4 ms·

I also find deeply and even extremely ironic, that the same greenwashing radicals who bash ACs in Europe are then supporting "heat pumps" as a modern and effici

by Yizahi 2mo ago

I also find deeply and even extremely ironic, that the same greenwashing radicals who bash ACs in Europe are then supporting "heat pumps" as a modern and efficient heating device. There are even programs labelled as Eco or green or whatever the jargon of the day is, to subsidize or finance heat pumps. People are seemingly unaware that heat pumps are just an AC with a tiny additional valve in the pipes :) .

seanmcdirmid 2mo ago
Heat pumps are just ACs with a lot more energy efficiency. How does that make people hypocrites?
- numpad0 2mo ago
  No, heat pumps and ACs are exactly the same device. They add a button to the remote and series of valves in the machine to switch flow of refrigerant forward and reverse, and call it "heat pumps" for upsell. All air conditioners are technically heat pumps.
- raincom 2mo ago
  They just buy slogans from those who espouse efficiency. In a traditional AC unit, heat is produced by either electric strips or by a gas burner, no refrigeration circuit is involved in the heating cycle. So, just a blower motor runs, compressor (and condenser fan) never runs in the heating cycle. In heat pumps, refrigeration circuit does both heating and cooling. So, compressor works in both cycles.
  - seanmcdirmid 2mo ago
    How is that not just better since the power requirements are less? The whole point against conventional ACs and for what we call heat pumps is purely that they use less electricities (well, they can also heat and cool, so you don’t need two systems). People like heat pumps simply because they are more energy efficient. It isn’t guerrilla marketing making people like a new thing that is the same as the old thing.
    - raincom 2mo ago
      Heat pump = conventional AC - (heat strip/gas burner) + reversing the refrigeration circuit for the heat cycle + efficient ECM motor (for air blower) + VFD compressor (single phase to DC to three phase AC with variable frequency) + modern controls to manage both inside and outside motors. One can install an efficient AC unit with electric strips (gas burner) with "efficient ECM motor (for air blower) + VFD compressor (single phase to DC to three phase AC with variable frequency) + modern controls to manage both inside and outside motors." That's where modern AC units are driving at. Heat pump uses electricity for compressor fan and fan in that outdoor unit. In an efficient conventional AC unit, one trades the extra electricity used in the outside unit for the electricity used for heat strips. Geothermal heat pump is efficient and is a different ball game.
maybewhenthesun 2mo ago
Nothing ironic about that. Using an airco to cool a house is often (not always) a luxury that humans did without for centuries. So people are used to seeing cooling as luxury. Without heating you die. A heatpump is more energy efficient than most other forms of heating. A heatpump is not always the most efficient way to cool a house.
- ProfessorLayton 2mo ago
  Notice how you switch from "more energy efficient than most..." when talking about heating, but then switch to "is not always the most efficient..." when talking about cooling. Both are active temperature control, and both are much more efficient than previous forms of heating and cooling. There's also the fact that cooling uses much less energy than heating because the temperature differential is usually much less extreme. It takes less energy to go from 100F/37C > 75F/23C than it does to go from 32F/0C > 65F/18C.
  - maybewhenthesun 1mo ago
    There are ways to passively cool a house without airco. People have been building cool houses in hot climates for centuries. It doesn't always work, true. Once it is hot 24/7 and you don't have a source of cold anywhere you need airco. But it does explain why people consider airco a luxury item when used for cooling and not when used for heating. I'm not saying people are always right when considering cooling a luxury while considering heating a necessity, but there is a historical reason for that mindset.
- m463 2mo ago
  > that humans did without for centuries. I think building design/thermal mass and population density/location has changed quite a bit over the centuries.
  - maybewhenthesun 1mo ago
    True. And it's going to bite us in the ass pretty soon. Already does, actually.
sig-11 2mo ago
They are. They're also heating indoors up to 4x more efficiently than the best alternative. Nobody is opposing AC cooling for efficiency. The resistence to cooling with AC comes from way before HP became popular and remains, somehow. Part of it is because it's perceived as a luxury (while heating is not), partly because being relatively uncommon until recently its surprising for some people and therefore the perceived cause of illnesses and malaise. It'll go away. Because it's really vitally important, and because air/air HPs are perfect trojan horses to normalize AC cooling. .. That being said, I had to call 3 companies in Germany before I even found one willing to sell me a air/air HP. And the cooling function has to be carefully ignored if you want it subsidized.
- Yizahi 2mo ago
  > It'll go away. Because it's really vitally important, and because air/air HPs are perfect trojan horses to normalize AC cooling. I sincerely hope so. But the trouble is that politicians and activists are very fond of picking smaller targets for their negativity. Because it is easier to wage war on a regular mid to poor salary-man neighbor instead of some faceless corporation with the billions of cash, a staff of lawyers and incorporated half the world away in a jurisdiction with thoroughly corrupted judges. This is why we are seeing this avalanche of anti-social initiatives under the slogans of "progress". Like the insane fines for not following insane garbage sorting rules in some select countries, or the taxation levied on the individuals and small businesses instead of megacorps, or the whole legalized surveillance while rich people and corpos are excluded, or this AC insanity now (had any activist in EU protested under any business center that it should be without AC? Nope. But firing at individuals is easier and grants more satisfying results.
UncleMeat 2mo ago
The "get a heat pump" narrative is just saying that heat pumps are better than gas heating or electric resistive heating. It is not hypocritical to say "people who already have a furnace and an AC should get a heat pump" while also saying "people who don't have an AC should consider continuing to not have AC."
robocat 2mo ago
The biggest issue with greenies is that their goals tend to be overly idealistic. They don't compromise - even when a compromise would strictly improve the world. Well, most voters hate to make compromises but the greenies seem to do it harder. In NZ we have a very left wing Green Party who in theory could have power in a minority coalition with our "conservative" party. However politically it would never work. I think both parties veto working together, but New Zealand loses out on green progress because of that. Instead the Greens only make a coalition with the left, which is already quite green focused so the Greens remain rather impotent. Conservative greeny voters in New Zealand need better representation. Fortunately our heat pumps usually also have AC. I can only guess we don't have any insane rules about that because having a heatpump with AC has been normal for decades (AC isn't just for the hated tall-poppy wealthy: and very few have a dedicated aircon unit).
- Yizahi 2mo ago
  > They don't compromise - even when a compromise would strictly improve the world. This 100%. This what I recently articulated for myself about my dissatisfaction with certain groups of people who claim to be very progressive and so on. Some of those people are so radical that they are unwilling to compromise even on a tiny things. If they get to get 100% of something and other people get to get 50% of they want, or if they would compromise and both sets would get 90% or 95% or even sometimes 99% (both), they are absolutely unwilling to cease demanding strict 100%. Basically they claim to be pro-social, but if we think about the issue in general, they are the ones failing the prisoner's dilemma, just on the opposite side. Not willing to compromise on anything even if they do then humanity on average would win more.

