4 ms·

Accusations of Chinese dumping are cheap and easy to make, but the evidence is pretty mixed. Most actual cases have been of raw materials (eg steel, yarn) and

by nl 1mo ago

Accusations of Chinese dumping are cheap and easy to make, but the evidence is pretty mixed. Most actual cases have been of raw materials (eg steel, yarn) and industrial chemicals. I think this is a long way from the alleged "tsunami of Chinese goods". It's also worth noting that many Chinese manufactured goods would mostly substitute for US manufactured goods (eg cars). That's actually the whole point.

gonesilent 1mo ago
It showed up in Africa along some of the Belt and road initiative items. Lined with Chinese sellers, Raising chickens and selling Chinese goods.
newsomix9xl 1mo ago
China is accused of dumping cars too: https://euobserver.com/226294/eu-warns-europes-car-industry-in-mortal-danger-from-subsidised-chinese-dumping/ https://euobserver.com/226294/eu-warns-europes-car-industry-...
- hvb2 1mo ago
  Selling at a loss to capture market share, isn't that part of every SV startup? What makes it so bad in this case?
  - phainopepla2 1mo ago
    Heavy subsidies by the state.
    - disgruntledphd2 1mo ago
      Surely if this is a problem, then heavy subsidies from private capital is also a problem? If there's a difference, I haven't heard a good explanation of it.
      - to11mtm 1mo ago
        TBH I agree with you, even mentioned it in my other reply. Modern China is not like the Soviet Union; it is much closer to a capitalistic society, but instead of private equity there is a (heavier than even the most 'socialist' of EU nations) government planning push. In some ways, one could argue they're just taking lessons learned from all of the current systems and applying them aggressively in their centralized planning. As someone who has lived in/around the heart of the 'Arsenal of Democracy' for my whole life, gotta say they are taking better lessons learned than the US has.
  - SpicyLemonZest 1mo ago
    It's not "so bad in this case". The domestic version is called "predatory pricing" and is illegal. In practice, it's easier to raise anti-dumping complaints than predatory pricing cases, both because the producers don't vote in your country and because the complaint doesn't have to be proven in a court of law.
- tough 1mo ago
  If they have happy customers buying them is the dumping just a shibboleth for just "they're taking our national companies market share"
  - newsomix9xl 1mo ago
    That is a very short term perspective. National companies often employ locally and pay taxes and have a stake in your long term interest. A hostile power - and China to the US is a hostile power - has no such stake. Quite the opposite.
    - bigyabai 1mo ago
      > National companies often employ locally and pay taxes and have a stake in your long term interest > A hostile power [...] has no such stake. As someone that grew up in Detroit, reading this is basically equivalent to science-fiction for me. If you think domestic companies have some sort of special stake in your country, you're misinformed.
      - newsomix9xl 1mo ago
        I'm sorry our educational system has not made the differences between bad faith companies and dictatorship clearer. Let me put it this way: American companies sell you a bad car and lay you off to give a CEO a bonus. Chinese dictatorships put you into reeducation camps if you're a Muslim dissident or unapproved member of a religion. China tells the Catholic Church who to appoint as bishops and the Pope spends his time criticizing...anyone but China. China pumps metrics tons of drug precursors onto the black market which accidentally find their way into Mexican drug labs and...are imported into Detroit. China backs our national enemies because they are friends to anyone who opposes us. China funds Russia. China buys Iranian oil. Chinese hackers steal US trade secrets. And on and on.
