3 ms·

Free speech absolutist, btw.

by p-o 12d ago

mbmbn 12d ago
Can you point the way where Free Speech is being countered here?
arrowsmith 12d ago
What does proxying someone else's content have to do with free speech?
- Forgeties79 12d ago
  You have to admit, the “free speech” shield-wielding megalomaniac working so hard to keep people from freely accessing info isn’t exactly great optics.
  - freedomben 12d ago
    I'm very much on the side of xcancel and nitter on this one, but I do think it's fair to point out that Twitter is free of monetary charge. It's not free in the sense that you do have to provide some personal information and data to them in exchange for that free account, but it isn't a huge roadblock for most people, however annoying it may be. Now that said, I sure hope Elon will pivot this and make these services unnecessary. I'm not holding my breath though.
    - angoragoats 12d ago
      The phrase "free speech" does not typically mean "free as in beer," rather it means "free as in freedom," so in this case you're conflating the two meanings of "free" in English. The fact that Twitter is login-gated makes it objectively less free as in freedom.
      - freedomben 12d ago
        Indeed, fair point. I've conflated those in my comment above!
      - alt227 11d ago
        Generally we in the western world consider ourselves 'free' citizens. Yet to live this life you need to register your birth, get a social security number, and enroll in education etc. I dont see signing up to twitter any differently to this. You register with an email address and you are granted access. Similarly to registering a birth and being granted access to 'society'.
    - Operyl 12d ago
      The biggest frustration for a lot of people is that their municipalities use Twitter almost exclusively to communicate with their constituents, it _sucks_. I've pleaded and begged my city and county to have some other form of communication, in addition to Twitter/X, to mass distribute information.
      - Forgeties79 12d ago
        Many municipalities have text message alerts these days. I doubt it’s 100% coverage but I bet most of us can live with that or currently do.
        Operyl 12d ago
        My municipality does! Guess what they still don't really use... most of it still ends up on X exclusively.
      - mitxela 11d ago
        Be the change to want to see. Mirror their tweets on cityname.com
    - bakies 12d ago
      right, it's not free, like you said
    - InsideOutSanta 12d ago
      Elon Musk, gratis speech absolutist.
  - immibis2 12d ago
    Optics and logic are two different things. The optics seem to be working out well for him, for some reason.
    - Forgeties79 12d ago
      Sure but my point is the Twitter experience is trash and not required like, say, paying an evil ISP or interacting with Google (for 99.9% of people abandoning and fully dodging Google is incredibly difficult). It’s working out for him because people won’t leave (even though engagement and user numbers are still below pre-acquisition numbers). It only has value because of his acquiring it with his other company. Prior its value was tanked. It’s a crap site that isn’t profitable and serves as a mouthpiece for his politics and whims. You can all walk away. You don’t need it.
      - immibis2 12d ago
        You don't need an ISP or Google either. It's incredibly difficult for some people to leave either, but it's also incredibly difficult for some people to leave Twitter.
        deleted 11d ago
        [deleted]
      - alt227 11d ago
