18d ago
    I do believe they were talking about Asutralia, not Asustralia. A common misunderstanding. Taiwan might not need to be involved.
    - unixhero 18d ago
      But I want to get to know Raygun and learn her styles.
      - defrost 18d ago
        Global breaking just wasn't ready for interpretive dance ... FWiW, released last month: https://www.theguardian.com/tv-and-radio/2026/sep/01/raygun-breaking-badly-review-netflix-ridiculed-olympic-breakdancer-total-joy https://www.theguardian.com/tv-and-radio/2026/sep/01/raygun-... as part of Untold (2021) https://www.thetvdb.com/series/407414-untold/allseasons/official https://www.thetvdb.com/series/407414-untold/allseasons/offi...
NDlurker 18d ago
I love Australia. Amazing country. Great people. I'd move back in an instant if given the opportunity. As an American, I always felt welcome there, but haven't been there since 2016. It'll be interesting seeing how attitudes have changed when I'm back visiting in 2028.
- weakened_malloc 18d ago
  ill swap places with you, if you like, lol
  - NDlurker 18d ago
    Ok! Why aren't citizenship swaps allowed?
- Toslink 18d ago
  [dead]
- marcus_holmes 18d ago
  Basically the same. We love seppoes as people [0]. It's just the government we're annoyed at. [0] though if you could learn to moderate your voices in public spaces, that would be great.
jmyeet 18d ago
This and Canada are just kneejerk reactions against the chaos of the Trump administration. While that makes sense, my prediction is that in the short-term it won't amount to much. In the long-term, history books will write about these years as redefining the world order that's existed largely since 1945. As for Canada, nobody really knows what associate membership means. Given that EU freedoms are reciprocal I just don't see this going anywhere. Plus there's been a free trade deal with the EU on the table for a decade that hasn't been ratified. As for redefining the world order, that's what this war of choice in Iran will amount to. In the short-to-medium term it's going to redefine the Gulf security architecture. The refusal to restrain Israel probably means Russia will swallow the eastern chunk of Ukraine they occupy. And of course the big winner in all of this is China who have had to do absolutely nothing. Empires don't die overnight and they die violently. This is going to be bad but I honestly see no way the US can restore its position as the global hegemon. It's influence has peaked. And I don't believe anything will reverse that. So I don't know what this means for Australia. It has operated essentially as an American colonial outpost since the Cold War. The geography was once much more important to cover the sky for receiving satellite communications. Selling raw resources is ultimately untenable for an economy (IMHO) but Australia has gone down the path of turning the entire economy into a massive Ponzi scheme of housing, like almost every other developed nation. When housing is the only logical investment, it dominates capital and lending and productive output falls off a cliff, which is exactly what happened.
- YZF 18d ago
  We shall see. But Russia's invasion of Ukraine way predates the recent wars in the middle east. It's more like the inability to restrain Russia's aspirations in Ukraine have led to instability in the rest of the world. More generally the failure to sustain a more free and democratic Russia or China is perhaps the source of all the other instabilities which all involve political, military and financial support from the China/Russia axis. I wouldn't write off the US quite yet but it's definitely more of a multi-polar world with the US and China the major powers vs. the brief single polar world that followed the fall of the USSR. Arguably the quietest and most prosperous period ever, the largest number of people worldwide rising up from poverty etc. We're gonna miss it.
Danox 18d ago
Australia and New Zealand should definitely do so. If they haven’t figured it out after a year and 3/4 they never will.
hn_submit 18d ago
I believe this will turn around. The mood is a sign of the times and the general dislike of the man in the White House. But he won't be there forever yet Canada will always be the U.S.' Northern neighbor, biggest trading partner and cultural big brother. Carney is simply looking elsewhere for friends after being insulted by Trump who treats him like a subordinate and not someone of equal standing. He may even be foolish enough to cozy up to China. As for Australia, I don't understand the vibe here. Trump hasn't mentioned Australia becoming a U.S. territory in any speeches I've heard. Again, maybe it's a general dislike for the man and his roughshod policies.
- manyatoms 18d ago
  Trump isn't going to mess with Australia. Fox News is owned by a guy who grew up in Australia.
- rsynnott 18d ago
  The trouble is, Pandora's box has been opened. It turns out that the president of the US can act like a crazy post-Soviet-style dictator, and that the mechanisms which are supposed to prevent that are simply not fit for purpose. Even if in 2028 the US elects the most sensible, rule-of-law-oriented president imaginable, allies will still have to look to 2032. Fixing the problem would require constitutional change, which in the US is virtually impossible.
  - hn_submit 18d ago
    The powers granted to the U.S. President are meant to be used in times of war or situations that threatens the security of the United States. Trump is using it nilly-willy for just about everything. It will, however, be difficult to come up with a law that would put a stop to this without harming the Executive Branch's effectiveness in a time of need. But so far I'm pretty satisfied how Congress and the judiciary are putting reins on his powers. He recently threatened to halt all trade with Europe over Canada's associate EU membership. There's no way he can do that. Congress would step in.
    - 17d ago
mattoxic 18d ago
Australia is blessed with quite the spineless government at the moment. I doubt very much that they would be doing anything (at all actually) as concrete as forging deeper ties with Europe - at least at the expense of the US. After all, it wasn't so long ago that Australia handed the US $800 million of its citizen's hard-earned for submarines that might not ever get built within an alliance that looks increasingly one-sided.
- jsonc 18d ago
  Yep, pretty disappointed with our current government, they're not listening at all to the population, just lobbyists and those with $10k for a dinner with the PM. And ON is certainly not the solution either, despite many thinking it is.
ChrisArchitect 18d ago
[dupe] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=49712186 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=49712186
manyatoms 18d ago
This seems like a careful way to send a message to US Congress about what they're enabling.
totetsu 17d ago
To avoid the comming massive risk to human life from climate disruption, I think there needs to be an Australasian / ASEAN open boarder arangement like the schengen area.

