4 ms·

As noted in the default test, this site is by ZSA, a keyboard company. Their boards are pricey, but excellent. I have both their Moonlander, which sits on my de

by Zambyte 2mo ago

As noted in the default test, this site is by ZSA, a keyboard company. Their boards are pricey, but excellent. I have both their Moonlander, which sits on my desk at home, and their Voyager, which I went with quieter key switches (brown rather than blue) for taking on the go. Their boards are very comfortable; I highly recommend considering split, columnar keyboards like what they offer if you spend most of your day at a computer. As a side, I switched to Dvorak when I first bought my Moonlander about 6 years ago. I have only used split keyboards with Dvorak, and I have only used traditional staggered keyboards with QWERTY. My muscle memory is well isolated between the two, and I have no trouble switching between them (though as it has now been many years since I regularly used a physical QWERTY keyboard, my WPM on one is definitely lower than it used to be).

crimsoneer 2mo ago
Honestly, ZSA deserves so much love. I have a Moonlander and Voyager and they're both so darn excellent.
- ssl-3 2mo ago
  But why? I've had dozens of keyboards in my PC life, so far. The earliest examples were Chicony clicky-mechanical boards in the late nineteen-eighties. Those were pretty cool (and they're very much NLA). I've had innumerable membrane keyboards. Some were more useful than others. I had a very long and pleasant run of membrane boards made by NMB, which were good while they lasted. Over the past 5 years or so, I've been mostly using boards with Cherry MX Blue switches -- assembled by whomever. Those worked fine, too. And lately, in the past month or two, I replaced the one at home with a keyboard that uses Hall effect sensors for each key in place of any kind of conventional electrical switch. It's been fine; in fact, it's been quite lovely so far. It's a joy to type with. --- I haven't named any keyboard makers here except for 1980s-era Chicony and PS/2 era NMB. Some of my keyboards have been good, some have been great, and some others have been trash. That's my background. What's yours? What makes ZSA deserve "so much love"? Can you elaborate?
  - __mharrison__ 2mo ago
    Why? They brought columnar lately to the mass(es).
    - ssl-3 2mo ago
      So straight-and-narrow columns of keys are what they're into, and that's a big push that is an important part of what they're doing? (I did look at their website earlier and the details of what I found seemed to get wrapped up in the tiny details of some low-profile keyswitch or other. It's also possible that I am unobservant, stupid, or otherwise inept and that I missed the main concept, but that's what I found and I didn't think it was very interesting.)
  - hrnnnnnn 2mo ago
    They make well-engineered keyboards, have excellent customer service and made a very usable web front-end to QMK for configuration.
  - Zambyte 2mo ago
    Some things I really like are: - Generally high quality boards. I expect to be using my ZSA boards for decades. - Uses open, standard, programmable firmware (qmk). - They have fostered a community around their boards (importantly making it easy to share and discover layouts and promoting 3D printable accessories). - I have found their live support team to be very accessible and knowledgable. It's hard not to be biased having spent >$700 on keyboards from them, feeling the need to justify my purchases a bit. At their prices it's easy to find high quality boards elsewhere or build your own board on open tech, but I think you'll be hard pressed to find similar offerings both with such excellent support from the company and such a vibrant community.
microtonal 2mo ago
I went with quieter key switches (brown rather than blue) If you like tactile switches, try the Golden Kiwi from MoErgo [1] (also Choc v1, so fits the Voyager). It pulled of the near-impossible combination of a profound tactile bump, with only 42gf tactile force, while being much smoother and silent than Browns or Sunsets. Only disclaimer I should add is that I was one of the beta testers for the switch. But I can't go back to anything else. [1] https://www.moergo.com/pages/go60-key-switches https://www.moergo.com/pages/go60-key-switches
- hijklmnopq 2mo ago
  Is there a reason they ship only 20? Kind of a weird number given we need at least 26 for the alphabet https://www.moergo.com/products/pre-order-ships-from-usa-kailh-choc-v1-silent-tactile-key-switches-golden-kiwi-20-pack?variant=54073541722385 https://www.moergo.com/products/pre-order-ships-from-usa-kai...
