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The biggest barrier to ending tipping in the USA is that restaurants are almost always over staffed there. The owner wants the maximum ratio of servers to cust

• rock_artist 1mo ago
  It depends and also is culture based. In Spain you can find some places (eg coffee place) with 1-2 workers. Sometimes it takes a lot of time to get your order at rush hours, but the culture tolerates patience and waiting.
  • ricardobayes 1mo ago
    One of the biggest cultural differences - for Spain - is that servers are seen as equals, not as a client-provider relationship. This reflects heavily in the language often used - "when you can, bring me X". Just one of the quirks of a low gini coefficient society.
    • xyzelement 1mo ago
      Just yesterday there was a story on HN about Spain's dying villages and a commenter who I assumed was Spanish attributed theow beth rate to income inequality. Which is it - low gini for talking to a waiter, high gini for starting a fam?
      • UqWBcuFx6NV4r 1mo ago
        If anyone said this about the country that you’re from (based on this attitude, we all know what my guess is) you’d immediately clock how absurd it sounds.
      • kubb 1mo ago
        You can’t hold two separate people accountable for their contradictory statements.
        • pjc50 1mo ago
          "goomba fallacy", if you need a name for this phenomenon.
        • account42 1mo ago
          You can however point out conflicting information.
          • kubb 1mo ago
            You can, just don’t demand from from one of these people to explain the difference with what the other person said.
          • jgwil2 1mo ago
            This is opinion, not information. Of course people's opinions will conflict.
      • agile-gift0262 1mo ago
        I'm saying this based on anecdotal observations from my biased POV, so take this with a grain of salt. There are income differences, but most are inter-city/region differences. I'd say within a specific city or region, it's low gini, but there's a high gini if you compare cross-region. Income and costs in a village in rural Spain are less than half that of a "mid-tier" city, and less than a third or even quarter of that of Barcelona or Madrid
      • frikskit 1mo ago
    • hammock 1mo ago
      Easily attributed less to Gini coefficient and more to the difference between a Western European approach to hospitality (structured management, technical precision and formal) and a Mediterranean one (warmth, relational connection, informal) as seen in Xenia, islamic tradition, etc
      • bluebarbet 1mo ago
        Two clichés to be contrasted with another two: the smiling first-name-terms coffee-shop barista in Hamburg, and the coldly brusque waiter in some Roman caffè storico. All these generalizations are as slippery as a bar of soap.
    • rglullis 1mo ago
      Oh, please. This reeks of a anglocentric worldview. Most places are like that. The exception to this rule is the US and franchise/chain restaurants that they have around the world.
      • ricardobayes 1mo ago
        Well, yes. That's why I labelled it as a "quirk", however as it looks people really seemed to have read a whole lot of other things into it.
  • QuantumNomad_ 1mo ago
    At least they don’t demand a bunch of extra tips. I’m European (well, Scandinavian, which some Europeans consider European and some don’t) and my rule of thumb is that if I go out I tip 10%. If the service is extra good I might tip extra. If the service is very bad (unreasonably slow, or staff forget or mix up the order in a significant way, or they are very rude), I tip 0%. Of course everyone can mess up things a little so it’s not like I immediately tip 0% just because of some minor thing. It has to be properly bad. Also something I have learned from the Spanish is to always order something small and quick for the table even before we have decided what to eat. Then if it takes 40 minutes before the food comes it doesn’t matter that much compared to when you are starving for food. So this is a very neat trick that helps a lot to have a good experience even at slow places, and something I have started always doing.
    • bilekas 1mo ago
      I have to ask, why are you tipping 10% before the service is extra good? I'm really against the idea that the company isn't responsible for paying their staff properly. Setting a baseline of 10% just says to me that the restaurant owners can just pay their staff less. And if the server is having an off day or just didn't meet your particular standards then they're losing money.
      • alexrp 1mo ago
        I think it depends on location. It would be a bizarre approach in Scandinavia because the consensus here is that companies must pay their employees a decent baseline salary -- which unions negotiate across the whole sector -- so there's no expectation of a tip by default. But for much of the rest of the world, it's not a given that working conditions are as good.
