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I read up recently on the history of the fall of the roman empire and it was fascinating how eerily similar it was to the current state of the US. Overwhelmed b
by zmmmmm 2mo ago
I read up recently on the history of the fall of the roman empire and it was fascinating how eerily similar it was to the current state of the US. Overwhelmed by corruption and wars they make stupider and stupider decisions on ever larger scales, ever more frequently. And the population grows ever more cynical, eventually opting for authoritarianism before eventually the center can't hold any more and it all collapses in on itself.
Funnily enough, the most striking part was the pure stupidity of a lot of it - seems so strange, but every day it seems I hear another really stupid story and think ... huh, maybe it really can be like that.
- bakies 2mo agoOlder generation has lead poisoning from all the leaded gasoline burned
- runarberg 2mo agoI hate this theory. It is extremely condescending, offers nothing, has no proof, but sounds plausible enough that many people believe it. It is much more likely that our economic system rewards hostile behavior and that money has outsized influence in politics and a criminal justice system which lets rich people get away with crimes. That money correlates more with hostile behavior then lead, Instead of blaming lead, blame capitalism. Just think about all the people who put lead in the gasoline in the first place, did they go to prison for their crimes, or did they make a bunch of money and retire in luxury.
- graceful6800 2mo agoIt's spelled lead, and it has been proven beyond a shadow of a doubt to cause brain damage. There is no safe level of lead exposure, it causes neurological damage at any level of exposure and it stays in your body permanently. You're wrong on every count and simply spreading disinformation. Please don't do that.
- runarberg 2mo agoI never claimed lead does not cause damage, it does. I dispute it is the primary fault in bad politics, and I offered an alternative theory.
- DangitBobby 2mo agoIt's probably more than one thing but it would be shocking if the lead had no impact.
- runarberg 2mo agoSeeing how much influence money has, I think that impact is negligible.
- stevemk14ebr 2mo agoPerhaps you just dislike facts then
- Forgeties79 2mo agoI think we all understood the comment implied it’s been a factor, not THE driver. I’d be a little more generous in your interpretation of their comment, even if it is a bit flippant.
- 1dontknow_ 2mo agoWow I never knew about this theory! But I like your comment because ... idk, if its true at least its as simple as "Lets avoid that, and we ensure each Empire of today exists forever." I wish that was true! So how can we be sure, as somewhat smart people, that this is true and responsibly communicate it? Because everything else is dishonest and hurts our society. Im no history expert but I know there were other Empires thru different times and sizes and places, and since now they're not the same, they "Failed"? Did they fail exactly due to the same problem or others? Are we treating those too? What is our method and how strong did we criticize it and see and understand it flaws? At a time with fake news, AI slop and whatever the Internet has become today, its our job to treat every statement with the highest from of critical thinking at our disposal.
- sinfulprogeny 2mo agohttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_lead_poisoning_theory https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_lead_poisoning_theory Funny you should say that
- delecti 2mo agoThe concerning part is that peak lead exposure was with Gen X. We're still being led by boomers and silent generation. So any contribution from lead stands to get worse before it gets better.
- owebmaster 2mo agoThe younger generation is way less cognitively developed, to use a bland term. What we find find next, that lead was actually good?
- delecti 2mo agoIt's entirely possible that things don't get better (or continue to get worse) for reasons unrelated to lead. The addition of the internet is way too big of a confounding factor to say that lead was actually good though, IMO it's more likely that we haven't learned how to parent children in the modern world yet (though arguably that has always been true). And "cognitively [un]developed" is a weird way to say it; I wouldn't call that a "bland" term at all.
- hamdingers 2mo ago> The younger generation is way less cognitively developed Interesting premise, do you have a source to back it up? Edit: or is this a creative way to say "younger" that sailed over my head on first read
- pennomi 2mo agoThe US sure seems to be speedrunning the collapse though.
- pydry 2mo agoThe collapse did take about 1,000 years.
- fuzzfactor 2mo agoThat's what I was thinking. >Never attribute to stupidity what can be attributed to self-interest. ¿Por Qué No Los Dos? Really seems to speed up the process more so than I've seen since the Nixon malfeasance.
- zmmmmm 2mo agodefinitely But then it's also true the real arc of these things is only properly visible in retrospect. For example I'm sure historians looking back would include the Iraq war as one of the data points on stupidity even though in the moment, people would feel it is totally disconnected from current circumstances. So we are still talking decades.
- whack 2mo agoNever attribute to stupidity what can be attributed to self-interest. It sure looks stupid when you look at America or the Roman Empire as a whole. But when you look at the specific individuals doing these "stupid" things, and the individuals enabling them, it is perfectly aligned with their own best interests.
- segmondy 2mo agoand your point?
- DrDeadCrash 2mo agoperhaps their point is 'cui bono'
- thaumaturgy 2mo agoIt's almost as if acting solely in one's own self-interest is stupid.
