5 ms·

New EU-wide product repair rules come into force

262 points by austinallegro 1mo ago

troupo 1mo ago
> including a repair obligation for manufacturers of certain products Unfortunately regulations often don't go far enough. I have a ~10 year old iPad Pro in perfect working condition. I can basically do nothing with it, and increasingly it can no longer even browse the internet because Safari is so outdated on it. So it will be waste. See similar story about Amazon bricking old Kindles: https://www.techradar.com/tablets/ereaders/amazon-bricking-classic-kindles-is-a-sign-it-learned-nothing-from-sonos-biggest-mistake https://www.techradar.com/tablets/ereaders/amazon-bricking-c... But, this regulation is still a tiny step in the right direction.
- vv_ 1mo ago
  Updating old products is expensive, especially as their hardware falls further behind. Unless manufacturers adopt some kind of subscription model to justify the cost of continued updates, which would likely be very unpopular, I don’t see how they can realistically keep older devices supported indefinitely.
  - troupo 1mo ago
    They don't have to support it indefinitely. Allowing users install what they want on it would be the best case scenario. Instead we have bullshit like "your TV is three years old? No updates for you": https://developer.samsung.com/smarttv/develop/specifications/general-specifications.html https://developer.samsung.com/smarttv/develop/specifications...
    - vv_ 1mo ago
      Your link doesn't say that the device isn't getting any updates. It only says that, if I understood it correctly, pre-2023 devices don't receive OS updates. They still get guaranteed security updates for five years. > They don't have to support it indefinitely. How long should support for devices last in that case? And what should be supported?
      - troupo 1mo ago
        > if I understood it correctly, pre-2023 devices don't receive OS updates. Indeed. An ancient 3-year-old device isn't receiving any OS updates. Which means it doesn't get features, its core software isn't updated inculding such minor things as the browser (most apps on TVs are browser apps), store etc. Eventually its certificates will expire and it won't be able to connect to most things > How long should support for devices last in that case? And what should be supported? Depends on device. People don't buy TVs every year. So a 10-year support isn't out of the question. That said, 10 years should probably be minimum for almost all hardware. E.g. Microsoft supports Windows for ~10 years, and for a much wider array of hardware. After that: open up, and let people do whatever they want with it.
        mdp2021 1mo ago
        > An ["]ancient["] 3-year-old device isn't receiving any OS updates In the "save the planet" times.
  - seemaze 1mo ago
    unlock old hardware and let the community support
    - 6510 1mo ago
      Government could hold the keys. Sufficient weird behavior should also trigger release.
      - chocolatkey 1mo ago
        You really want to trust the government with keys to the kingdom? Like what they wanted here? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apple%E2%80%93FBI_encryption_dispute https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apple%E2%80%93FBI_encryption_d... And no, I wouldn’t trust an EU government or coalition any more than the US or any other country
        6510 1mo ago
        Could have a distributed system so physical access gives you nothing. Could have the vendor pick a time for release. If all nodes agree the time has arrived release the payload. Make it so that nothing can be released silently. Give the vendor some time to sound the alarm if something goes wrong. I don't know to what extend you could do a key update on illegitimate released. It seems you have bigger problems to worry about at that point. To do it earlier you could have judges sign for release and require one or more judge keys to decrypt the vendor keys.
    - vv_ 1mo ago
      It is not always possible to provide the required support. First, it is expensive, as someone needs to prepare all the materials and resources the community would need to continue supporting the product after official support ends. Second, there are legal restrictions, for example, you may not be allowed to provide access to the radio firmware. Finally, most companies simply do not want to make their intellectual property publicly available. You could make the argument that manufacturers only need to provide the means for the community to support the device, rather than extensive documentation. However, these communities are often so small that this would never be a priority for most companies. Combined with the IP-related issues, I don't think this is really feasible.
  - NL807 1mo ago
    >I don’t see how they can realistically keep older devices supported indefinitely. They don't have to. Open up the platform for linux and custom OS.
  - fhackenberger 1mo ago
    Well I'm quite sure the advances in LLMs abilities are going to be quite a nice change in this regard. If vendors would be required to release all firmware source code or at least full specs after devices drop out of support, it would be fairly simple and cheap now to port drivers to new kernel release or different OSs.
    - vv_ 1mo ago
      > If vendors would be required to release all firmware source code This may be the hope or expectation you have with regard to regulation, but I don't think it is ever going to happen because it would conflict with other regulatory requirements, especially in the realm of radio. You may say "regulation can be changed" but radio regulations exist for real reasons and I doubt anyone could convince the major governing bodies otherwise. Not to mention that such a requirement could effectively force companies to give up intellectual property that they have invested heavily in developing. What if a manufacturer outsources the firmware development to a vendor that specializes in firmware? If the manufacturer were required to release that firmware as open source, they would effectively be forcing that vendor to open-source its product. That could undermine the vendor's entire business model.
      - troupo 1mo ago
        > but radio regulations exist for real reasons and I doubt anyone could convince the major governing bodies otherwise. You're saying the chips in iPads etc. are not regulation-compliant and this non-compliance can be trivially unlocked if you know the specs?
        vv_ 1mo ago
        > You're saying the chips in iPads etc. are not regulation-compliant and this non-compliance can be trivially unlocked if you know the specs? The radio modules in iPads are compliant, assuming that the software using those radio modules is compliant as well. This is why manufacturers have to enforce specific combinations of software and hardware, as not all of the functionality and regulatory constraints are implemented in the hardware itself. If you gain access to the radio module of an iPad, you can definitely make it non-compliant, depending on the level of access the module provides. In my experience, however, radio modules generally provide enough access that a user could potentially cause regulatory issues if the relevant safeguards were removed or you do not adhere to the specification of the radio protocol you are using. If you don't believe me look at Bluetooth SIG listings and you will note that they specify specific software versions: https://qualification.bluetooth.com/Listings/Search https://qualification.bluetooth.com/Listings/Search