245 points by doener 18d ago

dude250711 18d ago

Do it. Make it less embarrassing for UK to come back too somehow.

tim333 17d ago
Also, speaking as Brit, Australia and Canada getting involved might increase the argument for it being about trade and maybe travel and less about political integration, which the UK was never very keen on.

FlowingRiver 18d ago

It is an interesting position we are in here, I suspect we will do the usual thing and walk the middle road. Australia, is part of the Commonwealth, huge trade partner with Asia and allies with the US. Why not throw Canada into the mix some more. This setup is why I call this place an equal opportunist whore. If we can do business with you, we will. I also call it the worlds largest Mining town, but that just acknowledging the reality of the place a little. As much as many are going against the US, I don't think there is much constitution at the top here to make such a bold move. We will just be pottering around down here hoping all the bad stuff passes us by as nobody notices us.

XorNot 18d ago
Which is exactly the sensible plan. I want a government which does the cost effective thing, not one which tries to make statements with bold headlines. I want boring government policy which sensibly hedges against future risk in correct appreciation of our unbelievably fortunate geopolitical luck.
bGl2YW5j 18d ago
I'm Australian and am increasingly ok with this approach. I'm growing slowly out of a protectionist mindset, toward one of cautious, and considered collaboration. Singapore follows this approach and it has worked well for them so far.
- xdennis 18d ago
  Singapore is a city, Australia is a continent. Singapore is a poor analog for pretty much every other country. It was founded precisely because it sits near a busy sea route. It makes sense for Singapore to be very open to trade. That does not mean it works for Australia. (I'm not arguing that the reverse is true, just that Singapore proves nothing.)
  - senectus1 18d ago
    its not just a city its an island and a country on it's own. but its posistioning is relevent yes.
  - bGl2YW5j 18d ago
    What do you reckon would work well for Aus?
- BLKNSLVR 18d ago
  I've never really understood the protectionist mindset. It kinda only makes sense to me as a fading shadow of WWII paranoia. The invasion of Australia by a foreign adversary has never been something I've worried about (but, maybe, that's _because_ of the alignment with the US). I've also struggled with the practical logistics of it.
  - marcus_holmes 18d ago
    100%. The only conceivable threat of invasion would be China, and they can just buy Australian resources [0] for far cheaper than it would cost them to invade us. I don't understand who the cookers think we're defending against. [0] https://shunculture.com/article/what-australian-companies-are-chinese-owned https://shunculture.com/article/what-australian-companies-ar... it's about 2% in 2025
akudha 18d ago
India does the same. They try to be friendly (or at least on business terms) with as many countries as they can and stay out of global conflicts as much as possible. They were buying oil from Russia well after the Russia-Ukraine war started. It also worked well for India as they were able to get rock bottom prices. From a purely economic standpoint, this would make sense. Not sure what to feel about the ethics of it though - at least part of the Russian war bill was footed by the money India paid for Russian oil. One can argue the Ukraine's problems are not India's problems. One could also argue it would be nice to not fund shitty wars, even a little, even indirectly. Geopolitics is a complex subject I suppose, for a layman like me.
- triceratops 18d ago
  > at least part of the Russian war bill was footed by the money India paid for Russian oil It's weird India gets held to this standard. Don't European countries still buy some natural gas from Russia?
  - carefree-bob 18d ago
    Russian natgas is laundered through third parties, whereas India is laundering Russian oil. Not saying I support any of these sanctions or tariffs, but India is making bank selling Russian oil to Europe right now, so there is going to be some political blowback. Malaysia also.
    - triceratops 17d ago
      > India is making bank selling Russian oil to Europe So...Europe is buying Russian oil and gas? Bit counterproductive, no?
- gg82 18d ago
  Russian crude made up 35-40% of India's oil imports in 2024. I'm sure it is not much different at present. Although a bill just passed through congress that will allow Trump to put up to a 100% Tariff on Indian imports.
