5 ms·

How can you possible say this sort of thing in context of what looks like a millenium prize being solved. I swear there's nobody blinder than those who won't s

How can you possible say this sort of thing in context of what looks like a millenium prize being solved. I swear there's nobody blinder than those who won't see.

deleted 1mo ago
[deleted]
samrus 1mo ago
You have to look at the incentives
- FallCheeta7373 1mo ago
  Incentives are one thing, even adjusting for them it's huge, and I don't understand this incentive play for only openai, academics have perverse incentives too, to overreport, overclaim, publication bias etc why are we scrutinizing AI industry to such high degree when they have demonstrated capability and often times are off by a model release at worst.
- altcognito 1mo ago
  I swear to god, people would look at the successes of Xerox palo alto and just shrug and say - "yeah, but I mean, this is all marketing"
  - piloto_ciego 1mo ago
    This is what I keep saying, and it feels like I'm taking crazy pills here! Is nobody else astounded by this?
    - alsetmusic 1mo ago
      The thing only nerds know about that wasn’t in the news every day? Not the same thing.
  - Shank 1mo ago
    Xerox is incidentally a really good example, because precisely nobody ended up using the desktop experience Xerox made. They ended up using the desktop experience that Microsoft and Apple made and shipped while Xerox the actual company faded and memory of those original parc research teams faded into obscurity.
- aurareturn 1mo ago
  A working Lean proof doesn't care what the incentives are.
medler 1mo ago
Because it seems like most of the work may have been done by human mathematicians and cribbed by OpenAI at the last minute
- dekhn 1mo ago
  We don't have enough accurate knowledge to say that, and it doesn't seem to be the case at all.
  - timr 1mo ago
    > We don't have enough accurate knowledge to say that, and it doesn't seem to be the case at all. The first part of your sentence literally contradicts the second part: "we don't have enough knowledge to know, but I know the opposite".
    - dekhn 1mo ago
      Only if you interpret statements as being binary logic. "seem to be" carries semantic meaning here: I'm stating my interpretation of the situation based on data we have available (which is limited) and my prior. Put another way: "We can't say that for sure, but my money is on it not being a simple case of intellectual property theft"
      - classified 1mo ago
        > not being a simple case of intellectual property theft No, it's an aggravated case, since it's the same way they got all of their training data in the first place.
        noir_lord 1mo ago
        Imagine if they broke it down to each distinct source, that'd be several billion cases of copyright infringement (though it's going to be determined by what courts think and that often comes down to "who can afford the best lawyers" in practice if not intent). Apparently if I use lib-gen, that's copyright infringement and I'm exposed to legal risk but it seems fine to download all of it if your intent is "train an AI" so far.
tomalbrc 1mo ago
I. fucking. Wonder. Why. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=49607239 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=49607239
AlexCoventry 1mo ago
I don't think we should assume a millenium puzzle has been solved, yet. Astra showed impressive capacity for cheating when it was faced with impossible cybersecurity challenges. It seems equally plausible at this stage that it's found a bug in Lean.
munksbeer 1mo ago
People will cling to views as long as they possibly can, despite evidence slapping them in the face. Eventually it won't matter. Arguments over whether LLMs are "truly" intelligent are going to be a matter of philosophy, and look a little silly.
- piloto_ciego 1mo ago
  It literally reminds me of climate denialism. “Line go up! That is bad! Planet might become unsafe for human life.” “Nuh uhh! Malankovich cycles and humans are a drop in the bucket! Krakatoa! See!” “All of California is on fire!” “Haha, stupid shrill liberals! Go rake your woke forests! Drill baby drill!” “Are you kidding?! Look at this graph.” “That’s just propaganda from the elites of the Build-a-bear group!” “Do we even live in the same universe?” “And 5g causes COVID!” “Oh, I guess we’re don’t.”
jibal 1mo ago
How? By being knowledgeable, intelligent, and intellectually honest.

How can you possible say this sort of thing in context of what looks like a millenium prize being solved. I swear there's nobody blinder than those who won't see.

deleted 1mo ago

[deleted]

samrus 1mo ago

You have to look at the incentives

FallCheeta7373 1mo ago
Incentives are one thing, even adjusting for them it's huge, and I don't understand this incentive play for only openai, academics have perverse incentives too, to overreport, overclaim, publication bias etc why are we scrutinizing AI industry to such high degree when they have demonstrated capability and often times are off by a model release at worst.
altcognito 1mo ago
I swear to god, people would look at the successes of Xerox palo alto and just shrug and say - "yeah, but I mean, this is all marketing"
- piloto_ciego 1mo ago
  This is what I keep saying, and it feels like I'm taking crazy pills here! Is nobody else astounded by this?
  - alsetmusic 1mo ago
    The thing only nerds know about that wasn’t in the news every day? Not the same thing.
- Shank 1mo ago
  Xerox is incidentally a really good example, because precisely nobody ended up using the desktop experience Xerox made. They ended up using the desktop experience that Microsoft and Apple made and shipped while Xerox the actual company faded and memory of those original parc research teams faded into obscurity.
aurareturn 1mo ago
A working Lean proof doesn't care what the incentives are.

medler 1mo ago

Because it seems like most of the work may have been done by human mathematicians and cribbed by OpenAI at the last minute

dekhn 1mo ago
We don't have enough accurate knowledge to say that, and it doesn't seem to be the case at all.
- timr 1mo ago
  > We don't have enough accurate knowledge to say that, and it doesn't seem to be the case at all. The first part of your sentence literally contradicts the second part: "we don't have enough knowledge to know, but I know the opposite".
  - dekhn 1mo ago
    Only if you interpret statements as being binary logic. "seem to be" carries semantic meaning here: I'm stating my interpretation of the situation based on data we have available (which is limited) and my prior. Put another way: "We can't say that for sure, but my money is on it not being a simple case of intellectual property theft"
    - classified 1mo ago
      > not being a simple case of intellectual property theft No, it's an aggravated case, since it's the same way they got all of their training data in the first place.
      - noir_lord 1mo ago
        Imagine if they broke it down to each distinct source, that'd be several billion cases of copyright infringement (though it's going to be determined by what courts think and that often comes down to "who can afford the best lawyers" in practice if not intent). Apparently if I use lib-gen, that's copyright infringement and I'm exposed to legal risk but it seems fine to download all of it if your intent is "train an AI" so far.

tomalbrc 1mo ago

I. fucking. Wonder. Why. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=49607239 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=49607239

AlexCoventry 1mo ago

I don't think we should assume a millenium puzzle has been solved, yet. Astra showed impressive capacity for cheating when it was faced with impossible cybersecurity challenges. It seems equally plausible at this stage that it's found a bug in Lean.

munksbeer 1mo ago

People will cling to views as long as they possibly can, despite evidence slapping them in the face. Eventually it won't matter. Arguments over whether LLMs are "truly" intelligent are going to be a matter of philosophy, and look a little silly.

piloto_ciego 1mo ago
It literally reminds me of climate denialism. “Line go up! That is bad! Planet might become unsafe for human life.” “Nuh uhh! Malankovich cycles and humans are a drop in the bucket! Krakatoa! See!” “All of California is on fire!” “Haha, stupid shrill liberals! Go rake your woke forests! Drill baby drill!” “Are you kidding?! Look at this graph.” “That’s just propaganda from the elites of the Build-a-bear group!” “Do we even live in the same universe?” “And 5g causes COVID!” “Oh, I guess we’re don’t.”

jibal 1mo ago

How? By being knowledgeable, intelligent, and intellectually honest.