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What’s the implication here? Trump actually isn’t corrupt? Or Biden was actually secretly as corrupt as Trump is? Or more generally, the current state of affai

by datsci_est_2015 21d ago

What’s the implication here? Trump actually isn’t corrupt? Or Biden was actually secretly as corrupt as Trump is? Or more generally, the current state of affairs is somehow justifiable?

ozozozd 21d ago
As long as Biden <or insert new candidate> isn’t squeaky clean, no one on the other side can be blamed with any degree of corruption. In other words: “I don’t have to do the right thing until everyone else does the right thing.” do - it’s ok for me to be corrupt - because there is at least one person that’s also corrupt while(len(corrupt) != 0) In short, they are ok with corruption.
- nonethewiser 21d ago
  Yeah the retort ("Well Trump is more corrupt") shows it. Both things can be true.
paisawalla 21d ago
The implication is that even if I might agree with you, we ought not be subjecting each other to incoherent rants in lieu of substantive arguments. Just don't say anything, if the only thing you have to say is They Watch Fox News. Even if you're inclined to believe the conclusions, this should recognizably be a silly rant and I don't want to live in a world where we justify sloppy arguments if we agree with the conclusions. If it triggers your defenses to the point where you can't see that this is a poor rant, it could be instructive to copy/paste it into an LLM and ask for an analysis or some counterarguments. > Trump actually isn’t corrupt? Or Biden was actually secretly as corrupt as Trump is? Incredible to me that you could think this is anywhere implied. Maybe you understand something better than I do, but I submit that it's brainrot to think my comment was somehow "Trump is not corrupt and/or Biden is equally corrupt". However, the question of whose corruption rises to the level where a person is morally suspect if they don't speak out, is one that certainly cuts conveniently, isn't it?
- bluefirebrand 21d ago
  > Maybe you understand something better than I do, but I submit that it's brainrot to think my comment was somehow "Trump is not corrupt and/or Biden is equally corrupt". I don't really think you realize how that initial post comes across, because I'm re-reading your previous and struggling to come up with any other interpretation besides "both sides are bad". If you are intending to say something different than that, maybe try stating it directly rather than sarcastically
- datsci_est_2015 21d ago
  When you vaguepost, you shouldn't be surprised when you receive follow-up comments asking for clarification, which was what I was doing. The most charitable interpretation, as another commenter noted, was that you were essentially saying "both sides bad". > Even if you're inclined to believe the conclusions, this should recognizably be a silly rant ... If it triggers your defenses to the point where you can't see that this is a poor rant, it could be instructive to copy/paste it into an LLM and ask for an analysis or some counterarguments. It seems to be triggering your defenses as well, to be frank. The primary claim: > "A big reason that Republican voters were able to justify voting for Trump and open corruption was that they were bombarded with claims that there was a "Biden crime family" in office for four years." Is essentially how I'm keeping my sanity living amongst people who voted for Trump. The only way I could find it justifiable is that somehow people believed that corruption wouldn't be this bad, or it was just as bad under Biden. I also know that there's a large contingent of nihilistic, psychopathic, "libertarian", chauvinistic technocrats that probably had no problem voting for Trump because they genuinely believed they would be able to make more money under a Trump presidency rather than a Harris presidency - but I choose to believe there are more people who were misled about relative corruption levels rather than pure psychopaths.
  - paisawalla 20d ago
    I don't know how to say this except by repeating myself: I recommend you ask a thoughtful person, or a capable LLM, to argue against "a big reason that ... [ad hominem patronization presented without evidence]" In the age of LLMs, it's pure negligence to let your perspective be this uninformed and low-resolution. And it's violence against the attentions of others to share it with them, to be hyperbolic. If this is your honest, best faith rendering why 50% of the country votes differently than you, then I recommend you leave politics alone. If you won't try and understand why people are the way they are, and instead are going with "they're all too stupid to know they're being fooled, unlike me" then yes, this is an unhealthy worldview which can damage your sanity.
nonethewiser 21d ago
But the poll asks if corruption is widespread. Trump could be 100x as corrupt as Biden and it says nothing about if corruption is widespread.
- patagurbon 21d ago
  100x is dramatically undercounting here. The most corrupt things Biden has done were: 1. Hide the extent of health issues. Par for the course in politics at this point for some reason. This is broadly just downstream of him believing he could continue before a precipitous health decline as election season began 2. Pardon his son who was teed up by the Republican world to be target number 1 for low level drug and tax charges. Trump on the other hand has made literally billions of dollars since starting his presidency, not to mention the fortunes of his family and various associates. 100x is not even just a few orders of magnitude off.

