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Aging brains blend memories together instead of just forgetting them
- enragebait 2mo ago[flagged]
- yhjc2692 2mo agoEvidence?
- bigfishrunning 2mo agoSounds like something from https://sebpearce.com/bullshit/ https://sebpearce.com/bullshit/
- animanoir 2mo ago[dead]
- ahmoddie 2mo agotheir username is enragebait
- junon 2mo agoIt's an LLM bot user.
- enragebait 2mo agoNothing further from the truth. Ignore my account if you wish. The handling of memories as the corruption through conflation and obfuscation of the original is widely accountable. The part of the holographic memory is unexplored for obvious reasons (beyond modern scientific reach.) Many individuals extraordinary behaviors may be explained by the lack of neurological access by others, not information storage availability.
- PierceJoy 2mo ago/compact
- xnx 2mo agoIt's interesting to compare and contrast LLMs and biological brains. Both use a form of "compaction".
- voidhorse 2mo agoThat's largely because we intentionally model llm "brains" after the human brain.
- un-diletante 2mo agoCompaction is not even an intrinsic function of an LLM, but of it's harness or whatever code is calling it. When an LLM compacts something it's just creating a summary of the previous conversation using the same mechanism that it uses to generate any other text. It doesn't "forget" the text from before the summary, it just no longer receives it when it is invoked. In contrast, when we forget something we are not summarizing anything, we are just losing the ability to recall something. We might remember what we have forgotten later on, showing that it is still somewhere in the mind, and that the reason we have forgotten it is not necessarily because it has been discarded. Even then, what this article is talking about is not even normal forgetting as a function of the brain. It's talking about a degenerative and dysfunctional form of memory loss where different memories are confused with each other.
- dan-bailey 2mo agoThis comes as absolutely no surprise to me -- my mother was recently transferred into memory care, and the changes to her memories are definitely showing some interesting changes. The foremost was that her new "apartment" is shared with one other person, gives off a bit of a dorm room vibe. First day, she was talking about how excited she was to be going back to school and seeing her boyfriends again(?!). I said, "Oh, like Doug? [my dad]". Her response? "Ew. No." But, she's come around on that, and recently been upset about the affair he's been having (they divorced in 1980), and is irate over him having another kid with his new wife (1983), but isn't surprised that I haven't spoken to him in 12 years. She's never surprised at how I've aged, but doesn't remember her grandkids even exist and insists on meeting them soon (but remembers them when she sees them). Two weeks ago, she called to yell at me for things I did in high school (1990). At this point, I seem to be the anchor for everything recent, but when I'm not around physically, it's scattered everywhere else.
- barbazoo 2mo agoI feel for you. Even though it's entertaining to read, that must be really hard to go through for you.
- dan-bailey 1mo agoThank you. Surprisingly, less than you'd think. She started showing the first signs around 2020 or 2021, so by the time she had a diagnosis in 2023, I had pretty well wrapped my head around it. (Having a regular therapist has helped a bunch, too.). It's still tough, but that's a difficulty that's spread out over years rather than a sudden out-of-nowhere illness.
- Gooblebrai 2mo agoIs so fascinating and horrifying to read this. We still have to learn so much about how the brain works
- HarHarVeryFunny 2mo agoSorry to hear that - my dad spent the last few years of his life in a care home, and I can very much relate.
- petreradu 2mo agoThe paper certainly has its limitations. Only 61 participants, with almost nobody between 30 and 50, so we shouldn’t read the age trend as a decline across lifespan. What’s more interesting than the title suggests (and I find the title forcing the conclusion a bit) is that the attention measures were not linked to age or the brain patterns at all. Then again, i'm 45 and I've been losing my keys and my IDs since I was 20
- yborg 2mo ago>I find the title forcing the conclusion a bit The entire article is AI-generated.I wish such sources would include the prompting used as well as the model so a (human) reader can better evaluate the document.
- mdp2021 2mo ago> Reviewed by Patrisha Antonaros There is a responsible signer. If you think their method can be improved, write at https://studyfinds.com/contact/ https://studyfinds.com/contact/ They disclose an "AI policy" - https://studyfinds.com/ai-policy/ https://studyfinds.com/ai-policy/ > This process includes multiple checks using different LLM platforms, human editorial verification, and cross-referencing with original sources to ensure accuracy and eliminate false information, misleading content, fabricated content, bias, and unreasonable speculations or editorialization
- snarfy 2mo agoMy dreams imprint stronger than reality. This has the unfortunate effect of sometimes recalling memories as real, when in fact it was all a dream.
- thataccount 2mo agoUnless the dreams are the reality and the reality is the fake!
