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It's funny how the Wikipedia article call hallucinations "ill effects". I am yet to hear people call caffeine effects "ill effects". People and their sociocultu

It's funny how the Wikipedia article call hallucinations "ill effects". I am yet to hear people call caffeine effects "ill effects". People and their sociocultural biases, uh?

awestroke 2mo ago
The large majority of people want absolutely nothing to do with hallucinations
- cactusplant7374 2mo ago
  The religious will love them if they arrive naturally. There are even a few studies that administered psilocybin to religious professionals. They described it as the most profound experience of their life.
- deleted 2mo ago
  [deleted]
- yvan-eht-nioj 2mo ago
  Is this the same majority of people who seem happy for social media companies to shape their realities?
  - awestroke 2mo ago
    Imagine a person who does not want social media companies to shape their reality, yet does not want their perception of reality to be compromised by hallucinations. Or perhaps you would be fine with being snuck LSD on your way to work, or court, or picking up your kids from kindergarten? Most people do not seek out hallucinations
clarionbell 2mo ago
Seeing things that don't exist is generally detrimental to your short term survival.
- gyomu 2mo ago
  Arguably the long term survival and flourishing of the human species is due to humans being able to “see things that don’t exist”.
  - bossyTeacher 2mo ago
    I couldn't have phrased it better.
  - FeepingCreature 2mo ago
    What a wild claim. You can't just say it's arguable, you have to actually argue it. Personally I think it's true but only in a metaphorical way that doesn't apply to hallucinogenic drugs; inasmuch as it applies to hallucinogenic drugs, it's false.
    - embedding-shape 2mo ago
      I dunno if it's so wild, but maybe I'm zooming out way too much. The example that came to my mind was "mathematics", something that doesn't "exists" but we "see" it everywhere and humanity got massively improved thanks to it. Electricity would be another example :) I guess how wild the claim is depends on how charitable you read it.
      - FeepingCreature 2mo ago
        Right, and I think any serious civilizational benefit of drugs in the sub-hallucinatory regime is at least unproven, and benefit in the hallucinatory regime doesn't exist. That's sorta what I mean: "where big, false; where true, not big."
        embedding-shape 2mo ago
        > sub-hallucinatory regime is at least unproven, and benefit in the hallucinatory regime doesn't exist It's a interesting train of thought if nothing else. How would we "prove" a thing like "humanity benefits from being able to create, share and read books?" for example? Or that we can organize in grassroot movements? It's also really hard to qualify directly, as the impact is so indirect. Same with psychedelics, a lot of scientists, researchers, creatives or even business-people attribute psychedelic usage to some of their success in their fields, but how can we really know if it was because of that or not?
LoganDark 2mo ago
Are you talking about caffeine dependence? For many people, caffeine itself feels beneficial.
- inigyou 2mo ago
  So does meth.
  - LoganDark 2mo ago
    Meth can be neuroprotective at low doses and is available by prescription for ADHD and obesity. Though, I treat my ADHD with dextroamph and I don't think I need to experience meth (I've heard it is more prone to addiction).
    - _superposition_ 2mo ago
      Vast majority of illicit adhd/Adderall on the street is actually just lower dosed meth. You probably would never know the difference, and many people don't.
      - LoganDark 2mo ago
        I get mine from the pharmacy. A lot of sold-as pure isomers are also simply racemic. People often won't notice that either (due to placebo and other factors), but they won't be getting the full benefit they wanted. There are outliers like myself of course that cannot have levoamphetamine, it completely disables me. I do not know why and I don't really care to find out. The one and only time I took regular adderall, I had to sleep it off.
- bregma 2mo ago
  So does social media. Keep scrolling man, just one more hit.
- nick__m 2mo ago
  Caffeine is beneficial; it's not just a feeling. It has a neuroprotective effect shown in animal model of ALZ and a statistically significant effect in humans that decaffeinated beverages don't provide. https://www.mdpi.com/1420-3049/27/12/3737 https://www.mdpi.com/1420-3049/27/12/3737 https://www.health.harvard.edu/diet-and-nutrition/harvard-study-a-couple-of-daily-cups-of-coffee-or-tea-linked-to-lower-dementia-risk https://www.health.harvard.edu/diet-and-nutrition/harvard-st...
dns_snek 2mo ago