BLKNSLVR 18d ago
But there's also no fundamental need for a bold move either. Country relationships are almost entirely based on trade. It's 'nice' when there are ideology and policy overlaps, but they would get overlooked if there were serious trade disputes (although it's less likely to happen as it's easier to form trade agreements with the like-minded). The relationship with the US is deteriorating entirely due to trade. The Iran war is an example of this because it completely fucks international and internal logistics. I don't think Australia, politically, cares if the US bomb Iran or even commit war crimes there, but the fact it affects trade (via oil prices and all the ripple effects of that) is the reason for at least preparation of an 'exit relationship' stance (and, of course, the other trade circus sideshows Trump is putting on, vis a vis tariffs). I'm not sure Australia does much trade with Russia, hence Australia can support Ukraine until the cows come home, without risking trade margins.
fyredge 18d ago
You'd be surprised at how many equal opportunist whores there are on earth. These are the countries that I believe Mark Carney referred to when he said "middle powers". It is simply the most rational choice for countries who wish to thrive to play all sides, taking none and survive the disruptions.
- FlowingRiver 18d ago
  Carney saying 'middle powers' really is the most polite way of saying this.

nl 18d ago

Just to be clear on this - Australia is primarily interested in methods of reducing trade barriers, not any sort of political union. Australia is economically served well by free trade: most of its production is low cost, high quality primary production of mining outputs and agricultural goods (grains, wool and meat) where if price and quality are the primary selection criteria it wins. The downside of this is that Australia hasn't really got any significant manufacturing or advanced technology industry. But it has made Australia one of the best performing economies of the past 25 years.

someperson 18d ago
A big part of what makes Australia a better performing economy is maintaining high population growth rate of 1.5%, mostly through immigration. Has had implications on housing affordability, but it's great for GDP statistics. https://www.macrotrends.net/global-metrics/countries/aus/australia/population https://www.macrotrends.net/global-metrics/countries/aus/aus...
- PorciiVorbesc 18d ago
  >Has had implications on housing affordability, but it's great for GDP statistics. Which high performing economy DOESN'T struggle with housing affordability? >mostly through immigration *SKILLED immigration
  - qball 18d ago
    The high performing economies that didn't make it illegal to build are high performing because of that. This is why the highest standard of living on the planet, with the highest GDP over the largest population... is in Texas. The fact the people there aren't pathologically conservative/authoritarian in the "build absolutely nothing anywhere near anything" sense is the precise reason why that is.
    - pinchydev 18d ago
      Texas has the world's high standard of living? I don't know what metric you're using, but it ranks 37th of the 50 states just behind Arizona on the Human Development Index which ranks health, education, income. Texas at 0.917 is above the EU average (0.915) but below many others including the top Iceland (0.972), Norway (0.970), Australia (0.958), Canada (0.939), Japan (0.925) and the US as a whole (0.938) So while Texas is indeed the wealthiest per GDP per capital (using your "over the largest population" filter) ($91,594 / 31.71M pop), it has a much lower HDI than countries with much lower GDP per capita, like Japan ($35,973 / 123.29M pop). In other words Texas out-earns Australia per head by 38% but trails it by 0.041 on HDI HDI uses the log of income, so extra dollars count for less, and Texas lags on the life expectancy and schooling components. For example, if we take the life expectancy in isolation to see the dragging metric, Texas is ranked 46th in the world at 79.1 years (2022 data), just behind 45th Estonia at 79.3 years (2024 data), but a long way behind 6th Australia (84.1 years) and 3rd Japan (84.9 years). (edit: I used Japan as illustrative of a large population with a low GDP per capital to highlight that GDP isn't everything, and Australia as that's the country of question in this tread)