- Gooblebrai 2mo agoThe new version of this tale is that reality is a simulation. Reality being a dream is so 4th Century China
- alchemism 2mo agoThat’s also what happens at around ~1200 micrograms
- rbanffy 2mo agoA less traveled road to a cool story would be that, while dreaming, you are experiencing unfiltered realities from many nearby timelines simultaneously (hence the fluidity of the reality of dreams, where things change from a moment to the next). I recently had a very curious experience - my in-dream me recalled a memory from a past dream. It was a really strange feeling that definitely added to the "realism" of the dream.
- t23414321 2mo agoHappened to me, induced chemically when I experimented with lucid dreaming. It was to scary so I stopped it.
- leedrake5 2mo agoCompacting ———-~~~~~~~ 40%
- DonHopkins 2mo agoDeticulating splines...
- bdamm 2mo agoRetrocompomorphism
- Madmallard 2mo agoThis a covert op to buttress LLM support by planting this article and having people say it's just like compacting. The hype is getting more elaborate.
- HarHarVeryFunny 2mo agoI wonder how much of this is directly related to age (biological aging), and how much is just someone's brain becoming "full" due to more memories getting added every year? It seems that memories must be stored as embeddings with single multi-neuron assemblies (cortical columns?) storing multiple embeddings as a kind of contents-addressable memory that is able to keep memories distinct due to the very high dimensional space (# neurons per assembly) being used. However, you'd expect that at some point if you store too many memories in a single assembly the recall accuracy is going to go down. You'd expect that with big brains being so costly, evolution has only equipped us with brains big enough to store a lifetime of memories, so it would be odd if memory didn't suffer as we get old. To make a computer analogy, it's a bit like a hash table getting too full. Say you had a hash table without any overflow mechanism... up to a point recall may still be pretty good, but as the table gets closer to full there will be more hash collisions and likelyhood of "false recall". Obviously the brain is not a computer, but the analogy may hold up reasonably well if you consider the hash table keys and values as embeddings and the store operation being an embedding merge rather than overwrite.
- cheschire 2mo agoI am not a biologist so I cannot say this authoritatively, but I’m fairly certain that’s not how neuroplasticity works.
- HarHarVeryFunny 2mo agoI only mentioned neural assemblies storing multiple embeddings - what about that contradicts your understanding of neuroplasticity?
- dboreham 2mo agoHow so?
- randomImmigrant 2mo agoThe brain does not have the Von Neumann bottleneck. Unlike most current digital systems, the brain doesn’t have a separate memory registry it needs to pull from. Engrams, that is, the physical trace of a memory, are not stable through life. They start out in the hippocampus, but as the stimulus recedes in time without reinforcement, it moves away. No evidence exists though that the memory is encoded in one set of cells. This spatial segregation of memory is the worst hangover from the “brain is a computer” analogy. Even if it is, why in the world would it be like our digital devices which specifically have the Von Neumann bottleneck? In biology, memory and processing are not segregated. There’s growing evidence the memory is much more distributed over the network, and is recomposed based on salience overlap with a new stimulus. Another factor to keep in mind is circadian rhythms. There’s growing evidence for how much the memory system and timekeeping system overlap, at a molecular level. Every neuron (and other cell) has an intrinsic clock that ticks at roughly 24 hours, and continues to do so even in total darkness. When you encode the memory has a lot to say, based on your chronotype, on how and how well you will remember it. Same with learning: there’s a time of day based variation. Sleep, and dreaming, is when these memories seem to get replayed and critical features and connections are incorporated into the system and its regime, awaiting the right triggers to access a state similar to when the memory formed. I’m stitching across a lot of different research, and I want to be clear many aspects of this system are not yet fully worked out. But what we do know points to a system that works with different physical and algorithmic priors, and the dynamics are sharply distinct from current digital computers.
- rhdunn 2mo agoMy theory behind this is that when you encounter something new/novel it is distinct enough to remember -- where you were when you learned of 9/11; the days around the start of covid/lockdowns; being in a car accident; getting married; etc.. However, when you experience the same thing repetitively -- having breakfast; getting ready for school/work/etc. -- it doesn't make sense for your brain to remember each of these events as distinct events but to mush them together into a single or combined memory. This may be due to how the brain indexes/references memories and that memories with the same references get combined together. This is also partly why time appears to go faster when you get older -- the same day-to-day events blend together but the key milestones (holidays, etc.) stick out.
- Kinrany 2mo agoWe do know that memories get rewritten every time they are remembered
- xpct 2mo agoBy 'rewritten' do you mean refreshed, like learning material with spaced repetition, or some different/deeper concept? Do we 'move' that information to a different cluster of neurons?