> People and their sociocultural biases No, intent matters. If you drugged someone with caffeine (or someone drank it not knowing what it was) then their symptoms would also be called ill effects.
embedding-shape 2mo ago
> I am yet to hear people call caffeine effects "ill effects". People and their sociocultural biases, uh? Coffee has well known ill-effects, I think every coffee drinker at one point have drank too much and felt them themselves. Apparently such a big topic that it isn't just a section of the Caffeine page, it has it's very own Wikipedia page! https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caffeine_toxicity https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caffeine_toxicity
blks 2mo ago
Unknowingly taking psychedelic substances is nothing positive, however positive outlook you may have on them.
vintermann 2mo ago
There are a lot of people with a cultural bias toward hallucinations, who want really hard to get high off anything that could allegedly make them high. But despite that, this mushroom is not a popular recreational drug. Much like amanita muscaria, which certain people insist must be great if used right, is common as dirt, and yet is so unpopular as a drug that it isn't even restricted. By these same accounts, you'll get sick. It's unpleasant. Not even the most enthusiastic "psychonauts" seem to manage to take joy in this thing, little people or not.
- microtherion 2mo ago
  That does not seem to stop people from taking Ayahuasca, which seems to very commonly make people sick.
  - ImPostingOnHN 2mo ago
    It stops the uncountably large majority of people from doing it. Like more then 99.9% of people.
    - bossyTeacher 2mo ago
      > It stops the uncountably large majority of people from doing it. Like more then 99.9% of people. Most people don't even know about it or have the means to access it as its either not available or not legal in their jurisdiction so not accurate. About 45% of the adults drink. How much lower would that percentage be if alcohol was little known and subjected to the same regulations psychedelics are under?
      - vintermann 2mo ago
        That it's not legal in their jurisdiction doesn't stop other drugs. Hallucinogenic drugs just don't catch on. They have periodic fads, but even then they're a fringe phenomenon compared to other illegal drugs. It's the best argument to legalize them if you ask me. It's clearly a self-limiting problem - I think it's simply because of unpleasant experiences, but I suppose it's also possible that the life-changing experiences make them not need the drugs anymore.
dpoloncsak 2mo ago
Not sure if it's the same here, but I've been told your usual 'trip' off psilocybin bearing mushrooms is really just a form of food-poisoning
- pjerem 2mo ago
  You should read a little about it and I think you would change your mind. The adverse effects of psilocybin are well known and documented and we know for sure that it’s not physically dangerous. For the trip part we mostly know how it work and how interact and it can be healing (or bad trip depending on the context). Still you may have have digestive adverse effects, not because of poisoning but because the human gut cannot digest crude mushrooms. But you will not be physically sick per se like you would be with a bacteria or a toxin, your immune system will not fight anything.
  - dpoloncsak 2mo ago
    Oh, I've done more than my fair share of substances across the hallucinogen class, with a preference for Shrooms or LSD I just was under the impression that from a 'medical(?)' point of view, the trip is nothing more than food poisoning
    - kadoban 2mo ago
      That's probably based on some specific definition of food poisoning where you get effects from the food. It's semantics rather than saying anything useful about what's going on.
breezybottom 2mo ago
What's funny about that? If people started hallucinating from coffee that would be considered an ill effect.
ImPostingOnHN 2mo ago
If you're basing your perception of sociocultural biases on what you (1 person) have seen or not seen, you may be speaking to your own biases, rather than others' To wit: multiple people here have definitely heard the thing you have yet to hear.
diydsp 2mo ago
[flagged]
mrguyorama 2mo ago
Some ADHD stimulant medications quite literally boost your mood. A literal anti-depression pill. This function is listed as a side effect of being on these meds. Which is true, it's not being used to treat depression, though is often being used to treat people with depression and treat the root cause of that depression. It just also happens to "perk" you up.
tsol 2mo ago
Not all hallucinations are pleasant. Magic mushrooms are known to be pleasurable for many people, but I've heard these mushrooms are not very fun and can last days. Given these effects have been known for a long time there could be a good reason it never caught on