  - Hendrikto 1mo ago
    Vendors do not have to support their product indefinitely. They have to design their products in a way that they do not become useless after support ends. E.g. by opening up the bootloader and letting users install custom software.
    - vv_ 1mo ago
      > E.g. by opening up the bootloader and letting users install custom software. If limited to the bootloader, such as allowing users to run their own operating system, then that is definitely a possibility, with the exception of firmware running on the device itself. But I doubt that is what most users here are expecting, and in my opinion, it wouldn't provide much value to the vast majority of customers.
      - arlcode 1mo ago
        It would open up a tertiary market for smaller companies to do that (maybe even sell into a different market). Not every business venue needs to be a multi billion multi national and using some devices for a long time is better than burrying them all in a land fill.
        vv_ 1mo ago
        I'm sorry, instead of: > it wouldn't provide much value to the vast majority of customers I should have phrased it as: > it wouldn't provide enough value to their customers to create meaningful value for the company. You can argue that "ha ha, we shall enact regulation to force them to do this!" but the reality is that only a small percentage of customers would actually benefit from such regulation. Because most people are not going to tinker with their devices, especially if there is no easy or straightforward way to do so. So in the end, you'd have more regulation that makes it harder for new players to enter the market, while doing little to solve actual customer problems and ultimately imposing significant costs on manufacturers. For people who actually care about long-term device support, they can choose reputable manufacturers that already offer it. If no such manufacturers exist, that may instead represent an opportunity for someone to build a business around providing better long-term support.
- Hendrikto 1mo ago
  I recently had to throw out a first gen iPad that was physically still in mint condition (even including the battery, somehow), simply for the lack of support essentially turning it into a useless brick.
  - stavros 1mo ago
    I understand that Apple can't provide upgrades for free, but why can't I buy an upgrade for $30 or whatever? Better than throwing away perfectly good devices. And they won't let anyone install any other software onto the hardware, so I can't even rely on the free market providing what I want.
    - kubelsmieci 1mo ago
      > why can't I buy an upgrade for $30 or whatever? Because otherwise you won't buy new device for full price
      - stavros 1mo ago
        Well yes, of course. That shouldn't be the determinant, though.
        NolF 1mo ago
        There probably also won't be enough people to pay $30 per year to justify the salary of the people to maintain it. Microsoft tried that with Windows 10 and largely gave up outside of Corporations which they had by the gonads.
  - microtonal 1mo ago
    IMO this is one of the biggest gaps in the new EU repair rules (from what I have seen of it). It should mandate unlockable bootloaders, etc. or at the very least an unlockable bootloader once the regular support period is over. Imagine the cool things people could do with old iPads. Put Android or Ubuntu Touch and give it to people who cannot afford a tablet. Wall display for Home Assistant. Rip out the batteries and have a very low energy ARM server, etc.
- xxs 1mo ago
  the main issue is that's an ipad and it's locked. In contrast - a 15y+ laptop can be used (after few upgrades - i5-560M, 8GB RAM, 500GB SSD, AC-8260) to do office work: it runs the latest Firefox and Open Office + googledocs and friends without too much trouble.
  - DanielHB 1mo ago
    Android devices are unlocked, non-manufacturer OSes are still well outside of "easy" to install, much less get all features working. The main problem is that people maintaining the OS build for your hardware is the same people making the hardware. If legislation forced to divest both into separate companies the support would last far, far longer.
    - master-lincoln 1mo ago
      I would also want that for TV software or car software. But I guess there is no money to be made on that software...otherwise we would already see a bunch of non-manufacturer companies offering software for 3rd party devices that are unlocked, wouldn't we? Or maybe the used hardware is just not documented well enough
    - kenmacd 1mo ago
      > Android devices are unlocked <sigh> If only that were true. I have a Samsung S20 with 128gb storage and a adequate battery that is ewaste because of the locked bootloader and now permanently vulnerable kernel. Not disagreeing with your premise (the same should be done with ISPs — own the connection or the wires, but not both). I'd just take the "hard" install with fewer features over what we have now.
- embedding-shape 1mo ago
  > Unfortunately regulations often don't go far enough. Eh, what are you proposing? That these new regulations should cover +10 year old devices too? Similarly I still have an iPhone with a lightning port instead of the legally mandated USB-C port, but at no point was I expecting Apple to somehow change the ports of existing devices.
  - moffkalast 1mo ago
    Arguably compute performance has changed very little in the past five years and we're way into diminishing returns for silicon, so yes it makes perfect sense for devices to last more than a decade and remain perfectly capable machines now as long as they're not kneecapped by lack of support combined with a locked ecosystem. Manufacturers either need to keep it updated or they need to make it possible for others to do so.
    - ethbr1 1mo ago
      And with the memory crunch, it's likely that we passed peak memory in consumer devices, at least for a bit. So for next decade, older devices might often have more memory!
  - yonatan8070 1mo ago
    Not the OP. I'd say that we need regulation requiring user-replacable software. Even though a PC might not be supported by Windows 11, and subsequently major browsers will cease support. You can still install a 3rd-party OS like Linux which will maintain support far beyond the original EoL. Same goes for Android devices, I used to have an LG G2 (the phone, not the TV), which IIRC shipped with Android 4 or 5, and through LineageOS I updated it all the way to Android 11. Granted it couldn't remain relevant forever, its 32-bit ARM architecture is quite outdated and a lot of apps lost support for it, but for a while it remained quite useful.
- sajithdilshan 1mo ago
  I think for these kind of scenarios what Apple should do is unlock the device when it officially stop supporting with new iOS updates. You bought the device and you own it, so you should be able to use it as long as you want.
  - master-lincoln 1mo ago
    This should be a day 1 requirement. Why only when they stop supporting it?
- vrganj 1mo ago
  Try out Reynard, which ships up-to-date Gecko instead of relying on outdated system WebKit! https://github.com/minh-ton/reynard-browser https://github.com/minh-ton/reynard-browser Might help you get some more use out of it, thanks to the DMA :-)
  - terhechte 1mo ago