- Kinrany 1mo agoI don't know the mechanics! Just the observation that memories recalled many times tend to change more. It kind of makes sense in that we do not retain the raw information, it's always interpreted, and it needs to be updated to be in line with other things we know.
- VCFundedGenYer 2mo agoFYI this is LLM slop. Consider the information to be entirely unfounded.
- mdp2021 2mo agoWhat, the paper from Mekbib and McDonough, or the divulgation from Antonaros? Supposing it is the submitted (under Antonaros), see https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=49538906 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=49538906
- randomImmigrant 2mo agoHow much of this, I wonder, is a function of the fact that our circadian rhythms get less robust with aging. The circadian clock hugely influences learning and memory processes, gating when you can learn and how much, and shaping the storage and recall also. We know that with age the amplitude of these rhythms can decrease, as can the synchrony between cells. This kind of mid-management seems to have at least some circadian component, and it would have been great if they looked to see if the effects were equally bad at all times of day, and knew the chronotype of the participants to use as a reference. I’d love to see if every test participant was tested at their cognitive peak, too.
- the_real_cher 2mo agoAs a person who used to be a super genius then turned 40 and is now only a regular genius aging has been very hard to get used to.
- aff-vasileva 2mo agoDon’t worry. By 60 you’ll remember being a super genius again — with increasingly convincing evidence.
- the_real_cher 2mo agoI think at 60 the definition for super genius just changes to "having regular poops".
- layer8 2mo agoClearly the hash table is filling up so you get more hash collisions.
- layer8 2mo agoFor those getting locked out due to using an ad blocker: https://archive.ph/rPdSW https://archive.ph/rPdSW And the actual study: https://academic.oup.com/cercor/article/36/7/bhag114/8758582 https://academic.oup.com/cercor/article/36/7/bhag114/8758582
- smath 2mo agoHuffman Coding! :-)
- andsoitis 2mo agoWorth keeping in mind also is that memories are not a reliable facsimile of objective reality. Instead, they are selective representations of parts of a subjective experience. It also means that memories aren’t static, but shift over time and can even be imagined.
- giancarlostoro 2mo agoThis I belive, I used to have intimate knowledge of my niche internet lore and keep learning I am blending years around.
- MarkusWandel 2mo agoBeing an "aging brain" myself I can totally relate to this. I've been a relatively obsessive photographer (i.e. visual diary) since digital cameras were practical, i.e. over 25 years now. 238K photos in the collection so far, and I can actually find things in it. And I've more than once found that an anecdote I've been telling has been incorrect, precisely in a "melded memories" kind of way. It happened at this sort of gathering which were usually held for that reason so X was involved... and then finally look at the old pictures and there's no sign of X. It is literally the brain invoking "lossy compression" to make it all fit, just like certain web services that let you upload pictures without limit might reduce old ones, that hardly anyone ever looks at any more, to lower quality to limit storage bloat. Of course any married man can confirm that this only applies to men. Women's memories are flawless. If they claim that they remember a conversation exactly, word for word, 20 years later, who's to prove them wrong?
- deleted 2mo ago[deleted]
- YesBox 2mo agoJust throwing out an idea: I recently stumbled upon an old-school website where someone is uploading a photo of their day (almost) every single day since 1998. Came across screen captures of the original Everquest (SO COOL) and other games, photos of anime/cosplay events, city shots, family, friends, etc. Really fun for them, and fun for people who like me who still enjoy surfing the web. edit: Screencap of an Everquest screencap for funsies: https://imgur.com/a/HUqc6p5 https://imgur.com/a/HUqc6p5
- MarkusWandel 2mo agoWhen my mom was still alive and relatively new to a smartphone (at age 80) I decided to send her some sort of relevant picture every day via Whatsapp, to get her used to communicating that way. Sometimes it was a real stretch to come up with something. But yes, this forces you to evaluate your life from that viewpoint "surely something was interesting today? Let's keep a picture of it". Even if it's just what I'm having for lunch that day. But she's gone now and so is that habit.
- ang_cire 2mo agoI feel that anyone who has cared for someone with progressive brain degeneration has seen this a million times. My grandmother has dementia, and if you know her you can see exactly which events/memories she's erroneously combining.
- analog8374 2mo agoThings seen at a distance blend together, as opposed to just disappearing. So that's an interesting parallel. Says something about memory.
- jodrellblank 2mo agoThe past is 186,000 miles per second away.
- baruz 2mo agoAnecdatum: I confidently told a woman that her son, who was looking for a research opportunity in Berne, Switzerland, was heading for the birthplace of the World Wide Web, which is actually a couple of hours west and south at CERN.
