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The concept of "class struggle" epitomizes the "group vs. group war" mentality. It's a mental framework that combines ingroup/outgroup dynamics with a Manichea

by Gormo 1mo ago

The concept of "class struggle" epitomizes the "group vs. group war" mentality. It's a mental framework that combines ingroup/outgroup dynamics with a Manichean moral narrative, leading to literally every question being interpreted as a move in relation to an all-encompassing macro-level conflict. This in turn leads to every problem being abstracted out of its context, and attributed to malice instead of error. Thinking this way completely hampers the ability of human beings to make incremental progress on anything at all via net-positive social engagement with each other. The "class struggle" idea is of the most debilitating memetic diseases that's ever come about in human history.

beepbooptheory 1mo ago
Huh. Do you think the same thing about the concept of social/economic class as well? Or is it just rejecting that there is typically a struggle between them?
- doublepg23 1mo ago
  I don't believe class struggle is the driving force of history.
- Gormo 1mo ago
  Basically, yeah. Classification in general is a subjective, value-laden activity. At the most granular resolution, everything is fundamentally sui generis -- putting things into classes requires making subjective judgments about what qualities and characteristics you're going to ignore in order to focus on the ones you care about. Put simply, when you come up with a class/category taxonomy, you're drawing your own boundaries inside a continuum of variation, and where you draw them is something you're choosing based on the purposes you are pursuing and the assumptions you have made, not mapping out something that's intrinsic to the external world independently of you. "Category X includes object Y" is a property inherent to the definition of category X; it is not a quality inherent to object Y. And when the things you're classifying are other people, and you're trying to develop a taxonomy that models their behavior, you have a situation where the entities you're analyzing are self-aware beings whose behavior is driven by the analytical models and taxonomies in their minds, not the ones in yours. People who propose class theories as a usable model for understanding human intentions and behavior lump other people together according to their own criteria, even though those people can -- and often do -- make their own decisions according to completely different criteria. People do not see strangers as having common interests or values simply because a third set of strangers have reduced them to data points that fall into the same bar on a narrowly tailored histogram. When put to the test, these class theories consistently fail to predict actual human behavior, and people with normative attachements to the theories then to hand-wave away these discrepancies: "false consciousness", "voting against their interests", etc.; these notions are layers of epicycles meant to sustain a speculative theory in the face of falsifying evidence. Much better to do away with a priori class theories, and just analyze what actual people are actually saying and doing.
  - beepbooptheory 1mo ago
    If the categories here are truly a priori, then it seems strange to mistrust them? Maybe you mean a posteriori? I think I get the angle here, but the whole thing about a single category/classification/abstraction against a continuum is that it doesn't need to speak to or predict the entire continuum, or to every quality and aspiration of one of its members. One set of things, "those items which have X", need not exclude their members from being in another set which might deal with Y and Z! The concept of a single class, whether we are talking Bertrand Russell or Marx, != complete "taxonomic" classification. As such, a social class is, yes, a lossy abstraction taken from the point of view of any given individual, but it's not like it's failing at being a good category because this is so. That's just, like, how concepts in general work? I wonder what politics looks like following through with your argument? How do we conceive of things like the "public best interest" if any given classification is doomed to not capture people actually? What is the "public" here? Are there children? Seniors? Veterans?
    - Gormo 1mo ago
      > As such, a social class is, yes, a lossy abstraction taken from the point of view of any given individual, but it's not like it's failing at being a good category because this is so. That's just, like, how concepts in general work? Sure. What I'm pointing out is that using the concept of social class as the lens through which you analyze all human social interaction, and draw conclusions about the entire fundamental organization of society, is a case of erroneously universalizing a lossy abstraction. And when people obsess over social class to the point of characterizing every question, debate, or controversy in society as a manifestation of "class struggle", and criticize people for framing their relations with others in society through some lens other than social class, isn't that clearly what's happening? Isn't that what happened right here in this thread, and led to us having this very debate in the first place? > I wonder what politics looks like following through with your argument? How do we conceive of things like the "public best interest" if any given classification is doomed to not capture people actually? What is the "public" here? Are there children? Seniors? Veterans? Well, that's exactly the point. Maybe the answer is that the question doesn't pertain to "the public" as some unified aggregate, but is actually something that different subsets of the public need different approaches to. Maybe the best interest of "the public" aggregated into a singular entity is to to figure out how best to disaggregate the question.
unethical_ban 1mo ago
Having read history and knowing a bit about labor conditions before workers fought for rights, I find it odd to find someone who rejects the idea that class struggles exist, or that those with riches don't try to protect their exclusive access to those riches more often than not.
- Gormo 1mo ago
  Specific workers may have had to fight for rights against specific employers, and this certainly happened quite a bit in the past. Conflicts of interest and adversarial games (in the game theory sense) can and do take place in many varied social contexts. To abstract all of this into some generalized notion of "class struggle" that presumes that that "workers" as a category are at all times locked into a zero-sum struggle against all "bosses" is not just empirically false, but is actually a notion that has at times been calcified into a dogma used to justify incredibly destructive and oppressive behavior. The prioritization of categories over human beings in the attribution of moral agency is a profound error.
- LtWorf 1mo ago
  Ah you read history… that was your mistake. You must remain completely ignorant to believe in the idea that there is no class struggle.