    I tried to install this the other day with Altstore and gave up after 30min. I learned there are two altstores, and the one I could install didn't support the "source" listed on that repository. Then I looked into the other options and all required some terminal messing and rooting and what not. I thought in the EU we should be able to just install software now.
- DanielHB 1mo ago
  Divorcing the OS from the hardware means stuff just lasts far, far longer. Like just a few years ago it became impossible to run 32bit windows which effectively killed all OS software updates for hardware older than ~2005. Most application software followed. On the Linux they just dropped support for the 486 and older versions of the kernel will likely still get security updates for a while.
- mrweasel 1mo ago
  The iPad is easily Apple worst product in terms of consumer friendliness. A lot of iPads shipped with way to little storage and I'd be surprised if Apple didn't know this. The 10 year old iPad is still a perfectly capable device, but it suffers from the lack of an updated operating system and enough storage to apply a would be update. There are millions of people for whom an iPad is all the computing they'd ever need (many just use their phone as well), but the larger screen makes it a good option of online shopping, banking, emails, government documents, calendar and appointment booking. The price is reasonable, but it doesn't need to replace every three to five years to serve that purpose. Arguably I don't know how Apple would make money on it long term, but the lack of update should count against them in terms of their environmental image. Apple is far from the worst, their phones updates for a long time, longer than most. Their laptops equally so. The iPad is very disappointing, because even if they issue an OS update, not all the devices can apply it, because of the lack of storage. Still better than my wife's old Samsung phone that was unable to apply any operating system update ever, because the storage was to limited.
- tzs 1mo ago
  Is bricking accurate there? From what I've read the old Kindles can no longer download from the Amazon store, which is the only reasonable way to get new Kindle books onto a Kindle. However, any Kindle books they have already downloaded to that Kindle will continue to work, and can be backed up and restored to a desktop computer over USB. Also any Kindle books they bought for that Kindle when Amazon allowed downloading to desktop for later USB loading can still be loaded that way. Finally, it still works for non-DRM books from other sources. It is essentially now like a non-Kindle ebook reader that also happens to be able to read the set of Kindle books you already have. Oh, and you also have to avoid doing a factory reset or deregistering the Kindle. It will then lose the ability to read Kindle books, making it even more like a non-Kindle ebook reader. You might not be totally screwed out of your Kindle books even then. We are talking about devices that were introduced in 2012 or earlier and last sold new in September 2014. Amazon only succeeded in hardening their DRM to the point that DRM removal tools don't work for most people in the last couple of years or so. That means there is a good chance that the Kindle books of most of the affected users have reasonably breakable DRM. There are some things that might have happened since they bought the books that updated the DRM on their copies, but if you just downloaded the books, and only later moved them off and on via USB (manually or with something like Calibre) to manage space on the device, and did not also read them in the Amazon desktop Kindle app then they are almost certainly still using the original DRM and that can easily be stripped.
ShadowOfThePit 1mo ago
> According to the European Commission, the new rules are expected to bring €4.8 billion in growth and investment within the EU. The source of this number seems to come from here, on page 73: https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/PDF/?uri=CELEX:52023SC0059#page=73 https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/PDF/?uri=CELE... Interestingly, the number is over a span of 15 years, and is only the calculated "Growth and investment". Other numbers are "Savings in production costs" at €15.6 billion, and "Consumer savings" at 25€ per consumer per year for an impressive total of €176.5 billion. It also lists "Business adjustment costs" at €8.1 billion, "Business administrative costs" at just €69.8 million and "Implementation and enforcement" at €105.5 million. I wonder why "Growth and investment" was chosed as the number to use. Maybe to keep emphasising their gist of "the EU is the future for sustainable growth"? Also, here are the announcements by the Commission: https://commission.europa.eu/news-and-media/news/right-repair-new-consumer-rights-easy-and-attractive-repairs-2026-07-31_en https://commission.europa.eu/news-and-media/news/right-repai... https://www.consilium.europa.eu/en/policies/right-to-repair-products/ https://www.consilium.europa.eu/en/policies/right-to-repair-...
jeremiahlee 1mo ago
Great, now require it for software.
- Y-bar 1mo ago
  They have already begun. It’s called the Product Liability Directive (2024/2853) and forces software providers to guarantee fitness for purposes and safety.
  - moffkalast 1mo ago
    Does that conceptually imply we might get newer OS releases for ARM machines that ship with one that's already outdated and call it good? That would be pretty epic, but I doubt it covers it.
- embedding-shape 1mo ago
  I'm not disagreeing, but also I don't understand what you mean. It's already legal for you to repair your own software, AFAIK? Or are you proposing they force only "source available" software or something?
lnsru 1mo ago
Good luck to hardware startups in Europe! For every developer now a company needs one technical writer or compliance specialist. That basically means that all small everyday electronics products will come from overseas. Either because it’s cheaper or it’s cheaper and nobody cares about certification.
- birdsongs 1mo ago
  This is so disingenuous. I've been part of two Norwegian hard tech startups in the past few years (one as a founder, one currently as an embedded lead) and all it took was our mech engineer (which you will always need) making an accessible case design and publishing a short two page PDF on disassembly. Down the road, if we make it, we will have access to funds for a few roles that maintain spare parts and a repair (more likely replace/refurb) department, that will coordinate with our manufacturing houses. None of this blocks innovation or velocity for early stage startups. Unless you have more concrete examples I'm somehow missing?
  - lnsru 1mo ago
    How good is your employer prepared for Cyber Resilience Act?
    - birdsongs 1mo ago
      Fine. We're already meeting the goals for free by virtue of building a secure product and infrastructure from the start. (Read: a good product.) When risk assessments and certs are required and roll out (1.5 years from now), we'll just get a contractor or two on board for a few months to do it, and to set up the processes to keep it rolling. It's in the budget. People act like these are industry shattering requirements, but hard tech is already subject to a plethora of requirements we have to handle every day. We will always have some kind of process for CE certification, battery safety requirements, GDPR, or open source licensing and toolchain access, etc, etc. This is just another (honestly, minor) process to roll in with the rest of them.
