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Western Sahara
- nephihaha 2mo agoOne of the lesser known criticisms of the recent "Odyssey' film is that parts were shot in the Western Sahara. I believe Emily Wilson herself was critical of this.
- eej71 2mo agoI've never quite understood the nature of this criticism. At best I'd describe it as deeply intellectualized tribalism. But I think I'm being a little too kind.
- Apocryphon 2mo agoIs it any different from Disney being criticized for filming Mulan (2020) in Xinjiang? https://www.pbs.org/newshour/arts/disney-criticized-for-filming-mulan-in-chinas-xinjiang https://www.pbs.org/newshour/arts/disney-criticized-for-film...
- skrebbel 2mo agoI (in good faith) don’t understand what you don’t understand. Western Sahara is basically a colony so if you’re opposed to colonialism it isn’t super weird to be opposed to making a movie in that colony, paying taxes etc to the colonizers and so on, no?
- owebmaster 2mo agoWhy is western Sahara a colony and not California, Puerto Rico, North Ireland, French Guyana, the Falklands?
- skrebbel 2mo agoBecause resources are extracted for the profit of the colonizers and not the locals, who are being suppressed and purposefully supplanted. Seriously man, this is not really very controversial, Morocco isn’t really behaving all that nicely down there. Tell me again how the locals are suppressed and resources stolen from on the Falklands? What are we even talking about, grass and sheep?
- brazukadev 2mo agowhat you described is that rich countries can have colonies because the colonized likes it but poor ones can't. I also forgot to mention Greenland.
- brazukadev 2mo agowhat you described is that rich countries can have colonies because the colonized likes it but poor ones can't. I also forgot to mention Greenland in Europe (sic).
- twister2920 2mo agoAll of those regions are colonies or former colonies. The main difference is that Western Sahara is being actively colonized right now whereas all of those regions were colonized 100+ years ago. Falklands were uninhabited before European settlement btw
- nephihaha 2mo agoMany people do consider those colonies. However, the Falklands/Malvinas had no native population (plot twist: the French were there first). Northern Ireland's position raises questions about Scotland, Wales and the Isle of Man. I think Hawai'i is a better example than California. Hawai'i was a constitutional monarchy, with fully developed law courts etc. California was the fringe of Mexico and the Spanish Empire, and not so well organised. I have heard Puerto Rico described as a colony many times before. But again, I would say there is a better example: American Samoa. As for the French, like the USA, they are pretty much in denial about colonies. There were people in France who considered Algeria an integral part of France right up until the end.
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- culi 2mo agoIt's fascinating. Basically the entire world's phosphate comes from this (it has 70% of the world's proven reserves). No country on earth recognizes Morocco's claims over this Saharawi land. At least they didn't until 2020 when Trump became the first in exchange for Morocco normalizing relations with Israel. The case has been taken to international court multiple times and always ruled against Morocco's claims. Despite basically the whole world recognizing this unjust occupation, neither the Soviets, the US, Europe, nor China cared to do anything and disrupt this crucial aspect of the global fertilizer industry. The only allies the Saharawi had was Algeria. Surprisingly, the best researched documentary I've seen on this came from a Youtuber called Cogito: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-T2ha4a_AuE https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-T2ha4a_AuE EDIT: oh yeah and ofc Kissinger is involved in this :(
- KellyCriterion 2mo agoYou should click on the adjacent link: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phosphorus#Biological_role https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phosphorus#Biological_role https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peak_Phosphor https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peak_Phosphor Phosphor is not renewable/regrowable and recycling is very hard/expensive. In a nutshell: The worlds food completely relies on this molekule.
- foco_tubi 2mo agoIn 2023, Israel formally recognized Moroccan sovereignty over Western Sahara.
- throw-the-towel 2mo agoSpain also supported Moroccan administration, but IDK if they actually recognised it formally.