        > You can all walk away. You don’t need it. Except some people still want it, thats the uncomfortable truth that lots of people cant accept. I see lots of comments giving different reasons people think that other people cant leave twitter, but at the end of the day millions of people still like and use it all the time. Thats why its still there.
- angoragoats 12d ago
  Twitter is heavily login-gated, to the point that I can't see Twitter threads at all unless I have an account. I do not wish to make an account. Services like Nitter/XCancel allow me to read those threads, making that speech more free.
  - throwatdem12311 12d ago
    That’s not what free speech is.
    - angoragoats 12d ago
      Yes, it is. It seems self-evident to me that the speech on Twitter is more free when it isn't behind a login wall. How could it not be? If you'd like to provide an actual counter-argument, I'd be happy to consider it.
      - zahlman 12d ago
        > Freedom of speech is a principle that supports the freedom of an individual or a community to articulate their opinions and ideas without fear of retaliation, censorship, or legal sanction. Nobody is being censored by the inability of a third party to act as a parallel distribution channel. Nor does freedom of speech have anything to do with entitlement to an audience. No website infringes upon freedom of speech by having a paywall on UGC, as neither the contributors nor readers are worse off than if the site didn't exist.
        p-o 12d ago
        Nobody is arguing about the legal boundary of Freedom of speech, you're the only one making this argument. We're talking about the quolloquial "free speech", here.
        weberer 12d ago
        Could you give your colloquial definition, because its clearly different than mine.
- HumblyTossed 12d ago
  [flagged]
  - angoragoats 12d ago
    I would argue that when he is talking about "free speech" he is always referring to the more general, non-US-Constitutional meaning of the phrase; i.e. the freedom to say what you want without being censored. So when a discussion about free speech on Twitter comes up, I assume that's the kind of free speech we're discussing. To bring in the the more narrow, first amendment meaning of the term is just a distraction or diversion.
    - applfanboysbgon 12d ago
      You are the only one who brought up that distraction from the fact that he routinely violates the first definition you mentioned.
      - angoragoats 12d ago
        I assumed the parent post was referring to the Constitutional meaning when they said "Yes, we all know what 'free speech' really means and it has nothing to do with X," but if I misunderstood then I apologize!
- zahlman 12d ago
  Can someone please explain to me any actual guidelines-based reason for the parent comment to have been flagged and killed (I vouched for it)?
  - immibis2 12d ago
    The reason is likely not guidelines-based.
  - hitekker 12d ago
    Many feel X, or gating access to X, is fundamentally unjust, superseding the guidelines. Feeling injustice converts the loss into a claim: "I didn't just lose free access, we're owed free access." The GP questioned whether the inconvenience is an injustice. The flags came because that question threatened the claim. Free speech talk decorates a claim that, imo, doesn't really have much purchase.
immibis2 12d ago
"Nothing can shut down open source" - Elon Musk, LITERALLY TODAY: https://nitter.click/elonmusk/status/2099026767357120523 https://nitter.click/elonmusk/status/2099026767357120523 He speaks out both sides of his mouth.
- sigmarule 11d ago
  Elsewhere as well.
bad_username 11d ago
"Freedom of speech is not freedom from consequences", as some people like to say