- mk89 1mo ago
expedition32 1mo ago
I live in a rich European country. This is not Shenzhen. The, very scarce, technically inclined people who know how to repair a vacuum cleaner or electronic toothbrush can get a real job with an hourly rate that makes repairs economically unfeasible. Repair cafes are nice hobby projects for pensionados but it is not going to move the needle.
- shiandow 1mo ago
  You underestimate my willingness to 'under sell' my free time by spending it to fix something I own.
  - philipallstar 1mo ago
    How does that generalise across the population?
    - shiandow 1mo ago
      Hard to tell, but if you were to replace anything when doing so would be cheaper I think people would be throwing away a lot more. If you want an economic argument there's no way to sell my free time for anywhere near the market rate on such a short notice.
      - philipallstar 1mo ago
        Sorry, I can't quite parse either of those sentences. Are you able to say them another way, or a simpler way?
        shiandow 1mo ago
        I can spend an hour repairing my bicycle tire and get it working for a few years or I can buy several new tires by working more hours. If everyone did that we would need a lot more bicycle tires. Edit: If you want a more extreme example. I might be able to afford more socks by doing paid work than I can wash in the same amount of time.
kotaKat 1mo ago
[dead]
braiamp 1mo ago
Yet another baffling comment section, but in this case the excuse doesn't work [0]. In a forum full of "tech guys" that like "tech solutions" the number of comments that are against being allowed to thinker and repair their own devices is above zero.... we really need to drown out those voices, they represent a very shameful set of individuals that taint what (I would like to think) we like and prefer [0]: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=49395714 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=49395714
jhoechtl 1mo ago
I would like to see small appliances inbuilt batteries (mostly Li-Ion based) be prohibted. It contributes to device obsolescence and is a security risk --> burning waste dumps.
- mhitza 1mo ago
  I think this regulation that comes into effect February of next year concerns all kinds of batteries, not only those of smartphones https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/HTML/?uri=CELEX:32023R1542 https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/HTML/?uri=CEL... . I think, because I didn't doublecheck right now further than reading the first matching "appliances" paragraph (ctrl-f). What I know off the top of my head, from reading the legislation a while ago. Is that technical reasons, such as waterproof devices, will still be able to retain non user replaceable batteries if it is needed to keep the device waterproof.
- m000 1mo ago
  Especially vaping devices. Cigarette butts were at least easier to dispose of than these plastic encased tips and single use vapes.
  - fhn 1mo ago
    it's insane to me they designed it to be higher cost(li-ion + usb charging + oled screens!) than just using disposable AA batteries.
    - mrguyorama 1mo ago
      It should be helping you to understand just how absurdly cheap per unit a commodity consumer product is. Vs how much you pay for it.
  - pjc50 1mo ago
    I don't think single use vapes were ever compliant with WEEE, it's just that it's not enforced.
zombot 1mo ago
And how much of it will be ineffective because the worst offenders have bought their ways out?
- Beretta_Vexee 1mo ago
  It’s a step in the right direction; the alternative would be to do nothing whilst waiting for a perfect text that will never materialise.
apatheticonion 1mo ago
I would like this to be extended to software. If I buy an Android phone, I should be able to maintain/update the operating system. If I buy a MacBook, I should be able to maintain or change the operating system. If I buy a TV, smart watch, microwave - I should be able to maintain their software. The only thing prohibiting this is the fact that drivers are obfuscated and/or hardware schematics sufficient to produce drivers are not provided. IMO, if the EU wants any technical sovereignty, they'd address this as I don't see European companies producing a competitor to the MacBook - I do however see European companies being capable of creating a competing operating system (or Linux) to install on a MacBook, but only if Apple is compelled to allow them. The same goes for smartphones, cars, and any digital device
- carlosjobim 1mo ago
  You are able to do that, just like you are able to drill out the cylinders of your brand new car. If you are skilled enough. But the manufacturer doesn't have any obligation to teach you how.
  - eimrine 1mo ago
    Drilling is easy, dealing with ECU is not.
  - benj111 1mo ago
    Except a better comparison is you can replace your cylinders, but then the engine won't work because the ECU detects none registered cylinders.
- eimrine 1mo ago
  Of course you should, pal! You should not buy any proprietary shite to stop investing into even more invasive proprietary antiuseful technologies. But you use to not do that, so we both are going to experience suffering. Thank you for being the bad actor for me.
  - braiamp 1mo ago
shevy-java 1mo ago
> People now have the right to request that manufacturers repair products that are technically repairable under EU law. This kind of misses the point though. Don't get me wrong, the above is nice to have as a law, but it does not really understand the underlying problem domain. Louis Rossmann explained it several times already; the problem was not that primarily that upstream companies refuse to repair something, but that they deliberately make it harder for downstream folks to repair something, for many reasons. Planned obsolescence, trade secrets and other shenanigans, unable to purchase replacements parts and so forth. Having a law that forces easy repairs onto the upstream company, DOES NOT FIX THE DOWNSTREAM PROBLEM; and in some cases it will make it worse. If the EU were serious about fighting for consumers, they would require of all companies operating in the EU, WITHOUT EXCEPTION, to not deliberately make it harder for downstream people to repair things. We now live in the age of 3D printing, so really repairing anything should be much much easier (at the least for simple materials; I understand that 3D printing isn't that great yet with regards to tiny electronics parts). To me it seems as if lobbyists always sneak in and worsen the legislation here. Both in the EU and in the USA.
- ninalanyon 1mo ago
  No one is claiming that what the EU has done is perfect but you have to start somewhere. After that you move on and improve.
kleiba2 1mo ago
This is more like a "right to have repaired" than a "right to repair", unfortunately.
benj111 1mo ago
>"By day we consist of fixing generally washing machines and dryers and dishwashers" But what does he do by night???
gandalfian 1mo ago
An official iphone screen for self repair costs more than my entire android phone. That's why people still steal them even locked and unusable. My miele washing machine will last twenty years, possibly indefinitely but every seven years it needs a repair costing £300 from Miele... Repairable is a start, economically repairable is trickier.

