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Israeli Minister Threatens Filmmakers' Citizenship over Gaza Documentary
- Markoff 19d agobetter text link https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/c9vgy8d8256go https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/c9vgy8d8256go
- iainmerrick 19d agoYes - this is a very important story, but the "Reuters Connect" page is completely awful. Hey, let's present our story as a series of soundbites over emotive imagery and ominous music, that definitely evokes serious journalism.
- trinsic2 19d agoI know it looks like an effort to deliberately fragment the narrative
- monideas 19d ago[flagged]
- metobehonest 19d agoSo Israel is a "developed world democracy", but criticism shouldn't be allowed and dissenters should be considered enemies?
- monideas 19d ago[flagged]
- metobehonest 19d agoGot it, I was unsure whether you were aligned with the "Israel is a democracy" discourse coming from US senators, Netanyahu, the EU and the like (https://www.gov.il/en/pages/spokestart030717 https://www.gov.il/en/pages/spokestart030717, https://euobserver.com/29231/israel-is-still-functioning-democracy-eu-says/ https://euobserver.com/29231/israel-is-still-functioning-dem...) or if you had fully embraced the de-facto militaristic ethnic supremacist ideology of the state. Your comments on "birth rates" and how western liberalism is decadent (or dare I say, "degenerate"?) make it very clear though.
- monideas 19d ago[flagged]
- metobehonest 19d agoThey actually do. They mean you think there's a "chosen people" that's so special that it is morally correct to exterminate other peoples through military means so that yours may thrive. The terms just express this in a condensed form.
- monideas 19d ago[flagged]
- ceejayoz 19d agoSounds a little fashy. Is it not possible to want to improve one's country?
- monideas 19d ago[flagged]
- ceejayoz 19d ago> Can you explain to me how that’s fascism? "We have lots of babies so it can't be fascism" is a really out-there argument I'm having trouble following. It's like posting "Turtle is purple ice cream 203-B"; I don't follow.
- monideas 19d ago[flagged]
- mrtesthah 19d ago“Social conditioning” does not strictly determine the birth rate of developed nations. For that you must look at economic policy making it financially untenable to build a family. What you conveniently ignore here is Israel’s own economic policy of subsidizing orthodox jewish families, which is the main source of that growth.
- monideas 19d ago[flagged]
- ceejayoz 19d ago> you live in a society which is non-viable I'm not certain "start a war with half the region that gets the other friendlier half of the region's entire economic engine blown up by Iran" counts as viable in the long run.
- 19d ago
- basisword 19d agoThey're both Israeli. Why should they leave their country? The right move is to expose the evils and try to improve it.
- tomlockwood 19d agoShould zionists leave new york because they don't like the mayor?
- monideas 19d agoIf you are Zionist Jew then you should move to Israel, otherwise you’re not actually Zionist.
- ceejayoz 19d agoNow we're advocating ethnic cleansing of Zionist Jews from New York City?
- heyitsmedotjayb 19d agoZionist isn't an ethnicity, similar to how Nazi isn't an ethnicity.
- ceejayoz 19d ago> similar to how Nazi isn't an ethnicity The people super-focused on "Aryan heritage" didn't have an ethnic bent? Huh. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nazi_racial_theories https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nazi_racial_theories
- heyitsmedotjayb 19d agoAryan would be a distinctly different category than Nazi. Similar to how Jew is a distinctly different category than Zionist. Please try to keep up.
- ceejayoz 19d agoWhat would you say the average ethnicity of a Nazi typically was?
- croes 19d agoYou are confusing the current government with Israel. It’s the same as with the USA, the current government isn’t the USA.
- deleted 19d ago[deleted]
- mrtesthah 19d agoNow where have I heard that before? https://time.com/7344931/trump-threatens-to-denaturalize-us-citizens/ https://time.com/7344931/trump-threatens-to-denaturalize-us-... and the OG version of course: https://www.ushmm.org/online/hsv/source_view.php?SourceId=49495 https://www.ushmm.org/online/hsv/source_view.php?SourceId=49...
- jenders 19d ago[flagged]
- aqme28 19d agoThis site is not limited to "tech news." https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html Though to be fair I think this article still might not qualify.