- RobertoG 2mo agoSpain changed recently its pro-independent Sahara without a reasonable explanation. It totally feels like a betrayal. Many of us think it was because of pressures of the Americans and the Israelis.
- Arubis 2mo agoDakhla is actually pretty tourist-friendly, and spending time there will quickly do away with the notion that nobody lives in Western Sahara. It's well-known for kiteboarding and windsurfing, since it's got pretty consistent wind and surf and a hot-comfortably dry climate. Pretty heavy police presence and you're supporting Moroccan arguable-occupation by heading there, though, so it's a tradeoff.
- Stevvo 2mo agoSilly anchoring is forbidden, could be a great sailing destination.
- TFNA 2mo agoDakhla and environs is also known for hundreds of elderly French, Italians, and Germans who spend winters down there in their camping cars. This was already a very developed scene when I first visited Western Sahara in 2007.
- janpeuker 2mo ago> arguable-occupation very much occupation https://www.freewesternsahara.org/history-of-conflict-press https://www.freewesternsahara.org/history-of-conflict-press
- rockostrich 2mo agoNot sure if this is some kind of Baader-Meinhof phenomenon or if OP just also did the NYT crossword this morning.
- wolfi1 2mo agoBaader-Meinhof? how so? (and yes, I know they were the first generation of the Red Army Faction)
- TonyTrapp 2mo agoFrequency illusion, aka Baader–Meinhof phenomenon: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frequency_illusion https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frequency_illusion
- GolfPopper 2mo agoThank you! I ran into this a ton in college, and still do sometimes with new (to me) authors. I was confident about what was happening, but it's nice to know it's a documented phenomenon.
- wolfi1 2mo agowith llms or even agents I introduce far more attack surfaces
- syoc 2mo agoYou are one of todays lucky 10000! https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frequency_illusion https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frequency_illusion
- wolfi1 2mo agothere is a book in German called 'Der Baader-Meinhof-Komplex", so I was a little bit irritated, as someone who knows the history of the RAF
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- tiagod 2mo agoA series of enormous sand walls separate the morocco-occupied region from the sahrawi controlled region. These are one of the largest minefields in the world. It's impressive to look at satellite images of this. Just a huge sand wall, with hundreds and hundreds of military outposts. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moroccan_Western_Sahara_wall https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moroccan_Western_Sahara_wall https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Western_sahara_walls_moroccan_map-en.svg https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Western_sahara_walls_moro...
- TFNA 2mo agoIn spite of the craziness of the Berm, the funny thing is that the vast majority of foreign travelers passing through have never heard of it. It is out of sight of the Moroccan highway, and obviously something locals won't be talking about.
- tiagod 2mo agoYeah, I did a road trip through Morocco a few years ago (but not Western Sahara), and I only recently found out about this. It's incredible how many insane mega-projects exist around the world that are pretty much unknown to most people.
- adolph 2mo agoIt is interesting that Western Sahara never developed piracy enterprises similar to Somalia. Is it some combination of: * stronger government control from Morocco than Somalia has had internally * little indigenous sea-faring populations outside of controllable cities * sea lanes with less hospitable currents * something else?
- arjie 2mo agoI think you have it, especially with the first, but also I couldn't find very much coastline for Polisario-controlled territory here https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Western_Sahara#/media/File:Western_sahara_walls_moroccan_map-en.svg https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Western_Sahara#/media/File:Wes... And of course there's the background indirect issue where the world's largest navy is stationed half on the same ocean.
- BurningFrog 2mo agoOne theory is that the shipping lanes there are not forced to go near the coast. Another is that Somalis are extra prone to piracy.
- nephihaha 2mo agoPiracy used to be common in North Africa, but more along the Mediterranean Coast where there is far more shipping. The Red Sea is also a choke point.
