4 ms·

Japan is so far ahead the rest of the world for quality and innovative heat pumps. Quiet, robust, high efficiency in cold climates. I wish they could bring the

by boringg 23d ago

Japan is so far ahead the rest of the world for quality and innovative heat pumps. Quiet, robust, high efficiency in cold climates. I wish they could bring the prices down though. I worry in 15 years we will all have crapily made Chinese heat pumps for a fraction of the cost. Noisy, not robust, copying competitor designs not innovating, lower efficiency but easily replaceable. Theres probably an analogy here with software talent and AI but its too early to do that.

deleted 23d ago
[deleted]
PaulHoule 23d ago
Not everything from China is crap. I'm a big fan of Chinese lenses. I reach for Japanese and German lenses when I want to take the highest quality photographs that look like the photographs all the other photographers take. When I want to take a picture like you've never seen before I reach for https://www.venuslens.net/product/laowa-9mm-f-5-6-ff-rl/?srsltid=AfmBOoppl0TfZiNVsfcMVy6cFS8xNhW0P7EmU4mgd2vanELacSrGxUmj https://www.venuslens.net/product/laowa-9mm-f-5-6-ff-rl/?srs... or https://findingrange.com/2022/01/14/7artisans-photoelectric-50mm-f0-95-lens-review/ https://findingrange.com/2022/01/14/7artisans-photoelectric-... It's true a $3000 lens from Sony has better optical quality than a $300 lens from China, like take a picture of a starry sky and you will see light rays bounce around a lot more inside the Chinese lens. But in terms of value and innovation Chinese lenses have a place, and many Chinese manufacturers are looking for this kind of opportunity for whatever they make.
- post_break 23d ago
  China figured out how to make thermal imaging sensors as well. Why would you buy a $4,000 Flir with less resolution when you can get a $400 Topdon. What's funny is now it appears Flir has cut their prices dramatically to compete.
- 27183 23d ago
  I have Haier Arctic heat pumps that are made in China. They've been great so far. I've also worked with suppliers in Shenzhen for one-off custom electronic devices that would put western companies to shame in their communication, efficiency, turnaround time, cost, and engineering quality. The new transmission I just put in my truck was made in China too.
- pbkompasz 23d ago
  > But in terms of value and innovation Chinese lenses have a place What's the innovation?
  - maxglute 23d ago
    Making goods, cheap and accessible at scale is the innovation.
- boringg 23d ago
  I never said that Chinese goods are crap. They seem to reside in the higher middle for HVAC. My argument is that if your business is a copy cat and the produce at scale - we cull the talent and model to build truly innovative products - since there isn't funding the innovation.
pbkompasz 23d ago
This China craze won't last long. The Chinese PV export market crashed couple months ago(down 30% YoY), and it seems like their domestic auto market crashed too(down ~25% YoY since August).
- pbhjpbhj 23d ago
  ChatGPT feels me Q1 2026 that Chinese PV exports were up 15% on Q1 2025 (cell exports up 64%). What happened since then?
- ZeroGravitas 23d ago
  The PV stuff was just pull forward to beat a subsidy change. As for cars, sales of ICE were down 40℅, BEV grew 1.7℅
WarmWash 23d ago
You can't be the worlds premier manufacturer for 30 years and not get really damn good at making stuff
- floatrock 23d ago
  Case in point: EV's. Inferior quality maybe was accurate 5 years ago. Now they're taking over the global automotive market. Only thing preventing them from pulling another Japan-in-the-90s against the US auto market is americans' love of oversized trucks, tariffs, and import controls. If we had a true market economy, we'd see more BYD's than Teslas (and in most global markets that's already the case). Yes, you can still get cheap Chineesium crap off Amazon for pennies on the competitor's dollar, but it's no longer necessarily true that Chinese = inferior.
wslh 23d ago
> crapily made Chinese heat pumps for a fraction of the cost China is now at a stage of economic development where it can manufacture products across the entire quality spectrum. Japan went through a somewhat similar transition: in the 1960s and 70s.
maxglute 23d ago
