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Apparently their beets looked the same as ours: > The kind of beets used in such an ancient recipe should not be different from the beets we use today, even in
by dvh 27d ago
Apparently their beets looked the same as ours:
> The kind of beets used in such an ancient recipe should not be different from the beets we use today, even in name. We read in Dictionary of Assyrian Botany (by Campbell Thompson, 1948) that in the ancient Mesopotamian region it was called ‘shumundar,’ it was as red as blood, and has a spinning-top shape (pp. 49, 51).
- alephnerd 27d agoThe recipe is also similar to Hamedh [0], a delicacy in Iraqi and Baghdadi Jewish households. The only major difference is the addition of tomatoes thanks to the Columbian Exchange, and rice - which would have not been cultivated or traded in West Asia yet. On that note, in Arabic, Farsi, and Hindustani the word for Tomato is essentially shared (tumatar/tamatimu) with the English word "tomato". But anyhow, a lot of home cooking and traditional meals actually have a pretty long history. [0] - https://www.splendidtable.org/story/2000/12/12/hamad-iraqi-braised-lamb-with-beets-and-tomatoes https://www.splendidtable.org/story/2000/12/12/hamad-iraqi-b...
- amir_karbasi 27d agoActually, in Persian, tomato is literally translated as “western plum”. This is common in our language as we usually say “western” or “foreign” as a prefix to many things that were introduced to Iran (strawberries, sit-style toilets, etc)
- alephnerd 27d agoAppreciate the clarification!
- amir_karbasi 27d agoMy pleasure! I also find languages very interesting and have had the opportunity to grow up in a bilingual home and learn French and German. One more fun fact is that potato is a direct translation of the French “Pomme de terre” (“sib zamani” or “ground apple”). Back to the actual topic, this is a recipe that’s definitely worth trying. Persian shallots are actually more garlicky than oniony. A great addition to lamb dishes and yogurt.
- dotancohen 27d agoThank you! In Hebrew we literally call the potato תפוח אדמה which is "ground apple". Now I know where the idea comes from.
- bitwize 26d agoI find it fascinating that the Persian word for "foreign"/"Western", farangi, actually means "Frankish", which gives some idea of the "compressed geography" people experience regarding faraway places. It was also used to name a race on Star Trek.
- abtinf 27d agoIt is not a “clarification”. You are wrong and are spreading misinformation. In Farsi, the word for tomato is gojeh farangi.
- riffraff 27d agoInteresting, in various European languages those tend to be "Turkish": turkey hens (the bird called turkey now), Turkish corn (maize), Turkish beans (long beans). Again, trade routes.
- oldandboring 27d ago> maize Which, in turn, originated in Mexico and didn't make its way to Europe until the 1500s.
- idontwantthis 27d agoIn Panama they say Chino for foreign versions and in Cambodia they say barang which literally means Frankish (via farang from Thailand).
- selcuka 27d ago> Turkish corn (maize) And in Turkish maize is called "Mısır", which comes from the country name Egypt (which is also Mısır in Turkish). When Arabs conquered Egypt, they called it "Mishr" (مصر) which literally translates to "country" or "borderland". Maize was originally imported from the Americas, but because the trade route was through Egypt, Turkish people initially called it Egypt Wheat or Egypt Millet. In time, it is started to be called only Mısır/Egypt.
- sehansen 26d agoI wonder what they call maize in Egypt then? According to Kagi Translate, a term for maize that's specific to Egypt is "الذرة الشامية" (al-dhura ash-shāmiyyah) which could be directly translated to "Levantine sorghum". Can anyone with actual knowledge of Egytian Arabic confirm? Also I had the idea that "Maize" might have come from "Mısır", but etymonline claims it comes from the native (Arawakan) name for the plant: mahiz.
- deleted 26d ago[deleted]
- xattt 27d agoAs an aside, tomatoes are golden apples (pomodoro), and oranges are Chinese apples (Apfelsin) in some languages. A lot of cultures appear to name botanicals using apples or, in GP’s context, stone fruit as “reference” points.
- snthpy 26d agoThank you for this. Knowing both those words, i could never work out the original/history of the terms.
- fsckboy 26d ago>A lot of cultures appear to name botanicals using apples don't know if it makes the point or upends it, but the fruit in the Garden of Eden wasn't specifically an apple.
- vladgur 26d agoWow, апельсин - apelsin(Russian) makes total sense now
- mlni 26d agoPotatoes are called "earth apples" in french (pomme de terre) and a bunch of other european languages
- YeGoblynQueenne 26d agoWait 'till you hear about melon - "μήλον" i.e. "apple" in Greek. Melon, watermelon, pomelo, etc. The ancient Greeks themselves started that with the "golden apples of the Hesperides" a.k.a. oranges. I guess any fruit people didn't know how to call was ... some kind of apple.
- Agentlien 26d agoEverything is an apple, it seems. You also have earth apples (pomme de terre in French, aardappel in Dutch) for potatoes, grenade apples (pomegranate in English, granatäpple in Swedish, ...), pineapple, ...