- sbt 2mo agoSee also: Morroccan Donald Trump Highway
- coshi_dz 2mo agowho submited this to hacker news doesnt seem like a fiting spot
- dieselgate 2mo agoPer HN Guidelines post "anything that gratifies one's intellectual curiosity." I learned quite a lot in just the first 10 seconds of looking at the wiki. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
- Apocryphon 2mo agoTheir lack of sovereignty is blocking the .eh TLD from being realized: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.eh https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.eh
- ShadowOfThePit 2mo agoCanadians would celebrate en masse, were that to become a thing, eh?
- glitchcrab 2mo agoI had never heard of Western Sahara, nor did I know about Morocco's involvement even though I've visited Morocco several times. So I found this very interesting and I learnt something new. Seems to fit here quite well to me.
- nephihaha 2mo agoJust wait til you hear about the West Papua/Irian Jaya conflict. 100K dead and counting. Barely on news anywhere.
- Klonoar 2mo agoThis site has like 5 articles about Japan that hit the front page a day. If that shit is allowed then I don’t see why this wouldn’t be.
- officialchicken 2mo ago[flagged]
- smithmayowa 2mo agoOr maybe yc lost a step?
- zombittack 2mo agomrcodydahler just did a video on this! https://www.tiktok.com/@mrcodydahler/video/7670197795537571094 https://www.tiktok.com/@mrcodydahler/video/76701977955375710...
- petre 2mo agoPossibly related and explains Western support for Morocco. https://www.ynetnews.com/opinions-analysis/article/byrfqojbze https://www.ynetnews.com/opinions-analysis/article/byrfqojbz...
- thestu 2mo agoSkeletons on the Zahara is a fantastic book related to this part of the world -- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skeletons_on_the_Zahara https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skeletons_on_the_Zahara
- testing22321 2mo agoI drove through, and the map on vehicle showed it as a separate country. Many, many people warned me the military in Morocco would be pissed and likely not let me in. They seriously do not want people talking about it being a separate country, or occupied or anything like that. I cut that corner off the map before I went into Morocco, and at more than one checkpoint they looked at it super carefully.
- timinou 2mo agoA couple of misconceptions about Western Sahara I've seen pop up over the past few days: - most (90%) of Morocco's phosphate mining is done in non-disputed territories (it's mentioned in the article). The most disputed resource is actually fish, and to some degree predicted oil reserves. - Tribal allegiances to the Moroccan crown date back from way before colonial times. Today, part of the Sahrawi population supports Morocco and another part supports independence. - There are efforts on both sides to bolster their numbers: Moroccans emigrate to the disputed territories, and Polisario brings in migrants to its refugee camps. That's partly why organising a referendum is almost impossible: no-one agrees on who's allowed to vote. - Morocco and Algeria (/ the Ottomans before Algeria) have been fighting over access to southwards trade for centuries. Geopolitically, the endgame for Algeria is to encircle Morocco. - Polisario itself is quite antidemocratic. Only two leaders in 50 years of existence, and lots of corruption. - Morocco's plan is actually of "advanced autonomy", which would let Sahrawis get their own parliament, amongst other things. - Today, Sahrawis on the Moroccan controlled areas basically enjoy a welfare state with free transport, no VAT, and many other benefits. All in all, it's far from the colonial story we'd reflexively apply onto this situation. I'm biased as I am Moroccan. In my opinion, Morocco is already a deeply multi cultural country, and we need a stable political environment to unite. This conflict keeps the North Africa region one of the least economically integrated areas in the world. It prevents us from building sustainable people power against oligarchic and authoritarian powers, who are at least just as bad on the Algeria/Polisario side as they are on the Moroccan side (Algeria and Polisario are military dictatorship, Morocco is a constitutional monarchy, pick your poison).
- Matl 2mo ago[flagged]
- jvican 2mo ago[flagged]
- f6v 2mo agoIt's always funny how one side always assumes they're right. But from outsider's perspective, both sides always suck (Palestine and Israel, I'm looking at you). So, please, stop with the knee-jerk "It's a propaganda!". You don't bring anything to the discussion.
