5 ms·

I can understand that this is not the exact location where the floods actually happened. But I am sad and I am frustrated and I am angry. We had floods in Sikk

I can understand that this is not the exact location where the floods actually happened. But I am sad and I am frustrated and I am angry. We had floods in Sikkim, which is practically a "stone throw" away from a world-level map point of view. I was there then. There was past research but everyone was so surprised. Activists talking about that event 10 years prior. Published reports. Yet, we do nothing to move people away. To pause and think what the hell is going wrong. Just keep hustling and pretend shit is not going to go wrong. I am tired of our* culture. our: all of us, I am not only talking about India, Nepal or China here.

shrubby 1mo ago
Yes. Aleksey Yurchak coined a term Hupernormalisation and it works here too. We know the reality, yet leaders keep telling us via TV, social media... that everything is fine. We know that they know that we know. Fake world? Matrix? Escape from the freedom?
- O-K 1mo ago
  There’s a great doc by Adam Curtis about HyperNormalisation https://youtu.be/Gr7T07WfIhM https://youtu.be/Gr7T07WfIhM From wiki: It argues that following the global economic crises of the 1970s, governments, financiers and technological utopians gave up on trying to shape the complex "real world" and instead established a simpler "fake world" for the benefit of multi-national corporations that is kept stable by neoliberal governments
  - jack_riminton 1mo ago
    Reminds me of Plato's Allegory of the Cave So I don't think it'a new thing, but maybe it's getting worse https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allegory_of_the_cave https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allegory_of_the_cave
  - shrubby 1mo ago
    Yes, it's awesome and exactly what I had in mind. The century of the self must be recommended also.
  - gizajob 1mo ago
    Baudrillard restated, as a cause rather than an effect.
    - _bernd 1mo ago
      I can highly recommend "the agony of the real" if you haven't read it yet :)
- srean 1mo ago
  > yet leaders keep telling us via TV, social media... that everything is fine. How else will they make easy money from illegal and unsafe constructions. There is always the "it was the will of god" excuse. This will continue till we wisen up and elect the right people, select the right people.
  - lynx97 1mo ago
    Are there "right people"? Or does power corrupt, and your cozy wish is just not realistic? Looking at local politics, I see misuse of power and on all sides. Left, right, middle. Nobody can be trusted.
    - srean 1mo ago
      That's a damn good question. My hunch is there are honest and reasonably competent people but who don't desire such positions. Perhaps it is time to try sortition at scale.
      - shrubby 1mo ago
        Valid point! I was just a while ago writing elsewhere (sorry, not totally on topic): "But now almost everyone has figured out what the signs of the corruption are so we can spot the ones getting ill from the power and remove them. I was joking that we (Finland) could sacrifice a island f Åland to be a Matrix for the power corrupted elite. We can simulate plenty of virtual sycophants fro them to be perfectly happy narcissists while isolated from doing us harm. And I'm happy to volunteer to train as a therapist, should someone want to get better! The golden rule and its formulations is pretty damn good litmus test for checking the level of corruption. If you're deep enough this will create a rage reaction. Think of Trump when someone talks about empathy or standard deviation. He will get hostile as he doesn't understand what the aliens around him are talking about. I referred to the moral development with the lollipop and the levels are: Pre-conventional (narcissist level in childhood or later in life regression by trauma, addiction or ...) Conventional (the sheep level that understands moral based on what others do around - google banality of evil if you don't know this) Post-conventional is the level where we do the golden rule thinking. Most of us are in the conventional in action, BUT can understand the golden rule and that's enough. Have the decision makers reflect on some, even mundane, issues on the basis of "what if all 8 billion of us did this" and you'll get a short sircuit or division by zero, if the capability has regressed or never developed. These are no evil people by no means, but in most cases ones that have not had a healthy people around them. Either as a child or later on. We just know where we're going to end up should we not remove them from the power. Whether the society is powered by communism, or capitalism, or whateverism the outcome is the same if we don't figure out a way for this. We cannot allow replacement via "good great leaders" as the power itself also creates the regression, just like addiction or trauma. So if I'm seemingly moral now and you'll select me as the great spagetti leader that dictates over the world and other puny religions, eventually I will corrupt by the admiration. And so will you. The predicament of the human race is IMO decided by the fact that do we dare to start talking about this human trait honestly :D Sorry a long rant, now I'll shut up!" So thanks for a question I had an answer almost available!
