7 ms·

Finder is so frustrating and has been since day one

138 points by maltch 26d ago

fl0id 26d ago
So it's like fancy "last used" in finder?
- forsalebypwner 25d ago
  plus a subscription!
LeBit 26d ago
Water is wet. Finder is by far the worst file manager ever created.
- BugsJustFindMe 26d ago
  Except for all the other ones.
- flyingshelf 26d ago
  You didn't read past the title.
deleted 26d ago
[deleted]
davidee 26d ago
Finder is indeed frustrating. "Recent" seems like an attempt to fix this without the need to use some giant camera roll? The (hard) problem is that almost every finder alternative/add-on I've tried is someone else's ideal workflow that still doesn't sit well with me. I find KDE's Dolphin similarly frustrating - for very similar reasons. Both work marginally better (for me) when used in concert with the quick-find tools like Alfred (or Spotlight) and KRunner. None of these are perfect. Showerthought: maybe the "find files" interfaces aren't the worst offenders; maybe it's the "place files" workflows that are problematic and we're trying to solve the wrong problem?
- bahmboo 26d ago
  If only recent actually worked. I see no rhyme or reason why something gets in recent. I guess finder has to be involved. So often I am working with files between apps, saving and opening and such and the files never appear in recent which defeats the purpose for me. And then we have the spotlight deamon processes which seem to exist only to burn earth's precious resources. But when it works it works great. ymmv
- maltch 26d ago
  [dead]
Lt_Riza_Hawkeye 26d ago
Finder is frustrating but this guy is just complaining about the fact that he's unable to organize his own files into directories in a way that lets him find them later. He then calls himself a power user. Finder even has tags to help with this, which is more than most operating systems get
- maltch 26d ago
  So true, so true. Every time I think I've got my structure set up properly, I then do something in haste, and can't find it later. Power user and file manager are two totally different things.
  - rbanffy 26d ago
    Not all data fits neatly into a hierarchy of boxes. But, if the person doesn’t know where the file is, Finder has a “Recent” virtual folder right a the top that’ll list all files the person worked on most recent on the top. I often use it to get to screenshots. There’s also a lot of basic operations that are there since the 1990s any power user would know.
- greekrich92 26d ago
  Finder is terrible. Not sure why it's worth defending to the point of attacking someone who simpy made something which fills its gaps.
- GiorgioG 26d ago
  He’s complaining…because he sells a solution to this problem. I hated Finder when I switched to Mac back in 2007. So much so I bought PathFinder. One thing that pissed me off and still does, is when I copy over a folder with the same name, it doesn’t merge the contents, it deletes everything in the existing folder. That’s not what I expected as a Windows user and it still seems like the wrong behavior almost 20 years later. I no longer use PathFinder, it had its own problems and bugs…but in general I find Finder pretty lacking.
  - zitterbewegung 26d ago
iwontberude 26d ago
[dead]
userbinator 26d ago
Thinly veiled marketing post. I've had to use Finder, and it's definitely frustrating in a "Think Different" sort of way, but this article doesn't actually mention why beyond vague statements. Here's a concrete one: Enter enters rename mode.
- maltch 26d ago
  It's my app, no veil intended. It pulls all the drives, folders into one stream . So it doesn't matter where a file is located. Then it reads what is inside so you can type in what you remember.
- mikestew 26d ago
  Here's a concrete one: Enter enters rename mode. I can make the apologetics for just about anything in macOS. After over 20 years of using OS X/macOS, I still can't make the case for this one. Imagine a button has focus, you hit Enter, and it allows you to change the text on the button instead of executing the code behind button.click(). That behavior is just as dumb if a file has focus in Finder.
  - tpmoney 26d ago
    Aside from “it’s historically always done that”, I’d argue that because you use arrow keys to navigate around the finder (left, right, up, down to select, CMD-up to go up a directory, it only makes sense that CMD-down would open a directory (or file/application). And within that context it makes more sense than “enter”.
  - rufo 26d ago
    Because, as one of the original GUIs, when they conceived of how the Macintosh worked, you used the command keys to perform actions on files, and you could rename the file just by typing. Cmd-O was the shortcut for opening files, which makes sense for obvious reasons. When they released the Macintosh to the world, Andy Hertzfeld realized that people were renaming items in the Finder by accident; so he added the "return" key (already used to confirm actions) as an "arming" step[1]. Now, one might ask: wouldn't that interrupt people navigating via the keyboard? No, because the original Macintosh didn't have arrow keys on the keyboard. This was an intentional choice—or, perhaps, mandate from Jobs—as a way to get users to use the mouse as their primary input device, and to force developers to create mouse-driven interfaces. With no arrow keys, no typeahead search implemented, and a clean slate for designing an interface, I'm guessing using Return to open a file wasn't a strong consideration at the time. Why wasn't it changed? Because Mac OS X was made for Mac users, and we all have muscle memory dating back decades :P [1]: https://www.folklore.org/A_Floppy_named_lsadkfjalhkjh.html https://www.folklore.org/A_Floppy_named_lsadkfjalhkjh.html
arjie 26d ago
In the end, it turns out for me that the classic explorer Tree View is the most intuitive. I know where things are as a sub-tree system. I get that hard links etc. complicate this and perhaps there are smart folders etc which do not fit this model well but I find I frequently want to “Go Up” in the hierarchy and this requires an uncomfortable shortcut on a Macbook (arrow key) or a menu button rather than a toolbar icon. But these are complaints. The right answer is to see if I can build a file explorer for MacOS that behaves in the fashion I desire.
- simondotau 26d ago
  Once I got used to column view, I miss it on other operating systems. I don't feel like there's anything I can't do with two Finder windows in column view. And for everything else there's the terminal.
  - arjie 26d ago
    For the main pane? I used to have Windows Explorer with the column view in the main pane and the tree view on the left pane and it was perfect. I don't really mind Nautilus with the breadcrumbs on the top and columns in the main pane. But I think simply going up and down in a Finder window is quite hard unless you navigated there manually, but I'm usually in finder because of `open ~/Folder/Path` and so I end up manually going Cmd-G and typing my path in because it's too hard to navigate otherwise.
  - andrekandre 26d ago
    column view is the one saving grace of finder; the rest is best left untouched
mosura 26d ago
The problem with Finder is historic. The classic Mac finder was a work of art, if you are the sort of person that arranges things spatially, but most programmers are not. Hence NeXT created something else which got merged back incoherently into what became OSX. The Risc OS filer remains king, largely because managing windows on Risc OS is much more tolerable.
- flyingshelf 26d ago
  You didn't read past the title.
  - mosura 26d ago
    You don’t understand words?
flyingshelf 26d ago
I think you're gonna lose a lot of comments here to the "Finder" word here. The problem is not the Finder but directories, which exist on all operating systems. With that aside, this is a great idea for most files. Of course my images are still in folders with the projects they belong to, but my life photos are in one stream. Files, contacts, a lot of data would benefit greatly from this visualization. As for people with 1000 files on their desktop, who cares, they are as good as hoarders and they get what it comes to them. Discipline helps both in the real and in the digital world.
- maltch 26d ago
  If you have the time to be focused on folder hierarchy and organization, great. Most of the people I help don't, and I built this for them. In building it, I learned that organizing files wastes much more time than you think. Finding files is all anyone actually needs.
  - flyingshelf 26d ago
    I don't disagree, but it depends. Some files just don't stand alone and are related to each other. "Stream" photo libraries of people who take pictures for work know this issue all too well: there's a lot of junk mixed with their personal photos. What if we had... folders: one personal and one for work or per customer.
arisAlexis 26d ago
Recently switched to Mac and I always have this question mark like how can this be so bad after decades and why is everyone cool with it
xnickb 26d ago
Wow. I'm a Linux user and I have to use Mac for some work related tasks. I genuinely hate Finder and was going to lean back and enjoy reading this article. This went into a direction I didn't expect at all.
- jlund-molfese 26d ago
  Yeah, as someone whose favorite file manager is Dolphin, I have the opposite preferences of the author of the marketing post. I feel like Finder is overly-simplified and tries to abstract the directory structure away from the user too much.
