5 ms·
The article's definition of consciousness is precise, but it's not what people are referring to in most cases where the word "consciousness" is used. Of course,
by txrx0000 2mo ago
The article's definition of consciousness is precise, but it's not what people are referring to in most cases where the word "consciousness" is used. Of course, a word can have multiple definitions. But colloquially, when people say consciousness, we usually mean the thing that goes away when we sleep or are anesthetized. I don't think there's a much better way to define that. The contrast between the wakeful and non-wakeful state as oneself experiences from the inside is precisely what defines consciousness in the colloquial sense. It seems to be a self-defining concept because I can't even define what "experiences" means without thinking about the wakeful/non-wakeful contrast phenomena that is consciousness, and "experiences" was supposed to be a part of the definition of "consciousness" one sentence ago.
- lostmsu 2mo agoWhy only as oneself experiences? I can easily tell if a horse is conscious or not. The whole matter is rather simple IMO. Let's say it's variability (number of distinct if you prefer discrete) of stable responses to external stimuli.
- JK-Swizzle 2mo agoI am unsure as to what you are trying to say here. It reads to me as “the word the article discusses has a more popular homonym, but they are clearly not talking about that”.
- txrx0000 2mo agoI'm thinking out loud and pointing out the difference to avoid confusion, and also trying to invite discussion around the colloquial def, because I think the colloquial def is the most important/useful one.
- sillywabbit 2mo agoAnesthesia is a rather different state than sleep.
- api 2mo agoI had some serious surgery a few years ago and paid attention when I went under to see if I could recall anything. Nope. You don’t exist for that time. Anesthesiologist counts down 10, 9, 8, 7, and then I was teleported to the recovery bed. I consider it incredibly weird and very unlike sleep. Consciousness is off, instantly, then back.
- boxed 2mo agoWell... memory is off at least.
- api 2mo agoAhh, yes, the cosmic horror hypothesis about how anesthesia works. You can't move and experience everything but remember nothing. But hey, I don't have cancer anymore. So if I had to endure four hours of agony that I don't remember, I'll take it.
- boxed 2mo agoWell we do know you can't feel pain, because we've actually done the MRI studies to confirm. Which makes me feel a lot better personally. But I also have a doctor friend who tells me how removing my appendix actually worked: I go under. Then they take out the appendix. Then they wake me so that I can, with help, move from the operating table to the wheeled bed. This part is not a part of my memory, but people can talk to me and I can get down from the table and onto the bed (again, with help). So I'd say there's some middle ground here.
- deleted 2mo ago[deleted]
- txrx0000 2mo agoWhen observed by a different conscious being, yes. But from the inside observed by oneself, it feels quite similar, besides the fact that sleep is initiated by oneself, and the wakeful state transition for sleep is more gradual than for anesthesia. I think that distinction matters because strictly speaking, oneself only has access to one's own consciousness, and that defines one's own understanding of the word "consciousness". It's not possible for me to be you after all, and whatever inferences I make about other people being conscious is based on the fact that I experience my consciousness, and you are similar to me in some specific way (such as being, presumably, a human), therefore you must be conscious. Of course, I'm taking a materialist stance here but that's what's practical to talk about anyway.
- XorNot 2mo agoThe more interesting aspect of that is that there's an element of recall implicit in that though: if someone was active, moving around and interacting according to observers then whether they were conscious during that time is heavily informed by whether they remember it later. Quite where that line exists then is very fuzzy because while for example I feel conscious while I'm typing this, it's also clearly possible I could but then have no memory of it.
- adolph 2mo ago> when people say consciousness, we usually mean the thing that goes away when we sleep or are anesthetized. How is dreaming during sleep different from consciousness when awake?
- txrx0000 2mo agoIt feels very different to me. I have a dream perhaps once a year, and it's nowhere near as vivid as real experiences. Dreams don't have much color, shape, or audio, just a blurry mess where I could barely make out things resembling objects or people. There is no way to mistake that with reality.
- IAmBroom 2mo ago> But colloquially, when people say consciousness, we usually mean And by "we", you mean "you". If I read an article about the nature of "consciousness", I assume it means "as opposed to being a rock or a twig". N=2; two definitions.
- bossyTeacher 2mo ago> But colloquially, when people say consciousness, we usually mean the thing that goes away when we sleep or are anesthetized. Sounds like attention rather than consciousness. You lose your attention.