It's funny how the Wikipedia article call hallucinations "ill effects". I am yet to hear people call caffeine effects "ill effects". People and their sociocultural biases, uh?

awestroke 2mo ago

The large majority of people want absolutely nothing to do with hallucinations

cactusplant7374 2mo ago
The religious will love them if they arrive naturally. There are even a few studies that administered psilocybin to religious professionals. They described it as the most profound experience of their life.
deleted 2mo ago
[deleted]
yvan-eht-nioj 2mo ago
Is this the same majority of people who seem happy for social media companies to shape their realities?
- awestroke 2mo ago
  Imagine a person who does not want social media companies to shape their reality, yet does not want their perception of reality to be compromised by hallucinations. Or perhaps you would be fine with being snuck LSD on your way to work, or court, or picking up your kids from kindergarten? Most people do not seek out hallucinations

clarionbell 2mo ago

Seeing things that don't exist is generally detrimental to your short term survival.

gyomu 2mo ago
Arguably the long term survival and flourishing of the human species is due to humans being able to “see things that don’t exist”.
- bossyTeacher 2mo ago
  I couldn't have phrased it better.
- FeepingCreature 2mo ago
  What a wild claim. You can't just say it's arguable, you have to actually argue it. Personally I think it's true but only in a metaphorical way that doesn't apply to hallucinogenic drugs; inasmuch as it applies to hallucinogenic drugs, it's false.
  - embedding-shape 2mo ago
    I dunno if it's so wild, but maybe I'm zooming out way too much. The example that came to my mind was "mathematics", something that doesn't "exists" but we "see" it everywhere and humanity got massively improved thanks to it. Electricity would be another example :) I guess how wild the claim is depends on how charitable you read it.
    - FeepingCreature 2mo ago
      Right, and I think any serious civilizational benefit of drugs in the sub-hallucinatory regime is at least unproven, and benefit in the hallucinatory regime doesn't exist. That's sorta what I mean: "where big, false; where true, not big."
      - embedding-shape 2mo ago
        > sub-hallucinatory regime is at least unproven, and benefit in the hallucinatory regime doesn't exist It's a interesting train of thought if nothing else. How would we "prove" a thing like "humanity benefits from being able to create, share and read books?" for example? Or that we can organize in grassroot movements? It's also really hard to qualify directly, as the impact is so indirect. Same with psychedelics, a lot of scientists, researchers, creatives or even business-people attribute psychedelic usage to some of their success in their fields, but how can we really know if it was because of that or not?

LoganDark 2mo ago

Are you talking about caffeine dependence? For many people, caffeine itself feels beneficial.

inigyou 2mo ago
So does meth.
- LoganDark 2mo ago
  Meth can be neuroprotective at low doses and is available by prescription for ADHD and obesity. Though, I treat my ADHD with dextroamph and I don't think I need to experience meth (I've heard it is more prone to addiction).
  - _superposition_ 2mo ago
    Vast majority of illicit adhd/Adderall on the street is actually just lower dosed meth. You probably would never know the difference, and many people don't.
    - LoganDark 2mo ago
      I get mine from the pharmacy. A lot of sold-as pure isomers are also simply racemic. People often won't notice that either (due to placebo and other factors), but they won't be getting the full benefit they wanted. There are outliers like myself of course that cannot have levoamphetamine, it completely disables me. I do not know why and I don't really care to find out. The one and only time I took regular adderall, I had to sleep it off.
bregma 2mo ago
So does social media. Keep scrolling man, just one more hit.
nick__m 2mo ago
Caffeine is beneficial; it's not just a feeling. It has a neuroprotective effect shown in animal model of ALZ and a statistically significant effect in humans that decaffeinated beverages don't provide. https://www.mdpi.com/1420-3049/27/12/3737 https://www.mdpi.com/1420-3049/27/12/3737 https://www.health.harvard.edu/diet-and-nutrition/harvard-study-a-couple-of-daily-cups-of-coffee-or-tea-linked-to-lower-dementia-risk https://www.health.harvard.edu/diet-and-nutrition/harvard-st...