      • rapnie 1mo ago
        I think in the Netherlands the general rule is to tip up to 10% depending how good the service was, unless it was excellent and you go higher. When drinking a couple coffees in a restaurant it is okay to tip with a single Euro for good service, even if that doesn't amount to 10%.
  • chistev 1mo ago
    Christopher Ryan said this on a Joe Rogan Experience episode.
  • hammock 1mo ago
    I would rather have to tip, than lower my standard of living like that
    • gnz11 1mo ago
      Your standard of living eschews patience and waiting?
      • bryanrasmussen 1mo ago
        requiring immediate gratification at all times is a standard, I suppose.
  • paul7986 1mo ago
    And in Paris waiting to be seated a good amount of time is also part of their culture. As an American visiting it was a different experience but an interesting one.
• jamisteven 1mo ago
  LMFAO, have you ever been to a restaurant in Europe? The service is horrific. Sit down and wait 15 minutes for the menus, another 15 to place a drink order, another 10 for the drinks to get there, another 10 to place food order. Now you finish the meal, good luck getting the waiters attention to bring the check. European dining is the worst, every time I am back stateside I feel like im being waited on in the white house or something fancy.
  • mschuster91 1mo ago
    > European dining is the worst, every time I am back stateside I feel like im being waited on in the white house or something fancy. Part of European dining is the social aspect, that gets ruined when you're constantly being asked if you want another drink.
    • ghaff 1mo ago
      So you say "I'm good or maybe in a bit." Was that hard? (Versus trying to chase someone down to get your beer refilled.)
      • sofixa 1mo ago
        And if you say you're good, you'll get the check (assuming end of meal). If you don't pay it, they'll come back and ask you if you want something else. If you say no, they'll give you a few minutes and come back. They want you to get the fuck out of there as quickly as posible. In the average place in most European countries (excluding places with a queue outside or highly sought after reservation only places), nobody would bat an eye if you stay talking an hour after you're done.
        • marysol5 1mo ago
          Ironically as a Brit on the continuant, that was one that annoyed me. Trying to pay for what I used, in order to leave and do some things was a pain...
        • 1mo ago
• mschuster91 1mo ago
  [flagged]
  • tdeck 1mo ago
    Japan has a lot of the same things, but no tipping. Although the tradition of "checking in" to see if you need anything seems to not be very prevalent - instead people either press a button or call out for the staff if they need something.
    • Conan_Kudo 1mo ago
      I remember a few American restaurants experimenting with this when I was a kid. I remember the experience being a little inconsistent. I imagine the feedback wasn't particularly good.
      • tdeck 1mo ago
        In the U.S. you see the buttons quite a lot at Korean restaurants for some reason.
    • Hikikomori 1mo ago
      SUMIMASEN!!
  • tbrownaw 1mo ago
    > want to be coddled and always want to feel like they are the king of the world. Greeters at Walmart, cashiers not being allowed to sit but have to stand for "respect", I thought the greeters were an anti-shoplifting technique, "hello someone saw you here" kind of thing. And putting a seat in the checkout station means they can't be packed quite as closely and also gets in the way when someone else needs to tag in to ring up booze or whatever.
  • UqWBcuFx6NV4r 1mo ago
    I’ve spent about five weeks in the US split across two trips. At home, I eat out very very regularly, at both very nice and very shabby places, and varied places. I pretty much immediately came to your conclusion… within hours of each visit, if not less. it’s so jarring, and artificial, and tacky. I can’t imagine being so delusional as to have any of this stuff be a positive experience. I hate it. And I’m far from an introvert, but these social interactions are not genuine and they go out of their way to make you feel like you’re superior. I hate it and I think that it says a lot about the US. It’s part of what makes me just have a background feeling of being on edge the entire duration of my visit, in a way that I’ve never felt in other countries, even those that have a much larger cultural difference from my own, and that I should really feel less ‘at home’ in.
• elyobo 1mo ago
  Is that why US service ("checking on the customer every few minutes") is so incredibly annoying...