temp3452 18d ago

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smcin 18d ago
CFMEU sounded like some EU thing, but it's not, it's Construction, Forestry and Maritime Employees Union (CFMEU), one of Australia's largest blue-collar trade unions.
jojobas 18d ago
Nobody in Australia should like it.
- 1attice 18d ago
  That seems harsh, despite all the hot weather

ernsheong 18d ago

They should resurrect the Commonwealth into a stronger union of sorts instead of just playing sports every four years.

bawolff 18d ago
Be deeply ironic if USA revives the British Empire.

bjt12345 18d ago

The Australian government has always taken "great interest" in what Canada does in regards to policy - they practically copy Canada all the time, even my Economics lecturer made a point about this. This isn't news. Australia also has a huge problem with exports. For decades, China had huge demand for Australia's resources, particularly Iron Ore. However China is reducing this, so Australia needs a new plan.

kimos 18d ago
There are many obvious differences, but Canada and Australia share many characteristics and I find myself comparing to Aussies. Similar population, massive landmass, population mostly contained in narrow stripes at the edges, ex UK colony, middle power, etc..
willsmith72 18d ago
you might be overstating the problem. for sure there's overreliance on China which is decreasing slightly (1-3% from what I remember), but Australian exports are still increasing because of the US, India, Japan and many others

bhaak 18d ago

That's a brilliant move by von der Leyen and Mark Carney (I guess he's in on it as well). There is currently no such status as "associate member" defined in the EU treates although the idea of special status for not being a complete member was floating around for a while now. Just calling it a "unique alliance" or "deepening of their relationship" wouldn't have had such a public effect. Half of the right wing influencers on X is going bananas because when the US was "offering" Canada to join them, they said a firm "NO" but for the EU they are opening the door. Trump even said when the Canada joins the EU as associate member, it could be considered a hostile act. All that for a status nobody knows yet what it will entail. More than a simple trade deal, for sure, but also a lot less than a proper membership.

kevin_thibedeau 18d ago
There is this Venn diagram[1]. Canada could shift into the Council of Europe like Georgia or join Schengen with an independent currency like the Swiss. The latter would be a nice arrangement for Canadian passport holders. [1] https://www.reddit.com/r/europe/comments/1qbq43v/european_integration_2026_a_comprehensive_venn/ https://www.reddit.com/r/europe/comments/1qbq43v/european_in...
- Sanzig 18d ago
  Canada doesn't share a land border with any Schengen countries, so I'm not sure how valuable passport-free travel would be - you're already taking a transatlantic flight, it's not like passport control is a huge additional hassle. However, I could see a big argument for a labour mobility agreement similar to the NAFTA model, where EU citizens in a long list of professions have the right to work in Canada and vice-versa.
  - manyatoms 18d ago
    It says a lot psychologically to take a 'domestic' flight instead though, gives people more of a sense of togetherness
- rsynnott 18d ago

deleted 18d ago

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mindwok 18d ago

As an Australian, I have noticed a shift personally in feeling like I identify more with "European" culture, compared to 10 years ago I felt like we were the 51st state and I felt very close with the US. This seems to be shared by others, I remember reading there was a survey that asked Australians who they felt our closest international friend was. The US was the top answer for over a decade, having stolen the crown from the UK I think in the late 90s or something. Recently though, it switched to New Zealand.