        bigyabai 1mo ago
        You just described it yourself. American companies will build a Cybertruck, blame their customers, cancel a $25,000 EV, and then lay off employees for Elon's ketamine/AIPAC shill fund. China has their own Abu Ghraib moments swept under the carpet, but their workers accept it for the same reason America ignored Seymour Hersh. Their middle class is growing, the Chinese economy has vast surpluses and market leverage that only America has ever enjoyed. Their asymmetric warfare stealing IP, from Texas Instruments to ARM to Lockheed Martin went unpunished. The Chinese intelligence agency, through Salt Typhoon, probably has more blackmail on American politicians than the Mossad does. From a Chinese perspective, the war is won. They're supporting the winning side in Ukraine since both US administrations rebuffed full NATO intervention. They're supporting the winning side in Iran after the IRGC proved they can disable planes, drones and ships with Chinese hardware. When the United States calls Canada a "51st state" or renames border territories to manufacture leverage, it's not helping China lose. They're undermining the trade agreements that all of North America relies on, and strengthening China's case as a reliable alternative to America's fickle export restrictions. In that sense, humanitarian outrage is almost an advantage; why would Pakistan, Iran or Russia worry about ethical reprisal from China if they're equally amoral?
- nl 1mo ago
  Politicians accuse China of many things. I'd note the lack of evidence presented there, at least in the part I could read.
to11mtm 1mo ago
The thing people tend to handwave about China's manufacturing prowess is that they have spent the last 25-ish years getting really good at 'making things to a spec' at a cost in-line with their labor market, being bolstered by their government's approach at Economy planning (i.e. subsidizing certain industries, required partnership agreements when foreign companies want to use that labor market to build things). The quality of the product you get, like always, is about what people are willing to pay. The big difference is that the current cost of labor/material inputs there, is low enough that you can get the same or often better quality for less. I wouldn't call that dumping. And to be clear, yeah they've done dumping in some cases. But when we look at what's happened in the last 8 months or so around various AI SaaS-ish offerings, one could argue that plenty of US companies have done 'dumping with extra steps'. (And that's not even the first time necessarily, e.x. the DoorDash Pizza Arbitrage thought experiment...) > It's also worth noting that many Chinese manufactured goods would mostly substitute for US manufactured goods (eg cars). Heck, GM was (although they are moving it due to the Tariffs AFAIR) building the Buick Envision (Compact CUV) in China and shipping it to the US for sale. GM Announced in January that they'd move production to the US by 2028. Similar for The Lincoln Nautilus (Midsize CUV), The current Gen is built in China and they only in the last month announced that they would move production back to the US... by 2030.
MisterTea 1mo ago
Garlic dumping. Those little socks of 4 or 5 bulbs sold for a dollar-something are from China (notice the tops are chopped off so they cant sprout.) I buy domestic garlic because it's fucking stupid to import something that's so easy to grow.