by Yizahi 2mo ago

seanmcdirmid 2mo ago

Heat pumps are just ACs with a lot more energy efficiency. How does that make people hypocrites?

numpad0 2mo ago
No, heat pumps and ACs are exactly the same device. They add a button to the remote and series of valves in the machine to switch flow of refrigerant forward and reverse, and call it "heat pumps" for upsell. All air conditioners are technically heat pumps.
raincom 2mo ago
They just buy slogans from those who espouse efficiency. In a traditional AC unit, heat is produced by either electric strips or by a gas burner, no refrigeration circuit is involved in the heating cycle. So, just a blower motor runs, compressor (and condenser fan) never runs in the heating cycle. In heat pumps, refrigeration circuit does both heating and cooling. So, compressor works in both cycles.
- seanmcdirmid 2mo ago
  How is that not just better since the power requirements are less? The whole point against conventional ACs and for what we call heat pumps is purely that they use less electricities (well, they can also heat and cool, so you don’t need two systems). People like heat pumps simply because they are more energy efficient. It isn’t guerrilla marketing making people like a new thing that is the same as the old thing.
  - raincom 2mo ago
    Heat pump = conventional AC - (heat strip/gas burner) + reversing the refrigeration circuit for the heat cycle + efficient ECM motor (for air blower) + VFD compressor (single phase to DC to three phase AC with variable frequency) + modern controls to manage both inside and outside motors. One can install an efficient AC unit with electric strips (gas burner) with "efficient ECM motor (for air blower) + VFD compressor (single phase to DC to three phase AC with variable frequency) + modern controls to manage both inside and outside motors." That's where modern AC units are driving at. Heat pump uses electricity for compressor fan and fan in that outdoor unit. In an efficient conventional AC unit, one trades the extra electricity used in the outside unit for the electricity used for heat strips. Geothermal heat pump is efficient and is a different ball game.

maybewhenthesun 2mo ago

Nothing ironic about that. Using an airco to cool a house is often (not always) a luxury that humans did without for centuries. So people are used to seeing cooling as luxury. Without heating you die. A heatpump is more energy efficient than most other forms of heating. A heatpump is not always the most efficient way to cool a house.

