5 ms·

> Speaking of which, a lot of German natives complain and some are even leaving the country (around 100k left last year), but honestly I have visited / lived in

by wuschel 2mo ago

> Speaking of which, a lot of German natives complain and some are even leaving the country (around 100k left last year), but honestly I have visited / lived in nine countries, and people have no idea how good they have it here. The grass is always greener on the other side ... until you actually dare to find out. Having lived and worked in many a country, I second your opinion that it is often about trade offs. Problems will come and go. You have to choose the problem you want to work with. Germany certainly is one of the top countries to live in.

lukan 2mo ago
"The grass is always greener on the other side ... until you actually dare to find out. " Definitely. I hated germany and after school the first thing I did, was to go away as far as possible. Good for getting perspective. There are things that work nicer elsewhere and things were we actually are pretty advanced.
- josephg 2mo ago
  I had the same experience with my own country, Australia. I enjoyed moving to the Bay Area for work, and I treasure the couple years I lived there. But I also really enjoyed moving back to Australia again. I feel like it’s impossible to truly understand your home country unless you’ve spent enough time abroad to see it with fresh eyes.
  - annzabelle 2mo ago
    I think I'm going through the same experience with my home country (USA). It has all kinds of issues that have been discussed at length, and I thought when I left I might be leaving for good, but I think I'm going to be back there in a couple of years. I moved to a beautiful mountain town in New Zealand, and I know I'll treasure the time I spent here for the rest of my life, but I find myself missing America more and more.
- geff82 2mo ago
  I think there are two aspects. First, quite obvious, everyday life and overall infrastructure is really good. It is clean, well maintained in most places. And there are only few countries where all open landscapes are yours to have. Germany is one big park. You have a small garden? No problem, every forest or unfenced meadow is yours to use and to enjoy. The other aspect, which makes people leave, is the direction in which things are going. It feels like things get a little worse every day. Bureaucracy was never easy in Germany, but since Covid, it feels like certain parts of it have mostly stopped working. All that while they add more taxes, more regulation all the time. This is what drives motivated people out.
  - lukan 2mo ago
    "And there are only few countries where all open landscapes are yours to have." Well, I am into wild camping and here germany is definitely not so open. You have to be very well hidden.
    - ninalanyon 2mo ago
      Come to Norway.
      - lukan 2mo ago
        Gladly every time I can manage.
      - cineticdaffodil 2mo ago
        [dead]
ido 2mo ago
My opinion (immigrant for the 2nd time, currently in Germany since 2013- so I've lived in 3 countries when counting my native one): Basically, all rich/"western" countries are pretty decent. Some better than other, but they're all 'ok' or rather they all have plenty of 'ok' options for people able to work at somewhat in-demands fields (despite the financial situation of the last couple years a career in tech or tech adjacent generally still fits that category). If you go somewhere where there's "real" problems, countries like Egypt, India, Ethiopia (altho of course there are nice areas in these countries too) you realize most of the time you'd rather live in any rich country than in a poor country. And there are more people worldwide living in countries ± like India than in countries ± like Germany.
- usuaof 2mo ago
  [flagged]
  - ido 2mo ago
    I disagree with both your points. As an individual you have a very limited ability to change a whole country, and I see his saying as flowery exaggeration to make a point and not racist (he's not saying he's more deserving to be in Germany than Germans, but that he integrated into German society - isn't that what the AfD and their ilk say they want from us immigrants, that we "integrate"?).
  - piva00 2mo ago
    > If you like how a country does things, why not change the country you originate from instead of going to that other country? Because it's neigh impossible for an individual to meaningfully change parts of the culture they dislike which are ingrained for hundreds of years. How am I supposed to change one of the major issues plaguing my home country: corruption? It's ingrained at all levels, from politicians to the police, and people participate in it because it's simply the way it is. By rejecting corruption I just made my life harder at all levels, it took me months longer to fix tax issues because I didn't want to pay someone who knew someone and could have it fixed in a matter of days; registering my car at the time took a whole week of visiting different offices, paying government fees in-person at banks so I could get receipts officially stamped, ordering a plate was a 2-day endeavour, I could have paid a person who would have fixed everything in a day but that involves being part of corruption so I rejected it. I cannot change that, it's part of the culture, it annoyed me to no end, and my individual actions didn't matter at all while making my life harder. It was much better for my life to emigrate, and live at a place where society is fundamentally more aligned to my values and ways of living.
freehorse 2mo ago
There are also circumstances and other factors that may be unknown to you when you move to a new place (your first flatmate, the city you move in, the company etc), or factors you did not choose or had little control of up to some age (the area you grew up, the people around you etc) that can affect one's experience. The article's author also talks about that. A person who moved to ostwestfalen or in a small town in eastern germany will probably not have the same experience as a person moving to hamburg (no offence to any of these places). A person moving as an intern to a relatively international environment will not have the same experience as a person who moves to a 100% german environment. It definitely matters how you act in your environment, but the environment restricts what you can get out of it as experience. Similarly, this applies to moving to any country, but also to where you were born. Imo and ime people who do not get a good experience out of a country (the one they were born in or where they moved) is most of the times not about having unrealistic expectations of other places (they may have, but it is not the point) or they do something wrong, but due to a big chunk of factors and general character/compatibility issues that one has little control over, and may even be unaware of until that point. This holds for the "success stories" as much as the "failed" ones. It is hard to accept sometimes because having little/no control over stuff can be uncomfortable. The experience of different people can be different for things out of each one's control mostly. In any case, getting different experiences in places out of where one was raised can always be helpful and help one grow.
sunshine-o 2mo ago
> The grass is always greener on the other side ... until you actually dare to find out. Yes this is the core problem. The grass used to be very green in the "first world" (North America and Western Europe) but it is now getting dangerously yellow. Instead of asking themselves the hard question why the grass is getting yellow the people in charge try to prove it is fine by bringing cows (it is an image here) from the "the third world", and say look the grass is not getting yellow because those cows like it. This is why you usually see the collapse of the rose-colored glasses effect in third generation of immigrants. So yes the grass can still been seen as relatively green in Germany, but I have regularly traveled there for decades and I can tell you as an external observer the country looks like it is going to hell over time. You get a similar effect with westerners going to East Asia. A lot of them like it very much there wearing rose-colored glasses and can't figure out why the locals believe the future is dark for them.
- lazide 2mo ago
  Uh, I think you’re misunderstanding. 3rd gen immigrants aren’t impressed because they literally have no idea what it is like to live back in the ‘old country’. Go back (to actually live there) and often those 3rd gen immigrants will definitely have a different perspective than they used too. ‘Native’s’ in 1st world countries often just don’t really understand the reality of the situation, and are the ones with the rose colored glasses. Or do you think someone complaining about, say, the UK, will legitimately find things easier in India? Because I’ve lived in Both; and nah dog. The bigger issue here IMO is the fraying social contract and exposure to narcissistic manipulation due to social media and the ‘algorithm’. It’s ragebaiting everyone about everything. Combined with the bill ‘coming due’ for a lot of debt fueled overspending, and population collapse, of course.
mkrd 2mo ago
I am one of those who left. Very happy where I am now. As some say, if you want to see all German stereotypes fulfilled, go to Switzerland!