  - opan 2mo ago
    I believe it's so people who use a 60% or 80% keyboard can order 20-40 fewer than those with a 100% keyboard.
    - jonesetc 2mo ago
      Yep, or if you're just doing a numpad.
- devanian 2mo ago
  lowprokb also has some great custom choc switches; I found I ended up preferring the very lightest silent linear ones for all but the home row, for which I have a slightly heavier switch.
masterj 2mo ago
I second the recommendation. I use the Voyager, and it's a delight! I switched when I was suffering from a lot of wrist pain, and it's never come back. I only wish they offered a wireless version for a cleaner desk. I landed on the Ambients Twilight silent switches https://lowprokb.ca/collections/switches/products/ambients-silent-choc-switches https://lowprokb.ca/collections/switches/products/ambients-s...
laptoprabbit 2mo ago
Anyone else commit the hubris of buying an unmarked Moonlander [1]? perhaps it's finally time to learn to use it... [1] https://imgur.com/a/zsa-moonlander-2ACNkDc https://imgur.com/a/zsa-moonlander-2ACNkDc
- Carrok 2mo ago
  I haven’t had printed symbols on any keyboard, split or not, in many years.
- hijklmnopq 2mo ago
  Yes. Was my first ortho and I went full blanks and yeah didn't work out. Went back to normal keycaps to get to grips with it. Now I'm on a Halcyon Elora but still use the Moonlander at home
- makeset 2mo ago
  Maybe it's harder at that size where you have to move your hands, but I use a 3x5 split, and my eyes never leave the screen, so printed keycaps are just pointless.
  - so-cal-schemer 2mo ago
    I use a 3x4. Long press for 'Q and 'Z...
- hrnnnnnn 2mo ago
  One thing that might help is setting the backlight colours to mark out different groups of keys.
- stavros 2mo ago
  I don't use symbols on my keyboards. Since they're programmable, the symbols are always wrong.
- hyperjeff 2mo ago
  Yes! I did this and love it. My layouts are heavily customized so no standard painted keycaps would do me any good anyway. I use a coherent set of key colors on various layers to provide reminders of what various key clusters are about. Looks great too.
eikenberry 2mo ago
What's the general opinion of their Ergodox EZ keyboard? Just as good as the other ZSA keyboards, better, worse? Thanks.
- opan 2mo ago
  If you care about the ergonomics of the thumb cluster, the Ergodox and others like it have a bad one. It sticks out too far. For a more modern and ergonomic thumb cluster, check out Pinky4, Iris, or Corne. I've been using a Pinky4 for years and all the thumb keys are easy to reach and comfortable. I haven't used the Ergodox EZ, but I did borrow an Infinity Ergodox for a few months once.
  - eikenberry 2mo ago
    Thanks! I'll take a look at those. I'm coming from an Advantage 2 (that they discontinued a few months ago) and wasn't sure about the Advantage 360's increased price.. So I have been shopping around.
Jcampuzano2 2mo ago
I love my ZSA Voyager, but after getting into the split keyboard space and having wrist/finger issues, I ended up needing to go with something that supported a concave well, and built in/better tenting. I've been using my Glove 80 ever since. But the Voyager was a nice step and I still keep it on my desk.
- zargon 2mo ago
  The Glove80 looks close to what I want, but that thumb cluster looks basically as bad as the Ergodox one. Too many keys overall, especially pinky ones.
  - smohare 2mo ago
    I have both of these keyboards (as well as the Moonlander, Voyager and Go60). The thumb cluster on the Glove is significantly more comfortable for me than the Ergodox / Moonlander. I never found either of the latter boards particularly comfortable. That said, I only really use the three innermost thumbs on the Glove. The Go for me has a reasonable thumb cluster but the middle “resting” key is slightly further than what I was used to. It took a few days to adjust. If you want something really comfortable try a Svalboard, but it requires more training.
  - JimBlackwood 2mo ago
    Check out the Charybdis from BastardKB: https://bastardkb.com/product/charybdis-mini-prebuilt-preorder/ https://bastardkb.com/product/charybdis-mini-prebuilt-preord... They also have self-assembly kits where you solder it together yourself. That’s what I did, the instructions were great!
    - zargon 2mo ago