drekipus 18d ago
I don't believe that. Can you find this survey you were talking about?
- latexr 18d ago
  Basic web search for “australia survey closest international friend” returned https://poll.lowyinstitute.org/charts/australias-best-friend-world/ https://poll.lowyinstitute.org/charts/australias-best-friend...
  - drekipus 18d ago
    Right, so the US had a high of 35% and then dropped and has never been higher than that. I just wanted to check the OPs survey because it could have been something different i.e.: that supports the claim
cosmic_cheese 18d ago
From the American side it felt like we had more cross-pollination with Australia in the 90s than in the decades following. Disney even had a studio out there that animated some of the TV shows it aired in the US (and presumably in Australia too). Not sure what changed.
- carefree-bob 18d ago
  Apart from the "Crocodile Dundee" and "Men at Work" phenomena in the late 80s, there is no real cultural pollination between Australia and the US, as far as I can tell. It's too far away and there are no real reasons for Americans to visit, nor are there enough internationally notable Australian music brands, films, or products that give visibility to the country, which is one price of being a commodity producing nation rather than finished goods. We know about Japanese and British prodigious cultural output, Japanese manufactures, German cars and Swiss machine tools and watches, but what product makes Australia stand out? Coal, copper, etc. Didn't Australia used to have an auto industry? I kinda feel like Australia stopped producing culturally relevant output in the late 80s or 90s.

bpbp-mango 18d ago

The current government seems to be quite determined to pretend our British heritage isn't a large and important part of us. I don't understand it.

marcus_holmes 18d ago
It's because the British heritage involved committing huge crimes against the indigenous folks that we haven't really acknowledged and haven't dealt with. We can't move on until we do. So we're kinda stuck.
- BLKNSLVR 18d ago
  I think it's fairly well acknowledged, but there is no 'dealt with' that fits into any kind of reality I'm familiar with. My purely observational understanding is that there are fundamental incompatibilities between aboriginal and 'western/British' culture. "Ownership" of land as probably the primary example. I don't know how that gets 'dealt with'.
  - lokar 18d ago
    I don’t know the discussion in Australia, but in Alaska (also having an indigenous population with land ownership) they found solutions. Regional “native corporations” were given large amounts of valuable land, natives were given preferential resource rights (fishing, etc). Not everything is perfect (far from it), but a lot has been done.
    - marcus_holmes 18d ago
      Yeah, other ex-British colonies with similar problems are doing great work in reconciling their differences. We could learn from them.
      - lokar 17d ago
        I think in Alaska it helps that the natives have enough votes to be politically relevant.

bethekidyouwant 18d ago

Canada is just trying to encourage Europe to invest in Canada which is fine I suppose… all the power to Europeans if they want to invest their money here instead of the US… but I am not holding my breath

akarpenko 18d ago
What money? Their economic growth is half of the US and with strong headwinds. EU GDP is also smaller than the US by far.
- marcus_holmes 18d ago
  You should read more Krugman. There's a whole argument about this.
  - akarpenko 18d ago
    Krugman :'D Why not post a reference to the argument?
    - marcus_holmes 18d ago
      Let me Kagi that for you... https://paulkrugman.substack.com/p/europe-v-america-whos-really-winning https://paulkrugman.substack.com/p/europe-v-america-whos-rea...
- ocd 18d ago
  US GDP is mostly imaginary and not tangible. It's dependent on both international respect for intellectual property laws (reason for the anger toward China), and the natural resources of other lands (that have had their governments blamed by the current administration actively misleading US citizens about provenance of what is needed to sustain American life) Intellectual property laws being recognized, US fiat currency, etc. vs. the hard value of natural resources of these other countries (that the US would prefer to try to annex and loot since the former is not a base you can build on) When you're deciding on long term trade and economic policy, are you thinking about fabricated valuations of US tech companies, or whether you have energy, minerals, and food supply that have an actual value attached?

kelt_row 18d ago

Hope this means less friction for EU/AU tech companies. Navigating different privacy laws is a pain.

486sx33 18d ago

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kwhitlock 18d ago

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jojobas 18d ago

Like ordering the submarines from France... again?

marcus_holmes 18d ago
At least there's a chance those ones might actually turn up. They'll still be useless, but at least we'd actually have them.
- XorNot 18d ago
  The Trump admin will be 2 years out of office by the time the Virginia deliveries are slated to start. If America goes fully fascist by then, then the wisdom of that contract will be the least of our problems (or to put it another way: what's the alternative? Because if you're serious about the threat it's "crash course nuclear weapons and a delivery vehicle" if you want to guarantee our sovereignty).