by wuschel 2mo ago

lukan 2mo ago

"The grass is always greener on the other side ... until you actually dare to find out. " Definitely. I hated germany and after school the first thing I did, was to go away as far as possible. Good for getting perspective. There are things that work nicer elsewhere and things were we actually are pretty advanced.

josephg 2mo ago
I had the same experience with my own country, Australia. I enjoyed moving to the Bay Area for work, and I treasure the couple years I lived there. But I also really enjoyed moving back to Australia again. I feel like it’s impossible to truly understand your home country unless you’ve spent enough time abroad to see it with fresh eyes.
- annzabelle 2mo ago
  I think I'm going through the same experience with my home country (USA). It has all kinds of issues that have been discussed at length, and I thought when I left I might be leaving for good, but I think I'm going to be back there in a couple of years. I moved to a beautiful mountain town in New Zealand, and I know I'll treasure the time I spent here for the rest of my life, but I find myself missing America more and more.
geff82 2mo ago
I think there are two aspects. First, quite obvious, everyday life and overall infrastructure is really good. It is clean, well maintained in most places. And there are only few countries where all open landscapes are yours to have. Germany is one big park. You have a small garden? No problem, every forest or unfenced meadow is yours to use and to enjoy. The other aspect, which makes people leave, is the direction in which things are going. It feels like things get a little worse every day. Bureaucracy was never easy in Germany, but since Covid, it feels like certain parts of it have mostly stopped working. All that while they add more taxes, more regulation all the time. This is what drives motivated people out.
- lukan 2mo ago
  "And there are only few countries where all open landscapes are yours to have." Well, I am into wild camping and here germany is definitely not so open. You have to be very well hidden.
  - ninalanyon 2mo ago
    Come to Norway.
    - lukan 2mo ago
      Gladly every time I can manage.
    - cineticdaffodil 2mo ago
      [dead]

ido 2mo ago

My opinion (immigrant for the 2nd time, currently in Germany since 2013- so I've lived in 3 countries when counting my native one): Basically, all rich/"western" countries are pretty decent. Some better than other, but they're all 'ok' or rather they all have plenty of 'ok' options for people able to work at somewhat in-demands fields (despite the financial situation of the last couple years a career in tech or tech adjacent generally still fits that category). If you go somewhere where there's "real" problems, countries like Egypt, India, Ethiopia (altho of course there are nice areas in these countries too) you realize most of the time you'd rather live in any rich country than in a poor country. And there are more people worldwide living in countries ± like India than in countries ± like Germany.