- 1970-01-01 2mo agoIt is missing the wonderful and still unexplored archeology: https://www.livescience.com/64677-stone-structures-discovered-western-sahara.html https://www.livescience.com/64677-stone-structures-discovere...
- kombine 2mo agohttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Green_March https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Green_March exactly the same thing as what they tried to pull off in Ceuta last week, and with the support of the US. Since the occupation began, Morocco settled hundreds of thousands of its own people. Not surprising that another settler colonial state, Israel, is Morocco's ally.
- applicative 2mo agoAll the North African states are settler colonies. The Arab states expelled their Jews , who predated Arabs and Islam across North Africa
- EdwardDiego 2mo agoDo you have any references for that claim? I wasn't aware that the Berbers, who've been there since the Stone Age, were predated by the Jewish people.
- saidnooneever 2mo agothey are not. you can read things like The Shining Ones which is phd dissertation about how Amazigh settled into Nile delta etc. and along it to gradually form Egypt. Amazigh were the nomads who lived in North Africa in tribal settings, so they didnt have clear borders or nation like we have it now. Once egypt grew to big and arrogant it is also the Amazigh who cut their trade routes to deeper Africa, which caused the decline and fall of that great empire. disclaimer: my spouse is trained by master Amazigh storyteller to be one of first female storytellers. they have fascinating stories. A lot of history and tradition encoded in old contexts. (stories about animals and nature mostly)
- saidnooneever 2mo agoAmazigh are the people of North Africa. Arabs, Jews, Phoenecians, French, etc. etc. all visitors/colonisers. Amazigh has only been officially recognised since 2001 and their language since 2011 because of these other peoples and our genious science who does not recognise oral stories since it is not written -_- (they had to develop an alphabet to get recognised formally, imagine that :')... 6000+ years old. One of the oldest civilizations in existence, predate ancient Egypt. (early dynasties were Amazigh moving to sedentary life etc.) Since jews seem to have spring from ancient Egypt you could say somewhere they have Amazigh roots :D but i suppose they will think differently about it.
- thinkindie 2mo agoI visited the Saharawi refugees camps around 15 years ago or so in the south-west corner of Algeria. They have been living in a limbo for 50 years at this point, but they still feel like they will be able to go back to their land therefore they don't really settle there (they are also in the middle of a desert). Some people gave up on the idea to return to their land (but still feel temporary), others were really frustrated with the fact nothing moved and you could see this frustration at the annual demo in front of the "Muro de la Verguenza", which is the "wall" erected by the Moroccans with landmines and strongholds along the front line.
- gozucito 2mo agoThere is a lot of simplistic, one-sided information in this thread. Truth is it's a complicated matter to decide how long and how strongly one has to hold a piece of territory before it is considered legitimately theirs. And what about language or cultural differences? Does that change things? Should the Canaries be Spanish or African? Catalunya? Basque country? Should Gibraltar be British? Sicily Italian? The list goes on and on. In all these cases you will find people who will hold opposing opinions on this. Moroccans firmly believe Western Sahara to be historically Moroccan. They also believe that Ceuta and Melilla are Moroccan, despite the fact they've been in Iberian hands for 500 years. They are called the colonized cities of Ceuta and Melilla on the TV and Radio. The Moroccans I spoke to believe the government looked the other way to show displeasure at Spain because a Spanish minister visited Algeria to buy gas and oil. Obviously with the Iran war, Algeria's revenues and importance has grown. Morocco and Algeria both view a side gaining influence as a zero-sum: if it's good for Morocco it is bad for Algerian interests and vice versa. Meanwhile if all the north African countries united and built international infrastructure and cooperated like the UAE did, the entire southern Mediterranean coastal region would have been much better off. One thing is clear: This cold war is a total waste of potential and a socioeconomic poison.
- burnt-resistor 2mo agoApropos documentary: Inside Morocco's Secret War for Western Sahara https://youtu.be/-T2ha4a_AuE https://youtu.be/-T2ha4a_AuE