marcelo-earth 26d ago
Also Spotlight worked decently until a few years ago, but not anymore Does anyone else experience this? Like it freezes when searching for programs?
exhilaration 26d ago
How do I fix search on OSX? I can never find anything, even when I do the name contains search.
SwellJoe 26d ago
My most recent laptop purchase was a Macbook Pro, because the price/performance is just so lopsided with the price of memory pushing everything up to Apple-like prices, it didn't make sense to buy an x86 laptop. But, coming from Linux it's a miserable user experience. I genuinely hate macOS. Every time I use it, I'm surprised by some weird thing about it, some limitation, some annoyance, some weird bug. Installing software is ridiculous. And, yes, Finder is weird for the sake of being weird. I simply don't understand how Apple has the reputation it has.
- nottorp 26d ago
  Maybe because you can open a terminal, do port install mc and then ignore the Finder most of the time :)
  - SwellJoe 26d ago
    I do most of my work in the terminal, so the Finder is less of an issue than it would be otherwise. I like for the desktop environment to be nice, but I don't necessarily need it for much more than managing the browser and terminal windows most of the time. But, the weird layout of the filesystem and more limited terminal environment on macOS is also uncomfortable. In some cases, it's merely different rather than worse, but the overall experience for me is notably less comfortable than Linux.
- abacadaba 26d ago
  same. now that there are finally good linux laptops with good battery and haptic touchpads i'm having a bit of buyers remorse, and will probably pick one up soon. such a waste of damn good hardware though
  - raffraffraff 26d ago
    Who currently makes a decent haptic trackpad? I have an Asus with gorgeous OLED screen, good battery life etc and fucking GARBAGE trackpad.
ivm 26d ago
Surprised by the rest of the comments because I genuinely like Finder more than any other file manager I've used. I run it in column mode all the time. Space-to-QuickLook is also amazing.
StarlaAtNight 26d ago
I’m now a full Mac user (personal + work), that came from Windows. Hate to say it, but Windows Explorer is better than Finder
muppetman 26d ago
As a Windows user for years until 2 years ago, I can’t believe how unusable finder is. It’s just terrible. I feel like it actively hides the filesystem from you at every turn. Windows was bad but at least Explorer (windows 10 version anyway) let you easily SEE the file system I’m sure as hell not buying a subscription project to fix that though lololol
- raffraffraff 26d ago
  I'll take any file browser over finder. In fact, I hate the whole MacOS UI but I can mostly ignore the problems with Karabiner, Hammerspoon and Rectangle.
  - NinjaTrance 25d ago
    I hate MacOS UI. Red/yellow/green buttons to close(?)/minimize(?)/maximize(?) windows are usability hell.
- dkackman11 26d ago
  this
- haaz 26d ago
  Yes one of the first things I did when moving to mac was pinning Macintosh HDD root folder to Finder, but that kept going away every time I restarted my Max so I bought Bloom which is way better
  - Atariman 26d ago
    Yes, Bloom is really great and easily worth the price!
- maltch 26d ago
  Explorer is a much better tool than Finder. Couldn't agree more.
  - 26d ago
pcunite 26d ago
Coming from Windows, what's outrageous about Finder, is that when I'm looking at a SMB share has is named the same as a local directory, it is very confusing as to which location is which. Scary. Like, show the full path! Not "Folder" at the top. Just crazy.
stack_framer 26d ago
This looks cool, but my least favorite things about Finder are not actually related to finding things. I prefer column mode, but: 1. When I right click, I can't create a new file of any kind. I can create a new folder—sometimes (see the next point). 2. If the folder is full, it's virtually impossible to right-click an empty spot to create a new folder. You have to scroll all the way to the top/bottom and right click the very narrow spot between the folder and the header/footer.
- neilalexander 26d ago
  Regarding 2, use the File menu in the menubar.
  - Cockbrand 26d ago
    Or hit ⇧⌘N
deleted 26d ago
[deleted]
sdcfgy 26d ago
Finder is fucking dire. I spend more time on the terminal. The vertical column mode is useless as file names are always too long. It forces you to drag and drop and open loads of windows rather than cut and paste via menus. Open vs rename is fucked up. Half the machine is hidden initially. Hiding file extensions is just broken. Every view seems to forget what state it’s in. The file copying and continue copying thing fucks up network drives. cp is actually an order of magnitude faster. The icons at the top are shit. All the keyboard shortcuts require mutant hands that only emacs users have. The trash can semantics of “put back” are just crap. It crashes at least once a day for me. I could go on for days. Windows 10 is notably better.
gedy 26d ago
Finder is really limited in many ways but it's one of the only FM that supports Miller columns, which I use quite a bit.
eszed 26d ago
Thanks for this. I'll give it a try, though I'm not someone who experiences much frustration with Finder, because I maintain a solid folder structure, and use Alfred (first) for virtually all file interactions. The deciders for me, in case you're interested: - Privacy. It doesn't look like you are trying to get my data. I'll be using network monitoring to verify. - Automatically groups like files, regardless of file location. Yes, I know I can do this manually with tags, but I... don't. - Polish. The screenshots make it look like a native interface. Bonus points if I can set it to hide until mouseover, like my dock bar. I'm most curious about how it will function alongside Dropbox, particularly with cloud-stored files. I have several times my HDD in Dropbox (largely in folders shared with me); I know Keptor won't be able to read stub files, but if it greedily downloads and fills up my HDD it'll be an instant day-killer and uninstall. If it reads on-device files, and then stores a sparse representation so it can still present them in a list once they've been removed to the cloud it'll be great; I will manually sync and de-sync some folders to get them into the data. (If it incrementally syncs cloud files to my device, reads them, and then pushes them back up it'd be amazing, and I'll buy a lifetime license immediately - but I'm not sure those permissions exist.)
- maltch 26d ago
  [dead]
abacadaba 26d ago
and dont even get me started on the missing backspace key..
dvt 26d ago
> Computer folders are still organized in structures set up some 50 years ago. Operating systems change. Computers change. Search changes. But this has never changed. I can't change that. And we've been using the Dewey Decimal System for like 150 years. Both are good systems. Kepter (a visual/gallery system) would break down when looking at more than a dozen files (or when files are very similar). I don't really think it's a good idea. What we desperately need is a system-wide (or at least documents-wide) semantic/vector search, which is basically a weekend project and a $4.99 one-time purchase.
coffeesoda 26d ago
I agree! I've been building this alternative file browser called 'Overlap' which uses Mac's tagging system. Mainly for images. It suggests tags based on Apple's photo classifier & similarity to your own tags. You can also explore data using a visual Venn Diagram. https://github.com/cruxxxxxx/Overlap https://github.com/cruxxxxxx/Overlap By no means perfect but it's helping solve my moodboarding needs.
taormina 26d ago
HN hug of death.
- maltch 26d ago
  Totally. Netlify bugged out for a few.
hirvi74 26d ago
I find this entire rant to be utterly ridiculous. Everyone is entitled to their opinions, but I do not think there is anything wrong with Finder. It's honestly no worse than any other file manager that I have used. I much prefer Finder to any alternative I have tried. I really enjoy the various keyboard shortcuts [1]. I honestly wish more file managers had some of these features. I probably use "shift+command+g" the most. It's so nice being able to jump through Finder like changing directories in the terminal. Honestly, for more complex tasks, I actually just use the terminal anyway. [1] https://support.apple.com/en-us/102650 https://support.apple.com/en-us/102650
- simondotau 26d ago
  And unlike Windows, the obscure shortcuts are discoverable by holding the modifier key down while a menu is open.
  - hirvi74 26d ago
    I learn something new on this site everyday.
ch_sm 26d ago
unpopular opinion apparently, but i don‘t understand the finder hate. as a real-life, non-software-developer user, i couldn‘t care less about library folders, root folders, or a unix-tradition file system at all. i want my folders with my documents, pictures, etc. to me that‘s far more user-friendly and comprehensible than what explorer exposes to normal people.
- krackers 26d ago