PRC's been white labelling / JV components for tier1 HVAC brands for 15 years now, they're fine quality/lifespan wise. Flagship PRC heatpump already caught up to JP in HSPF2 @ ~11 (GREE). Either way, more cheap commoditized heat pump = more installations = more aggregate global efficiency - every $ spend on JP premium is inefficient allocation of resources in terms of maximizing global energy savings. Arguably, PRC price / value engineer is their innovation and by far more MORE important than vs minute efficiency differences. Ultimately it's about TCO and global adoption, if JP can't bring their prices down, if they can't fractionalize cost, then they're doing more harm than good for net transition - there's better things to with that 30-50% premium.
- boringg 23d ago
  Oh I totally get their game - and its a smart one. Flood the market, own the distribution and servicing and you win the game. I feel like the GREE product is tier 2 but most people don't care. Its not comparable to the well made products - they aren't junk but they aren't quality either. PRC seems to have targeted the broad market - smart move. Id argue that the PRC price / value engineer is only viable because of the development that the innovations in heat pumps have managed to provide. Can't have one without the other. Though once price / value owns the market - innovation dies.
  - maxglute 23d ago
    Midea/GMCC, Gree spend ~5% of revenue on R&D like rest of industry, except they're larger vs JP companies (multiple size of related JP conglomerates & magnitudes larger than JP niche thermal management companies). Also more directly focused on thermal management/hvac (i.e. Gree doesn't have defense/space like Mitsubishi to split R&D). Then factor in PRC PPP, PRC simply spending magnitudes more on R&D and will continue to (involute vs domestic competition). Hence most of the tier1 western suppliers are now using white labelled / rebadged components (compressors etc) that are designed by PRC manufactures. PRC just doing innovating AND value engineering - they have both. IMO with respect to energy efficiency tech is one of those "any idiot can build a bridge that stands, but it takes an engineer to build a bridge that barely stands". The primary metric for "quality" of energy transition products is efficiency / $, and in that JP fails hard. Only PRC is scaling efficiency / $ effectively, which has much greater value than JP trying to push top end, because frankly that's all they can do. Which has it's economic rational, i.e. TOC in wealthy countries where installation/labour expensive, but its still net, lower "quality" innovation because $ spend on JP premium nets less aggregate efficiency.
matwood 23d ago
I live in the EU and have a heat pump clothes dryer. It takes a little longer than hot air, but it doesn't heat up as much and destroy clothes. It also doesn't take special voltage/plug. Any regular plug will work. All it needs is a drain - no waste heat vent required. Oh, and it's super quiet.
- throwaway2037 22d ago
  This sounds interesting. What make/model?
  - matwood 22d ago
    It’s one of the bigger LGs.
    - bschwindHN 22d ago
      How many microphones does it have on it?
    - throwaway2037 20d ago
      Cool, I found something here: https://www.lg.com/us/washers-dryers/lg-dlhc4002b-electric-dryer https://www.lg.com/us/washers-dryers/lg-dlhc4002b-electric-d... LG claims: <<65% to 80% energy savings>> Even if only 50%, that is impressive! That sounds like a pretty good compromise for a slightly longer drying time. The most surprising part to me: The design is "ventless". I cannot imagine how that is possible for a modern dryer. When I was a kid, there was always an outlet from the house that pumped out waste heat from the clothes dryer. What a waste!
      - matwood 20d ago
        Yep. It’s pretty wild. And the clothes are not exposed to crazy high heat. If I ever go back to the US, I hope I can find one of these there.
        19d ago
j9feng 23d ago
[dead]
turtlebits 23d ago
Chinese brands have all but caught up, they're within a few percentage points in performance, but 3-4x cheaper. The additional cost barrier being you can't self install or Mitsubishi or get any warranty on a self install, which means you'll likely pay 5-10x when you include install.
mitthrowaway2 22d ago
They don't cost that much within Japan. No idea why it's so hard to buy them elsewhere, while Korean models are relatively commonplace.
lostlogin 22d ago
I don’t know a lot about heat pumps, but one inefficiency that irritates me is that we are doing opposite things in isolation frequently. I want to cool the house (so have waste heat) but also want to warm my water, so make heat. In winter I warm my house, except for the fridge where it’s trying to cool its contents. If there was any overlap or coordination it would surely be possible to have less hardware, working smarter and using less power.