- Gravityloss 1mo ago
  In a large part of the world, the people voted for those people. https://deming.org/wp-content/uploads/2020/06/inconvienent-truth.jpg https://deming.org/wp-content/uploads/2020/06/inconvienent-t... On the other hand, there's also a market for generating outrage and panic, sometimes justified, sometimes not.
  - shrubby 1mo ago
    Voting is in many parts manipulated or gerrymandered... feature and for it to work we'd need a lot of work. So not the best metric for what majority of people want. Also the wants are manufactured in many parts.
fedeb95 1mo ago
This happens nearly every year in Italy. Someone said that it's because we humans are very good at reacting at immediate danger and very bad at reacting at risks building up slowly. I don't know if it is true, but by today still voting for parties denying climate change all the way and that have done nothing in past years to prevent this type of risks is crazy.
- phtrivier 1mo ago
  It must be hard to discuss that in Italy, where millions of tourist (like me) queue to visit Pompei (or, better in my opinion, Herculanum), and then go back to their AirBnB in... Napoli, aka the backyard of an active volcano. As a friend says, "Our collective cognitive dissonance is something I would not want to climb with a bike."
  - brabel 1mo ago
    It’s very different to visit a risk area as a tourist. Your chances of being buried are slim for a particle week. But for the people living there every day, the statistics compound. For a long enough period it’s almost guaranteed you will suffer. In the case of the downhill villages in Nepal, everyone knew those lakes would eventually burst , and in a matter of a few years. To continue building and living in those areas was completely reckless and I want to believe that anywhere in Europe they would have evacuated such villages decades before disaster.
    - eliaspro 1mo ago
      In Germany we just rebuild everything in an area (Ahrtal) devastated by one of the worst floods in local history...
- chinathrow 1mo ago
  By the amount of (some of it useless) tech we've come to build in the last 3 decades, we should have arrived at the stage where we can collectively control the CO2 levels in our atmosphere, by now. For ever. We failed.
lazide 1mo ago
There is also an effect being caused by social media and video sharing - loss of context. The entire Himalayan foothills area (which includes what, at least 6 different major countries off the top of my head) are potentially impacted by something like this. Most of these areas are barely surviving, and extremely poor, and often very disconnected from the rest of the country due to the terrain. Realistically, what do you think they could have done to prevent this, given the likely 1/1000 or lower chance it would happen to them specifically?
- srean 1mo ago
  > Realistically, what do you think they could have done to prevent this, given the likely 1/1000 or lower chance it would happen to them specifically? Use science based zoning and not build or populate known hazardous areas.
  - lazide 1mo ago
    What does that concretely actually mean? There are only a handful of areas on the planet without known disaster exposure risk. Maybe zero, really.
    - srean 1mo ago
      That's quite hyperbolic. Zoning is not an all or nothing. There is a lot of land that does not have such extreme dangers. Of course, some countries have it worse than others. Japan would be one such. Good or bad, the population has been on the decline there for unrelated reasons. For earthquakes this is what my country looks like https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Earthquake_zones_of_India https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Earthquake_zones_of_India This is at a very broad resolution. One can refine to make this more local. Earthquakes are just one type of hazard. One has to take other hazards into account.
      - newsclues 1mo ago
        Your trying to control geography with policy. But not considering why people build communities in valleys. More geography and less policy knowledge is required
srean 1mo ago
We do the opposite. The political class and the contractor class regularly flout safety norms and build where they shouldn't. They make the money from the safety of being out of range. When the political class are questioned they utter inanities like people should be grateful that God Ganga maia waters have come to bless their lands and homes. It is a racket. This will continue till we start electing people who respect the scientific methods and their conclusions.
- repelsteeltje 1mo ago
  Okay, but isn't it likely that the outcome of those scientific investigations will be that the Himalayan foothills should not be inhabited at all, except maybe a couple of places? What I mean is: Sure, politicians and contractors could do better, but I believe the primary reason for villages and bridges in those valleys is that people want them there. Standard of living is exceptionally low and this is just one of many hazards.