  I've never quite understood the hate either. But the way I see it is that it's not fundamentally inferior to explorer, but rather just has annoyances and warts that Apple has bizarrely not fixed for decades which makes tedious to use for anything other than casual browsing. You can still navigate by path via cmd+shift+g (this works in the file picker too), but I feel like the popup animation used to be a lot quicker on older versions. You can customize views, but to get them to actually stick you have to use an arcane incantation (delete all existing ds_store, then go to view options menu and hit "make default"). You can cut-paste but you have to use cmd+c and cmd+option+v instead of cmd+x. There is an option to merge, it only appears under conditions: only when copy/pasting and only when "alt" is held in the dialog I think. It also is really bad at browsing networked volumes, partly due to poor defaults as it tries to litter ds_store and generate thumbnails. Opening a new tab always takes you back to the root directory instead of cloning your existing view. All of it is stuff that could be added in a simple point update rather than a ground-up rewrite.
ElijahLynn 26d ago
Finder is one of the reasons I quit Mac. Main reason was that I had a knack for crashing it. And really not a fan of their marketing department not being completely in sync with their engineering department. Great marketing! But spent like five grand on a desktop Tower Mac and final cut Pro could not use all the cores. This was probably about 10-15 years ago.
lapcat 26d ago
This submission appears to be a self-promotional advertisement by the developer, who created a HN account literally an hour ago. "Please don't use HN primarily for promotion. It's ok to post your own stuff part of the time, but the primary use of the site should be for curiosity." https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html If anything, this should be a Show HN.
- maltch 26d ago
  Fair, and I should have posted it as a Show HN. It's my app and my essay, and I said so in the thread as soon as it came up. New account because I've read here for years without commenting. Happy for a mod to relabel it.
  - bbg2401 26d ago
    At least respond to comments yourself.
tpmoney 26d ago
Apple has repeatedly over the years attempted to create interfaces where knowing where the actual data was saved was no necessary to using and finding that data. iTunes, iPhoto, most of iOS. It’s usually met with a lot of resistance from people who have carefully and painstakingly crafted their perfect file hierarchies and hate it when Apple messes with that. Some of the content recognition stuff in this seem pretty interesting, but I’m not sure that “everything in a single folder with preview thumbnails turned on” would be less “frustrating” for me than the current finder paradigm. This seems like it’s aiming for the iOS photos interface but for all of your files. In general I find searching for one specific photo in that interface to be more frustrating than knowing a hierarchy it would have been saved under. But for finding recent photos and finding a cluster of temporally related photos it is better. Is that a paradigm that works for all files too? For recents probably, but I’m not sure I often look for temporally related files. Still, this is a neat looking program/project, and like I said the content recognition stuff does seem interesting.
- maltch 26d ago
  Time is merely the default order. You can also sort by what the document says. The amount. The date printed on it. Who it's from. So a receipt search isn't "when did I save this" it is "the $1200 one from March." That's what makes it work beyond photos, where all you have is time and place.
microflash 26d ago
At this point, I've come to live with it. I do use Supercharge[1] to fix some of the warts. [1]: https://sindresorhus.com/supercharge https://sindresorhus.com/supercharge
golemotron 26d ago
It's so bad for me that I often drop down into Terminal, find there (with 'find') and then use 'open'. I'm very used to doing this. I've just assumed that Finder is fine for non-technical user so no one complains. But fair point. It can be fixed.
pjmlp 26d ago
I see no reference to using Finder in 1990, and original flaws.
bhaak 26d ago
I expected people here to recommend several dual-pane file manager (aka orthodox file manager) as a replacement for Finder. But I see not a single comment recommending one? No good UI ones on macOS?
- kstrauser 26d ago
  Forklift. Lots of people like QSpace, but I’ve bumped into weird privacy issues with it every time I considered trying it. Life’s too short to worry that my file manager is spying on me.
kqp 26d ago
I’d like to propose a rule that all the Finder bashers in this thread accompany their complaint with at least one concrete example. I’m no Apple fanboy, but blind hate is just as bad as blind love, and so far 100% of the specifics brought up have turned out to be people who just don’t have a basic familiarity with the software. I genuinely don’t begrudge a person sticking to what they know, but it’s a point towards what’s good for you and maybe whether it’s intuitive, not towards whether Finder is objectively good or lacks features. I’d be happy to read both real issues and people learning more about Finder, but just “Finder sucks” doesn’t help anybody.
- maltch 26d ago
  I think frustrating is the most appropriate word. Finder is great if my files are organized and I know exactly where something is. My concrete one... The save dialog opens where it was last, so files land in places I didn’t choose, and nothing in Finder or Spotlight helps me later unless I remember the name or the contents.
  - kqp 26d ago
    Thanks for something concrete. In the open and save file dialogs, the location is a dropdown containing, amongst other things, recent locations, which would list where the file ended up. I think the number of recents is configurable in System Settings. It should also show up in the Recents sidebar entry, though I don’t use it so I’m not sure. The save dialog sidebar is configurable, I’ve put my “inbox” there. I agree it would be better for this to be an option, but I think the status quo is more clicks, not nothing exists.
- chownie 26d ago
  The keybindings (and lack of documentation for them) in Finder sucks, having to google how to show hidden files in a save dialogue every time I have to do it sucks, having to search through the UI every time for the non-obvious way to get to a specific path sucks. Do I need to mention .DS_Store? There are loads of different file managers for many different operating systems, they look and act the way they do from years of refining UX in response to the way users actually interact with them. This is why the file manager on my android phone is so similar to the one on my windows machine, and my linux install. All of them are different to Finder which appeared to lock some UX decisions in circa 1990 and then refuse to budge, this is why Finder sucks. It's the one OS where file and folder manipulation via the terminal is actually sometimes faster for me, no need to go digging for the specific ritual Finder uses in opposition to every other file manager to do the task.
hkpack 26d ago
Computer files are very unintuitive concept for humans. That’s why iOS / ipadOS were trying so hard to get rid of files completely. Because any research shows that whatever your solution is - users don’t get it. Professionals came up with their own ways navigating through that complexity. Most people prefer the first solution there were introduced to. So people preferring Windows Explorer were using it before Finder and vice versa. People also don’t spend time learning their tools - that’s why you see a lot of complains in this thread for things that are right in the menu, you don’t even need to read help or ask google, just open the damn menu. And this is HN - a forum for “power” users who spend immense time using their computers.
- userbinator 26d ago
  Computer files are very unintuitive concept for humans. That's just an excuse they give to justify the cycle of learned helplessness and control by Big Tech.
rbanffy 26d ago
If we are complaining about the impossibility of finding the files you touched in the past few days, what are your impressions of using Office (Word, Excel, PowerPoint) in conjunction with SharePoint and OneDrive? Oh… and don’t forget shared files in Teams channels.
runxel 26d ago
I don't get it. Finder is okay. Yes, there are some idiosyncracies, but once you got to know them (e.g. when coming over from Windows), it's smooth sailing - and much better than the Explorer. Why is seemingly every single person on HN unhappy with the Finder?
- notourproblem 26d ago
  > much better than the Explorer In what ways? Tags are nice. Can't think of anything else.
  - kalleboo 26d ago
    I'm only forced to use Windows occasionally but the things that always annoy me when I do are the lack of: Column View, QuickLook, spring-loaded folders, hierarchical view, calculate folder sizes in list view. The worst is how folders sort on top, so you can't just type the name of a file to jump down to it if there's a folder with a similar name. The whole tree view is so weird with how it treats folders as this special different thing. I do not understand how people can get serious work done with Windows Explorer, but I presume that's just because I'm not used to it.
VCFundedGenYer 26d ago
Finder is missing so many basic features that explorer.exe and Linux file managers have had standard for decades. Simple things like easily copying paths (and no, not with a weird keyboard shortcut nobody uses - a simple GUI method, preferably with an address bar, which Finder also lacks), copy queuing (pause queued copies rather than shotgun them all at once), cutting files (FFS why is this feature outright missing? There is an awkward keyboard shortcut to move a copied file but it's frankly not the same), broken views (icon view sends most files offscreen, and even maximizing doesn't bring them back into the confines of the window), idiotic keyboard shortcuts (Cmd O opens a file, Enter renames it? No other OS does this). I could go on and on. Finder is a rare case in macOS where Windows actually outclasses it in every way.