by Gormo 1mo ago

beepbooptheory 1mo ago

Huh. Do you think the same thing about the concept of social/economic class as well? Or is it just rejecting that there is typically a struggle between them?

doublepg23 1mo ago
I don't believe class struggle is the driving force of history.
Gormo 1mo ago
Basically, yeah. Classification in general is a subjective, value-laden activity. At the most granular resolution, everything is fundamentally sui generis -- putting things into classes requires making subjective judgments about what qualities and characteristics you're going to ignore in order to focus on the ones you care about. Put simply, when you come up with a class/category taxonomy, you're drawing your own boundaries inside a continuum of variation, and where you draw them is something you're choosing based on the purposes you are pursuing and the assumptions you have made, not mapping out something that's intrinsic to the external world independently of you. "Category X includes object Y" is a property inherent to the definition of category X; it is not a quality inherent to object Y. And when the things you're classifying are other people, and you're trying to develop a taxonomy that models their behavior, you have a situation where the entities you're analyzing are self-aware beings whose behavior is driven by the analytical models and taxonomies in their minds, not the ones in yours. People who propose class theories as a usable model for understanding human intentions and behavior lump other people together according to their own criteria, even though those people can -- and often do -- make their own decisions according to completely different criteria. People do not see strangers as having common interests or values simply because a third set of strangers have reduced them to data points that fall into the same bar on a narrowly tailored histogram. When put to the test, these class theories consistently fail to predict actual human behavior, and people with normative attachements to the theories then to hand-wave away these discrepancies: "false consciousness", "voting against their interests", etc.; these notions are layers of epicycles meant to sustain a speculative theory in the face of falsifying evidence. Much better to do away with a priori class theories, and just analyze what actual people are actually saying and doing.
- beepbooptheory 1mo ago
  If the categories here are truly a priori, then it seems strange to mistrust them? Maybe you mean a posteriori? I think I get the angle here, but the whole thing about a single category/classification/abstraction against a continuum is that it doesn't need to speak to or predict the entire continuum, or to every quality and aspiration of one of its members. One set of things, "those items which have X", need not exclude their members from being in another set which might deal with Y and Z! The concept of a single class, whether we are talking Bertrand Russell or Marx, != complete "taxonomic" classification. As such, a social class is, yes, a lossy abstraction taken from the point of view of any given individual, but it's not like it's failing at being a good category because this is so. That's just, like, how concepts in general work? I wonder what politics looks like following through with your argument? How do we conceive of things like the "public best interest" if any given classification is doomed to not capture people actually? What is the "public" here? Are there children? Seniors? Veterans?
  - Gormo 1mo ago
    > As such, a social class is, yes, a lossy abstraction taken from the point of view of any given individual, but it's not like it's failing at being a good category because this is so. That's just, like, how concepts in general work? Sure. What I'm pointing out is that using the concept of social class as the lens through which you analyze all human social interaction, and draw conclusions about the entire fundamental organization of society, is a case of erroneously universalizing a lossy abstraction. And when people obsess over social class to the point of characterizing every question, debate, or controversy in society as a manifestation of "class struggle", and criticize people for framing their relations with others in society through some lens other than social class, isn't that clearly what's happening? Isn't that what happened right here in this thread, and led to us having this very debate in the first place? > I wonder what politics looks like following through with your argument? How do we conceive of things like the "public best interest" if any given classification is doomed to not capture people actually? What is the "public" here? Are there children? Seniors? Veterans? Well, that's exactly the point. Maybe the answer is that the question doesn't pertain to "the public" as some unified aggregate, but is actually something that different subsets of the public need different approaches to. Maybe the best interest of "the public" aggregated into a singular entity is to to figure out how best to disaggregate the question.

unethical_ban 1mo ago

Having read history and knowing a bit about labor conditions before workers fought for rights, I find it odd to find someone who rejects the idea that class struggles exist, or that those with riches don't try to protect their exclusive access to those riches more often than not.

Gormo 1mo ago
Specific workers may have had to fight for rights against specific employers, and this certainly happened quite a bit in the past. Conflicts of interest and adversarial games (in the game theory sense) can and do take place in many varied social contexts. To abstract all of this into some generalized notion of "class struggle" that presumes that that "workers" as a category are at all times locked into a zero-sum struggle against all "bosses" is not just empirically false, but is actually a notion that has at times been calcified into a dogma used to justify incredibly destructive and oppressive behavior. The prioritization of categories over human beings in the attribution of moral agency is a profound error.
LtWorf 1mo ago
Ah you read history… that was your mistake. You must remain completely ignorant to believe in the idea that there is no class struggle.