  - srean 1mo ago
    > Okay, but isn't it likely that the outcome of those scientific investigations will be that the Himalayan foothills should not be inhabited at all, except maybe a couple of places Yes and that is broadly the safe option. One can build on geological stable high grounds. They are rather and more difficult to build on. We know what happens when we don't. > Sure, politicians and contractors could do better It's not mistake of the "oops a typo" variety. They are knowingly making a freakton of money by endangering the people who ought to know better. I agree sometimes the poor might not have viable alternatives that they can fund with their own bank balance but it seems this is where the governments should step in to fund alternatives. But why do that when there is easy money to be made.
    - repelsteeltje 1mo ago
      While I usually prefer to attribute incompetence rather than malice, it's hard to deny corruption is a likely factor here too. But the "freakton of money" aspect IMO needs nuance. I wager that the wealth of those cronies doesn't come close to my western living standards, so who am I to judge?
gonzalohm 1mo ago
Same approach that we are taking against climate change
deleted 1mo ago
[deleted]
titzer 1mo ago
> I am tired of our* culture. The way I justify it in my mind is that, by all accounts, there's never been a global civilization of any kind on this planet before. Especially not one with sentient primates connected by instant telecommunications and powered by capitalism. There is no existence proof that this can work. So when it seems like it is failing, I take solace in that maybe it's not even possible. I'm really not sure if any combination of political and economic systems could have avoided the mess we find ourselves in. Capitalism and free enterprise powered by fossil fuels does seem like it strapped a booster rocket to our inherent greed and inability to live in balance with our surrounding ecosystems, and now we've got an unhealthy combination of massive momentum and no political will to redirect human development towards sustainability. It's going to be chaos because global civilization seems to be uncontrollable and voracious. So, buckle up?
pmkary 1mo ago
I'm from Iran and sadly it is the same here as well. Our country is in a bad shape given the political/economic situation and there are so many warnings that are common knowledge, but given the economy of fixing them, nothing really happens to prevent them. We had a mall that was decades too old and very unstable. The fire department had issued many safety warnings and had tried to close the place for safety; it did not happen and the building went on fire and crashed to the ground, killing many civilians and firefighters. Its a shame things like this happen; made me incredibly sad to see this report. Hope nothing like this ever happens to anyone.
srean 1mo ago
For an idea about the rampant corruption in the Himalayan states of India that promotes illegal and dangerous real estate projects. There is a cartel of politicians and builders who are making a fast buck selling to those who are not fully aware of the magnitude of the dangers. https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/city/chandigarh/kiratpur-nerchowk-project-hc-ordered-audit-uncovers-over-rs-22cr-scam/articleshow/131727095.cms https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/city/chandigarh/kiratpur... https://citizenmatters.in/shimla-illegal-construction-urbanisation-impact-on-environment/ https://citizenmatters.in/shimla-illegal-construction-urbani... https://youtu.be/IcfbZgaUneQ https://youtu.be/IcfbZgaUneQ https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/city/shimla/muck-in-rivers-led-to-hp-disaster/articleshow/101775252.cms https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/city/shimla/muck-in-rive... https://www.thehindu.com/news/national/himachal-pradesh/supreme-court-asks-himachal-government-to-respond-to-queries-on-landslips-flash-floods/article70085930.ece https://www.thehindu.com/news/national/himachal-pradesh/supr...
- dredmorbius 1mo ago
  Even in the US you'll find states which ban the phrase "climate change" from state law, or scientific study of sea level rise. In regions profoundly at risk from both. "Florida Gov. DeSantis signs bill that deletes climate change from state law" <https://www.npr.org/2024/05/17/1252012825/florida-gov-desantis-signs-bill-that-deletes-climate-change-from-state-law https://www.npr.org/2024/05/17/1252012825/florida-gov-desant...> (2024) "North Carolina Literally Passed Laws Against Science on Sea-Level Rises" <https://www.sciencealert.com/you-can-t-outlaw-hurricanes-how-north-carolina-turned-its-back-climate-change-bill-hb-819-nc-20-florence https://www.sciencealert.com/you-can-t-outlaw-hurricanes-how...> (2018)
  - srean 1mo ago
    They (meaning not just US) are literally proving Upton Sinclair's law.