262 points by austinallegro 1mo ago

> including a repair obligation for manufacturers of certain products Unfortunately regulations often don't go far enough. I have a ~10 year old iPad Pro in perfect working condition. I can basically do nothing with it, and increasingly it can no longer even browse the internet because Safari is so outdated on it. So it will be waste. See similar story about Amazon bricking old Kindles: https://www.techradar.com/tablets/ereaders/amazon-bricking-classic-kindles-is-a-sign-it-learned-nothing-from-sonos-biggest-mistake https://www.techradar.com/tablets/ereaders/amazon-bricking-c... But, this regulation is still a tiny step in the right direction.

vv_ 1mo ago
Updating old products is expensive, especially as their hardware falls further behind. Unless manufacturers adopt some kind of subscription model to justify the cost of continued updates, which would likely be very unpopular, I don’t see how they can realistically keep older devices supported indefinitely.
- troupo 1mo ago
  They don't have to support it indefinitely. Allowing users install what they want on it would be the best case scenario. Instead we have bullshit like "your TV is three years old? No updates for you": https://developer.samsung.com/smarttv/develop/specifications/general-specifications.html https://developer.samsung.com/smarttv/develop/specifications...
  - vv_ 1mo ago
    Your link doesn't say that the device isn't getting any updates. It only says that, if I understood it correctly, pre-2023 devices don't receive OS updates. They still get guaranteed security updates for five years. > They don't have to support it indefinitely. How long should support for devices last in that case? And what should be supported?
    - troupo 1mo ago
      > if I understood it correctly, pre-2023 devices don't receive OS updates. Indeed. An ancient 3-year-old device isn't receiving any OS updates. Which means it doesn't get features, its core software isn't updated inculding such minor things as the browser (most apps on TVs are browser apps), store etc. Eventually its certificates will expire and it won't be able to connect to most things > How long should support for devices last in that case? And what should be supported? Depends on device. People don't buy TVs every year. So a 10-year support isn't out of the question. That said, 10 years should probably be minimum for almost all hardware. E.g. Microsoft supports Windows for ~10 years, and for a much wider array of hardware. After that: open up, and let people do whatever they want with it.
      - mdp2021 1mo ago
        > An ["]ancient["] 3-year-old device isn't receiving any OS updates In the "save the planet" times.
- seemaze 1mo ago
  unlock old hardware and let the community support
  - 6510 1mo ago
    Government could hold the keys. Sufficient weird behavior should also trigger release.
    - chocolatkey 1mo ago
      You really want to trust the government with keys to the kingdom? Like what they wanted here? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apple%E2%80%93FBI_encryption_dispute https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apple%E2%80%93FBI_encryption_d... And no, I wouldn’t trust an EU government or coalition any more than the US or any other country
      - 6510 1mo ago
        Could have a distributed system so physical access gives you nothing. Could have the vendor pick a time for release. If all nodes agree the time has arrived release the payload. Make it so that nothing can be released silently. Give the vendor some time to sound the alarm if something goes wrong. I don't know to what extend you could do a key update on illegitimate released. It seems you have bigger problems to worry about at that point. To do it earlier you could have judges sign for release and require one or more judge keys to decrypt the vendor keys.
  - vv_ 1mo ago
    It is not always possible to provide the required support. First, it is expensive, as someone needs to prepare all the materials and resources the community would need to continue supporting the product after official support ends. Second, there are legal restrictions, for example, you may not be allowed to provide access to the radio firmware. Finally, most companies simply do not want to make their intellectual property publicly available. You could make the argument that manufacturers only need to provide the means for the community to support the device, rather than extensive documentation. However, these communities are often so small that this would never be a priority for most companies. Combined with the IP-related issues, I don't think this is really feasible.
- NL807 1mo ago
  >I don’t see how they can realistically keep older devices supported indefinitely. They don't have to. Open up the platform for linux and custom OS.
- fhackenberger 1mo ago
  Well I'm quite sure the advances in LLMs abilities are going to be quite a nice change in this regard. If vendors would be required to release all firmware source code or at least full specs after devices drop out of support, it would be fairly simple and cheap now to port drivers to new kernel release or different OSs.
  - vv_ 1mo ago
    > If vendors would be required to release all firmware source code This may be the hope or expectation you have with regard to regulation, but I don't think it is ever going to happen because it would conflict with other regulatory requirements, especially in the realm of radio. You may say "regulation can be changed" but radio regulations exist for real reasons and I doubt anyone could convince the major governing bodies otherwise. Not to mention that such a requirement could effectively force companies to give up intellectual property that they have invested heavily in developing. What if a manufacturer outsources the firmware development to a vendor that specializes in firmware? If the manufacturer were required to release that firmware as open source, they would effectively be forcing that vendor to open-source its product. That could undermine the vendor's entire business model.
    - troupo 1mo ago
      > but radio regulations exist for real reasons and I doubt anyone could convince the major governing bodies otherwise. You're saying the chips in iPads etc. are not regulation-compliant and this non-compliance can be trivially unlocked if you know the specs?
      - vv_ 1mo ago
        > You're saying the chips in iPads etc. are not regulation-compliant and this non-compliance can be trivially unlocked if you know the specs? The radio modules in iPads are compliant, assuming that the software using those radio modules is compliant as well. This is why manufacturers have to enforce specific combinations of software and hardware, as not all of the functionality and regulatory constraints are implemented in the hardware itself. If you gain access to the radio module of an iPad, you can definitely make it non-compliant, depending on the level of access the module provides. In my experience, however, radio modules generally provide enough access that a user could potentially cause regulatory issues if the relevant safeguards were removed or you do not adhere to the specification of the radio protocol you are using. If you don't believe me look at Bluetooth SIG listings and you will note that they specify specific software versions: https://qualification.bluetooth.com/Listings/Search https://qualification.bluetooth.com/Listings/Search
- Hendrikto 1mo ago
  Vendors do not have to support their product indefinitely. They have to design their products in a way that they do not become useless after support ends. E.g. by opening up the bootloader and letting users install custom software.
  - vv_ 1mo ago
    > E.g. by opening up the bootloader and letting users install custom software. If limited to the bootloader, such as allowing users to run their own operating system, then that is definitely a possibility, with the exception of firmware running on the device itself. But I doubt that is what most users here are expecting, and in my opinion, it wouldn't provide much value to the vast majority of customers.
    - arlcode 1mo ago
      It would open up a tertiary market for smaller companies to do that (maybe even sell into a different market). Not every business venue needs to be a multi billion multi national and using some devices for a long time is better than burrying them all in a land fill.
      - vv_ 1mo ago
        I'm sorry, instead of: > it wouldn't provide much value to the vast majority of customers I should have phrased it as: > it wouldn't provide enough value to their customers to create meaningful value for the company. You can argue that "ha ha, we shall enact regulation to force them to do this!" but the reality is that only a small percentage of customers would actually benefit from such regulation. Because most people are not going to tinker with their devices, especially if there is no easy or straightforward way to do so. So in the end, you'd have more regulation that makes it harder for new players to enter the market, while doing little to solve actual customer problems and ultimately imposing significant costs on manufacturers. For people who actually care about long-term device support, they can choose reputable manufacturers that already offer it. If no such manufacturers exist, that may instead represent an opportunity for someone to build a business around providing better long-term support.
