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I doubt the Canadians want their economy flooded with Chinese goods ("dumping" - selling goods at less than cost) - which destroys local industry. This was pre
by newsomix9xl 2mo ago
I doubt the Canadians want their economy flooded with Chinese goods ("dumping" - selling goods at less than cost) - which destroys local industry.
This was predicted in The Economist awhile back, that if the US blocked Chinese imports a tsunami of Chinese goods would flood other countries and now it's happening. Those countries will also, in turn, erect trade barriers, or suffer the devastation that massive Chinese dumping causes.
So it's a nice protest gesture, but it's a cutting off your nose to spite your face gesture.
- inigyou 2mo agoOh no! Cheap goods and services! Maybe some other governments will be smart enough to not let a massive influx of nearly free stuff make everyone materially worse off. In fact it seems like only a completely idiotic system would make people worse off for having more free stuff.
- rozal 2mo agooh no, lost jobs and and dying economy!
- LoganDark 2mo agoIt is genuinely impossible to compete in a market where alternatives are cheaper enough, just look at how Amazon Basics squeezes competitors out of business.
- BowBun 2mo agoThis is why free trade is important. We had a decent setup where countries were specializing in their own manufacturing/services specialties, and then we all paid each other for what we needed. Then some greedy fools decided they needed more, and started trying to charge more on the way out or on the way in. Now the ones that specialized in the 'must haves' of today have insane leverage over everyone else. Then the 'easy' answer is to prevent those goods from coming into your country. It's all so incredibly shortsighted, it deflates me.
- LoganDark 2mo agoWhat are you saying? If people all choose a shitty version from China, there will be no market for a good local version and businesses will stop trying. The investment required to match China's manufacturing capability in any area is simply impossible unless you say it is an AI data center.
- agileAlligator 2mo agoon what basis do you claim the local product is "good" if people are not choosing it?
- IAmBroom 2mo agoYou can manipulate the meaning of "good" to suit your purpose, but it generally refers to quality. Cost is a different aspect entirely. A one-dollar scoop of ice cream and a $100 scoop are both good.
- deleted 2mo ago[deleted]
- agileAlligator 2mo agoWhat is "quality"? What is the objective test of it? I have made my definition clear: if people are choosing a product consistently, it must be of some value to them. What is your definition?
- BowBun 2mo agoReal life isn't just "the shitty version from China", especially in 2026. Some of their products are better, some are worse. Nearly _all_ of our clothing comes from Asia, from low to high-end brands. I'm saying there's value in specializing, not every country needs to be able to make everything. The real issue is people weaponizing their specializations, in this case specifically the USA with its stupid trade moves.
- somenameforme 2mo ago
- nl 2mo ago> oh no, lost jobs and and dying economy! It worked for Australia (which has a fairly similar economy to Canada). It has led to a "Dutch disease" reliance on the resources sector in Australia, but that isn't radically different to the Australian economy before (mostly proportionally more coal & iron ore exports, less wool and grain)
- inigyou 2mo agoThat is a policy choice. Why do we need jobs if we're getting unlimited free stuff? The laws of physics aren't requiring us to - we are requiring us to.
- IAmBroom 2mo agoI was unaware that goods self-assembled without human intervention. Please, elaborate.
- inigyou 2mo agoOther humans. If other humans were giving you everything you need for free, why do you need a job?
- LoganDark 2mo agoTo afford things I merely want? To afford to support friends and partners?
- inigyou 2mo agoBut other people are giving you everything you want for free. Why do you need to afford it? What does it even mean to question whether you can afford something you already get unlimited amounts of for free?
- LoganDark 2mo agoYou said "everything you need". I need shelter, I need food and water, but I want powerful computing, fast internet, a phone with cell service, treats and snacks and etc. I want games to play with my friends, I want gifts to buy for my friends. I don't need those things, but they greatly contribute to my quality of life. Also: > What does it even mean to question whether you can afford something you already get unlimited amounts of for free? If I had unlimited money, my limiting resources would quickly become time and energy instead. So affording something would mean fitting it into my day/week/month/etc, and finding the energy for it. I have severe ADHD and executive dysfunction, so I don't always have the capacity for things I should be able to do.
- Barrin92 2mo agoprotectionism is what kills your economy because it cannot raise aggregate output. You can't "save jobs" in total, only a minority at the expense of the majority. When you raise tariffs on Chinese imports every consumer takes an economic hit, which otherwise would have gone to.. job creation and consumption. You'll have on net fewer jobs because you've made your country poorer. Not to mention, Canada being largely a service and resource extraction economy doesn't even really compete much with China.
- satvikpendem 2mo agoUse joint ventures just as China does.
- newsomix9xl 2mo agoIn which you have a non-optional deal with a state owned venture?
- satvikpendem 2mo agoDoesn't have to be state-owned but it probably helps if the state forces such a venture with their domestic companies. It's already occuring in many countries now that China is the dominant producer, such as Ford with Geely and Volkswagen with XPeng.
- bruce511 2mo agoHence the concept of trade partnerships. No country makes everything, and yes, there's lots of competition. Tarifs have existed since forever. Countries use them to protect local industries. But they've always been stable, and industry focused. Food production for example is worth protecting and Canada has tarifs on imported Dairy. Partnerships exist to protect local industries, promote exports, and give citizens access to cheap goods. It's a complex balance set up over time with lots of nuance and negotiating. Yes, sometimes tarifs kill a local industry as well. Lack of international competition let's local industry stagnate until it is dead. US ship building is a good example of this, and US Auto makers are trending in this direction. (Banning Chinese EVs is not bolstering the US EV production, it is causing the US manufacturers to ignore that market, and I don't think that ends well.) Tarifs are a powerful tool when wielded well. Alas right now the US in unstable. Local industries can't rely on tarifs existing next week, never mind 5 years from now. I'm not investing in a local hockey stick factory because the tarif could disappear at any time. In my country we get cheap solar panels from China. Frankly, let them sell below-cost if they like. (Hint, they're not below cost). We don't make them here, so cheap energy is good for all. The US negativity to Chinese goods seems to be around dumping (which happens, but not much), around quality (frankly much of it is very good) or around human rights. (Cause, you know, we bombed Iran to promote human rights...) I don't think Americans will suddenly love China. But the rest of the world is getting very cosy very quickly.