- redman25 2mo agoMore like acting without a sense of civic duty is stupid. Or acting without a basis in evidence is stupid.
- pessimizer 2mo agoThose that acted in their own self-interest thrived, and others died.
- Danox 2mo agoIt’s the lack of coherent leadership at the top, the lawyers, junk bond, equity bankers, oil-men, and the military have had their chance, it’s time for the engineers, science, medical, builders, local bankers and internal infrastructure people to run things. And when I say run things I mean, stop accepting their word as the truth.
- 2mo ago
- AnonymousPlanet 2mo agoWhere did you read up on it? Any good sources you can recommend?
- frm88 2mo agoNot OP. The Storm before the Storm, Mike Duncan.
- gadders 2mo ago[flagged]
- wookmaster 2mo agoIt seems like checks and balances are collapsing so the corruption gets worse, just selling out nature, our health more and more for personal gain until something breaks.
- wolttam 2mo agoIt feels like the rate of stupid we have achieved in the last (checks watch) ~18 months has surely eclipsed anything that may have occurred during the roman empire. By sheer volume alone?
- raphinou 2mo agoWas it a book you read? In interested.
- hnra 2mo agoNot OP but the book ”The storm before the storm” covers what sets in motion the fall of the republic. I think the foreword or opening chapter notes the similarities with the state of the US (Trumps first presidency at the time of writing). The author is the podcast host of ”History of Rome”, which is also great, and he does the audiobook narration perfectly.
- frm88 2mo agoHe's also the podcast host and narrator of Revolutions, a deep dive into major revolutions starting in Britain with Charles Stuart and ending with Stalin (well, technically ending with a science fiction revolution on Mars), with stops in Haiti, Mexico, France, Germany. It ran weekly from 2013 to 2025. Absolutely recommend.
- zmmmmm 2mo agoI started with the Lex Fridman podcast [0] and then I went from there exploring further with reading mostly online material interweaved with discussions with ChatGPT. It is actually a fascinating way to read about history. Admittedly, it is hardly a way to gain a proper comprehensive understanding. I didn't think this comment would get so many replies! [0] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pv1TUJSEM2k https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pv1TUJSEM2k
- 1dontknow_ 2mo agoI like these comparison with Roman Empire but it seems too simplsitic and Ive learned that usually means "its not so right actually". Meaning for example, what about empires that actually survived or adapted? What did they do that we know exactly didnt the Roman Empire do that saved them? How does zeitgeist impact this in the sense that what ruined Roman Empire might save a nation today? Not trying to be negative, Im jsut geniunley curios because then if I was in government, Id be "yeah I see the same. I mscared as fuck were messing it up, but then what should we do?" because you see, everybody is giving at advice with very diverse and extreme ideas on what should happen. Probably with most of them you and I wouldnt be OK with (do Dictatorships work? ...). Or simpler, we all agree on the problem. What are all the solutions and how do we know theyre the correct ones? Thats what Im thinking about the last years.
- pavlov 2mo ago"what about empires that actually survived or adapted" — which ones exactly? Empires are pathological developments of nations. They don't tend to survive all that long.
- arethuza 2mo agoDidn't the Roman Empire last nearly 1,500 years in one form or another?
- amanaplanacanal 2mo agoIf you count the eastern empire, but most people only think of the western empire.
- pavlov 2mo agoWell, the Holy Roman Empire inherited the name but, as Voltaire said, "was neither holy, nor Roman, nor an empire"... And the Byzantine Empire shrunk greatly after the first few hundred years. Most of its life it was more like a Greek nation that sometimes managed to expand to control parts of the old empire.
- inopinatus 2mo agoThe falcon cannot hear the falconer.
- colechristensen 2mo agoThis is the endgame of encouraging everyone to vote. The theory was representatives would be motivated to address the interests of everyone as a whole. The reality is politicians are motivated to take advantage of the stupid and the fearful in order to gain and exploit power. Republicans are in a personality cult and establishment democrats are stuck in the midpoint between expoliting people the same way and expecting to win because they're "right" and "deserve" victory without the real consent of the people, equally as self interested but worse at it. The quiet racism of establishment democrats might save us by marginalizing muslim democrats -- there are a few of them like Mamdani who aren't allowed in the club and are thus actually thinking for themselves beyond self-interest and the corruption of the establishment. They as a group might save us. If you want someone to blame, target the DNC. In a time of dangerous foolishness they utterly failed to and are continuing to fail to provide an attractive alternative. If you want to help, give money to David Hogg.
- amanaplanacanal 2mo agoBlaming the people who aren't quite as good at politics for the actions of the people who actually won the last election and are fucking this country seems... Insane?
- colechristensen 2mo agoYes. Their whole job is defending the republic and in the easiest to win election they succumbed to the ego of a bumbling old man and failed to lead on anything at all. Those fools couldn't sell bottled water in a desert. You absolutely can blame the goalie for failing to defend the goal.