      Thanks for this suggestion. I have used thumb trackballs before and they cause me some strain. But the Skylla looks very promising.
  - Jcampuzano2 2mo ago
    You don't really have to use them all. Realistically on each side I use ~3-4 of the thumb keys consistently and I have the others bound to just things I rarely do. I also completely unbound the outermost row of keys on both sides. i.e. far left and far right. Since I found one of the biggest issues I had that aggravated my issues were stretching the pinky. I also have a Kinesis Advantage 360 pro but I think its better suited for people with bigger hands than me. I do prefer its tenting setup though since its much quicker/easier to use. The Glove80's is a bit more custom but I think I'd have preferred if there was like a good mix of the two.
tom_ 2mo ago
I accidentally did the same thing, and after 20+ years I've also found my QWERTY speed remains pretty good. I can type QWERTY ok on a split keyboard, but I have to look at the keys. I can't type Dvorak at all on a normal keyboard, but it's not a big problem. (It is annoying when using my laptop's built-in keyboard, but I probably end up doing that for the equivalent of all of about 2 working days per year, and even more rarely for any actual work.)
firegodjr 2mo ago
I loved my ergodox, but it made my laptop keyboard difficult to use due to remapped backspace along with the columnar vs stepped layouts. Hoping and praying for columnar laptops one of these days
- __mharrison__ 2mo ago
  Not sure why framework doesn't do this...
QuantumNomad_ 2mo ago
> I have only used split keyboards with Dvorak, and I have only used traditional staggered keyboards with QWERTY. My muscle memory is well isolated between the two, and I have no trouble switching between them Mostly similar for me, but I never considered that the fact that I’m able to pretty comfortably switch between using my laptop keyboard which is QWERTY, and my external USB keyboard which is Dvorak based, even when not having used one or the other for quite some time might actually be helped by as you say that they are two different kinds of keyboards with different feel.
devanian 2mo ago
Also a huge fan - I started off with a Moonlander and then upgraded (downgraded, number of keys-wise, I guess) to a Voyager. Takes a lot of getting used to.
so-cal-schemer 2mo ago
I also picked up and heavily customized a minimal (3x5+3 or 3x4+2) columnar split and a novel keyboard layout during Lockdown, and now can type faster with it than I could originally with greater comfort and accuracy. The high number of rolls actually felt pleasurable to type on compared to the scattered movements of QWERTY; at higher speeds, though, it's more demanding as the movements are so minimal and the sequences are more intricate. On long sessions, I can feel some strain on the tendons on the back of my hands; a keyboard with wells or something to grip like a Twiddler could help. Over time, I expect my speed to continue to advance as I sync my keystrokes faster; there is just substantially less finger travel from home row. I also retained my ability and speed typing QWERTY by continuing to use it on a standard keyboard the majority of the time. Really, I just kept practicing the alt layout by typing out articles and books on the ortho and a laptop. At this point I think I'll maintain muscle memory for vi/emacs in QWERTY and switch on the fly to the alt layout for long entries. I use Miryoku style meta keys, and layers for arrows, home-page(up/down)-end, mouse-keys, scroll-wheel, numpad, symbols, media, and F-keys. I'm thinking of adding combos for international letters and symbols next. backspace-delete and enter-space+tab are under thumbs like a Kinesis. Escape is a left hand combo. I also set a lock function for the layers with tap+hold and release with a designated key -- it works great with numpad, scroll, mouse, and arrows. I'd like to add a rotory dial. For switches, I enjoy the light action Kailh box whites that came with my split, but I'd like to try out some silent low-pro ones for travel and more comfort. I have a second ortho with a number row and much heavier linear ones that I'm getting used to; so far it works great and I have more planned for it. On a regular keyboard I've found mapping the capslock key to be a second backspace is much more ergonomic. I use it in conjunction with Ctrl to delete the previous word and then retype.
- so-cal-schemer 1mo ago
  Oh. And let me tell you about my business cards... :D