- Paradigma11 2mo agoBut China wants to make everything, that is the problem. It might also be the case that we misunderstand the state of the Chinese economy quite a bit. I heard an argument by an economist that the situation is mainly explained by the real estate crash. That was a ginormous event but the government basically just denied any big consequences. That did kill the credit market for a long time. Now Chinese consumer have little money to spend and China is forced to export their products, no matter the price to keep things going.
- hvb2 2mo ago> But China wants to make everything As long as a typical Chinese person is happy with a standard of living that is far below what an American expects, China will be way cheaper on labor. For most products, labor is a significant cost. For a lot of consumers, price is more important then where it's made. Maybe not what they say they think is important but when they actually decide. As a result, China will make almost everything, along with the rest of south east Asia. Basically, the lower price for products comes at the cost of exporting your own jobs. One is easy to reason about when making a purchase decision, the other is indirect and abstract. Which is why the former wins
- nl 2mo agoAccusations of Chinese dumping are cheap and easy to make, but the evidence is pretty mixed. Most actual cases have been of raw materials (eg steel, yarn) and industrial chemicals. I think this is a long way from the alleged "tsunami of Chinese goods". It's also worth noting that many Chinese manufactured goods would mostly substitute for US manufactured goods (eg cars). That's actually the whole point.
- gonesilent 2mo agoIt showed up in Africa along some of the Belt and road initiative items. Lined with Chinese sellers, Raising chickens and selling Chinese goods.
- newsomix9xl 2mo agoChina is accused of dumping cars too: https://euobserver.com/226294/eu-warns-europes-car-industry-in-mortal-danger-from-subsidised-chinese-dumping/ https://euobserver.com/226294/eu-warns-europes-car-industry-...
- hvb2 2mo agoSelling at a loss to capture market share, isn't that part of every SV startup? What makes it so bad in this case?
- phainopepla2 2mo agoHeavy subsidies by the state.
- disgruntledphd2 2mo agoSurely if this is a problem, then heavy subsidies from private capital is also a problem? If there's a difference, I haven't heard a good explanation of it.
- to11mtm 2mo ago
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- Henchman21 2mo agoSelling below price to capture a market is now somehow BAD? Isn’t this the bread & butter of cutthroat capitalism? Isn’t it something we do endlessly? But when the Chinese do it its “dumping”?
- xur17 2mo agoFor more complicated products, the fear is that this subsidy destroys all competition, and then you're dependent upon that country / company.
- Henchman21 2mo agoRight isn’t that the explicit goal of US companies? Why wouldn’t the same goal be ok for other nations to pursue? Hypocrisy is never a good look.
- saturn8601 2mo agoIt would be cool to have a native Canadian car company to defend and the only argument you can make for Chinese car dumping is that you dont want the only car companies remaining in the world to be Chinese. Thats a possibility yes since China has 100+ car companies, the population is overall declining in most western countries and there are already too many car companies for a shrinking pie of customers. But from Canada's point of view: they have already been threatened enough that im sure those remaining ford,gm and stellantis jobs might be gone eventually...so whats left? Maybe Canada can demand BYD open a car factory in Canada.
- to11mtm 2mo agoI'll be rude/bold enough to say that Canada's ability to argue around 'in-country' made goods has been eroded for decades; I will admit I'm going to point to a specific example; Canadian Bike makers have been able for at least a decade to get an unpainted frame from Taiwan/China/Etc, components from wherever, but so long as they painted the frame in canada and did final assembly in Canada... 'Made in Canada' alongside all of the tariff exemptions that came with that. > But from Canada's point of view: they have already been threatened enough that im sure those remaining ford,gm and stellantis jobs might be gone eventually... Guess you didn't hear about Brampton in the news, the Stellantis plant there might be on the chopping block...
- saturn8601 2mo agoYeah Canada has natural limitations bigger countries like the US does not have but still, I wonder if good negoiation and maybe a changing situation in regards to the US's declining prospects might allow Canada to swing a bit higher in the future and demand something like this. There is a skilled workforce in place as well so maybe that changes the calculus.
- zeryx 2mo agoI'm Canadian, the auto industry here died the moment trump started all of this tarrif talk in February, it just hasn't gotten cold yet. Because of the tarrif and trade war our local industries will struggle and collapse, there's nothing we can do about that - they were dependent on US trade partners and markets, the Canadian market is much smaller. We have massive productivity issues, there's little chance we'll successfully build our own auto industry. In the interim buying more from China doesn't really hurt us, and sends a strong signal to the remaining people who care about foreign policy in Washington that there are penalties to treating allies like enemies. I used to really strongly oppose Chinese expansion and the rise of cheap products getting dumped everywhere - I still do, but I oppose the US admin more; and at least they're stable and clear about what they want
- LakesAndTrees 2mo agoSeems pretty straightforward to me: Hey, China - start local plants and we’ll be happy to have as many EVs as we can build. After all, we’ll have plenty of idle auto workers.
- zeryx 2mo agoIf Chinese industry is willing to operate at a loss in order to poke the US in the eye, sure - markets too small and labor too expensive otherwise imo.