spiralpolitik 18d ago

I'm guessing Canada and Australia would go for an EFTA 'lite' type deal. As EFTA doesn't require a customs union it's probably the easiest to implement and build up from. I think they amended EFTA to require free movement which was a no-op as all the EFTA countries had free movement with the EU. I could see the EU agreeing to a NAFTA style workers visa if they really wanted push the freedom of movement side hence the 'lite' bit.

flir 18d ago
If .ca and .au did arrange free movement in and out of the EU (and with each other?), that would really be the cherry on the Brexit cake.
notatoad 18d ago
canada already has CETA for EU trade and CEFTA for trade with the EFTA. it seems like "associate membership" must mean something that goes beyond just a free trade agreement, because that already exists.
- johneth 17d ago
  And not all EU members have ratified CETA either, so I'm not sure why everyone's getting their hopes up about "associate membership", whatever that is (it's not defined in the EU treaties). They can't even fully ratify a trade deal after almost a decade.

avazhi 18d ago

As yes, I was wondering when my Federal government’s sense of FOMO would compel it to needlessly yap into the void like anybody cares. I see today was the day.

whatsThisBtn4 18d ago

[flagged]

xethos 18d ago
> Gosh if Kamala was elected, there'd still be a war in Iran, but we'd pretend it's different. Obama bombed Syria and no one cared. Are we really going to pretend the 51st state rhetoric would be the same with any Democrat in the White House? > Do we hate giving the uneducated masses a vote? No, I but I do think they've had some dogshit candidates picked for them, especially recently
- whatsThisBtn4 18d ago
  Still more democracy. And rethoric doesn't matter in international relations. It's empty posturing. When is France going to send troops to Ukraine? Sorry pals, this is one of the failings/successes of k12. We are taught Idealism. Words don't matter. It's wild the disconnect between people who study international relations and highly educated westerners.
- YZF 18d ago
  The rhetoric was trolling. It's sad that a childish troll is president but let's call this what it was. Trump trolling Trudeau. Certainly riled everyone up, changed the Canadian elections results, etc. Doesn't seem to matter if it's uneducated masses or educated masses, the intelligence of the masses seems to be a minimum function at best. But yeah the quality of people in politics is terrible. I thought very highly of Obama in terms of intellect, honesty, pragmatism, etc. Postcard leader. but he seemingly still managed to mess lots of things up. Or maybe we over-estimate the impact this one person on the top actually has on anything.
  - bawolff 18d ago
    The rhetoric was backed by action. That is what makes it different than trolling Not to mention Trudeau has been gone for a while now, so I dont know how that is relavent.

unixhero 18d ago

Can I move to Asutralia now... please

BLKNSLVR 18d ago
Spelling the country's name correctly is one of few prerequisites. Maybe if Australia created very strong trade ties with Taiwan, we would change the name of the country to Asustralia.
- tripleee 18d ago
  I do believe they were talking about Asutralia, not Asustralia. A common misunderstanding. Taiwan might not need to be involved.
  - unixhero 18d ago
    But I want to get to know Raygun and learn her styles.
    - defrost 18d ago
      Global breaking just wasn't ready for interpretive dance ... FWiW, released last month: https://www.theguardian.com/tv-and-radio/2026/sep/01/raygun-breaking-badly-review-netflix-ridiculed-olympic-breakdancer-total-joy https://www.theguardian.com/tv-and-radio/2026/sep/01/raygun-... as part of Untold (2021) https://www.thetvdb.com/series/407414-untold/allseasons/official https://www.thetvdb.com/series/407414-untold/allseasons/offi...

NDlurker 18d ago

I love Australia. Amazing country. Great people. I'd move back in an instant if given the opportunity. As an American, I always felt welcome there, but haven't been there since 2016. It'll be interesting seeing how attitudes have changed when I'm back visiting in 2028.

weakened_malloc 18d ago
ill swap places with you, if you like, lol
- NDlurker 18d ago
  Ok! Why aren't citizenship swaps allowed?
Toslink 18d ago
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marcus_holmes 18d ago
Basically the same. We love seppoes as people [0]. It's just the government we're annoyed at. [0] though if you could learn to moderate your voices in public spaces, that would be great.