What’s the implication here? Trump actually isn’t corrupt? Or Biden was actually secretly as corrupt as Trump is? Or more generally, the current state of affairs is somehow justifiable?

ozozozd 21d ago

As long as Biden <or insert new candidate> isn’t squeaky clean, no one on the other side can be blamed with any degree of corruption. In other words: “I don’t have to do the right thing until everyone else does the right thing.” do - it’s ok for me to be corrupt - because there is at least one person that’s also corrupt while(len(corrupt) != 0) In short, they are ok with corruption.

nonethewiser 21d ago
Yeah the retort ("Well Trump is more corrupt") shows it. Both things can be true.

paisawalla 21d ago

The implication is that even if I might agree with you, we ought not be subjecting each other to incoherent rants in lieu of substantive arguments. Just don't say anything, if the only thing you have to say is They Watch Fox News. Even if you're inclined to believe the conclusions, this should recognizably be a silly rant and I don't want to live in a world where we justify sloppy arguments if we agree with the conclusions. If it triggers your defenses to the point where you can't see that this is a poor rant, it could be instructive to copy/paste it into an LLM and ask for an analysis or some counterarguments. > Trump actually isn’t corrupt? Or Biden was actually secretly as corrupt as Trump is? Incredible to me that you could think this is anywhere implied. Maybe you understand something better than I do, but I submit that it's brainrot to think my comment was somehow "Trump is not corrupt and/or Biden is equally corrupt". However, the question of whose corruption rises to the level where a person is morally suspect if they don't speak out, is one that certainly cuts conveniently, isn't it?

bluefirebrand 21d ago
> Maybe you understand something better than I do, but I submit that it's brainrot to think my comment was somehow "Trump is not corrupt and/or Biden is equally corrupt". I don't really think you realize how that initial post comes across, because I'm re-reading your previous and struggling to come up with any other interpretation besides "both sides are bad". If you are intending to say something different than that, maybe try stating it directly rather than sarcastically
datsci_est_2015 21d ago
When you vaguepost, you shouldn't be surprised when you receive follow-up comments asking for clarification, which was what I was doing. The most charitable interpretation, as another commenter noted, was that you were essentially saying "both sides bad". > Even if you're inclined to believe the conclusions, this should recognizably be a silly rant ... If it triggers your defenses to the point where you can't see that this is a poor rant, it could be instructive to copy/paste it into an LLM and ask for an analysis or some counterarguments. It seems to be triggering your defenses as well, to be frank. The primary claim: > "A big reason that Republican voters were able to justify voting for Trump and open corruption was that they were bombarded with claims that there was a "Biden crime family" in office for four years." Is essentially how I'm keeping my sanity living amongst people who voted for Trump. The only way I could find it justifiable is that somehow people believed that corruption wouldn't be this bad, or it was just as bad under Biden. I also know that there's a large contingent of nihilistic, psychopathic, "libertarian", chauvinistic technocrats that probably had no problem voting for Trump because they genuinely believed they would be able to make more money under a Trump presidency rather than a Harris presidency - but I choose to believe there are more people who were misled about relative corruption levels rather than pure psychopaths.
- paisawalla 20d ago
  I don't know how to say this except by repeating myself: I recommend you ask a thoughtful person, or a capable LLM, to argue against "a big reason that ... [ad hominem patronization presented without evidence]" In the age of LLMs, it's pure negligence to let your perspective be this uninformed and low-resolution. And it's violence against the attentions of others to share it with them, to be hyperbolic. If this is your honest, best faith rendering why 50% of the country votes differently than you, then I recommend you leave politics alone. If you won't try and understand why people are the way they are, and instead are going with "they're all too stupid to know they're being fooled, unlike me" then yes, this is an unhealthy worldview which can damage your sanity.

nonethewiser 21d ago

But the poll asks if corruption is widespread. Trump could be 100x as corrupt as Biden and it says nothing about if corruption is widespread.

patagurbon 21d ago
100x is dramatically undercounting here. The most corrupt things Biden has done were: 1. Hide the extent of health issues. Par for the course in politics at this point for some reason. This is broadly just downstream of him believing he could continue before a precipitous health decline as election season began 2. Pardon his son who was teed up by the Republican world to be target number 1 for low level drug and tax charges. Trump on the other hand has made literally billions of dollars since starting his presidency, not to mention the fortunes of his family and various associates. 100x is not even just a few orders of magnitude off.