Hendrikto 1mo ago
I recently had to throw out a first gen iPad that was physically still in mint condition (even including the battery, somehow), simply for the lack of support essentially turning it into a useless brick.
- stavros 1mo ago
  I understand that Apple can't provide upgrades for free, but why can't I buy an upgrade for $30 or whatever? Better than throwing away perfectly good devices. And they won't let anyone install any other software onto the hardware, so I can't even rely on the free market providing what I want.
  - kubelsmieci 1mo ago
    > why can't I buy an upgrade for $30 or whatever? Because otherwise you won't buy new device for full price
    - stavros 1mo ago
      Well yes, of course. That shouldn't be the determinant, though.
      - NolF 1mo ago
        There probably also won't be enough people to pay $30 per year to justify the salary of the people to maintain it. Microsoft tried that with Windows 10 and largely gave up outside of Corporations which they had by the gonads.
- microtonal 1mo ago
  IMO this is one of the biggest gaps in the new EU repair rules (from what I have seen of it). It should mandate unlockable bootloaders, etc. or at the very least an unlockable bootloader once the regular support period is over. Imagine the cool things people could do with old iPads. Put Android or Ubuntu Touch and give it to people who cannot afford a tablet. Wall display for Home Assistant. Rip out the batteries and have a very low energy ARM server, etc.
xxs 1mo ago
the main issue is that's an ipad and it's locked. In contrast - a 15y+ laptop can be used (after few upgrades - i5-560M, 8GB RAM, 500GB SSD, AC-8260) to do office work: it runs the latest Firefox and Open Office + googledocs and friends without too much trouble.
- DanielHB 1mo ago
  Android devices are unlocked, non-manufacturer OSes are still well outside of "easy" to install, much less get all features working. The main problem is that people maintaining the OS build for your hardware is the same people making the hardware. If legislation forced to divest both into separate companies the support would last far, far longer.
  - master-lincoln 1mo ago
    I would also want that for TV software or car software. But I guess there is no money to be made on that software...otherwise we would already see a bunch of non-manufacturer companies offering software for 3rd party devices that are unlocked, wouldn't we? Or maybe the used hardware is just not documented well enough
  - kenmacd 1mo ago
    > Android devices are unlocked <sigh> If only that were true. I have a Samsung S20 with 128gb storage and a adequate battery that is ewaste because of the locked bootloader and now permanently vulnerable kernel. Not disagreeing with your premise (the same should be done with ISPs — own the connection or the wires, but not both). I'd just take the "hard" install with fewer features over what we have now.
embedding-shape 1mo ago
> Unfortunately regulations often don't go far enough. Eh, what are you proposing? That these new regulations should cover +10 year old devices too? Similarly I still have an iPhone with a lightning port instead of the legally mandated USB-C port, but at no point was I expecting Apple to somehow change the ports of existing devices.
- moffkalast 1mo ago
  Arguably compute performance has changed very little in the past five years and we're way into diminishing returns for silicon, so yes it makes perfect sense for devices to last more than a decade and remain perfectly capable machines now as long as they're not kneecapped by lack of support combined with a locked ecosystem. Manufacturers either need to keep it updated or they need to make it possible for others to do so.
  - ethbr1 1mo ago
    And with the memory crunch, it's likely that we passed peak memory in consumer devices, at least for a bit. So for next decade, older devices might often have more memory!
- yonatan8070 1mo ago
  Not the OP. I'd say that we need regulation requiring user-replacable software. Even though a PC might not be supported by Windows 11, and subsequently major browsers will cease support. You can still install a 3rd-party OS like Linux which will maintain support far beyond the original EoL. Same goes for Android devices, I used to have an LG G2 (the phone, not the TV), which IIRC shipped with Android 4 or 5, and through LineageOS I updated it all the way to Android 11. Granted it couldn't remain relevant forever, its 32-bit ARM architecture is quite outdated and a lot of apps lost support for it, but for a while it remained quite useful.
sajithdilshan 1mo ago
I think for these kind of scenarios what Apple should do is unlock the device when it officially stop supporting with new iOS updates. You bought the device and you own it, so you should be able to use it as long as you want.
- master-lincoln 1mo ago
  This should be a day 1 requirement. Why only when they stop supporting it?
vrganj 1mo ago
Try out Reynard, which ships up-to-date Gecko instead of relying on outdated system WebKit! https://github.com/minh-ton/reynard-browser https://github.com/minh-ton/reynard-browser Might help you get some more use out of it, thanks to the DMA :-)
- terhechte 1mo ago
  I tried to install this the other day with Altstore and gave up after 30min. I learned there are two altstores, and the one I could install didn't support the "source" listed on that repository. Then I looked into the other options and all required some terminal messing and rooting and what not. I thought in the EU we should be able to just install software now.
DanielHB 1mo ago
Divorcing the OS from the hardware means stuff just lasts far, far longer. Like just a few years ago it became impossible to run 32bit windows which effectively killed all OS software updates for hardware older than ~2005. Most application software followed. On the Linux they just dropped support for the 486 and older versions of the kernel will likely still get security updates for a while.
mrweasel 1mo ago
The iPad is easily Apple worst product in terms of consumer friendliness. A lot of iPads shipped with way to little storage and I'd be surprised if Apple didn't know this. The 10 year old iPad is still a perfectly capable device, but it suffers from the lack of an updated operating system and enough storage to apply a would be update. There are millions of people for whom an iPad is all the computing they'd ever need (many just use their phone as well), but the larger screen makes it a good option of online shopping, banking, emails, government documents, calendar and appointment booking. The price is reasonable, but it doesn't need to replace every three to five years to serve that purpose. Arguably I don't know how Apple would make money on it long term, but the lack of update should count against them in terms of their environmental image. Apple is far from the worst, their phones updates for a long time, longer than most. Their laptops equally so. The iPad is very disappointing, because even if they issue an OS update, not all the devices can apply it, because of the lack of storage. Still better than my wife's old Samsung phone that was unable to apply any operating system update ever, because the storage was to limited.
tzs 1mo ago
Is bricking accurate there? From what I've read the old Kindles can no longer download from the Amazon store, which is the only reasonable way to get new Kindle books onto a Kindle. However, any Kindle books they have already downloaded to that Kindle will continue to work, and can be backed up and restored to a desktop computer over USB. Also any Kindle books they bought for that Kindle when Amazon allowed downloading to desktop for later USB loading can still be loaded that way. Finally, it still works for non-DRM books from other sources. It is essentially now like a non-Kindle ebook reader that also happens to be able to read the set of Kindle books you already have. Oh, and you also have to avoid doing a factory reset or deregistering the Kindle. It will then lose the ability to read Kindle books, making it even more like a non-Kindle ebook reader. You might not be totally screwed out of your Kindle books even then. We are talking about devices that were introduced in 2012 or earlier and last sold new in September 2014. Amazon only succeeded in hardening their DRM to the point that DRM removal tools don't work for most people in the last couple of years or so. That means there is a good chance that the Kindle books of most of the affected users have reasonably breakable DRM. There are some things that might have happened since they bought the books that updated the DRM on their copies, but if you just downloaded the books, and only later moved them off and on via USB (manually or with something like Calibre) to manage space on the device, and did not also read them in the Amazon desktop Kindle app then they are almost certainly still using the original DRM and that can easily be stripped.