by boringg 23d ago

deleted 23d ago

[deleted]

PaulHoule 23d ago

Not everything from China is crap. I'm a big fan of Chinese lenses. I reach for Japanese and German lenses when I want to take the highest quality photographs that look like the photographs all the other photographers take. When I want to take a picture like you've never seen before I reach for https://www.venuslens.net/product/laowa-9mm-f-5-6-ff-rl/?srsltid=AfmBOoppl0TfZiNVsfcMVy6cFS8xNhW0P7EmU4mgd2vanELacSrGxUmj https://www.venuslens.net/product/laowa-9mm-f-5-6-ff-rl/?srs... or https://findingrange.com/2022/01/14/7artisans-photoelectric-50mm-f0-95-lens-review/ https://findingrange.com/2022/01/14/7artisans-photoelectric-... It's true a $3000 lens from Sony has better optical quality than a $300 lens from China, like take a picture of a starry sky and you will see light rays bounce around a lot more inside the Chinese lens. But in terms of value and innovation Chinese lenses have a place, and many Chinese manufacturers are looking for this kind of opportunity for whatever they make.

post_break 23d ago
China figured out how to make thermal imaging sensors as well. Why would you buy a $4,000 Flir with less resolution when you can get a $400 Topdon. What's funny is now it appears Flir has cut their prices dramatically to compete.
27183 23d ago
I have Haier Arctic heat pumps that are made in China. They've been great so far. I've also worked with suppliers in Shenzhen for one-off custom electronic devices that would put western companies to shame in their communication, efficiency, turnaround time, cost, and engineering quality. The new transmission I just put in my truck was made in China too.
pbkompasz 23d ago
> But in terms of value and innovation Chinese lenses have a place What's the innovation?
- maxglute 23d ago
  Making goods, cheap and accessible at scale is the innovation.
boringg 23d ago
I never said that Chinese goods are crap. They seem to reside in the higher middle for HVAC. My argument is that if your business is a copy cat and the produce at scale - we cull the talent and model to build truly innovative products - since there isn't funding the innovation.

pbkompasz 23d ago

This China craze won't last long. The Chinese PV export market crashed couple months ago(down 30% YoY), and it seems like their domestic auto market crashed too(down ~25% YoY since August).

pbhjpbhj 23d ago
ChatGPT feels me Q1 2026 that Chinese PV exports were up 15% on Q1 2025 (cell exports up 64%). What happened since then?
ZeroGravitas 23d ago
The PV stuff was just pull forward to beat a subsidy change. As for cars, sales of ICE were down 40℅, BEV grew 1.7℅

WarmWash 23d ago

You can't be the worlds premier manufacturer for 30 years and not get really damn good at making stuff

floatrock 23d ago
Case in point: EV's. Inferior quality maybe was accurate 5 years ago. Now they're taking over the global automotive market. Only thing preventing them from pulling another Japan-in-the-90s against the US auto market is americans' love of oversized trucks, tariffs, and import controls. If we had a true market economy, we'd see more BYD's than Teslas (and in most global markets that's already the case). Yes, you can still get cheap Chineesium crap off Amazon for pennies on the competitor's dollar, but it's no longer necessarily true that Chinese = inferior.

wslh 23d ago

> crapily made Chinese heat pumps for a fraction of the cost China is now at a stage of economic development where it can manufacture products across the entire quality spectrum. Japan went through a somewhat similar transition: in the 1960s and 70s.