shrubby 1mo ago

Yes. Aleksey Yurchak coined a term Hupernormalisation and it works here too. We know the reality, yet leaders keep telling us via TV, social media... that everything is fine. We know that they know that we know. Fake world? Matrix? Escape from the freedom?

O-K 1mo ago
There’s a great doc by Adam Curtis about HyperNormalisation https://youtu.be/Gr7T07WfIhM https://youtu.be/Gr7T07WfIhM From wiki: It argues that following the global economic crises of the 1970s, governments, financiers and technological utopians gave up on trying to shape the complex "real world" and instead established a simpler "fake world" for the benefit of multi-national corporations that is kept stable by neoliberal governments
- jack_riminton 1mo ago
  Reminds me of Plato's Allegory of the Cave So I don't think it'a new thing, but maybe it's getting worse https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allegory_of_the_cave https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allegory_of_the_cave
- shrubby 1mo ago
  Yes, it's awesome and exactly what I had in mind. The century of the self must be recommended also.
- gizajob 1mo ago
  Baudrillard restated, as a cause rather than an effect.
  - _bernd 1mo ago
    I can highly recommend "the agony of the real" if you haven't read it yet :)
srean 1mo ago
> yet leaders keep telling us via TV, social media... that everything is fine. How else will they make easy money from illegal and unsafe constructions. There is always the "it was the will of god" excuse. This will continue till we wisen up and elect the right people, select the right people.
- lynx97 1mo ago
  Are there "right people"? Or does power corrupt, and your cozy wish is just not realistic? Looking at local politics, I see misuse of power and on all sides. Left, right, middle. Nobody can be trusted.
  - srean 1mo ago
    That's a damn good question. My hunch is there are honest and reasonably competent people but who don't desire such positions. Perhaps it is time to try sortition at scale.
    - shrubby 1mo ago
      Valid point! I was just a while ago writing elsewhere (sorry, not totally on topic): "But now almost everyone has figured out what the signs of the corruption are so we can spot the ones getting ill from the power and remove them. I was joking that we (Finland) could sacrifice a island f Åland to be a Matrix for the power corrupted elite. We can simulate plenty of virtual sycophants fro them to be perfectly happy narcissists while isolated from doing us harm. And I'm happy to volunteer to train as a therapist, should someone want to get better! The golden rule and its formulations is pretty damn good litmus test for checking the level of corruption. If you're deep enough this will create a rage reaction. Think of Trump when someone talks about empathy or standard deviation. He will get hostile as he doesn't understand what the aliens around him are talking about. I referred to the moral development with the lollipop and the levels are: Pre-conventional (narcissist level in childhood or later in life regression by trauma, addiction or ...) Conventional (the sheep level that understands moral based on what others do around - google banality of evil if you don't know this) Post-conventional is the level where we do the golden rule thinking. Most of us are in the conventional in action, BUT can understand the golden rule and that's enough. Have the decision makers reflect on some, even mundane, issues on the basis of "what if all 8 billion of us did this" and you'll get a short sircuit or division by zero, if the capability has regressed or never developed. These are no evil people by no means, but in most cases ones that have not had a healthy people around them. Either as a child or later on. We just know where we're going to end up should we not remove them from the power. Whether the society is powered by communism, or capitalism, or whateverism the outcome is the same if we don't figure out a way for this. We cannot allow replacement via "good great leaders" as the power itself also creates the regression, just like addiction or trauma. So if I'm seemingly moral now and you'll select me as the great spagetti leader that dictates over the world and other puny religions, eventually I will corrupt by the admiration. And so will you. The predicament of the human race is IMO decided by the fact that do we dare to start talking about this human trait honestly :D Sorry a long rant, now I'll shut up!" So thanks for a question I had an answer almost available!
Gravityloss 1mo ago
In a large part of the world, the people voted for those people. https://deming.org/wp-content/uploads/2020/06/inconvienent-truth.jpg https://deming.org/wp-content/uploads/2020/06/inconvienent-t... On the other hand, there's also a market for generating outrage and panic, sometimes justified, sometimes not.
- shrubby 1mo ago
  Voting is in many parts manipulated or gerrymandered... feature and for it to work we'd need a lot of work. So not the best metric for what majority of people want. Also the wants are manufactured in many parts.