ShadowOfThePit 1mo ago

> According to the European Commission, the new rules are expected to bring €4.8 billion in growth and investment within the EU. The source of this number seems to come from here, on page 73: https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/PDF/?uri=CELEX:52023SC0059#page=73 https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/PDF/?uri=CELE... Interestingly, the number is over a span of 15 years, and is only the calculated "Growth and investment". Other numbers are "Savings in production costs" at €15.6 billion, and "Consumer savings" at 25€ per consumer per year for an impressive total of €176.5 billion. It also lists "Business adjustment costs" at €8.1 billion, "Business administrative costs" at just €69.8 million and "Implementation and enforcement" at €105.5 million. I wonder why "Growth and investment" was chosed as the number to use. Maybe to keep emphasising their gist of "the EU is the future for sustainable growth"? Also, here are the announcements by the Commission: https://commission.europa.eu/news-and-media/news/right-repair-new-consumer-rights-easy-and-attractive-repairs-2026-07-31_en https://commission.europa.eu/news-and-media/news/right-repai... https://www.consilium.europa.eu/en/policies/right-to-repair-products/ https://www.consilium.europa.eu/en/policies/right-to-repair-...

jeremiahlee 1mo ago

Great, now require it for software.

Y-bar 1mo ago
They have already begun. It’s called the Product Liability Directive (2024/2853) and forces software providers to guarantee fitness for purposes and safety.
- moffkalast 1mo ago
  Does that conceptually imply we might get newer OS releases for ARM machines that ship with one that's already outdated and call it good? That would be pretty epic, but I doubt it covers it.
embedding-shape 1mo ago
I'm not disagreeing, but also I don't understand what you mean. It's already legal for you to repair your own software, AFAIK? Or are you proposing they force only "source available" software or something?

lnsru 1mo ago

Good luck to hardware startups in Europe! For every developer now a company needs one technical writer or compliance specialist. That basically means that all small everyday electronics products will come from overseas. Either because it’s cheaper or it’s cheaper and nobody cares about certification.

birdsongs 1mo ago
This is so disingenuous. I've been part of two Norwegian hard tech startups in the past few years (one as a founder, one currently as an embedded lead) and all it took was our mech engineer (which you will always need) making an accessible case design and publishing a short two page PDF on disassembly. Down the road, if we make it, we will have access to funds for a few roles that maintain spare parts and a repair (more likely replace/refurb) department, that will coordinate with our manufacturing houses. None of this blocks innovation or velocity for early stage startups. Unless you have more concrete examples I'm somehow missing?
- lnsru 1mo ago
  How good is your employer prepared for Cyber Resilience Act?
  - birdsongs 1mo ago
    Fine. We're already meeting the goals for free by virtue of building a secure product and infrastructure from the start. (Read: a good product.) When risk assessments and certs are required and roll out (1.5 years from now), we'll just get a contractor or two on board for a few months to do it, and to set up the processes to keep it rolling. It's in the budget. People act like these are industry shattering requirements, but hard tech is already subject to a plethora of requirements we have to handle every day. We will always have some kind of process for CE certification, battery safety requirements, GDPR, or open source licensing and toolchain access, etc, etc. This is just another (honestly, minor) process to roll in with the rest of them.
mk89 1mo ago

expedition32 1mo ago

I live in a rich European country. This is not Shenzhen. The, very scarce, technically inclined people who know how to repair a vacuum cleaner or electronic toothbrush can get a real job with an hourly rate that makes repairs economically unfeasible. Repair cafes are nice hobby projects for pensionados but it is not going to move the needle.