by Zambyte 2mo ago

crimsoneer 2mo ago

Honestly, ZSA deserves so much love. I have a Moonlander and Voyager and they're both so darn excellent.

ssl-3 2mo ago
But why? I've had dozens of keyboards in my PC life, so far. The earliest examples were Chicony clicky-mechanical boards in the late nineteen-eighties. Those were pretty cool (and they're very much NLA). I've had innumerable membrane keyboards. Some were more useful than others. I had a very long and pleasant run of membrane boards made by NMB, which were good while they lasted. Over the past 5 years or so, I've been mostly using boards with Cherry MX Blue switches -- assembled by whomever. Those worked fine, too. And lately, in the past month or two, I replaced the one at home with a keyboard that uses Hall effect sensors for each key in place of any kind of conventional electrical switch. It's been fine; in fact, it's been quite lovely so far. It's a joy to type with. --- I haven't named any keyboard makers here except for 1980s-era Chicony and PS/2 era NMB. Some of my keyboards have been good, some have been great, and some others have been trash. That's my background. What's yours? What makes ZSA deserve "so much love"? Can you elaborate?
- __mharrison__ 2mo ago
  Why? They brought columnar lately to the mass(es).
  - ssl-3 2mo ago
    So straight-and-narrow columns of keys are what they're into, and that's a big push that is an important part of what they're doing? (I did look at their website earlier and the details of what I found seemed to get wrapped up in the tiny details of some low-profile keyswitch or other. It's also possible that I am unobservant, stupid, or otherwise inept and that I missed the main concept, but that's what I found and I didn't think it was very interesting.)
- hrnnnnnn 2mo ago
  They make well-engineered keyboards, have excellent customer service and made a very usable web front-end to QMK for configuration.
- Zambyte 2mo ago
  Some things I really like are: - Generally high quality boards. I expect to be using my ZSA boards for decades. - Uses open, standard, programmable firmware (qmk). - They have fostered a community around their boards (importantly making it easy to share and discover layouts and promoting 3D printable accessories). - I have found their live support team to be very accessible and knowledgable. It's hard not to be biased having spent >$700 on keyboards from them, feeling the need to justify my purchases a bit. At their prices it's easy to find high quality boards elsewhere or build your own board on open tech, but I think you'll be hard pressed to find similar offerings both with such excellent support from the company and such a vibrant community.

microtonal 2mo ago

I went with quieter key switches (brown rather than blue) If you like tactile switches, try the Golden Kiwi from MoErgo [1] (also Choc v1, so fits the Voyager). It pulled of the near-impossible combination of a profound tactile bump, with only 42gf tactile force, while being much smoother and silent than Browns or Sunsets. Only disclaimer I should add is that I was one of the beta testers for the switch. But I can't go back to anything else. [1] https://www.moergo.com/pages/go60-key-switches https://www.moergo.com/pages/go60-key-switches

hijklmnopq 2mo ago
Is there a reason they ship only 20? Kind of a weird number given we need at least 26 for the alphabet https://www.moergo.com/products/pre-order-ships-from-usa-kailh-choc-v1-silent-tactile-key-switches-golden-kiwi-20-pack?variant=54073541722385 https://www.moergo.com/products/pre-order-ships-from-usa-kai...
- opan 2mo ago
  I believe it's so people who use a 60% or 80% keyboard can order 20-40 fewer than those with a 100% keyboard.
  - jonesetc 2mo ago
    Yep, or if you're just doing a numpad.
devanian 2mo ago
lowprokb also has some great custom choc switches; I found I ended up preferring the very lightest silent linear ones for all but the home row, for which I have a slightly heavier switch.