fedeb95 1mo ago

This happens nearly every year in Italy. Someone said that it's because we humans are very good at reacting at immediate danger and very bad at reacting at risks building up slowly. I don't know if it is true, but by today still voting for parties denying climate change all the way and that have done nothing in past years to prevent this type of risks is crazy.

phtrivier 1mo ago
It must be hard to discuss that in Italy, where millions of tourist (like me) queue to visit Pompei (or, better in my opinion, Herculanum), and then go back to their AirBnB in... Napoli, aka the backyard of an active volcano. As a friend says, "Our collective cognitive dissonance is something I would not want to climb with a bike."
- brabel 1mo ago
  It’s very different to visit a risk area as a tourist. Your chances of being buried are slim for a particle week. But for the people living there every day, the statistics compound. For a long enough period it’s almost guaranteed you will suffer. In the case of the downhill villages in Nepal, everyone knew those lakes would eventually burst , and in a matter of a few years. To continue building and living in those areas was completely reckless and I want to believe that anywhere in Europe they would have evacuated such villages decades before disaster.
  - eliaspro 1mo ago
    In Germany we just rebuild everything in an area (Ahrtal) devastated by one of the worst floods in local history...
chinathrow 1mo ago
By the amount of (some of it useless) tech we've come to build in the last 3 decades, we should have arrived at the stage where we can collectively control the CO2 levels in our atmosphere, by now. For ever. We failed.

lazide 1mo ago

There is also an effect being caused by social media and video sharing - loss of context. The entire Himalayan foothills area (which includes what, at least 6 different major countries off the top of my head) are potentially impacted by something like this. Most of these areas are barely surviving, and extremely poor, and often very disconnected from the rest of the country due to the terrain. Realistically, what do you think they could have done to prevent this, given the likely 1/1000 or lower chance it would happen to them specifically?

srean 1mo ago
> Realistically, what do you think they could have done to prevent this, given the likely 1/1000 or lower chance it would happen to them specifically? Use science based zoning and not build or populate known hazardous areas.
- lazide 1mo ago
  What does that concretely actually mean? There are only a handful of areas on the planet without known disaster exposure risk. Maybe zero, really.
  - srean 1mo ago
    That's quite hyperbolic. Zoning is not an all or nothing. There is a lot of land that does not have such extreme dangers. Of course, some countries have it worse than others. Japan would be one such. Good or bad, the population has been on the decline there for unrelated reasons. For earthquakes this is what my country looks like https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Earthquake_zones_of_India https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Earthquake_zones_of_India This is at a very broad resolution. One can refine to make this more local. Earthquakes are just one type of hazard. One has to take other hazards into account.
    - newsclues 1mo ago
      Your trying to control geography with policy. But not considering why people build communities in valleys. More geography and less policy knowledge is required

srean 1mo ago

We do the opposite. The political class and the contractor class regularly flout safety norms and build where they shouldn't. They make the money from the safety of being out of range. When the political class are questioned they utter inanities like people should be grateful that God Ganga maia waters have come to bless their lands and homes. It is a racket. This will continue till we start electing people who respect the scientific methods and their conclusions.