by nl 1mo ago

gonesilent 1mo ago

It showed up in Africa along some of the Belt and road initiative items. Lined with Chinese sellers, Raising chickens and selling Chinese goods.

newsomix9xl 1mo ago

China is accused of dumping cars too: https://euobserver.com/226294/eu-warns-europes-car-industry-in-mortal-danger-from-subsidised-chinese-dumping/ https://euobserver.com/226294/eu-warns-europes-car-industry-...

hvb2 1mo ago
Selling at a loss to capture market share, isn't that part of every SV startup? What makes it so bad in this case?
- phainopepla2 1mo ago
  Heavy subsidies by the state.
  - disgruntledphd2 1mo ago
    Surely if this is a problem, then heavy subsidies from private capital is also a problem? If there's a difference, I haven't heard a good explanation of it.
    - to11mtm 1mo ago
      TBH I agree with you, even mentioned it in my other reply. Modern China is not like the Soviet Union; it is much closer to a capitalistic society, but instead of private equity there is a (heavier than even the most 'socialist' of EU nations) government planning push. In some ways, one could argue they're just taking lessons learned from all of the current systems and applying them aggressively in their centralized planning. As someone who has lived in/around the heart of the 'Arsenal of Democracy' for my whole life, gotta say they are taking better lessons learned than the US has.
- SpicyLemonZest 1mo ago
  It's not "so bad in this case". The domestic version is called "predatory pricing" and is illegal. In practice, it's easier to raise anti-dumping complaints than predatory pricing cases, both because the producers don't vote in your country and because the complaint doesn't have to be proven in a court of law.
tough 1mo ago
If they have happy customers buying them is the dumping just a shibboleth for just "they're taking our national companies market share"
- newsomix9xl 1mo ago
  That is a very short term perspective. National companies often employ locally and pay taxes and have a stake in your long term interest. A hostile power - and China to the US is a hostile power - has no such stake. Quite the opposite.
  - bigyabai 1mo ago
    > National companies often employ locally and pay taxes and have a stake in your long term interest > A hostile power [...] has no such stake. As someone that grew up in Detroit, reading this is basically equivalent to science-fiction for me. If you think domestic companies have some sort of special stake in your country, you're misinformed.
    - newsomix9xl 1mo ago
      I'm sorry our educational system has not made the differences between bad faith companies and dictatorship clearer. Let me put it this way: American companies sell you a bad car and lay you off to give a CEO a bonus. Chinese dictatorships put you into reeducation camps if you're a Muslim dissident or unapproved member of a religion. China tells the Catholic Church who to appoint as bishops and the Pope spends his time criticizing...anyone but China. China pumps metrics tons of drug precursors onto the black market which accidentally find their way into Mexican drug labs and...are imported into Detroit. China backs our national enemies because they are friends to anyone who opposes us. China funds Russia. China buys Iranian oil. Chinese hackers steal US trade secrets. And on and on.
      - bigyabai 1mo ago
        You just described it yourself. American companies will build a Cybertruck, blame their customers, cancel a $25,000 EV, and then lay off employees for Elon's ketamine/AIPAC shill fund. China has their own Abu Ghraib moments swept under the carpet, but their workers accept it for the same reason America ignored Seymour Hersh. Their middle class is growing, the Chinese economy has vast surpluses and market leverage that only America has ever enjoyed. Their asymmetric warfare stealing IP, from Texas Instruments to ARM to Lockheed Martin went unpunished. The Chinese intelligence agency, through Salt Typhoon, probably has more blackmail on American politicians than the Mossad does. From a Chinese perspective, the war is won. They're supporting the winning side in Ukraine since both US administrations rebuffed full NATO intervention. They're supporting the winning side in Iran after the IRGC proved they can disable planes, drones and ships with Chinese hardware. When the United States calls Canada a "51st state" or renames border territories to manufacture leverage, it's not helping China lose. They're undermining the trade agreements that all of North America relies on, and strengthening China's case as a reliable alternative to America's fickle export restrictions. In that sense, humanitarian outrage is almost an advantage; why would Pakistan, Iran or Russia worry about ethical reprisal from China if they're equally amoral?
nl 1mo ago
Politicians accuse China of many things. I'd note the lack of evidence presented there, at least in the part I could read.

to11mtm 1mo ago

The thing people tend to handwave about China's manufacturing prowess is that they have spent the last 25-ish years getting really good at 'making things to a spec' at a cost in-line with their labor market, being bolstered by their government's approach at Economy planning (i.e. subsidizing certain industries, required partnership agreements when foreign companies want to use that labor market to build things). The quality of the product you get, like always, is about what people are willing to pay. The big difference is that the current cost of labor/material inputs there, is low enough that you can get the same or often better quality for less. I wouldn't call that dumping. And to be clear, yeah they've done dumping in some cases. But when we look at what's happened in the last 8 months or so around various AI SaaS-ish offerings, one could argue that plenty of US companies have done 'dumping with extra steps'. (And that's not even the first time necessarily, e.x. the DoorDash Pizza Arbitrage thought experiment...) > It's also worth noting that many Chinese manufactured goods would mostly substitute for US manufactured goods (eg cars). Heck, GM was (although they are moving it due to the Tariffs AFAIR) building the Buick Envision (Compact CUV) in China and shipping it to the US for sale. GM Announced in January that they'd move production to the US by 2028. Similar for The Lincoln Nautilus (Midsize CUV), The current Gen is built in China and they only in the last month announced that they would move production back to the US... by 2030.

MisterTea 1mo ago

Garlic dumping. Those little socks of 4 or 5 bulbs sold for a dollar-something are from China (notice the tops are chopped off so they cant sprout.) I buy domestic garlic because it's fucking stupid to import something that's so easy to grow.