- simondotau 26d ago
  With respect, most of your complaints fall under the banner of "waaah, I'm used to the weird way Windows does things, so I don't like the weird way macOS does things." A relatively universal aspect of macOS is that menu/context menu options can dynamically change as you hold down option. So for anyone vaguely familiar with the macOS operating system, it's easily found from a context-click or the edit menu while holding option. If you're doing this more than once a week, it's command-option-C on Mac and control-shift-C on Windows. Learning this is as simple as any other keyboard shortcut. Of course if you're just copying a path, chances are it's to paste into the terminal. There's an easier way. Just drag the file over the terminal.
- thrwkmmshf00083 26d ago
  The feature is not missing. It is just not enabled by default because Apple hides away complexity (just like modern browsers don't show the link target you are hovering over anymore). Enable the path bar. It does what you want in regards to path copying.
animanoir 26d ago
[dead]
BatchJob 26d ago
I rather enjoy Finder as a power user and software engineer who stopped using windows 20 years ago. Although I do have to use it for work occasionally. Windows explorer is nothing to crow about. Its definitely worst of breed. It misrepresents the file system more than any tool I have used and its a buggy disgusting piece of software that has 3 generations of windows trash still left in it that MS refuses to clean up. Say what you want about Finder, but only a Windows devotee would dare put Explorer in a pile of anything to emulate. It is the worst of all possibilities and in that sense fits the host OS to a "T"
cosmotic 26d ago
I really like Finder. It's consistent, reliable, accessible, and predictable. There are easy ways to see the real file system and windows certainly doesn't do any better in this regard (see: libraries and other namespaces).
Sat_P 26d ago
Since buying an M1 Mac at launch, I’ve always been able to find most things with Finder. Prior to that, I was a Windows user since school in the 1990s, and windows search was absolutely useless. So glad I moved to Mac.
- NinjaTrance 25d ago
  Yes, the search in Finder is better than in Windows. But the UI is worse.
lungeloslx 26d ago
Each and every comment that is in agreement here is a bunch of former Windows users who wanted to move Explorer to Mac with them. I have used MacOS for over 15 years. Finder has never stood in my way. I don’t even know what “see the file system” means. Too many words to say “I don’t know how to organize my files on a computer but I consider myself a power user”
- AlotOfReading 26d ago
  I don’t even know what “see the file system” means. It just means they want to see the hierarchy that the filesystem exposes. Here's a useful diagram [0] from the Wikipedia page on hierarchial file systems [1]. There are ways to show paths and directory structure in finder, but you're fighting against the intended usage. [0] https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/2/2c/File_Hierarchy.png/1280px-File_Hierarchy.png https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/2/2c/Fi... [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hierarchical_file_system https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hierarchical_file_system
  - anon7000 26d ago
    I don’t get how this is any easier in windows explorer. In both windows and Mac I can just pin the drive itself or just the root directory to the sidebar and then use list/grid/nested columns to pop in and out of the hierarchy however I want. In both Mac and windows, the default home folders (like “documents”) sort of hide the rest of the filesystem from you.
  - sparqlittlestar 26d ago
    I'm however so confused by Windows' top level of the hierarchy. Like the Desktop contains the computer which contains the Desktop, yet that one doesn't have the computer in it. And likewise for the bin, the Configuration Panel, yet not Settings, etc. etc. Desktop > My Computer > C > Users > Me > Desktop or perhaps even on my work laptop Desktop > My Computer > C > Users > Me > OneDrive > Desktop
- NinjaTrance 25d ago
  > Each and every comment that is in agreement here is a bunch of former Windows users who wanted to move Explorer to Mac with them Linux users also agree that Finder sucks.
simulator5g 26d ago
The only real problem with Finder is that it doesn't show the current path anywhere. If it showed that, then it would be trivial to understand where to find your file later. Of course this is an option, hidden in a menu, so it is never used by the people who need it most.
- deleted 25d ago
  [deleted]
iamcalledrob 26d ago
It's funny, as a 20+ year macOS user, I've really struggled with file managers that are not Finder. I don't think it's that Finder is brilliant -- it just encourages a unique set of power user workflows that aren't replicated elsewhere. For example, Open/Save panels that act as drop targets, and navigate to the dropped file's parent folder. I use this all the time, and it drives me nuts when I can't do this on Linux (Nautilus) and Windows. Enter to rename, too. These habits are very hard to break!
- thrwkmmshf00083 26d ago
  You probably know this already but some don't (I certainly didn't for an embarrassingly long time): Rename is F2 in Windows and Linux (well, most distros File manager anyway).
berlinbrowndev 26d ago
I do it because I cant find shit "I discovered that his Desktop contained more than 1,000 files." I finally go the hang of downloads and documents. Finder doesnt find crap
saddat 26d ago
I thought it was just me . Beside ITunes one of the worst user experience
carlosjobim 26d ago
Finder is great if you use columns. Just click the button.
mnky9800n 26d ago
It also got rid of being able to right click and open in a new window. Tabs only. Whyyyyyy.
- zuhsetaqi 25d ago
  Just hold Option and Open in new Tab switches to Open in new Window.
antfarm 26d ago
It works fine for me, I use the column view (unless I want to sort) and don't use groups (uncheck Edit > Use Groups). Back in the MacOS 7.5 days I had a system extension that gave me the column view I knew from my university's NeXT workstations. For more complex file operations, there is Terminal.
getdustedyun 25d ago
Just the fact that there is no reliable way, other than 3rd party apps like FinderFix, to force Finder to open in a reasonably sized window rather than the tiny one that has roughly enough space for 6 icons in grid view makes it a garbage file manager.
gherkinnn 25d ago
> So I built a custom app for him: a drawer that eliminates folder hierarchy and location knowledge Fair, that is something I've observed since the introduction of iOS, where most users don't navigate folders and open files, but flip it and open an app and browse the recent files. As for Finder itself, the column view and hit-space-to-preview is all I want for my basic needs and I miss it whenever I have to use Windows. Can't speak to other systems.
eviks 24d ago
> files the way you see your camera roll. How is that any better let alone any good? It somewhat works for images because you can identify the content easily. But that's not the case for most of the other files, you don't get much of memory/recognition of one paragraph off text vs the other! > 1,000 files. One year later a person knows almost nothing about a file, but they still have to find it So you'd spend hours of scrolling reading everything instead of using those bits of knowledge to search???
whimbyte 23d ago
I made my own file manager to not have to use Finder so much. It's called WhimFiles and here's the tagline for it: "Narrow any folder by type, date, and size all at once. Jump anywhere with fuzzy folder search, hover to preview without opening, and browse two folders side by side. No more digging through endless Finder windows." https://whimfiles.com https://whimfiles.com
tech_tuna 22d ago
Yeah, this is one of those ancient usability issues I wouldn't even mention to the Apple cult. It's like arguing with diehard MAGA Republicans about what's wrong with Trump. I've always found Finder to be insanely awkward in comparison to Windows Explorer. Another oddity. . . the red/yellow/green icons for resizing windows. What the hell is that? Green is enlarge. Red is close. Yellow is. . . I never remember and I'm often annoyed that Apple makes me think about a mundane desktop operation so much.
tdy_err 21d ago
[dead]
akullpp 18d ago
The software on MacOS is utter garbage and always has been. You need to buy apps to make it usable, I suggest Qspace Pro in this case. But also that you need Raycast, caffeine, rectangle and many more shows you how f’d up software development is at Apple. Every software they produce is utterly awful without a single exception. But of course fanboys continue to praise everything they do blindly because of one presentation in the 90s where Jobs mocked Windows. Same goes for iPhone, the software development has no clue what they are doing. And Android software is light years ahead of anything that Apple produces in-house.