shiandow 1mo ago
You underestimate my willingness to 'under sell' my free time by spending it to fix something I own.
- philipallstar 1mo ago
  How does that generalise across the population?
  - shiandow 1mo ago
    Hard to tell, but if you were to replace anything when doing so would be cheaper I think people would be throwing away a lot more. If you want an economic argument there's no way to sell my free time for anywhere near the market rate on such a short notice.
    - philipallstar 1mo ago
      Sorry, I can't quite parse either of those sentences. Are you able to say them another way, or a simpler way?
      - shiandow 1mo ago
        I can spend an hour repairing my bicycle tire and get it working for a few years or I can buy several new tires by working more hours. If everyone did that we would need a lot more bicycle tires. Edit: If you want a more extreme example. I might be able to afford more socks by doing paid work than I can wash in the same amount of time.

kotaKat 1mo ago

[dead]

braiamp 1mo ago

Yet another baffling comment section, but in this case the excuse doesn't work [0]. In a forum full of "tech guys" that like "tech solutions" the number of comments that are against being allowed to thinker and repair their own devices is above zero.... we really need to drown out those voices, they represent a very shameful set of individuals that taint what (I would like to think) we like and prefer [0]: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=49395714 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=49395714

jhoechtl 1mo ago

I would like to see small appliances inbuilt batteries (mostly Li-Ion based) be prohibted. It contributes to device obsolescence and is a security risk --> burning waste dumps.

mhitza 1mo ago
I think this regulation that comes into effect February of next year concerns all kinds of batteries, not only those of smartphones https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/HTML/?uri=CELEX:32023R1542 https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/HTML/?uri=CEL... . I think, because I didn't doublecheck right now further than reading the first matching "appliances" paragraph (ctrl-f). What I know off the top of my head, from reading the legislation a while ago. Is that technical reasons, such as waterproof devices, will still be able to retain non user replaceable batteries if it is needed to keep the device waterproof.
m000 1mo ago
Especially vaping devices. Cigarette butts were at least easier to dispose of than these plastic encased tips and single use vapes.
- fhn 1mo ago
  it's insane to me they designed it to be higher cost(li-ion + usb charging + oled screens!) than just using disposable AA batteries.
  - mrguyorama 1mo ago
    It should be helping you to understand just how absurdly cheap per unit a commodity consumer product is. Vs how much you pay for it.
- pjc50 1mo ago
  I don't think single use vapes were ever compliant with WEEE, it's just that it's not enforced.

zombot 1mo ago

And how much of it will be ineffective because the worst offenders have bought their ways out?

Beretta_Vexee 1mo ago
It’s a step in the right direction; the alternative would be to do nothing whilst waiting for a perfect text that will never materialise.

apatheticonion 1mo ago

I would like this to be extended to software. If I buy an Android phone, I should be able to maintain/update the operating system. If I buy a MacBook, I should be able to maintain or change the operating system. If I buy a TV, smart watch, microwave - I should be able to maintain their software. The only thing prohibiting this is the fact that drivers are obfuscated and/or hardware schematics sufficient to produce drivers are not provided. IMO, if the EU wants any technical sovereignty, they'd address this as I don't see European companies producing a competitor to the MacBook - I do however see European companies being capable of creating a competing operating system (or Linux) to install on a MacBook, but only if Apple is compelled to allow them. The same goes for smartphones, cars, and any digital device

carlosjobim 1mo ago
You are able to do that, just like you are able to drill out the cylinders of your brand new car. If you are skilled enough. But the manufacturer doesn't have any obligation to teach you how.
- eimrine 1mo ago
  Drilling is easy, dealing with ECU is not.
- benj111 1mo ago
  Except a better comparison is you can replace your cylinders, but then the engine won't work because the ECU detects none registered cylinders.
eimrine 1mo ago
Of course you should, pal! You should not buy any proprietary shite to stop investing into even more invasive proprietary antiuseful technologies. But you use to not do that, so we both are going to experience suffering. Thank you for being the bad actor for me.
- braiamp 1mo ago

shevy-java 1mo ago

> People now have the right to request that manufacturers repair products that are technically repairable under EU law. This kind of misses the point though. Don't get me wrong, the above is nice to have as a law, but it does not really understand the underlying problem domain. Louis Rossmann explained it several times already; the problem was not that primarily that upstream companies refuse to repair something, but that they deliberately make it harder for downstream folks to repair something, for many reasons. Planned obsolescence, trade secrets and other shenanigans, unable to purchase replacements parts and so forth. Having a law that forces easy repairs onto the upstream company, DOES NOT FIX THE DOWNSTREAM PROBLEM; and in some cases it will make it worse. If the EU were serious about fighting for consumers, they would require of all companies operating in the EU, WITHOUT EXCEPTION, to not deliberately make it harder for downstream people to repair things. We now live in the age of 3D printing, so really repairing anything should be much much easier (at the least for simple materials; I understand that 3D printing isn't that great yet with regards to tiny electronics parts). To me it seems as if lobbyists always sneak in and worsen the legislation here. Both in the EU and in the USA.

ninalanyon 1mo ago
No one is claiming that what the EU has done is perfect but you have to start somewhere. After that you move on and improve.

kleiba2 1mo ago

This is more like a "right to have repaired" than a "right to repair", unfortunately.

benj111 1mo ago

>"By day we consist of fixing generally washing machines and dryers and dishwashers" But what does he do by night???

gandalfian 1mo ago

An official iphone screen for self repair costs more than my entire android phone. That's why people still steal them even locked and unusable. My miele washing machine will last twenty years, possibly indefinitely but every seven years it needs a repair costing £300 from Miele... Repairable is a start, economically repairable is trickier.