  • yostrovs 1mo ago
    No. After you've ordered, it is rare to order anything else. You might ask for a refill of a beverage or something like ketchup, but the waiter is not expecting more ordering. It's simply expected by diners that their waiter is there and will help with whatever they need. In Europe you'll wait 20 minutes to get the attention of a waiter for salt or ketchup until your food is cold. Also in Europe this will be described not as dead time waiting for a small thing, but as culture. European culture.
    • Spooky23 1mo ago
      Drinkers order more. Every cocktail is $2-3 for the waiter nowadays.
    • dofm 1mo ago
      > In Europe you'll wait 20 minutes to get the attention of a waiter for salt or ketchup until your food is cold. You could ask for the salt or ketchup when the meal arrives. Also Europeans are not, I think, accustomed to asking for salt, or ketchup, on already seasoned food. So your request is actually unusual.
      • yostrovs 1mo ago
        It's amazing how much is attributed to culture. What if I like more salt? European are not accustomed to ask for salt. What if the chef forgot to add salt? You'll wait till your food is cold. It's culture.
        • was_a_dev 1mo ago
          Do that many restaurants not have salt/pepper already on the table? Yes, I may ask for ketchup separately but salt is always provided.
• raegis 1mo ago
  > The biggest barrier to ending tipping in the USA is that restaurants are almost always over staffed there. Are you sure? I've seen way more staff shortages in real life restaurants over the past 5-6 years than any other time in my life.
  • toomuchtodo 1mo ago
    The US restaurant industry runs/ran on exploited, immigrant labor, which is now in short supply for obvious reasons. https://foodinstitute.com/focus/labor-shortages-costly-problem-for-restaurants/ https://foodinstitute.com/focus/labor-shortages-costly-probl... > Nearly 16 million people worked in restaurants last year, representing about 10% of the national workforce, and 62% of operators said recruiting and keeping employees is a real headache. “The reasons for staffing shortages are both cyclical and structural,” Milos Eric, co-founder and general manager of OysterLink, told FI, noting government statistics showed 44,000 hospitality jobs were added in March alone, but 167,000 openings remained unfilled nationwide. > “The reasons for staffing shortages are both cyclical and structural,” Milos Eric, co-founder and general manager of OysterLink, told FI, noting government statistics showed 44,000 hospitality jobs were added in March alone, but 167,000 openings remained unfilled nationwide. Eric said deportation is compounding the problem, considering government data shows 37% of cooks and 5% of dishwashers are foreign-born. https://restaurant.org/research-and-media/research/restaurant-economic-insights/analysis-commentary/potential-workers-on-the-sidelines-labor-force-participation-continues-to-slide/ https://restaurant.org/research-and-media/research/restauran... These jobs can be filled with domestic US workers, simply pay living wages.
    • NewJazz 1mo ago
      What do you mean 8 people in a 2 bedroom isn't considered a living wage?
• alpineman 1mo ago
  Plus customers don't need to pretend to be interested/impressed when they stand there and recite the 'specials' menu
• jasode 1mo ago
  >European restaurants typically use a team service model, American chain restaurants also use the team model. The server that writes down the order often isn't the same person bringing out the hot plates of food. Maybe less of team than Europe because the waitress taking the order will typically be the same one refilling the drinks. It's the white tablecloth high-end restaurants where the one waiter is the only person handling all interactions with the table.
  • getfacl 1mo ago
    What you are describing is not team service because the server "owns" the customer and are the one who will collect the tip from that table. What you are noticing is that many chains have a "full hands" rule: if any server with free hands walks past a table with dirty dishes on the way to the kitchen, they are expected to pick them up no mater who's section it is. Also, if they are heading out from the kitchen with free hands they are expected to run out some dishes no matter what table they are for.