138 points by maltch 26d ago

fl0id 26d ago

So it's like fancy "last used" in finder?

forsalebypwner 25d ago
plus a subscription!

LeBit 26d ago

Water is wet. Finder is by far the worst file manager ever created.

BugsJustFindMe 26d ago
Except for all the other ones.
flyingshelf 26d ago
You didn't read past the title.

deleted 26d ago

[deleted]

davidee 26d ago

Finder is indeed frustrating. "Recent" seems like an attempt to fix this without the need to use some giant camera roll? The (hard) problem is that almost every finder alternative/add-on I've tried is someone else's ideal workflow that still doesn't sit well with me. I find KDE's Dolphin similarly frustrating - for very similar reasons. Both work marginally better (for me) when used in concert with the quick-find tools like Alfred (or Spotlight) and KRunner. None of these are perfect. Showerthought: maybe the "find files" interfaces aren't the worst offenders; maybe it's the "place files" workflows that are problematic and we're trying to solve the wrong problem?

bahmboo 26d ago
If only recent actually worked. I see no rhyme or reason why something gets in recent. I guess finder has to be involved. So often I am working with files between apps, saving and opening and such and the files never appear in recent which defeats the purpose for me. And then we have the spotlight deamon processes which seem to exist only to burn earth's precious resources. But when it works it works great. ymmv
maltch 26d ago
[dead]

Lt_Riza_Hawkeye 26d ago

Finder is frustrating but this guy is just complaining about the fact that he's unable to organize his own files into directories in a way that lets him find them later. He then calls himself a power user. Finder even has tags to help with this, which is more than most operating systems get

maltch 26d ago
So true, so true. Every time I think I've got my structure set up properly, I then do something in haste, and can't find it later. Power user and file manager are two totally different things.
- rbanffy 26d ago
  Not all data fits neatly into a hierarchy of boxes. But, if the person doesn’t know where the file is, Finder has a “Recent” virtual folder right a the top that’ll list all files the person worked on most recent on the top. I often use it to get to screenshots. There’s also a lot of basic operations that are there since the 1990s any power user would know.
greekrich92 26d ago
Finder is terrible. Not sure why it's worth defending to the point of attacking someone who simpy made something which fills its gaps.
GiorgioG 26d ago
He’s complaining…because he sells a solution to this problem. I hated Finder when I switched to Mac back in 2007. So much so I bought PathFinder. One thing that pissed me off and still does, is when I copy over a folder with the same name, it doesn’t merge the contents, it deletes everything in the existing folder. That’s not what I expected as a Windows user and it still seems like the wrong behavior almost 20 years later. I no longer use PathFinder, it had its own problems and bugs…but in general I find Finder pretty lacking.
- zitterbewegung 26d ago

iwontberude 26d ago

[dead]

userbinator 26d ago

Thinly veiled marketing post. I've had to use Finder, and it's definitely frustrating in a "Think Different" sort of way, but this article doesn't actually mention why beyond vague statements. Here's a concrete one: Enter enters rename mode.

maltch 26d ago
It's my app, no veil intended. It pulls all the drives, folders into one stream . So it doesn't matter where a file is located. Then it reads what is inside so you can type in what you remember.
mikestew 26d ago
Here's a concrete one: Enter enters rename mode. I can make the apologetics for just about anything in macOS. After over 20 years of using OS X/macOS, I still can't make the case for this one. Imagine a button has focus, you hit Enter, and it allows you to change the text on the button instead of executing the code behind button.click(). That behavior is just as dumb if a file has focus in Finder.
- tpmoney 26d ago
  Aside from “it’s historically always done that”, I’d argue that because you use arrow keys to navigate around the finder (left, right, up, down to select, CMD-up to go up a directory, it only makes sense that CMD-down would open a directory (or file/application). And within that context it makes more sense than “enter”.
- rufo 26d ago
  Because, as one of the original GUIs, when they conceived of how the Macintosh worked, you used the command keys to perform actions on files, and you could rename the file just by typing. Cmd-O was the shortcut for opening files, which makes sense for obvious reasons. When they released the Macintosh to the world, Andy Hertzfeld realized that people were renaming items in the Finder by accident; so he added the "return" key (already used to confirm actions) as an "arming" step[1]. Now, one might ask: wouldn't that interrupt people navigating via the keyboard? No, because the original Macintosh didn't have arrow keys on the keyboard. This was an intentional choice—or, perhaps, mandate from Jobs—as a way to get users to use the mouse as their primary input device, and to force developers to create mouse-driven interfaces. With no arrow keys, no typeahead search implemented, and a clean slate for designing an interface, I'm guessing using Return to open a file wasn't a strong consideration at the time. Why wasn't it changed? Because Mac OS X was made for Mac users, and we all have muscle memory dating back decades :P [1]: https://www.folklore.org/A_Floppy_named_lsadkfjalhkjh.html https://www.folklore.org/A_Floppy_named_lsadkfjalhkjh.html

arjie 26d ago

In the end, it turns out for me that the classic explorer Tree View is the most intuitive. I know where things are as a sub-tree system. I get that hard links etc. complicate this and perhaps there are smart folders etc which do not fit this model well but I find I frequently want to “Go Up” in the hierarchy and this requires an uncomfortable shortcut on a Macbook (arrow key) or a menu button rather than a toolbar icon. But these are complaints. The right answer is to see if I can build a file explorer for MacOS that behaves in the fashion I desire.

simondotau 26d ago
Once I got used to column view, I miss it on other operating systems. I don't feel like there's anything I can't do with two Finder windows in column view. And for everything else there's the terminal.
- arjie 26d ago
  For the main pane? I used to have Windows Explorer with the column view in the main pane and the tree view on the left pane and it was perfect. I don't really mind Nautilus with the breadcrumbs on the top and columns in the main pane. But I think simply going up and down in a Finder window is quite hard unless you navigated there manually, but I'm usually in finder because of `open ~/Folder/Path` and so I end up manually going Cmd-G and typing my path in because it's too hard to navigate otherwise.
- andrekandre 26d ago
  column view is the one saving grace of finder; the rest is best left untouched

mosura 26d ago

The problem with Finder is historic. The classic Mac finder was a work of art, if you are the sort of person that arranges things spatially, but most programmers are not. Hence NeXT created something else which got merged back incoherently into what became OSX. The Risc OS filer remains king, largely because managing windows on Risc OS is much more tolerable.

flyingshelf 26d ago
You didn't read past the title.
- mosura 26d ago
  You don’t understand words?

flyingshelf 26d ago

I think you're gonna lose a lot of comments here to the "Finder" word here. The problem is not the Finder but directories, which exist on all operating systems. With that aside, this is a great idea for most files. Of course my images are still in folders with the projects they belong to, but my life photos are in one stream. Files, contacts, a lot of data would benefit greatly from this visualization. As for people with 1000 files on their desktop, who cares, they are as good as hoarders and they get what it comes to them. Discipline helps both in the real and in the digital world.

maltch 26d ago
If you have the time to be focused on folder hierarchy and organization, great. Most of the people I help don't, and I built this for them. In building it, I learned that organizing files wastes much more time than you think. Finding files is all anyone actually needs.
- flyingshelf 26d ago
  I don't disagree, but it depends. Some files just don't stand alone and are related to each other. "Stream" photo libraries of people who take pictures for work know this issue all too well: there's a lot of junk mixed with their personal photos. What if we had... folders: one personal and one for work or per customer.

arisAlexis 26d ago

Recently switched to Mac and I always have this question mark like how can this be so bad after decades and why is everyone cool with it

xnickb 26d ago

Wow. I'm a Linux user and I have to use Mac for some work related tasks. I genuinely hate Finder and was going to lean back and enjoy reading this article. This went into a direction I didn't expect at all.

jlund-molfese 26d ago
Yeah, as someone whose favorite file manager is Dolphin, I have the opposite preferences of the author of the marketing post. I feel like Finder is overly-simplified and tries to abstract the directory structure away from the user too much.

marcelo-earth 26d ago

Also Spotlight worked decently until a few years ago, but not anymore Does anyone else experience this? Like it freezes when searching for programs?

exhilaration 26d ago

How do I fix search on OSX? I can never find anything, even when I do the name contains search.