ProfessorLayton 2mo ago
Notice how you switch from "more energy efficient than most..." when talking about heating, but then switch to "is not always the most efficient..." when talking about cooling. Both are active temperature control, and both are much more efficient than previous forms of heating and cooling. There's also the fact that cooling uses much less energy than heating because the temperature differential is usually much less extreme. It takes less energy to go from 100F/37C > 75F/23C than it does to go from 32F/0C > 65F/18C.
- maybewhenthesun 1mo ago
  There are ways to passively cool a house without airco. People have been building cool houses in hot climates for centuries. It doesn't always work, true. Once it is hot 24/7 and you don't have a source of cold anywhere you need airco. But it does explain why people consider airco a luxury item when used for cooling and not when used for heating. I'm not saying people are always right when considering cooling a luxury while considering heating a necessity, but there is a historical reason for that mindset.
m463 2mo ago
> that humans did without for centuries. I think building design/thermal mass and population density/location has changed quite a bit over the centuries.
- maybewhenthesun 1mo ago
  True. And it's going to bite us in the ass pretty soon. Already does, actually.

sig-11 2mo ago

They are. They're also heating indoors up to 4x more efficiently than the best alternative. Nobody is opposing AC cooling for efficiency. The resistence to cooling with AC comes from way before HP became popular and remains, somehow. Part of it is because it's perceived as a luxury (while heating is not), partly because being relatively uncommon until recently its surprising for some people and therefore the perceived cause of illnesses and malaise. It'll go away. Because it's really vitally important, and because air/air HPs are perfect trojan horses to normalize AC cooling. .. That being said, I had to call 3 companies in Germany before I even found one willing to sell me a air/air HP. And the cooling function has to be carefully ignored if you want it subsidized.

Yizahi 2mo ago
> It'll go away. Because it's really vitally important, and because air/air HPs are perfect trojan horses to normalize AC cooling. I sincerely hope so. But the trouble is that politicians and activists are very fond of picking smaller targets for their negativity. Because it is easier to wage war on a regular mid to poor salary-man neighbor instead of some faceless corporation with the billions of cash, a staff of lawyers and incorporated half the world away in a jurisdiction with thoroughly corrupted judges. This is why we are seeing this avalanche of anti-social initiatives under the slogans of "progress". Like the insane fines for not following insane garbage sorting rules in some select countries, or the taxation levied on the individuals and small businesses instead of megacorps, or the whole legalized surveillance while rich people and corpos are excluded, or this AC insanity now (had any activist in EU protested under any business center that it should be without AC? Nope. But firing at individuals is easier and grants more satisfying results.

UncleMeat 2mo ago

The "get a heat pump" narrative is just saying that heat pumps are better than gas heating or electric resistive heating. It is not hypocritical to say "people who already have a furnace and an AC should get a heat pump" while also saying "people who don't have an AC should consider continuing to not have AC."

robocat 2mo ago

The biggest issue with greenies is that their goals tend to be overly idealistic. They don't compromise - even when a compromise would strictly improve the world. Well, most voters hate to make compromises but the greenies seem to do it harder. In NZ we have a very left wing Green Party who in theory could have power in a minority coalition with our "conservative" party. However politically it would never work. I think both parties veto working together, but New Zealand loses out on green progress because of that. Instead the Greens only make a coalition with the left, which is already quite green focused so the Greens remain rather impotent. Conservative greeny voters in New Zealand need better representation. Fortunately our heat pumps usually also have AC. I can only guess we don't have any insane rules about that because having a heatpump with AC has been normal for decades (AC isn't just for the hated tall-poppy wealthy: and very few have a dedicated aircon unit).

Yizahi 2mo ago
> They don't compromise - even when a compromise would strictly improve the world. This 100%. This what I recently articulated for myself about my dissatisfaction with certain groups of people who claim to be very progressive and so on. Some of those people are so radical that they are unwilling to compromise even on a tiny things. If they get to get 100% of something and other people get to get 50% of they want, or if they would compromise and both sets would get 90% or 95% or even sometimes 99% (both), they are absolutely unwilling to cease demanding strict 100%. Basically they claim to be pro-social, but if we think about the issue in general, they are the ones failing the prisoner's dilemma, just on the opposite side. Not willing to compromise on anything even if they do then humanity on average would win more.