- rectang 2mo agoThe concept of memories blending together resonates after watching a recent Kurzgezadt video entitled "How Are Memories Stored Inside Your Brain?". It makes the point that the very act of recalling a memory changes it: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PqtggjVAi8M https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PqtggjVAi8M > But memories are not static like photos. Like dioramas made from wax, each time they’re under the spotlight of your attention they can melt and change a tiny bit.
- darepublic 2mo agoVery poetic metaphor!
- BariumBlue 2mo agoI suspect my oldest memory, of me getting into a booster car seat as a child, is no longer the actual memory, but the accumulated imaginings of me trying to remember that specific memory, masquerading as a memory.
- thenthenthen 2mo agoMy earliest memory… turned out to be a videoclip I discovered 20 years later… I really thought I experienced this!
- efilife 1mo agowhat was it?
- odyssey7 2mo agoComet Hale-Bopp is definitely a case of this for me. Although I remember a few interesting things about the process of seeing it, I have no idea of what it looked like to me. I can remember the neighbors standing slightly in our yard and then explaining to my parents the comet and pointing it out to us. I can remember at some points that followed being aware of the parallax effect as it seemed to appear on either side of my other neighbors’ house as I walked up and down the driveway. But just a year or so later, I knew that the picture in my memory was more like an illustration of a comet. The accurate image was completely gone even though the memories surrounding it remained, and in the place of that image was something that I had imagined.
- deleted 2mo ago[deleted]
- sorenKaram 2mo agoI feel like we didn't need a study to tell us this but its always nice when science confirms something we know to be true.
- ngvrnd 2mo agothe basins merge
- Fr0styMatt88 2mo agoI have some memories that I know for a fact are wrong in a pretty particular way. They’ve either become attached to the wrong place or the wrong time. Like I remember a good friend picking me up from my childhood home, yet I didn’t even know that person until I’d long moved out (many years) from that place.
- tempo123456 2mo agoGonna chuck a thought for you all. In social situations there is someone who talks alot and I think they are able to do so because they have lots of stories they can recall in good detail (maybe not perfect) but 20 year old event they are describing better than I can describe last week. Now I assume they don't have that rare calendar level memory but they do have a huge storage of stories and events. I am pretty jealous tbh! Also that skill is probably excellent for interviews which is the ultimate memory test. I.e. Tell me a time when you turned water to wine, plus 5 deeper questions, any hesitation will be chalked ip as suspicious AI use. For me I either do or I remember which makes performance management and interviews hard for me (as someone vouching for someone as evidence is rare now).
- hattmall 2mo agoI have a few friends and family members like that and for the stories which I was present, they always hit the broad strokes, but the finer details get switched around and sometimes the whole story has a major perspective shift.
- annzabelle 2mo agoIt's interesting for interviews. I assume that people who have somewhat inaccurate memories but with a (possibly subconscious) egotistical filter do much better in interviews than those of us who have more accurate memories of exactly what our contributions to a project were. There are a lot of ways of stretching the truth in your favor, and they all seem much more natural if you really believe them. My friend recently told me about seeing that an old coworker of hers from 20 years ago described her role as HR manager rather than HR assistant on her LinkedIn. I can easily see how someone with a fallible memory can retroactively exaggerate their title or responsibilities, especially when it's been 20 years.
- a96 2mo agoI also wonder how much difference it makes how often those stories have been recalled for telling or reminiscing or because there's a reminder (like a photo) that brings it up. Maybe people who practice telling stories also get better at telling stories.
- MaxfordAndSons 2mo agoI can't wait to tell my dad about this study. We recently got into a heated debate when he insisted that I was a toddler on a family vacation we were reminiscing about, when in fact I was a teenager on that particular vacation, and he was mashing it together with memories of a different vacation. He is 75 but is in pretty good cognitive health, no signs of dementia besides this unreliable long term memory.
- wefzyn 2mo agoIs it aging or the extra amount of information on the brain? If a young man is in a coma and wakes up as an old man will he experience the blend memories or will he remember things just as they were when he remembered them as a young man? There's also the issue of the more we remember something the more we change it. Which could contribute to the blended memories.
- boorang 2mo agoi had the same thought about to much information in the brain. this is why you don't use /compact and should prefer a fresh session.
- theNotFractured 2mo agoDid they really need a ai image for this article? https://stock.adobe.com/images/elderly-man-with-illuminated-brain-depicting-neurological-activity-and-cognitive-processes/1134022726 https://stock.adobe.com/images/elderly-man-with-illuminated-...
- jhoechtl 2mo agoSo generalisation of concepts going to far?