SwellJoe 26d ago

My most recent laptop purchase was a Macbook Pro, because the price/performance is just so lopsided with the price of memory pushing everything up to Apple-like prices, it didn't make sense to buy an x86 laptop. But, coming from Linux it's a miserable user experience. I genuinely hate macOS. Every time I use it, I'm surprised by some weird thing about it, some limitation, some annoyance, some weird bug. Installing software is ridiculous. And, yes, Finder is weird for the sake of being weird. I simply don't understand how Apple has the reputation it has.

nottorp 26d ago
Maybe because you can open a terminal, do port install mc and then ignore the Finder most of the time :)
- SwellJoe 26d ago
  I do most of my work in the terminal, so the Finder is less of an issue than it would be otherwise. I like for the desktop environment to be nice, but I don't necessarily need it for much more than managing the browser and terminal windows most of the time. But, the weird layout of the filesystem and more limited terminal environment on macOS is also uncomfortable. In some cases, it's merely different rather than worse, but the overall experience for me is notably less comfortable than Linux.
abacadaba 26d ago
same. now that there are finally good linux laptops with good battery and haptic touchpads i'm having a bit of buyers remorse, and will probably pick one up soon. such a waste of damn good hardware though
- raffraffraff 26d ago
  Who currently makes a decent haptic trackpad? I have an Asus with gorgeous OLED screen, good battery life etc and fucking GARBAGE trackpad.

ivm 26d ago

Surprised by the rest of the comments because I genuinely like Finder more than any other file manager I've used. I run it in column mode all the time. Space-to-QuickLook is also amazing.

StarlaAtNight 26d ago

I’m now a full Mac user (personal + work), that came from Windows. Hate to say it, but Windows Explorer is better than Finder

muppetman 26d ago

As a Windows user for years until 2 years ago, I can’t believe how unusable finder is. It’s just terrible. I feel like it actively hides the filesystem from you at every turn. Windows was bad but at least Explorer (windows 10 version anyway) let you easily SEE the file system I’m sure as hell not buying a subscription project to fix that though lololol

raffraffraff 26d ago
I'll take any file browser over finder. In fact, I hate the whole MacOS UI but I can mostly ignore the problems with Karabiner, Hammerspoon and Rectangle.
- NinjaTrance 25d ago
  I hate MacOS UI. Red/yellow/green buttons to close(?)/minimize(?)/maximize(?) windows are usability hell.
dkackman11 26d ago
this
haaz 26d ago
Yes one of the first things I did when moving to mac was pinning Macintosh HDD root folder to Finder, but that kept going away every time I restarted my Max so I bought Bloom which is way better
- Atariman 26d ago
  Yes, Bloom is really great and easily worth the price!
maltch 26d ago
Explorer is a much better tool than Finder. Couldn't agree more.
- 26d ago

pcunite 26d ago

Coming from Windows, what's outrageous about Finder, is that when I'm looking at a SMB share has is named the same as a local directory, it is very confusing as to which location is which. Scary. Like, show the full path! Not "Folder" at the top. Just crazy.

stack_framer 26d ago

This looks cool, but my least favorite things about Finder are not actually related to finding things. I prefer column mode, but: 1. When I right click, I can't create a new file of any kind. I can create a new folder—sometimes (see the next point). 2. If the folder is full, it's virtually impossible to right-click an empty spot to create a new folder. You have to scroll all the way to the top/bottom and right click the very narrow spot between the folder and the header/footer.

neilalexander 26d ago
Regarding 2, use the File menu in the menubar.
- Cockbrand 26d ago
  Or hit ⇧⌘N

deleted 26d ago

[deleted]

sdcfgy 26d ago

Finder is fucking dire. I spend more time on the terminal. The vertical column mode is useless as file names are always too long. It forces you to drag and drop and open loads of windows rather than cut and paste via menus. Open vs rename is fucked up. Half the machine is hidden initially. Hiding file extensions is just broken. Every view seems to forget what state it’s in. The file copying and continue copying thing fucks up network drives. cp is actually an order of magnitude faster. The icons at the top are shit. All the keyboard shortcuts require mutant hands that only emacs users have. The trash can semantics of “put back” are just crap. It crashes at least once a day for me. I could go on for days. Windows 10 is notably better.

gedy 26d ago

Finder is really limited in many ways but it's one of the only FM that supports Miller columns, which I use quite a bit.

eszed 26d ago

Thanks for this. I'll give it a try, though I'm not someone who experiences much frustration with Finder, because I maintain a solid folder structure, and use Alfred (first) for virtually all file interactions. The deciders for me, in case you're interested: - Privacy. It doesn't look like you are trying to get my data. I'll be using network monitoring to verify. - Automatically groups like files, regardless of file location. Yes, I know I can do this manually with tags, but I... don't. - Polish. The screenshots make it look like a native interface. Bonus points if I can set it to hide until mouseover, like my dock bar. I'm most curious about how it will function alongside Dropbox, particularly with cloud-stored files. I have several times my HDD in Dropbox (largely in folders shared with me); I know Keptor won't be able to read stub files, but if it greedily downloads and fills up my HDD it'll be an instant day-killer and uninstall. If it reads on-device files, and then stores a sparse representation so it can still present them in a list once they've been removed to the cloud it'll be great; I will manually sync and de-sync some folders to get them into the data. (If it incrementally syncs cloud files to my device, reads them, and then pushes them back up it'd be amazing, and I'll buy a lifetime license immediately - but I'm not sure those permissions exist.)

maltch 26d ago
[dead]

abacadaba 26d ago

and dont even get me started on the missing backspace key..

dvt 26d ago

> Computer folders are still organized in structures set up some 50 years ago. Operating systems change. Computers change. Search changes. But this has never changed. I can't change that. And we've been using the Dewey Decimal System for like 150 years. Both are good systems. Kepter (a visual/gallery system) would break down when looking at more than a dozen files (or when files are very similar). I don't really think it's a good idea. What we desperately need is a system-wide (or at least documents-wide) semantic/vector search, which is basically a weekend project and a $4.99 one-time purchase.

coffeesoda 26d ago

I agree! I've been building this alternative file browser called 'Overlap' which uses Mac's tagging system. Mainly for images. It suggests tags based on Apple's photo classifier & similarity to your own tags. You can also explore data using a visual Venn Diagram. https://github.com/cruxxxxxx/Overlap https://github.com/cruxxxxxx/Overlap By no means perfect but it's helping solve my moodboarding needs.

taormina 26d ago

HN hug of death.

maltch 26d ago
Totally. Netlify bugged out for a few.

hirvi74 26d ago

I find this entire rant to be utterly ridiculous. Everyone is entitled to their opinions, but I do not think there is anything wrong with Finder. It's honestly no worse than any other file manager that I have used. I much prefer Finder to any alternative I have tried. I really enjoy the various keyboard shortcuts [1]. I honestly wish more file managers had some of these features. I probably use "shift+command+g" the most. It's so nice being able to jump through Finder like changing directories in the terminal. Honestly, for more complex tasks, I actually just use the terminal anyway. [1] https://support.apple.com/en-us/102650 https://support.apple.com/en-us/102650

simondotau 26d ago
And unlike Windows, the obscure shortcuts are discoverable by holding the modifier key down while a menu is open.
- hirvi74 26d ago
  I learn something new on this site everyday.

ch_sm 26d ago

unpopular opinion apparently, but i don‘t understand the finder hate. as a real-life, non-software-developer user, i couldn‘t care less about library folders, root folders, or a unix-tradition file system at all. i want my folders with my documents, pictures, etc. to me that‘s far more user-friendly and comprehensible than what explorer exposes to normal people.

krackers 26d ago
I've never quite understood the hate either. But the way I see it is that it's not fundamentally inferior to explorer, but rather just has annoyances and warts that Apple has bizarrely not fixed for decades which makes tedious to use for anything other than casual browsing. You can still navigate by path via cmd+shift+g (this works in the file picker too), but I feel like the popup animation used to be a lot quicker on older versions. You can customize views, but to get them to actually stick you have to use an arcane incantation (delete all existing ds_store, then go to view options menu and hit "make default"). You can cut-paste but you have to use cmd+c and cmd+option+v instead of cmd+x. There is an option to merge, it only appears under conditions: only when copy/pasting and only when "alt" is held in the dialog I think. It also is really bad at browsing networked volumes, partly due to poor defaults as it tries to litter ds_store and generate thumbnails. Opening a new tab always takes you back to the root directory instead of cloning your existing view. All of it is stuff that could be added in a simple point update rather than a ground-up rewrite.