dns_snek 2mo ago

> People and their sociocultural biases No, intent matters. If you drugged someone with caffeine (or someone drank it not knowing what it was) then their symptoms would also be called ill effects.

embedding-shape 2mo ago

> I am yet to hear people call caffeine effects "ill effects". People and their sociocultural biases, uh? Coffee has well known ill-effects, I think every coffee drinker at one point have drank too much and felt them themselves. Apparently such a big topic that it isn't just a section of the Caffeine page, it has it's very own Wikipedia page! https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caffeine_toxicity https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caffeine_toxicity

blks 2mo ago

Unknowingly taking psychedelic substances is nothing positive, however positive outlook you may have on them.

vintermann 2mo ago

There are a lot of people with a cultural bias toward hallucinations, who want really hard to get high off anything that could allegedly make them high. But despite that, this mushroom is not a popular recreational drug. Much like amanita muscaria, which certain people insist must be great if used right, is common as dirt, and yet is so unpopular as a drug that it isn't even restricted. By these same accounts, you'll get sick. It's unpleasant. Not even the most enthusiastic "psychonauts" seem to manage to take joy in this thing, little people or not.

microtherion 2mo ago
That does not seem to stop people from taking Ayahuasca, which seems to very commonly make people sick.
- ImPostingOnHN 2mo ago
  It stops the uncountably large majority of people from doing it. Like more then 99.9% of people.
  - bossyTeacher 2mo ago
    > It stops the uncountably large majority of people from doing it. Like more then 99.9% of people. Most people don't even know about it or have the means to access it as its either not available or not legal in their jurisdiction so not accurate. About 45% of the adults drink. How much lower would that percentage be if alcohol was little known and subjected to the same regulations psychedelics are under?
    - vintermann 2mo ago
      That it's not legal in their jurisdiction doesn't stop other drugs. Hallucinogenic drugs just don't catch on. They have periodic fads, but even then they're a fringe phenomenon compared to other illegal drugs. It's the best argument to legalize them if you ask me. It's clearly a self-limiting problem - I think it's simply because of unpleasant experiences, but I suppose it's also possible that the life-changing experiences make them not need the drugs anymore.

dpoloncsak 2mo ago

Not sure if it's the same here, but I've been told your usual 'trip' off psilocybin bearing mushrooms is really just a form of food-poisoning

pjerem 2mo ago
You should read a little about it and I think you would change your mind. The adverse effects of psilocybin are well known and documented and we know for sure that it’s not physically dangerous. For the trip part we mostly know how it work and how interact and it can be healing (or bad trip depending on the context). Still you may have have digestive adverse effects, not because of poisoning but because the human gut cannot digest crude mushrooms. But you will not be physically sick per se like you would be with a bacteria or a toxin, your immune system will not fight anything.
- dpoloncsak 2mo ago
  Oh, I've done more than my fair share of substances across the hallucinogen class, with a preference for Shrooms or LSD I just was under the impression that from a 'medical(?)' point of view, the trip is nothing more than food poisoning
  - kadoban 2mo ago
    That's probably based on some specific definition of food poisoning where you get effects from the food. It's semantics rather than saying anything useful about what's going on.

breezybottom 2mo ago

What's funny about that? If people started hallucinating from coffee that would be considered an ill effect.

ImPostingOnHN 2mo ago

If you're basing your perception of sociocultural biases on what you (1 person) have seen or not seen, you may be speaking to your own biases, rather than others' To wit: multiple people here have definitely heard the thing you have yet to hear.

diydsp 2mo ago

[flagged]

mrguyorama 2mo ago

Some ADHD stimulant medications quite literally boost your mood. A literal anti-depression pill. This function is listed as a side effect of being on these meds. Which is true, it's not being used to treat depression, though is often being used to treat people with depression and treat the root cause of that depression. It just also happens to "perk" you up.

tsol 2mo ago

Not all hallucinations are pleasant. Magic mushrooms are known to be pleasurable for many people, but I've heard these mushrooms are not very fun and can last days. Given these effects have been known for a long time there could be a good reason it never caught on