jmyeet 18d ago

This and Canada are just kneejerk reactions against the chaos of the Trump administration. While that makes sense, my prediction is that in the short-term it won't amount to much. In the long-term, history books will write about these years as redefining the world order that's existed largely since 1945. As for Canada, nobody really knows what associate membership means. Given that EU freedoms are reciprocal I just don't see this going anywhere. Plus there's been a free trade deal with the EU on the table for a decade that hasn't been ratified. As for redefining the world order, that's what this war of choice in Iran will amount to. In the short-to-medium term it's going to redefine the Gulf security architecture. The refusal to restrain Israel probably means Russia will swallow the eastern chunk of Ukraine they occupy. And of course the big winner in all of this is China who have had to do absolutely nothing. Empires don't die overnight and they die violently. This is going to be bad but I honestly see no way the US can restore its position as the global hegemon. It's influence has peaked. And I don't believe anything will reverse that. So I don't know what this means for Australia. It has operated essentially as an American colonial outpost since the Cold War. The geography was once much more important to cover the sky for receiving satellite communications. Selling raw resources is ultimately untenable for an economy (IMHO) but Australia has gone down the path of turning the entire economy into a massive Ponzi scheme of housing, like almost every other developed nation. When housing is the only logical investment, it dominates capital and lending and productive output falls off a cliff, which is exactly what happened.

YZF 18d ago
We shall see. But Russia's invasion of Ukraine way predates the recent wars in the middle east. It's more like the inability to restrain Russia's aspirations in Ukraine have led to instability in the rest of the world. More generally the failure to sustain a more free and democratic Russia or China is perhaps the source of all the other instabilities which all involve political, military and financial support from the China/Russia axis. I wouldn't write off the US quite yet but it's definitely more of a multi-polar world with the US and China the major powers vs. the brief single polar world that followed the fall of the USSR. Arguably the quietest and most prosperous period ever, the largest number of people worldwide rising up from poverty etc. We're gonna miss it.

Danox 18d ago

Australia and New Zealand should definitely do so. If they haven’t figured it out after a year and 3/4 they never will.

hn_submit 18d ago

I believe this will turn around. The mood is a sign of the times and the general dislike of the man in the White House. But he won't be there forever yet Canada will always be the U.S.' Northern neighbor, biggest trading partner and cultural big brother. Carney is simply looking elsewhere for friends after being insulted by Trump who treats him like a subordinate and not someone of equal standing. He may even be foolish enough to cozy up to China. As for Australia, I don't understand the vibe here. Trump hasn't mentioned Australia becoming a U.S. territory in any speeches I've heard. Again, maybe it's a general dislike for the man and his roughshod policies.

manyatoms 18d ago
Trump isn't going to mess with Australia. Fox News is owned by a guy who grew up in Australia.
rsynnott 18d ago
The trouble is, Pandora's box has been opened. It turns out that the president of the US can act like a crazy post-Soviet-style dictator, and that the mechanisms which are supposed to prevent that are simply not fit for purpose. Even if in 2028 the US elects the most sensible, rule-of-law-oriented president imaginable, allies will still have to look to 2032. Fixing the problem would require constitutional change, which in the US is virtually impossible.
- hn_submit 18d ago
  The powers granted to the U.S. President are meant to be used in times of war or situations that threatens the security of the United States. Trump is using it nilly-willy for just about everything. It will, however, be difficult to come up with a law that would put a stop to this without harming the Executive Branch's effectiveness in a time of need. But so far I'm pretty satisfied how Congress and the judiciary are putting reins on his powers. He recently threatened to halt all trade with Europe over Canada's associate EU membership. There's no way he can do that. Congress would step in.
  - 17d ago

mattoxic 18d ago

Australia is blessed with quite the spineless government at the moment. I doubt very much that they would be doing anything (at all actually) as concrete as forging deeper ties with Europe - at least at the expense of the US. After all, it wasn't so long ago that Australia handed the US $800 million of its citizen's hard-earned for submarines that might not ever get built within an alliance that looks increasingly one-sided.

jsonc 18d ago
Yep, pretty disappointed with our current government, they're not listening at all to the population, just lobbyists and those with $10k for a dinner with the PM. And ON is certainly not the solution either, despite many thinking it is.

ChrisArchitect 18d ago

[dupe] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=49712186 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=49712186

manyatoms 18d ago

This seems like a careful way to send a message to US Congress about what they're enabling.

totetsu 17d ago

To avoid the comming massive risk to human life from climate disruption, I think there needs to be an Australasian / ASEAN open boarder arangement like the schengen area.