repelsteeltje 1mo ago
Okay, but isn't it likely that the outcome of those scientific investigations will be that the Himalayan foothills should not be inhabited at all, except maybe a couple of places? What I mean is: Sure, politicians and contractors could do better, but I believe the primary reason for villages and bridges in those valleys is that people want them there. Standard of living is exceptionally low and this is just one of many hazards.
- srean 1mo ago
  > Okay, but isn't it likely that the outcome of those scientific investigations will be that the Himalayan foothills should not be inhabited at all, except maybe a couple of places Yes and that is broadly the safe option. One can build on geological stable high grounds. They are rather and more difficult to build on. We know what happens when we don't. > Sure, politicians and contractors could do better It's not mistake of the "oops a typo" variety. They are knowingly making a freakton of money by endangering the people who ought to know better. I agree sometimes the poor might not have viable alternatives that they can fund with their own bank balance but it seems this is where the governments should step in to fund alternatives. But why do that when there is easy money to be made.
  - repelsteeltje 1mo ago
    While I usually prefer to attribute incompetence rather than malice, it's hard to deny corruption is a likely factor here too. But the "freakton of money" aspect IMO needs nuance. I wager that the wealth of those cronies doesn't come close to my western living standards, so who am I to judge?

gonzalohm 1mo ago

Same approach that we are taking against climate change

deleted 1mo ago

[deleted]

titzer 1mo ago

> I am tired of our* culture. The way I justify it in my mind is that, by all accounts, there's never been a global civilization of any kind on this planet before. Especially not one with sentient primates connected by instant telecommunications and powered by capitalism. There is no existence proof that this can work. So when it seems like it is failing, I take solace in that maybe it's not even possible. I'm really not sure if any combination of political and economic systems could have avoided the mess we find ourselves in. Capitalism and free enterprise powered by fossil fuels does seem like it strapped a booster rocket to our inherent greed and inability to live in balance with our surrounding ecosystems, and now we've got an unhealthy combination of massive momentum and no political will to redirect human development towards sustainability. It's going to be chaos because global civilization seems to be uncontrollable and voracious. So, buckle up?

pmkary 1mo ago

I'm from Iran and sadly it is the same here as well. Our country is in a bad shape given the political/economic situation and there are so many warnings that are common knowledge, but given the economy of fixing them, nothing really happens to prevent them. We had a mall that was decades too old and very unstable. The fire department had issued many safety warnings and had tried to close the place for safety; it did not happen and the building went on fire and crashed to the ground, killing many civilians and firefighters. Its a shame things like this happen; made me incredibly sad to see this report. Hope nothing like this ever happens to anyone.

srean 1mo ago

For an idea about the rampant corruption in the Himalayan states of India that promotes illegal and dangerous real estate projects. There is a cartel of politicians and builders who are making a fast buck selling to those who are not fully aware of the magnitude of the dangers. https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/city/chandigarh/kiratpur-nerchowk-project-hc-ordered-audit-uncovers-over-rs-22cr-scam/articleshow/131727095.cms https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/city/chandigarh/kiratpur... https://citizenmatters.in/shimla-illegal-construction-urbanisation-impact-on-environment/ https://citizenmatters.in/shimla-illegal-construction-urbani... https://youtu.be/IcfbZgaUneQ https://youtu.be/IcfbZgaUneQ https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/city/shimla/muck-in-rivers-led-to-hp-disaster/articleshow/101775252.cms https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/city/shimla/muck-in-rive... https://www.thehindu.com/news/national/himachal-pradesh/supreme-court-asks-himachal-government-to-respond-to-queries-on-landslips-flash-floods/article70085930.ece https://www.thehindu.com/news/national/himachal-pradesh/supr...

dredmorbius 1mo ago
Even in the US you'll find states which ban the phrase "climate change" from state law, or scientific study of sea level rise. In regions profoundly at risk from both. "Florida Gov. DeSantis signs bill that deletes climate change from state law" <https://www.npr.org/2024/05/17/1252012825/florida-gov-desantis-signs-bill-that-deletes-climate-change-from-state-law https://www.npr.org/2024/05/17/1252012825/florida-gov-desant...> (2024) "North Carolina Literally Passed Laws Against Science on Sea-Level Rises" <https://www.sciencealert.com/you-can-t-outlaw-hurricanes-how-north-carolina-turned-its-back-climate-change-bill-hb-819-nc-20-florence https://www.sciencealert.com/you-can-t-outlaw-hurricanes-how...> (2018)
- srean 1mo ago
  They (meaning not just US) are literally proving Upton Sinclair's law.