- amanaplanacanal 2mo agoSounds like blaming the abolitionists for slavery. Or blaming the police for murder since they didn't prevent it. Every terrible thing Trump does is really somebody else's fault.
- pessimizer 2mo ago> I read up recently on the history of the fall of the roman empire > eventually opting for authoritarianism The Roman Empire was always authoritarian. You might be interested in the collapse of the Roman Republic, where the abuse of slaves and farmers for the indulgence of the middle class and elites led to a popular clamoring for the strongman general Julius Caesar to impose justice (through dictatorship) on their "republic" by force, because their republic had never represented the demos.
- dzonga 2mo agowhich book was that ?
- globular-toast 2mo agoAlso the Roman culture towards the end was increasingly concerned with recycling old works and turning them into ever more ridiculous and derivative new works. Sound familiar?
- mbesto 2mo agoAlso, two other characteristics of the fall of roman empire: 1. It struggled to remain "solvent" because it lost taxable provinces relative to the costs of wars, administration, etc. 2. It took years for it to eventually "fall". It didn't just magically disappear overnight.
- IAmGraydon 2mo agoI mean no disrespect, but if you're seeing a deep parallel between the Roman Empire's final days and what's going on in the US today, I would say you need to study Roman history more. It was in deep chaos that most people in the world today can't even imagine. The Empire was relentlessly invaded by tribes like the Visigoths and the Vandals, and they even sacked Rome multiple times in the 400s CE. There was a huge amount of political corruption, and no, I don't mean anything like what's going on in the US. Military leaders and royal guards fought each other for power, leading to frequent civil wars and leaders who didn't last long. No one wanted to join the military and so it had to hire foreign mercenaries who didn't really have any loyalty. The Roman Empire eventually split right in half because a single ruler could not project power over the entire territory. The Western Roman Empire spoke an entirely different language from the Eastern Roman Empire (Latin vs Greek)! I'm sorry, but I keep hearing these comparisons from people who seem to have a very shallow understanding of history and are looking for patterns because they read online that the US is crumbling. Maybe, maybe not, but it is not the same thing or even similar. The differences are far more than the similarities.
- hnra 2mo agoA better parallel is the fall of the republic with the rise of strong men using populism and power to dismantle its form of democracy in favor of authoritarianism.
- Danox 2mo agoThe Romans pretty much had their way (peak) for 300 years. Yes decline was not instantaneous, but no one can complain about having 300 years of relative success/dominance, which they did once they defeated the Carthaginians all the way to about 200 A.D. The Romans pretty much had their way. Their decline happened pretty much in the same way all civilizations end the elite’s participation in defending the empire or their civilization became less and less in short decadence sound familiar? Arguably the Civil War was probably the last war where the largest percentage of the elite actually participated in fighting the war and that percentage has gone down in every war since. The United States from its founding until about 1990 had its way but now the shine appears to be coming off slowly. The way it currently looks 2100 is probably going to have a new number 1.
- Danox 2mo agoYes, Britain pretty much went the same way after World War I, and went into acceleration downward after World War II. The final cap may have been Brexit.
- pjc50 2mo agoThe end is usually considered to have been the Suez crisis; after exiting India, the UK failed to invade a Middle Eastern country in order to control a narrow waterway. If you want parallels to the present. Brexit is a particularly 21st century phenomenon, a failed attempt to retreat to autarky.
- ncr100 2mo agoThat redux of "Rise and Fall of Roman Empire" suggests a policy shift, and a media shift, for USA and globally. * Smart Decisions can be celebrated * Stupid Decisions can be "5-whys" root-cause analyzed Shaming, and all that, can be left aside. And instead focusing on the possible Wins. A success-oriented approach, of applauding and ranking The Most Smart Policies, could be a way forward. It's innately motivating. Democratic Decline is real. Voter apathy is real. Gaslighting by power-focused politicians is real, and lack of a "service" mindset by those politicians, too. This is compelling stuff, obsessing over doom, and it's demotivating. Celebrating The Most Smart policies is something I enjoy. E.g. on YouTube there is a Good News channel which lists "top 10 good pro-environmental / pro-social actions": - https://www.youtube.com/@itsSamBentley https://www.youtube.com/@itsSamBentley
- nphardon 2mo agoI'm reading two books right now: Stefan Zweig's World of Yesterday and Ulrich Gutmair's First Days of Berlin. The similarities to the current state of US are eerie as hell.
- penguin_booze 2mo ago> make stupider and stupider decisions on ever larger scales They found the right man for it. Cometh the hour, cometh the man.
- c7b 2mo ago> opting for authoritarianism before eventually the center can't hold any more and it all collapses in on itself It all depends on what you define as the collapse of the Roman Empire, but the earliest sensible candidate date would be about four and a half centuries after the population 'opted' for authoritarianism (which wasn't much of a choice for anyone btw). People need to stop making senseless historical comparisons.
- mlindner 2mo agoI think you are over centering on recency rather than reality. The stuff that killed the roman empire went on for centuries.