maxglute 23d ago

PRC's been white labelling / JV components for tier1 HVAC brands for 15 years now, they're fine quality/lifespan wise. Flagship PRC heatpump already caught up to JP in HSPF2 @ ~11 (GREE). Either way, more cheap commoditized heat pump = more installations = more aggregate global efficiency - every $ spend on JP premium is inefficient allocation of resources in terms of maximizing global energy savings. Arguably, PRC price / value engineer is their innovation and by far more MORE important than vs minute efficiency differences. Ultimately it's about TCO and global adoption, if JP can't bring their prices down, if they can't fractionalize cost, then they're doing more harm than good for net transition - there's better things to with that 30-50% premium.

boringg 23d ago
Oh I totally get their game - and its a smart one. Flood the market, own the distribution and servicing and you win the game. I feel like the GREE product is tier 2 but most people don't care. Its not comparable to the well made products - they aren't junk but they aren't quality either. PRC seems to have targeted the broad market - smart move. Id argue that the PRC price / value engineer is only viable because of the development that the innovations in heat pumps have managed to provide. Can't have one without the other. Though once price / value owns the market - innovation dies.
- maxglute 23d ago
  Midea/GMCC, Gree spend ~5% of revenue on R&D like rest of industry, except they're larger vs JP companies (multiple size of related JP conglomerates & magnitudes larger than JP niche thermal management companies). Also more directly focused on thermal management/hvac (i.e. Gree doesn't have defense/space like Mitsubishi to split R&D). Then factor in PRC PPP, PRC simply spending magnitudes more on R&D and will continue to (involute vs domestic competition). Hence most of the tier1 western suppliers are now using white labelled / rebadged components (compressors etc) that are designed by PRC manufactures. PRC just doing innovating AND value engineering - they have both. IMO with respect to energy efficiency tech is one of those "any idiot can build a bridge that stands, but it takes an engineer to build a bridge that barely stands". The primary metric for "quality" of energy transition products is efficiency / $, and in that JP fails hard. Only PRC is scaling efficiency / $ effectively, which has much greater value than JP trying to push top end, because frankly that's all they can do. Which has it's economic rational, i.e. TOC in wealthy countries where installation/labour expensive, but its still net, lower "quality" innovation because $ spend on JP premium nets less aggregate efficiency.

matwood 23d ago

I live in the EU and have a heat pump clothes dryer. It takes a little longer than hot air, but it doesn't heat up as much and destroy clothes. It also doesn't take special voltage/plug. Any regular plug will work. All it needs is a drain - no waste heat vent required. Oh, and it's super quiet.

throwaway2037 22d ago
This sounds interesting. What make/model?
- matwood 22d ago
  It’s one of the bigger LGs.
  - bschwindHN 22d ago
    How many microphones does it have on it?
  - throwaway2037 20d ago
    Cool, I found something here: https://www.lg.com/us/washers-dryers/lg-dlhc4002b-electric-dryer https://www.lg.com/us/washers-dryers/lg-dlhc4002b-electric-d... LG claims: <<65% to 80% energy savings>> Even if only 50%, that is impressive! That sounds like a pretty good compromise for a slightly longer drying time. The most surprising part to me: The design is "ventless". I cannot imagine how that is possible for a modern dryer. When I was a kid, there was always an outlet from the house that pumped out waste heat from the clothes dryer. What a waste!
    - matwood 20d ago
      Yep. It’s pretty wild. And the clothes are not exposed to crazy high heat. If I ever go back to the US, I hope I can find one of these there.
      - 19d ago

j9feng 23d ago

[dead]

turtlebits 23d ago

Chinese brands have all but caught up, they're within a few percentage points in performance, but 3-4x cheaper. The additional cost barrier being you can't self install or Mitsubishi or get any warranty on a self install, which means you'll likely pay 5-10x when you include install.

mitthrowaway2 22d ago

They don't cost that much within Japan. No idea why it's so hard to buy them elsewhere, while Korean models are relatively commonplace.

lostlogin 22d ago

I don’t know a lot about heat pumps, but one inefficiency that irritates me is that we are doing opposite things in isolation frequently. I want to cool the house (so have waste heat) but also want to warm my water, so make heat. In winter I warm my house, except for the fridge where it’s trying to cool its contents. If there was any overlap or coordination it would surely be possible to have less hardware, working smarter and using less power.