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- thrdbndndn 27d agoChinese does the same thing, using prefixes like 西 (western), 番 (foreign), and 洋 (foreign) for introduced items. For tomatoes, interestingly, it has two common names that follow this pattern: 西紅柿, literally translated as "Western Red Persimmon", and 番茄, literally translated as "Foreign Eggplant". Other produce examples include 番薯 (Foreign Yam) for sweet potato, 西瓜 (Western Melon) for watermelon, 洋蔥 (Foreign Onion) for bulb onion etc.
- dotancohen 27d agoThe recorded English-language etymology for "ketchup" suggests that the word comes from one of the Chinese dialect's word for tomato. Do you have any idea which Chinese word sounds like ketchup?
- taneliv 26d agoNot exactly a Chinese dialect, but Vietnamese calls tomatoes "cà chua": https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/c%C3%A0_chua https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/c%C3%A0_chua .
- dotancohen 26d agoAre the Vietnamese and Chinese languages related? Or perhaps one of the two cultures was introduced to that fruit by the other, and thus preserved the name?
- avadodin 26d agoNot related at all in recent history and I have no insight on the etymology links but Vietnamese used to be written in a mix of original Vietnamese Chinese-style characters before they changed to a Latin alphabet with Colonialism and Communism so there was definitely contact.
- dotancohen 26d agoThank you
- eru 26d agoAustrians call tomatoes Paradeiser, from an older word for Paradise.
- bitwize 26d agoThere is a bird native to the Americas which in English is called the turkey, from its original name "Turkey fowl", because it was thought to come from "the east" of which Türkiye is the country with which most Europeans were familiar (due to being the closest). In Turkish, the bird's name references India ("hindi"); the same is true of other languages such as French ("dinde", from "poule d'inde", chicken of India).
- dotancohen 27d ago> On that note, in Arabic, Farsi, and Hindustani the word for Tomato is essentially shared (tumatar/tamatimu) with the English word "tomato". In the Levant we use the word بندورا "bindora" in Arabic for tomato.
- alephnerd 27d agoHuh. Like Pomodoro. That makes sense.
- IgorPartola 27d agoIn Russian we use tomat and pomidor interchangeably.
- jamal-kumar 26d agoMeanwhile English speakers joke about disagreements over the pronunciation of tomato
- simonh 26d agoMy favourite take on this. https://youtu.be/kcHKm0cm-jI?is=fqjBSNiJ2jYEXuq1 https://youtu.be/kcHKm0cm-jI?is=fqjBSNiJ2jYEXuq1
- dotancohen 26d agoVery likely from Pomodoro. In Arabic P is pronounced B or F.
- culi 26d ago> rice - which would have not been cultivated or traded in West Asia yet Surprisingly it was still imported in surprising quantities nearly 1000 years before it started to be cultivated. Not significant enough quantities for it to be a common staple, but still an interesting tidbit
- ErroneousBosh 26d agoOne day, someone - someone like you, maybe, someone with the Hacker Nature - was looking at the rice they'd bought and thought "You know what, it just *cannot* be all that difficult to just grow this stuff here, it costs a fortune to import. How hard can it possibly be?" So they set to digging irrigation trenches, and had a go at it, and maybe a couple of shitty harvests later they'd got the trick nailed. And here we are.
- culi 26d agoPossibly! It seems more likely that migrants brought rice cultivation. Or maybe a mixture of both. Maybe some "I wonder how we could grow that here. Lemme visit that new community of immigrants" In Sicily and Spain, rice cultivation began because Islamic expansion brought advanced irrigation and cultivation techniques. It's called the "Arab Agricultural Revolution"
- thaumasiotes 27d agoIf it's any consolation, their lambs were nothing like ours. This period is early enough that sheep weren't yet sheared.
- fsloth 26d agoOh! So were sheep just for meat back then?
- eru 26d agoMaybe also for leather? And in nature sheep drop their coats without shearing.
- wolfi1 26d agodo they? there are reports of lost sheep which when found had a very thick fur or whatever the shepherds call it
- eru 26d agoSorry, when I said in nature, I meant undomesticated sheep. Domesticated sheep that get lost for a while don't magically learn how to shed their coat, yes.
- ErroneousBosh 26d agoPretty much all domesticated sheep will cast their fleeces. There are some breeds that don't, and obviously due to random genetics you'll get individuals that don't. Sheep that don't cast their fleeces are damn near impossible to shear and are mostly kept for meat. Likewise, sheep that don't have much of a "rise" (see my other comment) and are difficult to shear quite often, uh, don't have a particularly long career, as it were.
- AdamN 26d agoMan shearing this one is a pain in the a$$. Hand me the sticking knife ...
- gyanchawdhary 26d agoIntresting. In Hindi/urdu it’s called “chukandar”
- rahulmax 26d agousername checks out
- chakintosh 26d agoIn arabic they are called "Shamandar"