- mrtesthah 19d agoActually it is: >Named for the Hebrew military acronym for collateral damage, the film speaks to 24 unidentified Israeli military and intelligence officers who outlined the AI-powered targeting systems used by the Israeli army to bombard Gaza in the war triggered by the Hamas-led attack on 7 October 2023. https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/c9vgy8d8256go https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/c9vgy8d8256go
- duendefm 19d ago[flagged]
- 2Gkashmiri 19d agoThe classic "democracy" and "freedoms" paradox. Iran for example is accused of silencing critics, when everyone else does so as a "normal thing" but Iran is the boogeyman. I can only imagine the level of propaganda by Israel in trying to downplay their heinous crimes....
- ImJamal 19d agoI'm not defending Israel as the minister is clearly wrong here, but surely silencing critics by killing them (what Iran is accused of) is quite a bit more severe than removing citizenship?
- datsci_est_2015 19d agoFunniest comment I’ve read all day, thanks. Never seen someone make light of a government rendering someone stateless. Especially rich in the context of an apartheid state.
- ImJamal 19d agoAre you saying your own comment is funniest your read all day? If not then I am quite confused because I never made light of anything and made it clear that it was the wrong thing to do. I just think comparing murder and removing citizenship is not a great comparison. If anybody made light of anything it was the person I was responding to. Israel has murdered journalists in Gaza. That would be the better comparison to Iran's actions. I don't think Israel removing citizenship has an equal comparison with anything Iran has done.
- pvaldes 19d agoHow many Journalists were killed by Israel in Gaza in the last years?
- ImJamal 18d agoQuite a few. If that was the comparison I wouldn't have mentioned anything because it would be a similar thing. Comparing murder with removing citizenship is not the same thing. Israel murdering journalists is, but not related to the conversation.
- softwaredoug 19d agoFWIW, Naza appears to be a fairly in depth documentary where Israeli soldiers give detailed accounts on how the Gaza war worked from the inside, including expansive targets, and well known high civilian death toll.
- monideas 19d ago[flagged]
- iainmerrick 18d agoOkay, one viewpoint is that it's broadly true, maybe with some exaggeration by the filmmakers and/or interviewees. It's very understandable that soldiers would want to stay anonymous in that version. I don't think many people would buy your "more logical for them to just go on the record" claim -- in this situation, people are scared! And they have conflicted loyalties as well. They want to blow the whistle, but don't necessarily want to directly accuse their immediate colleagues to their faces. Another viewpoint is that it's partly true but misleading -- the filmmakers and whistleblowers have blown things entirely out of proportion. That sounds entirely possible. But wouldn't the "logical" response then be more transparency, rather than accusations of treason and a witch-hunt for the collaborators? And another viewpoint is that it's all completely fabricated, malicious lies. Possibly an extreme crackdown might be an appropriate response in that case? That seems very counter-productive to me, as an outsider, but again cold logic doesn't always apply. Which of those viewpoints do you find yourself agreeing with? To me, the broadly true one seems most likely from the available evidence; the hiding of evidence and the attempted crackdown support that one too. It also seems like some people genuinely believe (or pretend to themselves) that it's all malicious lies. To me that smacks of sheer paranoia. Understandable after the October 7 attack, sure, but not rational or productive.
- monideas 18d agoMy sense given what I’ve read is that it’s partly true but misleading (and there’s probably some outright lies). But even the idea of “misleading” is very difficult to define because we’re talking about moral judgments about how to conduct war. For example, apparently in the film they recount a NAZA that was done for strikes to assassinate Hamas leaders in Gaza (NAZA is an acronym in Hebrew that means “collateral damage assessment”, these are done before all strikes in order to assess potential civilian casualties). In this particular case, the strike was planned to kill the Hamas leaders in their homes at night which would likely also kill their families, as opposed to some other time to kill them which would have more or less or different civilian casualties. So in my opinion there is no issue with killing Hamas leaders in Gaza in their homes even if their families would also die but this may offend western sensibilities for various reasons including perhaps blanket opposition to killing or military conduct at all. But then again Western sensibilities have produced Western societies which have below replacement birth rates and various other social ills which Israelis cannot even conceive of because those issues do not exist in Israel. Jewish teenagers do not go and shoot up their schools, that is something only Arab terrorists do and the reason they do that is very obvious, as are the ways of preventing that. In the most charitable interpretation, the filmmakers chose to make this film as Western liberals trying to influence the Israeli government to adopt more Western liberal values and approaches to conducting warfare. This is still traitorous conduct since they are aligned with a foreign ideology and interests who seek to do harm against their own state and their own people.
- RobotToaster 19d agoOf course this was flagged to death by hasbara.
- vcryan 19d agoSounds very democratic...
- msarrel 19d agoWho do they think they are? The United States?
- blobbloblob 18d ago[dead]