usuaof 2mo ago
[flagged]
- ido 2mo ago
  I disagree with both your points. As an individual you have a very limited ability to change a whole country, and I see his saying as flowery exaggeration to make a point and not racist (he's not saying he's more deserving to be in Germany than Germans, but that he integrated into German society - isn't that what the AfD and their ilk say they want from us immigrants, that we "integrate"?).
- piva00 2mo ago
  > If you like how a country does things, why not change the country you originate from instead of going to that other country? Because it's neigh impossible for an individual to meaningfully change parts of the culture they dislike which are ingrained for hundreds of years. How am I supposed to change one of the major issues plaguing my home country: corruption? It's ingrained at all levels, from politicians to the police, and people participate in it because it's simply the way it is. By rejecting corruption I just made my life harder at all levels, it took me months longer to fix tax issues because I didn't want to pay someone who knew someone and could have it fixed in a matter of days; registering my car at the time took a whole week of visiting different offices, paying government fees in-person at banks so I could get receipts officially stamped, ordering a plate was a 2-day endeavour, I could have paid a person who would have fixed everything in a day but that involves being part of corruption so I rejected it. I cannot change that, it's part of the culture, it annoyed me to no end, and my individual actions didn't matter at all while making my life harder. It was much better for my life to emigrate, and live at a place where society is fundamentally more aligned to my values and ways of living.

freehorse 2mo ago

There are also circumstances and other factors that may be unknown to you when you move to a new place (your first flatmate, the city you move in, the company etc), or factors you did not choose or had little control of up to some age (the area you grew up, the people around you etc) that can affect one's experience. The article's author also talks about that. A person who moved to ostwestfalen or in a small town in eastern germany will probably not have the same experience as a person moving to hamburg (no offence to any of these places). A person moving as an intern to a relatively international environment will not have the same experience as a person who moves to a 100% german environment. It definitely matters how you act in your environment, but the environment restricts what you can get out of it as experience. Similarly, this applies to moving to any country, but also to where you were born. Imo and ime people who do not get a good experience out of a country (the one they were born in or where they moved) is most of the times not about having unrealistic expectations of other places (they may have, but it is not the point) or they do something wrong, but due to a big chunk of factors and general character/compatibility issues that one has little control over, and may even be unaware of until that point. This holds for the "success stories" as much as the "failed" ones. It is hard to accept sometimes because having little/no control over stuff can be uncomfortable. The experience of different people can be different for things out of each one's control mostly. In any case, getting different experiences in places out of where one was raised can always be helpful and help one grow.

sunshine-o 2mo ago

> The grass is always greener on the other side ... until you actually dare to find out. Yes this is the core problem. The grass used to be very green in the "first world" (North America and Western Europe) but it is now getting dangerously yellow. Instead of asking themselves the hard question why the grass is getting yellow the people in charge try to prove it is fine by bringing cows (it is an image here) from the "the third world", and say look the grass is not getting yellow because those cows like it. This is why you usually see the collapse of the rose-colored glasses effect in third generation of immigrants. So yes the grass can still been seen as relatively green in Germany, but I have regularly traveled there for decades and I can tell you as an external observer the country looks like it is going to hell over time. You get a similar effect with westerners going to East Asia. A lot of them like it very much there wearing rose-colored glasses and can't figure out why the locals believe the future is dark for them.

lazide 2mo ago
Uh, I think you’re misunderstanding. 3rd gen immigrants aren’t impressed because they literally have no idea what it is like to live back in the ‘old country’. Go back (to actually live there) and often those 3rd gen immigrants will definitely have a different perspective than they used too. ‘Native’s’ in 1st world countries often just don’t really understand the reality of the situation, and are the ones with the rose colored glasses. Or do you think someone complaining about, say, the UK, will legitimately find things easier in India? Because I’ve lived in Both; and nah dog. The bigger issue here IMO is the fraying social contract and exposure to narcissistic manipulation due to social media and the ‘algorithm’. It’s ragebaiting everyone about everything. Combined with the bill ‘coming due’ for a lot of debt fueled overspending, and population collapse, of course.

mkrd 2mo ago

I am one of those who left. Very happy where I am now. As some say, if you want to see all German stereotypes fulfilled, go to Switzerland!