ElijahLynn 26d ago

Finder is one of the reasons I quit Mac. Main reason was that I had a knack for crashing it. And really not a fan of their marketing department not being completely in sync with their engineering department. Great marketing! But spent like five grand on a desktop Tower Mac and final cut Pro could not use all the cores. This was probably about 10-15 years ago.

lapcat 26d ago

This submission appears to be a self-promotional advertisement by the developer, who created a HN account literally an hour ago. "Please don't use HN primarily for promotion. It's ok to post your own stuff part of the time, but the primary use of the site should be for curiosity." https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html If anything, this should be a Show HN.

maltch 26d ago
Fair, and I should have posted it as a Show HN. It's my app and my essay, and I said so in the thread as soon as it came up. New account because I've read here for years without commenting. Happy for a mod to relabel it.
- bbg2401 26d ago
  At least respond to comments yourself.

tpmoney 26d ago

Apple has repeatedly over the years attempted to create interfaces where knowing where the actual data was saved was no necessary to using and finding that data. iTunes, iPhoto, most of iOS. It’s usually met with a lot of resistance from people who have carefully and painstakingly crafted their perfect file hierarchies and hate it when Apple messes with that. Some of the content recognition stuff in this seem pretty interesting, but I’m not sure that “everything in a single folder with preview thumbnails turned on” would be less “frustrating” for me than the current finder paradigm. This seems like it’s aiming for the iOS photos interface but for all of your files. In general I find searching for one specific photo in that interface to be more frustrating than knowing a hierarchy it would have been saved under. But for finding recent photos and finding a cluster of temporally related photos it is better. Is that a paradigm that works for all files too? For recents probably, but I’m not sure I often look for temporally related files. Still, this is a neat looking program/project, and like I said the content recognition stuff does seem interesting.

maltch 26d ago
Time is merely the default order. You can also sort by what the document says. The amount. The date printed on it. Who it's from. So a receipt search isn't "when did I save this" it is "the $1200 one from March." That's what makes it work beyond photos, where all you have is time and place.

microflash 26d ago

At this point, I've come to live with it. I do use Supercharge[1] to fix some of the warts. [1]: https://sindresorhus.com/supercharge https://sindresorhus.com/supercharge

golemotron 26d ago

It's so bad for me that I often drop down into Terminal, find there (with 'find') and then use 'open'. I'm very used to doing this. I've just assumed that Finder is fine for non-technical user so no one complains. But fair point. It can be fixed.

pjmlp 26d ago

I see no reference to using Finder in 1990, and original flaws.

bhaak 26d ago

I expected people here to recommend several dual-pane file manager (aka orthodox file manager) as a replacement for Finder. But I see not a single comment recommending one? No good UI ones on macOS?

kstrauser 26d ago
Forklift. Lots of people like QSpace, but I’ve bumped into weird privacy issues with it every time I considered trying it. Life’s too short to worry that my file manager is spying on me.

kqp 26d ago

I’d like to propose a rule that all the Finder bashers in this thread accompany their complaint with at least one concrete example. I’m no Apple fanboy, but blind hate is just as bad as blind love, and so far 100% of the specifics brought up have turned out to be people who just don’t have a basic familiarity with the software. I genuinely don’t begrudge a person sticking to what they know, but it’s a point towards what’s good for you and maybe whether it’s intuitive, not towards whether Finder is objectively good or lacks features. I’d be happy to read both real issues and people learning more about Finder, but just “Finder sucks” doesn’t help anybody.

maltch 26d ago
I think frustrating is the most appropriate word. Finder is great if my files are organized and I know exactly where something is. My concrete one... The save dialog opens where it was last, so files land in places I didn’t choose, and nothing in Finder or Spotlight helps me later unless I remember the name or the contents.
- kqp 26d ago
  Thanks for something concrete. In the open and save file dialogs, the location is a dropdown containing, amongst other things, recent locations, which would list where the file ended up. I think the number of recents is configurable in System Settings. It should also show up in the Recents sidebar entry, though I don’t use it so I’m not sure. The save dialog sidebar is configurable, I’ve put my “inbox” there. I agree it would be better for this to be an option, but I think the status quo is more clicks, not nothing exists.
chownie 26d ago
The keybindings (and lack of documentation for them) in Finder sucks, having to google how to show hidden files in a save dialogue every time I have to do it sucks, having to search through the UI every time for the non-obvious way to get to a specific path sucks. Do I need to mention .DS_Store? There are loads of different file managers for many different operating systems, they look and act the way they do from years of refining UX in response to the way users actually interact with them. This is why the file manager on my android phone is so similar to the one on my windows machine, and my linux install. All of them are different to Finder which appeared to lock some UX decisions in circa 1990 and then refuse to budge, this is why Finder sucks. It's the one OS where file and folder manipulation via the terminal is actually sometimes faster for me, no need to go digging for the specific ritual Finder uses in opposition to every other file manager to do the task.

hkpack 26d ago

Computer files are very unintuitive concept for humans. That’s why iOS / ipadOS were trying so hard to get rid of files completely. Because any research shows that whatever your solution is - users don’t get it. Professionals came up with their own ways navigating through that complexity. Most people prefer the first solution there were introduced to. So people preferring Windows Explorer were using it before Finder and vice versa. People also don’t spend time learning their tools - that’s why you see a lot of complains in this thread for things that are right in the menu, you don’t even need to read help or ask google, just open the damn menu. And this is HN - a forum for “power” users who spend immense time using their computers.

userbinator 26d ago
Computer files are very unintuitive concept for humans. That's just an excuse they give to justify the cycle of learned helplessness and control by Big Tech.

rbanffy 26d ago

If we are complaining about the impossibility of finding the files you touched in the past few days, what are your impressions of using Office (Word, Excel, PowerPoint) in conjunction with SharePoint and OneDrive? Oh… and don’t forget shared files in Teams channels.

runxel 26d ago

I don't get it. Finder is okay. Yes, there are some idiosyncracies, but once you got to know them (e.g. when coming over from Windows), it's smooth sailing - and much better than the Explorer. Why is seemingly every single person on HN unhappy with the Finder?

notourproblem 26d ago
> much better than the Explorer In what ways? Tags are nice. Can't think of anything else.
- kalleboo 26d ago
  I'm only forced to use Windows occasionally but the things that always annoy me when I do are the lack of: Column View, QuickLook, spring-loaded folders, hierarchical view, calculate folder sizes in list view. The worst is how folders sort on top, so you can't just type the name of a file to jump down to it if there's a folder with a similar name. The whole tree view is so weird with how it treats folders as this special different thing. I do not understand how people can get serious work done with Windows Explorer, but I presume that's just because I'm not used to it.