masterj 2mo ago

I second the recommendation. I use the Voyager, and it's a delight! I switched when I was suffering from a lot of wrist pain, and it's never come back. I only wish they offered a wireless version for a cleaner desk. I landed on the Ambients Twilight silent switches https://lowprokb.ca/collections/switches/products/ambients-silent-choc-switches https://lowprokb.ca/collections/switches/products/ambients-s...

laptoprabbit 2mo ago

Anyone else commit the hubris of buying an unmarked Moonlander [1]? perhaps it's finally time to learn to use it... [1] https://imgur.com/a/zsa-moonlander-2ACNkDc https://imgur.com/a/zsa-moonlander-2ACNkDc

Carrok 2mo ago
I haven’t had printed symbols on any keyboard, split or not, in many years.
hijklmnopq 2mo ago
Yes. Was my first ortho and I went full blanks and yeah didn't work out. Went back to normal keycaps to get to grips with it. Now I'm on a Halcyon Elora but still use the Moonlander at home
makeset 2mo ago
Maybe it's harder at that size where you have to move your hands, but I use a 3x5 split, and my eyes never leave the screen, so printed keycaps are just pointless.
- so-cal-schemer 2mo ago
  I use a 3x4. Long press for 'Q and 'Z...
hrnnnnnn 2mo ago
One thing that might help is setting the backlight colours to mark out different groups of keys.
stavros 2mo ago
I don't use symbols on my keyboards. Since they're programmable, the symbols are always wrong.
hyperjeff 2mo ago
Yes! I did this and love it. My layouts are heavily customized so no standard painted keycaps would do me any good anyway. I use a coherent set of key colors on various layers to provide reminders of what various key clusters are about. Looks great too.

eikenberry 2mo ago

What's the general opinion of their Ergodox EZ keyboard? Just as good as the other ZSA keyboards, better, worse? Thanks.

opan 2mo ago
If you care about the ergonomics of the thumb cluster, the Ergodox and others like it have a bad one. It sticks out too far. For a more modern and ergonomic thumb cluster, check out Pinky4, Iris, or Corne. I've been using a Pinky4 for years and all the thumb keys are easy to reach and comfortable. I haven't used the Ergodox EZ, but I did borrow an Infinity Ergodox for a few months once.
- eikenberry 2mo ago
  Thanks! I'll take a look at those. I'm coming from an Advantage 2 (that they discontinued a few months ago) and wasn't sure about the Advantage 360's increased price.. So I have been shopping around.

Jcampuzano2 2mo ago

I love my ZSA Voyager, but after getting into the split keyboard space and having wrist/finger issues, I ended up needing to go with something that supported a concave well, and built in/better tenting. I've been using my Glove 80 ever since. But the Voyager was a nice step and I still keep it on my desk.

zargon 2mo ago
The Glove80 looks close to what I want, but that thumb cluster looks basically as bad as the Ergodox one. Too many keys overall, especially pinky ones.
- smohare 2mo ago
  I have both of these keyboards (as well as the Moonlander, Voyager and Go60). The thumb cluster on the Glove is significantly more comfortable for me than the Ergodox / Moonlander. I never found either of the latter boards particularly comfortable. That said, I only really use the three innermost thumbs on the Glove. The Go for me has a reasonable thumb cluster but the middle “resting” key is slightly further than what I was used to. It took a few days to adjust. If you want something really comfortable try a Svalboard, but it requires more training.
- JimBlackwood 2mo ago
  Check out the Charybdis from BastardKB: https://bastardkb.com/product/charybdis-mini-prebuilt-preorder/ https://bastardkb.com/product/charybdis-mini-prebuilt-preord... They also have self-assembly kits where you solder it together yourself. That’s what I did, the instructions were great!
  - zargon 2mo ago
    Thanks for this suggestion. I have used thumb trackballs before and they cause me some strain. But the Skylla looks very promising.
- Jcampuzano2 2mo ago
  You don't really have to use them all. Realistically on each side I use ~3-4 of the thumb keys consistently and I have the others bound to just things I rarely do. I also completely unbound the outermost row of keys on both sides. i.e. far left and far right. Since I found one of the biggest issues I had that aggravated my issues were stretching the pinky. I also have a Kinesis Advantage 360 pro but I think its better suited for people with bigger hands than me. I do prefer its tenting setup though since its much quicker/easier to use. The Glove80's is a bit more custom but I think I'd have preferred if there was like a good mix of the two.