    • jasode 1mo ago
      >the server "owns" the customer and are the one who will collect the tip from that table. In many USA restaurants, the waitstaff tips are also shared into a pool with the runners, busboys, and kitchen staff. The % may not be equal however. >What you are noticing is that many chains have a "full hands" rule: But that contradicts the idea that "USA restaurants almost always over staffed there." The chain restaurant could just "overstaff" with dedicated table runners with no need for a "full hands" rule. It doesn't seem like USA restaurants are overstaffed nor do owners have the incentive to overstaff. The very common scenario is the hostess seats you at the table and the waiter doesn't even show up for 10 or 20 minutes to take the order. The patrons are frustrated and wondering why it's taking so long. That's a symptom of understaffing where the waiter is handling too many simultaneous tables.
      • getfacl 1mo ago
        > In many USA restaurants, the waitstaff tips are also shared into a pool This doesn't change anything because the incentive is still to drive up the bill to drive up the tips. This is caused by the staff being primarily paid in tips. > The chain restaurant could just "overstaff" with dedicated table runners with no need for a "full hands" rule. Unlike servers, bussers and runners are generally paid minimum wage or close. Only over staffing servers helps make more income. Over staffing support staff runs up costs. USA restaurant staffing is widely studied and your personal anecdotes don't change the conclusion: compared to most anywhere else, restaurants in the USA are over staffed with servers.
• locknitpicker 1mo ago
  > The owner wants the maximum ratio of servers to customers possible. In the typical USA system, being paid primarily in tips means the server is highly incentivized to upsell the customer as much as possible and do everything they can to increase the total bill, and therefor increase their tip. I don't think so. The biggest upsell of a US-style tipping culture is that restaurant owners have a no-downside free pass in exploiting workers. They are literally allowed to have people working for them for barely any pay and performing a role aimed at increasing throughput and demand. Therefore there is no incentive whatsoever for a restaurant owner to stop exploiting their staff.
• raincole 1mo ago
  > The owner wants the maximum ratio of servers to customers possible. Why? It sounds very weird. In every kind of business the owner has strong incentive to cut labor.
  • unixhero 1mo ago
    Not if they are (hardly) paid anything. Then pile on staff!
    • sgerenser 1mo ago
      Turnover in the restaurant industry is brutal. An always overstaffed restaurant where the waitstaff ends up not earning much in tips will quickly lose staff to competitors (at least the good ones).
• bjourne 1mo ago
  Also, many Europeans have the "equal work, equal pay" mantra drilled into them. Tip-based salaries are the complete anti-thesis to that. It is obvious that better-looking younger women get more tips than those without those characteristics. It rubs me and many others the wrong way; hence, I never tip because that is always fair. As a customer I 100% prefer "worse" service over having to deal with the tipping BS. Americans don't care and don't think about fairness at all in the same way.
  • alecbz 1mo ago
    At restaurants at least, most people I know just default tip 20% and only adjust up or down in pretty rare circumstances. Maybe it’s different in other parts of the US or for other generations, but I recall studies supporting that people generally have a set percent they always tip.
    • bjourne 1mo ago
      You recall wrong. :) The evidence that tipping is inherently unjust is overwhelming: https://freakonomics.com/2008/03/the-racial-tipping-point/ https://freakonomics.com/2008/03/the-racial-tipping-point/ The post about race but the results very obviously apply to other characteristics too. Though I very well understand that most people don't care much for evidence when it contradicts their anecdata.
      • alecbz 1mo ago
        Cab tipping culture is totally different and I would imagine varies significantly locally. This is the study I was recalling: https://www.academia.edu/51293325/Restaurant_Tipping_and_Service_Quality_A_Tenuous_Relationship https://www.academia.edu/51293325/Restaurant_Tipping_and_Ser... Though in looking for that I did find this other study that found racial bias: https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs/10.1111/soin.12056 https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs/10.1111/soin.12056 FWIW it comes off as pretty snarky to provide evidence and then pre-emptively insult the reader by assuming they won’t respond to it, or assume that disagreement will be a result of rejecting evidence in general and not having some more specific objection (e.g., cab vs restaurant tipping culture being different)
• rkuodys 1mo ago
  As far as I understand this is broken incentive system. Waiter can rarely make restaurant experience better - food is dependent on the kitchen - and it only worse make it worse - bad attitude, spitting in food etc. So from customer PoV, it makes no sense to pay percentage of the good as a compensation for the good. This model works where there is some risk associated - like if you sell a house, or do some legal counselling. But tips as a percentage of the bill makes no sense to me - waiter has no contribution in me ordering steak or salad. The offer, from waiter, to order something cheaper could be more tip-worthy service than alternative. Therefore, compensation as % of turnover should be Restaurant managers' concern and not the customers' problem.