VCFundedGenYer 26d ago

Finder is missing so many basic features that explorer.exe and Linux file managers have had standard for decades. Simple things like easily copying paths (and no, not with a weird keyboard shortcut nobody uses - a simple GUI method, preferably with an address bar, which Finder also lacks), copy queuing (pause queued copies rather than shotgun them all at once), cutting files (FFS why is this feature outright missing? There is an awkward keyboard shortcut to move a copied file but it's frankly not the same), broken views (icon view sends most files offscreen, and even maximizing doesn't bring them back into the confines of the window), idiotic keyboard shortcuts (Cmd O opens a file, Enter renames it? No other OS does this). I could go on and on. Finder is a rare case in macOS where Windows actually outclasses it in every way.

simondotau 26d ago
With respect, most of your complaints fall under the banner of "waaah, I'm used to the weird way Windows does things, so I don't like the weird way macOS does things." A relatively universal aspect of macOS is that menu/context menu options can dynamically change as you hold down option. So for anyone vaguely familiar with the macOS operating system, it's easily found from a context-click or the edit menu while holding option. If you're doing this more than once a week, it's command-option-C on Mac and control-shift-C on Windows. Learning this is as simple as any other keyboard shortcut. Of course if you're just copying a path, chances are it's to paste into the terminal. There's an easier way. Just drag the file over the terminal.
thrwkmmshf00083 26d ago
The feature is not missing. It is just not enabled by default because Apple hides away complexity (just like modern browsers don't show the link target you are hovering over anymore). Enable the path bar. It does what you want in regards to path copying.

animanoir 26d ago

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BatchJob 26d ago

I rather enjoy Finder as a power user and software engineer who stopped using windows 20 years ago. Although I do have to use it for work occasionally. Windows explorer is nothing to crow about. Its definitely worst of breed. It misrepresents the file system more than any tool I have used and its a buggy disgusting piece of software that has 3 generations of windows trash still left in it that MS refuses to clean up. Say what you want about Finder, but only a Windows devotee would dare put Explorer in a pile of anything to emulate. It is the worst of all possibilities and in that sense fits the host OS to a "T"

cosmotic 26d ago

I really like Finder. It's consistent, reliable, accessible, and predictable. There are easy ways to see the real file system and windows certainly doesn't do any better in this regard (see: libraries and other namespaces).

Sat_P 26d ago

Since buying an M1 Mac at launch, I’ve always been able to find most things with Finder. Prior to that, I was a Windows user since school in the 1990s, and windows search was absolutely useless. So glad I moved to Mac.

NinjaTrance 25d ago
Yes, the search in Finder is better than in Windows. But the UI is worse.

lungeloslx 26d ago

Each and every comment that is in agreement here is a bunch of former Windows users who wanted to move Explorer to Mac with them. I have used MacOS for over 15 years. Finder has never stood in my way. I don’t even know what “see the file system” means. Too many words to say “I don’t know how to organize my files on a computer but I consider myself a power user”

AlotOfReading 26d ago
I don’t even know what “see the file system” means. It just means they want to see the hierarchy that the filesystem exposes. Here's a useful diagram [0] from the Wikipedia page on hierarchial file systems [1]. There are ways to show paths and directory structure in finder, but you're fighting against the intended usage. [0] https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/2/2c/File_Hierarchy.png/1280px-File_Hierarchy.png https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/2/2c/Fi... [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hierarchical_file_system https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hierarchical_file_system
- anon7000 26d ago
  I don’t get how this is any easier in windows explorer. In both windows and Mac I can just pin the drive itself or just the root directory to the sidebar and then use list/grid/nested columns to pop in and out of the hierarchy however I want. In both Mac and windows, the default home folders (like “documents”) sort of hide the rest of the filesystem from you.
- sparqlittlestar 26d ago
  I'm however so confused by Windows' top level of the hierarchy. Like the Desktop contains the computer which contains the Desktop, yet that one doesn't have the computer in it. And likewise for the bin, the Configuration Panel, yet not Settings, etc. etc. Desktop > My Computer > C > Users > Me > Desktop or perhaps even on my work laptop Desktop > My Computer > C > Users > Me > OneDrive > Desktop
NinjaTrance 25d ago
> Each and every comment that is in agreement here is a bunch of former Windows users who wanted to move Explorer to Mac with them Linux users also agree that Finder sucks.

simulator5g 26d ago

The only real problem with Finder is that it doesn't show the current path anywhere. If it showed that, then it would be trivial to understand where to find your file later. Of course this is an option, hidden in a menu, so it is never used by the people who need it most.

deleted 25d ago
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iamcalledrob 26d ago

It's funny, as a 20+ year macOS user, I've really struggled with file managers that are not Finder. I don't think it's that Finder is brilliant -- it just encourages a unique set of power user workflows that aren't replicated elsewhere. For example, Open/Save panels that act as drop targets, and navigate to the dropped file's parent folder. I use this all the time, and it drives me nuts when I can't do this on Linux (Nautilus) and Windows. Enter to rename, too. These habits are very hard to break!

thrwkmmshf00083 26d ago
You probably know this already but some don't (I certainly didn't for an embarrassingly long time): Rename is F2 in Windows and Linux (well, most distros File manager anyway).

berlinbrowndev 26d ago

I do it because I cant find shit "I discovered that his Desktop contained more than 1,000 files." I finally go the hang of downloads and documents. Finder doesnt find crap

saddat 26d ago

I thought it was just me . Beside ITunes one of the worst user experience

carlosjobim 26d ago

Finder is great if you use columns. Just click the button.

mnky9800n 26d ago

It also got rid of being able to right click and open in a new window. Tabs only. Whyyyyyy.

zuhsetaqi 25d ago
Just hold Option and Open in new Tab switches to Open in new Window.

antfarm 26d ago

It works fine for me, I use the column view (unless I want to sort) and don't use groups (uncheck Edit > Use Groups). Back in the MacOS 7.5 days I had a system extension that gave me the column view I knew from my university's NeXT workstations. For more complex file operations, there is Terminal.

getdustedyun 25d ago

Just the fact that there is no reliable way, other than 3rd party apps like FinderFix, to force Finder to open in a reasonably sized window rather than the tiny one that has roughly enough space for 6 icons in grid view makes it a garbage file manager.

gherkinnn 25d ago

> So I built a custom app for him: a drawer that eliminates folder hierarchy and location knowledge Fair, that is something I've observed since the introduction of iOS, where most users don't navigate folders and open files, but flip it and open an app and browse the recent files. As for Finder itself, the column view and hit-space-to-preview is all I want for my basic needs and I miss it whenever I have to use Windows. Can't speak to other systems.

eviks 24d ago

> files the way you see your camera roll. How is that any better let alone any good? It somewhat works for images because you can identify the content easily. But that's not the case for most of the other files, you don't get much of memory/recognition of one paragraph off text vs the other! > 1,000 files. One year later a person knows almost nothing about a file, but they still have to find it So you'd spend hours of scrolling reading everything instead of using those bits of knowledge to search???

whimbyte 23d ago

I made my own file manager to not have to use Finder so much. It's called WhimFiles and here's the tagline for it: "Narrow any folder by type, date, and size all at once. Jump anywhere with fuzzy folder search, hover to preview without opening, and browse two folders side by side. No more digging through endless Finder windows." https://whimfiles.com https://whimfiles.com

tech_tuna 22d ago

Yeah, this is one of those ancient usability issues I wouldn't even mention to the Apple cult. It's like arguing with diehard MAGA Republicans about what's wrong with Trump. I've always found Finder to be insanely awkward in comparison to Windows Explorer. Another oddity. . . the red/yellow/green icons for resizing windows. What the hell is that? Green is enlarge. Red is close. Yellow is. . . I never remember and I'm often annoyed that Apple makes me think about a mundane desktop operation so much.

tdy_err 21d ago

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akullpp 18d ago

The software on MacOS is utter garbage and always has been. You need to buy apps to make it usable, I suggest Qspace Pro in this case. But also that you need Raycast, caffeine, rectangle and many more shows you how f’d up software development is at Apple. Every software they produce is utterly awful without a single exception. But of course fanboys continue to praise everything they do blindly because of one presentation in the 90s where Jobs mocked Windows. Same goes for iPhone, the software development has no clue what they are doing. And Android software is light years ahead of anything that Apple produces in-house.