Free speech absolutist, btw.

by p-o 12d ago

Free speech absolutist, btw.

mbmbn 12d ago

Can you point the way where Free Speech is being countered here?

arrowsmith 12d ago

What does proxying someone else's content have to do with free speech?

Forgeties79 12d ago
You have to admit, the “free speech” shield-wielding megalomaniac working so hard to keep people from freely accessing info isn’t exactly great optics.
- freedomben 12d ago
  I'm very much on the side of xcancel and nitter on this one, but I do think it's fair to point out that Twitter is free of monetary charge. It's not free in the sense that you do have to provide some personal information and data to them in exchange for that free account, but it isn't a huge roadblock for most people, however annoying it may be. Now that said, I sure hope Elon will pivot this and make these services unnecessary. I'm not holding my breath though.
  - angoragoats 12d ago
    The phrase "free speech" does not typically mean "free as in beer," rather it means "free as in freedom," so in this case you're conflating the two meanings of "free" in English. The fact that Twitter is login-gated makes it objectively less free as in freedom.
    - freedomben 12d ago
      Indeed, fair point. I've conflated those in my comment above!
    - alt227 11d ago
      Generally we in the western world consider ourselves 'free' citizens. Yet to live this life you need to register your birth, get a social security number, and enroll in education etc. I dont see signing up to twitter any differently to this. You register with an email address and you are granted access. Similarly to registering a birth and being granted access to 'society'.
  - Operyl 12d ago
    The biggest frustration for a lot of people is that their municipalities use Twitter almost exclusively to communicate with their constituents, it _sucks_. I've pleaded and begged my city and county to have some other form of communication, in addition to Twitter/X, to mass distribute information.
    - Forgeties79 12d ago
      Many municipalities have text message alerts these days. I doubt it’s 100% coverage but I bet most of us can live with that or currently do.
      - Operyl 12d ago
        My municipality does! Guess what they still don't really use... most of it still ends up on X exclusively.
    - mitxela 11d ago
      Be the change to want to see. Mirror their tweets on cityname.com
  - bakies 12d ago
    right, it's not free, like you said
  - InsideOutSanta 12d ago
    Elon Musk, gratis speech absolutist.
- immibis2 12d ago
  Optics and logic are two different things. The optics seem to be working out well for him, for some reason.
  - Forgeties79 12d ago
    Sure but my point is the Twitter experience is trash and not required like, say, paying an evil ISP or interacting with Google (for 99.9% of people abandoning and fully dodging Google is incredibly difficult). It’s working out for him because people won’t leave (even though engagement and user numbers are still below pre-acquisition numbers). It only has value because of his acquiring it with his other company. Prior its value was tanked. It’s a crap site that isn’t profitable and serves as a mouthpiece for his politics and whims. You can all walk away. You don’t need it.
    - immibis2 12d ago
      You don't need an ISP or Google either. It's incredibly difficult for some people to leave either, but it's also incredibly difficult for some people to leave Twitter.
      - deleted 11d ago
        [deleted]
    - alt227 11d ago
      > You can all walk away. You don’t need it. Except some people still want it, thats the uncomfortable truth that lots of people cant accept. I see lots of comments giving different reasons people think that other people cant leave twitter, but at the end of the day millions of people still like and use it all the time. Thats why its still there.
angoragoats 12d ago
Twitter is heavily login-gated, to the point that I can't see Twitter threads at all unless I have an account. I do not wish to make an account. Services like Nitter/XCancel allow me to read those threads, making that speech more free.
- throwatdem12311 12d ago
  That’s not what free speech is.
  - angoragoats 12d ago
    Yes, it is. It seems self-evident to me that the speech on Twitter is more free when it isn't behind a login wall. How could it not be? If you'd like to provide an actual counter-argument, I'd be happy to consider it.
    - zahlman 12d ago
      > Freedom of speech is a principle that supports the freedom of an individual or a community to articulate their opinions and ideas without fear of retaliation, censorship, or legal sanction. Nobody is being censored by the inability of a third party to act as a parallel distribution channel. Nor does freedom of speech have anything to do with entitlement to an audience. No website infringes upon freedom of speech by having a paywall on UGC, as neither the contributors nor readers are worse off than if the site didn't exist.
      - p-o 12d ago
        Nobody is arguing about the legal boundary of Freedom of speech, you're the only one making this argument. We're talking about the quolloquial "free speech", here.
        weberer 12d ago
        Could you give your colloquial definition, because its clearly different than mine.
HumblyTossed 12d ago
[flagged]
- angoragoats 12d ago
  I would argue that when he is talking about "free speech" he is always referring to the more general, non-US-Constitutional meaning of the phrase; i.e. the freedom to say what you want without being censored. So when a discussion about free speech on Twitter comes up, I assume that's the kind of free speech we're discussing. To bring in the the more narrow, first amendment meaning of the term is just a distraction or diversion.
  - applfanboysbgon 12d ago
    You are the only one who brought up that distraction from the fact that he routinely violates the first definition you mentioned.
    - angoragoats 12d ago
      I assumed the parent post was referring to the Constitutional meaning when they said "Yes, we all know what 'free speech' really means and it has nothing to do with X," but if I misunderstood then I apologize!
zahlman 12d ago
Can someone please explain to me any actual guidelines-based reason for the parent comment to have been flagged and killed (I vouched for it)?
- immibis2 12d ago
  The reason is likely not guidelines-based.
- hitekker 12d ago
  Many feel X, or gating access to X, is fundamentally unjust, superseding the guidelines. Feeling injustice converts the loss into a claim: "I didn't just lose free access, we're owed free access." The GP questioned whether the inconvenience is an injustice. The flags came because that question threatened the claim. Free speech talk decorates a claim that, imo, doesn't really have much purchase.

immibis2 12d ago

"Nothing can shut down open source" - Elon Musk, LITERALLY TODAY: https://nitter.click/elonmusk/status/2099026767357120523 https://nitter.click/elonmusk/status/2099026767357120523 He speaks out both sides of his mouth.

sigmarule 11d ago
Elsewhere as well.

bad_username 11d ago

"Freedom of speech is not freedom from consequences", as some people like to say