• tossandthrow 1mo ago
  > Instead of checking on the customer every few minutes This is likely one of the absolute worst features of the US dining system. So many times I have been sitting in deep conversation with friends or colleagues just for a waiter to claim all attention to ask if we want to have refilled water. That they can even push themselves to such rude behavior is entirely insane to me.
  • anonymousDan 1mo ago
    I agree it's super annoying, but I can say for sure it's not limited to the US. Has also happened to me many times over here in Ireland/the UK. Usually by waiting staff that are a little inexperienced. Of course the people I'm in conversation with at the time are probably relieved to have a break from me rabbiting on...
  • briHass 1mo ago
    Experienced servers will usually try to 'feel out' a table to understand if they are in a rush, demanding, want to converse, etc. The same behavior that feels rude when you're catching up with old friends is often welcomed by a table that might have limited time to eat or that prefer to have things done without waiting or flagging someone down. You do realize that it's perfectly acceptable and commonplace to explain your group's preferences to the server upon first being introduced? You're really telling them exactly what would make you happiest while also reducing the effort they need to spend on your group, a mutually beneficial setup. Of course, incentives may not align in certain scenarios. On a busy night/time or at restaurants that don't have lots of seating, having a table that they can't 'turn over' quickly may be undesirable, especially if purchases (another round of drinks) aren't being made occasionally.
    • ghaff 1mo ago
      In NYC or London theater district (or an airport) at least, it's pretty common for the server to ask at the beginning about time constraints.
    • JohnFen 1mo ago
      > You do realize that it's perfectly acceptable and commonplace to explain your group's preferences to the server upon first being introduced? And say what? "Please don't come and check on us, and instead keep an eye for our signal" seems more rude than I'd be comfortable with doing.
• TrackerFF 1mo ago
  Used to have a lot of American workers here on some projects here, and mind you - these are very travelled and well-versed ones. The contractors that travel around the world for a solid chunk of their careers. They didn't really mind the the typical service here, where you'll have to wait a bit before a waiter sees you. You get used to it. On the other hand, you have the first time tourists, that will go "excuuuse meee" after 5 minutes in a restaurant if the waiter hasn't showed up to take a order, and become pissy when they discover that free refills isn't really a thing. Most Americans traveling abroad are in my experience polite and patient. But there are always the bad apples that will keep tabs on how many times the waiter comes by to offer something, and demand immediate service.
  • orthoxerox 1mo ago
    As a European, I expect the waiter to show their face within 5 minutes, at least to ask if we want anything to drink while still determining what to eat.
    • deleted 1mo ago
      [deleted]
• alexpotato 1mo ago
  > USA is that restaurants are almost always over staffed there. > European restaurants typically use a team service model, which greatly reduces the number of staff needed 100% this. US restaurants have a "zone" model and always seem to need 3x the staff of European restaurants. If you went the Euro model, you could have less staff and pay them more per head and therefore not need tipping. > There is no pressure to run up the bill or clear out quickly in this model. I think this is more a function of "need to turn over tables at some multiple per night to cover costs" but costs aren't just labor e.g. rent and food are also big line items.
• garbawarb 1mo ago
  They're not just incentivized to upsell, but also to get you out of the door as quickly as possible so they can get the next customers in. It makes for a much less pleasant dining experience than, say, France where waiters are generally hands-off.
  • GuB-42 1mo ago
    It is kind of a culture shock between France and the US: - French visiting the US: why is the waiter coming at us, does he want us out? - American visiting France: what is the waiter waiting for, didn't he notice we are finished? If France, if the waiter comes after you have finished your meal and asks you if you are done, it is usually a polite way of asking you to leave, usually because the restaurant is about to close. You are supposed to call the waiter when you are done, or, more commonly in casual restaurants, go pay at the cash register.