4 ms·

But they're not supposed to be here in the first place? Like any other system, the purpose is what the system actually does. Especially a system that's been ar

But they're not supposed to be here in the first place? Like any other system, the purpose is what the system actually does. Especially a system that's been around for decades. We let them in, so they can work our fields and process our meat and whatever else. We shouldn't be surprised they want to buy cars, own business, and do other completely normal things.

bulbar 2mo ago
I mean it makes sense. Let them come and work illegally, which is much cheaper and enables proper exploitation and then blame them for all kind of things and frame them as the bad guys that exploit the society.
- soco 2mo ago
  I see lots of finger pointing at the workers without permits, but zero, and I mean really ZERO finger pointing at their employers. So basically it's totally fine and dandy to exploit poor people, but a crime to be poor people. All the rest is technicalities. In Europe it's the other way around: the businesses employing folks with no right to work get fined to death, with no direct repercussions on the workers (except they lose that income, which is another discussion)
  - tadfisher 2mo ago
    Oh, there is such a rich history of exploiting the underprivileged in the US. The more interesting bits lately center around a special visa for agricultural migrant workers, called the H2-A, which offers some basic worker protections (a minimum wage indexed to inflation, freedom to leave the farm, etc) so the employers can continue to pay low wages for long hours, keeping food prices low and profits high. Except the farm businesses complained, and the Trump Department of Labor rolled back a bunch of the protections. For example, apparently a sticking point was the requirement that vehicles transporting visa holders have seatbelts for all occupants, so that was eliminated. Another was the requirement that workers be allowed to have guests visit them on employer-provided housing; an often-cited example is worship services provided by a priest. Also rolled back, too onerous. This is all being stressed at historically high levels as immigration crackdowns continue. Essentially, food production in border states is increasingly forced to go through this visa program that has terrible oversight and protections that I consider below-par. It's not a sexy issue to yell about with a megaphone though.
gruez 2mo ago
>Like any other system, the purpose is what the system actually does. Especially a system that's been around for decades. See: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=49260422 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=49260422 >We let them in, so they can work our fields and process our meat and whatever else. We shouldn't be surprised they want to buy cars, own business, and do other completely normal things. So if the city/state/federal government lets a drug addict/dealer population to exist for too long (despite their best efforts at cracking down), they'll eventually get grandfathered in, and we can't enforce anti-money laundering regulations or dismantle their crack dens?
- alistairSH 2mo ago
  The GOP has used immigration as a drum to beat since I became politically aware back in the Bill Clinton days. They've had numerous chances since then to fix immigration in one way or another, but they have not done so. They make a lot of noise. They build a few miles of fence. But, mostly they keep the system the same. Because they NEED that drum to beat. Not remotely the same thing as Ukraine's army being stuck in a war they cannot win. Or whatever other not-quite-apt comparisons you want to make.
  - gruez 2mo ago
    >Not remotely the same thing as Ukraine's army being stuck in a war they cannot win. Or whatever other not-quite-apt comparisons you want to make. Did you get to comparison #3? >The purpose of the British government is to propose a controversial new sentencing policy, stand firm in the face of protests for a while, then cave in after slightly larger protests and agree not to pass the policy after all. >... >The purpose of the British government is to govern Britain. But different British people disagree on how they should be governed, and sometimes one or another faction gets more power, so the government sometimes flip-flops about what it wants. More to the point, the point isn't that POSWID is always false, it's that you can't use it as a thought terminating cliche in place of an actual argument.
    - alistairSH 2mo ago

bulbar 2mo ago

I mean it makes sense. Let them come and work illegally, which is much cheaper and enables proper exploitation and then blame them for all kind of things and frame them as the bad guys that exploit the society.

soco 2mo ago
I see lots of finger pointing at the workers without permits, but zero, and I mean really ZERO finger pointing at their employers. So basically it's totally fine and dandy to exploit poor people, but a crime to be poor people. All the rest is technicalities. In Europe it's the other way around: the businesses employing folks with no right to work get fined to death, with no direct repercussions on the workers (except they lose that income, which is another discussion)
- tadfisher 2mo ago
  Oh, there is such a rich history of exploiting the underprivileged in the US. The more interesting bits lately center around a special visa for agricultural migrant workers, called the H2-A, which offers some basic worker protections (a minimum wage indexed to inflation, freedom to leave the farm, etc) so the employers can continue to pay low wages for long hours, keeping food prices low and profits high. Except the farm businesses complained, and the Trump Department of Labor rolled back a bunch of the protections. For example, apparently a sticking point was the requirement that vehicles transporting visa holders have seatbelts for all occupants, so that was eliminated. Another was the requirement that workers be allowed to have guests visit them on employer-provided housing; an often-cited example is worship services provided by a priest. Also rolled back, too onerous. This is all being stressed at historically high levels as immigration crackdowns continue. Essentially, food production in border states is increasingly forced to go through this visa program that has terrible oversight and protections that I consider below-par. It's not a sexy issue to yell about with a megaphone though.

gruez 2mo ago

>Like any other system, the purpose is what the system actually does. Especially a system that's been around for decades. See: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=49260422 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=49260422 >We let them in, so they can work our fields and process our meat and whatever else. We shouldn't be surprised they want to buy cars, own business, and do other completely normal things. So if the city/state/federal government lets a drug addict/dealer population to exist for too long (despite their best efforts at cracking down), they'll eventually get grandfathered in, and we can't enforce anti-money laundering regulations or dismantle their crack dens?

alistairSH 2mo ago
The GOP has used immigration as a drum to beat since I became politically aware back in the Bill Clinton days. They've had numerous chances since then to fix immigration in one way or another, but they have not done so. They make a lot of noise. They build a few miles of fence. But, mostly they keep the system the same. Because they NEED that drum to beat. Not remotely the same thing as Ukraine's army being stuck in a war they cannot win. Or whatever other not-quite-apt comparisons you want to make.
- gruez 2mo ago
  >Not remotely the same thing as Ukraine's army being stuck in a war they cannot win. Or whatever other not-quite-apt comparisons you want to make. Did you get to comparison #3? >The purpose of the British government is to propose a controversial new sentencing policy, stand firm in the face of protests for a while, then cave in after slightly larger protests and agree not to pass the policy after all. >... >The purpose of the British government is to govern Britain. But different British people disagree on how they should be governed, and sometimes one or another faction gets more power, so the government sometimes flip-flops about what it wants. More to the point, the point isn't that POSWID is always false, it's that you can't use it as a thought terminating cliche in place of an actual argument.
  - alistairSH 2mo ago