tom_ 2mo ago

I accidentally did the same thing, and after 20+ years I've also found my QWERTY speed remains pretty good. I can type QWERTY ok on a split keyboard, but I have to look at the keys. I can't type Dvorak at all on a normal keyboard, but it's not a big problem. (It is annoying when using my laptop's built-in keyboard, but I probably end up doing that for the equivalent of all of about 2 working days per year, and even more rarely for any actual work.)

firegodjr 2mo ago

I loved my ergodox, but it made my laptop keyboard difficult to use due to remapped backspace along with the columnar vs stepped layouts. Hoping and praying for columnar laptops one of these days

__mharrison__ 2mo ago
Not sure why framework doesn't do this...

QuantumNomad_ 2mo ago

> I have only used split keyboards with Dvorak, and I have only used traditional staggered keyboards with QWERTY. My muscle memory is well isolated between the two, and I have no trouble switching between them Mostly similar for me, but I never considered that the fact that I’m able to pretty comfortably switch between using my laptop keyboard which is QWERTY, and my external USB keyboard which is Dvorak based, even when not having used one or the other for quite some time might actually be helped by as you say that they are two different kinds of keyboards with different feel.

devanian 2mo ago

Also a huge fan - I started off with a Moonlander and then upgraded (downgraded, number of keys-wise, I guess) to a Voyager. Takes a lot of getting used to.

so-cal-schemer 2mo ago

I also picked up and heavily customized a minimal (3x5+3 or 3x4+2) columnar split and a novel keyboard layout during Lockdown, and now can type faster with it than I could originally with greater comfort and accuracy. The high number of rolls actually felt pleasurable to type on compared to the scattered movements of QWERTY; at higher speeds, though, it's more demanding as the movements are so minimal and the sequences are more intricate. On long sessions, I can feel some strain on the tendons on the back of my hands; a keyboard with wells or something to grip like a Twiddler could help. Over time, I expect my speed to continue to advance as I sync my keystrokes faster; there is just substantially less finger travel from home row. I also retained my ability and speed typing QWERTY by continuing to use it on a standard keyboard the majority of the time. Really, I just kept practicing the alt layout by typing out articles and books on the ortho and a laptop. At this point I think I'll maintain muscle memory for vi/emacs in QWERTY and switch on the fly to the alt layout for long entries. I use Miryoku style meta keys, and layers for arrows, home-page(up/down)-end, mouse-keys, scroll-wheel, numpad, symbols, media, and F-keys. I'm thinking of adding combos for international letters and symbols next. backspace-delete and enter-space+tab are under thumbs like a Kinesis. Escape is a left hand combo. I also set a lock function for the layers with tap+hold and release with a designated key -- it works great with numpad, scroll, mouse, and arrows. I'd like to add a rotory dial. For switches, I enjoy the light action Kailh box whites that came with my split, but I'd like to try out some silent low-pro ones for travel and more comfort. I have a second ortho with a number row and much heavier linear ones that I'm getting used to; so far it works great and I have more planned for it. On a regular keyboard I've found mapping the capslock key to be a second backspace is much more ergonomic. I use it in conjunction with Ctrl to delete the previous word and then retype.

so-cal-schemer 1mo ago
Oh. And let me tell you about my business cards... :D